You argue from assumption, and I don't rightly care if people dissent (that is the whole point of this thread) so what makes you a moron, I can't stress this enough, is you did not read my original post, you assumed what "you" wanted, and you do not comprehend English well.
Stop using fallacies, and just state how you'd like the class improved, changed, or left well-enough-alone.
Opinions are indeed asumptions - take it or leave it. And you -do- care, a lot it seems, by how you're taking this to a personal level with a person that you even know.
I think the class is fine for the current Paragon options. Swordmaster doesn't feel good to synergize with an offtanking spec, so it would be better to wait for further releases. Damage is fine too. Tweaking it to increase single target DPS isn't the way to go because of the huge AoE potential the class already has. By level 50 you're already one-shotting everything anyways.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Opinions are indeed asumptions - take it or leave it. And you -do- care, a lot it seems, by how you're taking this to a personal level with a person that you even know.
I think the class is fine for the current Paragon options. Swordmaster doesn't feel good to synergize with an offtanking spec, so it would be better to wait for further releases. Damage is fine too. Tweaking it to increase single target DPS isn't the way to go because of the huge AoE potential the class already has. By level 50 you're already one-shotting everything anyways.
Clearly when someone responds to a fallacy they obviously "care" enough to correct the stupidity. You on the other hand weren't giving an opinion on the matters of GWF, and instead cherry picked an argument, and red herring-ed the issue into a premise I never stated. Your stupidity is knowing no bounds at this point, and if you want to keep going I am more than happy to point out were you stumble over your own straw men.
Flipping my words to suit your needs is a fallacy. I know english is hard, but try for a second to stop over analyzing, trivializing, and hypertrophying issues that don't exist into this mindless need to defend your opinion instead of moving on and sticking to the topic.
My original post didn't ask for an overwhelming increase to damage over time or burst, what it asked for is in increase to survivability, a minor increase to damage, to make Sprint something more than a niche ability that is substandard compared to roll, teleport, and block, asked for Unstoppable and Determination to be viable in all builds, and to give the class another pass in Feats and Powers because of the underwhelming performances when stacked against other DPS or Tanks.
First and foremost get your assumptions straight, stop arguing from points of ignorance and authority, and simply give your opinion on the current state of affairs. If you want to dissent an opinion then do so, but don't go making stuff up, and believing (like tinker-bell) that it makes it so because you had a thought.
What you don't seem to comprehend is some of the players are arguing from experience, and have more than one class, and want to see everything balanced, the status quot should be challenged, and the practices should evolve into something healthy.
Nothing about the GWF is healthy, but if you think so then move the hell on, as you have nothing to contribute, and bring no counter argumentation other than the following: GWF is fine, everyone only wants a striker class, and my opinion is the correct opinion.
1) AoE attacks deal increased damage to single targets. Basically Executioner's style as a default passive.
2) Allow movement (and sprinting) while using attacks.
Suggestions on how to improve Great Weapon Fighter:
Sprint: increase the stamina gain or decrease the decay, give the GWF frames of invisibility while using sprint (much like a dodge, block, or blink would) and increase the base movement speed (even with the passive Bravery and feat Fast runner the GWF is far too slow). Sprint in its current implementation is outperformed in every instance of movement, and has no beneficial effects such as dodge or block.
Determination: should always build in combat, when struck, and when the GWF is doing damage without the use of passive powers or feats. Determination is used for only one thing: Unstoppable. And as the resource stands it only plays well in factors of Tanking or solo PVE.
Unstoppable: should always provide a base mitigation to damage by 50% when activated, the GWF should be allowed to turn Unstoppable on and off at-will (as long as GWF has determination) and Unstoppable should have its duration increased by 1, 2, or 3 seconds.
Damage: give the GWF an increase to all powers by 10% to 20%--at the very least.
Feats: a pass is needed in regards to GWF feats, as some become redundant, do not work as intended, or simply provide no actual or visible benefit.
Powers: a pass is needed in regards to GWF feats, as some are useless, mediocre, or pigeonhole.
GWF should do a)more dd n splash DOT
b)more HP gain and start game HP
c)Stuns every 3 strikes for limted crowd control
d)Ok some weapon switch up for god sakes-Greatsword, GreatMace, Maul or GreatAxe
e(Wheras GF longsword, battle Axe, Mace or Spear
f)endless stamina for action point spend 1 minute
GF a)Higher Base Ac
b)Crit negate bonus
c)More DPS n Splash DD over time
d)every 3 strikes slows
e)increased attack speed
f)Both fighter class's-need a REVAMP(Redo).
I have been having trouble finding the right class for me, so I've been deleting and remaking in the 1-16 bracket, over and over and over.
GWF is the worst for this bracket. Hands down. No other class is this bad. It almost has to be a bug that we throw out 1/4 to 1/2 the damage of other classes at comparable levels and gearing. Sure Strike's description in the tutorial says it hits every enemy in front of you. The tooltip talks about reduced damage for targets beyond the first. if it DID hit multiple things, I'd be more ok with the low damage. But it does not. I can more readily hit 3 things with a rogue's Dazing Strike than I can hit 2 with Sure Strike.
IMO: It's the low-game that needs fixed mostly. Up until 16 when we get that Cleric Companion and can finally stop chugging potions, certain things really hurt us.
A: Lack of invincibility frames on Sprint. We spend the same amount of resources to dodge as other classes do, given the speed of the drain. Yet get no "dodge" out of it. Reduced stamina drain might help reinforce the idea that we should be running more.
B: Sure Strike. Weakest at-will in the game, and it's supposed to be our bread and butter for 1v1 combat for, what, 25 levels? Lots of potential fixes here. Up the damage or fix the AOE component or something. One idea I had was to have the 4th hit grant a stacking 3% deflection bonus for 2s, up to 3 stacks. Presto. Sure strike, while sucking, now gives you 9% deflection. Not the best
thing in the world, but it helps our 1 on 1.
c: Coupled with the atrocious damage of Sure Strike and our Early Game in general, Destroyer is wasted on us until later. I can rock the best non-legacy weapon I can find, max strength, campfire and full destroyer for a whopping +20% damage on my attacks, but it doesn't matter because 20% of 20 damage is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Karzov hits for 100 with the best armor, when we're doing almost 30. I'd flip Destroyer and Bravery. Bam. Bravery+Surestrike=+20% deflection. Instant 1v1 tanking boost that helps mitigate rapid potion consumption and our overall 1v1 situation. it doesn't make us damage-gods. We're not de-throning rogues. We're not even de-throning undergeared clerics (who can absolutely outdamage us without breaking a sweat). We're just trying to close the gap.
Is it any wonder so many people play Rogue when they have such a fun early-game? Stealth/Lethal will 1-shot non-minions in the Tower District, whereas a GWF is going to have to burn all encounters, unstoppable and at least one potion to kill that same mob.
0
purutzilMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
So much. The biggest need is to make sprint suck less. It is the slowest evade while also lacking invincibility and being clunky to use besides dashing in. Considering how squishy they are without unstoppable, it's a huge problem. Besides that less delay on using abilities would be huge or more damage to make up for how slow they ate. More defence for off tanking wood work well which is more an issue both gf and gwf have. Gif should not be as tanks but at least have a chance to survive w unstoppable for peeling off the healer.
GWF level 60 (Beholder) - The pains of leveling!
Cleric level 5X (Dragon) - Holy goblin so much easier!
GWF isn't a Striker, so I don't see why you insist on turning him into a single-target DPS. Unstoppable isn't his main damage tool, it's a mitigation system that rewards him for staying in prolonged combat by boosting his Action Point gain and with feats, Encounter powers.
His lategame is pretty solid and balance should be only taken in account for level 60.
Only taken into account for lvl 60 ? And what do you do till 60 - let someone else lvl your toon ? Are so many ppl rly only regarding the so called 'endgame' asactual game ? That's BS, we should be having fun along the way not just at the end.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I'm reminded, emil, of cognitive dissonance. Suffering for something generally makes it more valued. Hence, GWF don't have a bad early game. It just takes skills that I don't have.
I've repeatedly had trouble on the GWF 1-16 run, even though I've instinctively followed every point in that "Inconvenient Truth" thread before even reading it. To be certain, there is valuable knowledge in that thread, there are very viable tactics there. But that's not everything a GWF needs to know. Although, in some eyes, that is everything a GWF needs to know and I'm just somehow 'doing it wrong'.
Like, I'm not dodging enough, or something. As though mobs ONLY ever used red attacks, and never plink away at me with ranged weapons. As though Leap has this incredible range that allows me to close any gap and never misses because it initiates from so far away that mobs can't dodge it if it's first in the chain. Or my computer's bad. Or I should have been doing all this content with a friend when no other class needs to. Or I'm being too whiny because it's a beta. Or I have no right to complain because I'm only judging an hour of playtime. Or I have no right to complain because the game doesn't start until level 60. Or I'm being too picky because it's free. Or I should pick a different class and stfu.
Edit: Added Paragraph 2: A compilation of things I've been told about why GWF's weak early game ie completely ok.
Opinions are indeed asumptions - take it or leave it. And you -do- care, a lot it seems, by how you're taking this to a personal level with a person that you even know.
I think the class is fine for the current Paragon options. Swordmaster doesn't feel good to synergize with an offtanking spec, so it would be better to wait for further releases. Damage is fine too. Tweaking it to increase single target DPS isn't the way to go because of the huge AoE potential the class already has. By level 50 you're already one-shotting everything anyways.
I will say that people should not have to wait a long time or be forced to respec into something else since the issues surrounding Sentinel builds are at the fault of the devs. During BW2-3-4 they seemed very concerned about balancing CWs, DC threat (which didn't seem to pan out), and nerfing particular rogue abilities. All good and fine, but they completely ignored the only alternative that GWFs had to DPS specs, despite many times prior saying that the class could draw threat and off-tank adds if specced right. That's simply bad practice and design to release a class with a tree that is effectively broken at this time.
I'm not saying that the GWF is the only class that suffers from this, but it is an issue that will net Cryptic more money when players realize they just aren't viable to a group in the spec they would have preferred. Any new player will make the assumption that at least the core mechanics and feats themselves are sound and safe regardless of how they intend to play. Sadly, that just isn't the case.
Regarding single target DPS, Sure Strike certainly does need a buff. It's effectively a single target at-will in the current state of the game with such poor scaling that you're better off using AOE attacks for single target DPS. Again, this is very misleading to any new player and a terrible design flaw. A GFs cleave hits so much harder and can hit multiple targets, so I'd say that the scaling of Sure Strike certainly does need a look while still balancing it out with the attack speed of the ability.
I will also add that I was certainly not 1 shotting much of anything at level 50. :P Then again, I leveled from 1-60 as a Sentinel and felt that my progress to 60 was relatively fine. At 60 though, the issues are clear as a cloudless day.
| Banners of the Light | Recruitment is open | End Game PvE and PvP |
| Lust | Level 60 Guardian Fighter 15.8k GS|
1. Remove Sprint. This is a stupid mechanic for a heavy plate wearing giant 2H sword weilding fighter.
2. Increase AOE damage by 30%
3. Increase Action Point Regen by 50%
4. Add stacking snare effect to At-Will AOE attacks.
5. Increased Damage mitigation Class Feature while using AOE attacks. Like a 20% reduction in damage taken maybe.
I'm reminded, emil, of cognitive dissonance. Suffering for something generally makes it more valued. Hence, GWF don't have a bad early game. It just takes skills that I don't have.
I've repeatedly had trouble on the GWF 1-16 run, even though I've instinctively followed every point in that "Inconvenient Truth" thread before even reading it. To be certain, there is valuable knowledge in that thread, there are very viable tactics there. But that's not everything a GWF needs to know. Although, in some eyes, that is everything a GWF needs to know and I'm just somehow 'doing it wrong'.
Like, I'm not dodging enough, or something. As though mobs ONLY ever used red attacks, and never plink away at me with ranged weapons. As though Leap has this incredible range that allows me to close any gap and never misses because it initiates from so far away that mobs can't dodge it if it's first in the chain. Or my computer's bad. Or I should have been doing all this content with a friend when no other class needs to. Or I'm being too whiny because it's a beta. Or I have no right to complain because I'm only judging an hour of playtime. Or I have no right to complain because the game doesn't start until level 60. Or I'm being too picky because it's free. Or I should pick a different class and stfu.
Edit: Added Paragraph 2: A compilation of things I've been told about why GWF's weak early game ie completely ok.
Yeah the cognitive dissonance displayed is pretty bad. Reminds me of Stockholm Syndrome.
The real kicker is that the stubborn refusal to realize that if enough people are turned away by the early game play of GWF, it is not good for the game as a whole because that is lost income potential in a F2P game.
PWE and Cryptic are basically financially forced to ensure the game has enough mass appeal, because niche games often do not turn in enough income to warrant continued reinvestment.
Edit: To be more on topic...
Sprint as the stamina ability seems to be a large part of the discrepancy between GWF and every other class; as all the dodge and block abilities allow a very reliable negation of incoming damage. Adjusting sprint to be more useful either defensively or offensively seems to be the best place to start. Then worry about the other stuff after that.
0
warmachine104Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited May 2013
Reaping strike should do similar things as those Ogre swings, at least we could push mobs down from cliffs when we cant dps them :cool:
Wicked strike -> stack slow
Sure strike -> make it slow but high alpha dmg, we are not TR with 2 tiny daggers!
Comments
Opinions are indeed asumptions - take it or leave it. And you -do- care, a lot it seems, by how you're taking this to a personal level with a person that you even know.
I think the class is fine for the current Paragon options. Swordmaster doesn't feel good to synergize with an offtanking spec, so it would be better to wait for further releases. Damage is fine too. Tweaking it to increase single target DPS isn't the way to go because of the huge AoE potential the class already has. By level 50 you're already one-shotting everything anyways.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Clearly when someone responds to a fallacy they obviously "care" enough to correct the stupidity. You on the other hand weren't giving an opinion on the matters of GWF, and instead cherry picked an argument, and red herring-ed the issue into a premise I never stated. Your stupidity is knowing no bounds at this point, and if you want to keep going I am more than happy to point out were you stumble over your own straw men.
Flipping my words to suit your needs is a fallacy. I know english is hard, but try for a second to stop over analyzing, trivializing, and hypertrophying issues that don't exist into this mindless need to defend your opinion instead of moving on and sticking to the topic.
My original post didn't ask for an overwhelming increase to damage over time or burst, what it asked for is in increase to survivability, a minor increase to damage, to make Sprint something more than a niche ability that is substandard compared to roll, teleport, and block, asked for Unstoppable and Determination to be viable in all builds, and to give the class another pass in Feats and Powers because of the underwhelming performances when stacked against other DPS or Tanks.
First and foremost get your assumptions straight, stop arguing from points of ignorance and authority, and simply give your opinion on the current state of affairs. If you want to dissent an opinion then do so, but don't go making stuff up, and believing (like tinker-bell) that it makes it so because you had a thought.
What you don't seem to comprehend is some of the players are arguing from experience, and have more than one class, and want to see everything balanced, the status quot should be challenged, and the practices should evolve into something healthy.
Nothing about the GWF is healthy, but if you think so then move the hell on, as you have nothing to contribute, and bring no counter argumentation other than the following: GWF is fine, everyone only wants a striker class, and my opinion is the correct opinion.
2) Allow movement (and sprinting) while using attacks.
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
GWF should do a)more dd n splash DOT
b)more HP gain and start game HP
c)Stuns every 3 strikes for limted crowd control
d)Ok some weapon switch up for god sakes-Greatsword, GreatMace, Maul or GreatAxe
e(Wheras GF longsword, battle Axe, Mace or Spear
f)endless stamina for action point spend 1 minute
GF a)Higher Base Ac
b)Crit negate bonus
c)More DPS n Splash DD over time
d)every 3 strikes slows
e)increased attack speed
f)Both fighter class's-need a REVAMP(Redo).
GWF is the worst for this bracket. Hands down. No other class is this bad. It almost has to be a bug that we throw out 1/4 to 1/2 the damage of other classes at comparable levels and gearing. Sure Strike's description in the tutorial says it hits every enemy in front of you. The tooltip talks about reduced damage for targets beyond the first. if it DID hit multiple things, I'd be more ok with the low damage. But it does not. I can more readily hit 3 things with a rogue's Dazing Strike than I can hit 2 with Sure Strike.
IMO: It's the low-game that needs fixed mostly. Up until 16 when we get that Cleric Companion and can finally stop chugging potions, certain things really hurt us.
A: Lack of invincibility frames on Sprint. We spend the same amount of resources to dodge as other classes do, given the speed of the drain. Yet get no "dodge" out of it. Reduced stamina drain might help reinforce the idea that we should be running more.
B: Sure Strike. Weakest at-will in the game, and it's supposed to be our bread and butter for 1v1 combat for, what, 25 levels? Lots of potential fixes here. Up the damage or fix the AOE component or something. One idea I had was to have the 4th hit grant a stacking 3% deflection bonus for 2s, up to 3 stacks. Presto. Sure strike, while sucking, now gives you 9% deflection. Not the best
thing in the world, but it helps our 1 on 1.
c: Coupled with the atrocious damage of Sure Strike and our Early Game in general, Destroyer is wasted on us until later. I can rock the best non-legacy weapon I can find, max strength, campfire and full destroyer for a whopping +20% damage on my attacks, but it doesn't matter because 20% of 20 damage is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Karzov hits for 100 with the best armor, when we're doing almost 30. I'd flip Destroyer and Bravery. Bam. Bravery+Surestrike=+20% deflection. Instant 1v1 tanking boost that helps mitigate rapid potion consumption and our overall 1v1 situation. it doesn't make us damage-gods. We're not de-throning rogues. We're not even de-throning undergeared clerics (who can absolutely outdamage us without breaking a sweat). We're just trying to close the gap.
Is it any wonder so many people play Rogue when they have such a fun early-game? Stealth/Lethal will 1-shot non-minions in the Tower District, whereas a GWF is going to have to burn all encounters, unstoppable and at least one potion to kill that same mob.
Cleric level 5X (Dragon) - Holy goblin so much easier!
Only taken into account for lvl 60 ? And what do you do till 60 - let someone else lvl your toon ? Are so many ppl rly only regarding the so called 'endgame' asactual game ? That's BS, we should be having fun along the way not just at the end.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I've repeatedly had trouble on the GWF 1-16 run, even though I've instinctively followed every point in that "Inconvenient Truth" thread before even reading it. To be certain, there is valuable knowledge in that thread, there are very viable tactics there. But that's not everything a GWF needs to know. Although, in some eyes, that is everything a GWF needs to know and I'm just somehow 'doing it wrong'.
Like, I'm not dodging enough, or something. As though mobs ONLY ever used red attacks, and never plink away at me with ranged weapons. As though Leap has this incredible range that allows me to close any gap and never misses because it initiates from so far away that mobs can't dodge it if it's first in the chain. Or my computer's bad. Or I should have been doing all this content with a friend when no other class needs to. Or I'm being too whiny because it's a beta. Or I have no right to complain because I'm only judging an hour of playtime. Or I have no right to complain because the game doesn't start until level 60. Or I'm being too picky because it's free. Or I should pick a different class and stfu.
Edit: Added Paragraph 2: A compilation of things I've been told about why GWF's weak early game ie completely ok.
I will say that people should not have to wait a long time or be forced to respec into something else since the issues surrounding Sentinel builds are at the fault of the devs. During BW2-3-4 they seemed very concerned about balancing CWs, DC threat (which didn't seem to pan out), and nerfing particular rogue abilities. All good and fine, but they completely ignored the only alternative that GWFs had to DPS specs, despite many times prior saying that the class could draw threat and off-tank adds if specced right. That's simply bad practice and design to release a class with a tree that is effectively broken at this time.
I'm not saying that the GWF is the only class that suffers from this, but it is an issue that will net Cryptic more money when players realize they just aren't viable to a group in the spec they would have preferred. Any new player will make the assumption that at least the core mechanics and feats themselves are sound and safe regardless of how they intend to play. Sadly, that just isn't the case.
Regarding single target DPS, Sure Strike certainly does need a buff. It's effectively a single target at-will in the current state of the game with such poor scaling that you're better off using AOE attacks for single target DPS. Again, this is very misleading to any new player and a terrible design flaw. A GFs cleave hits so much harder and can hit multiple targets, so I'd say that the scaling of Sure Strike certainly does need a look while still balancing it out with the attack speed of the ability.
I will also add that I was certainly not 1 shotting much of anything at level 50. :P Then again, I leveled from 1-60 as a Sentinel and felt that my progress to 60 was relatively fine. At 60 though, the issues are clear as a cloudless day.
| Lust | Level 60 Guardian Fighter 15.8k GS|
2. Increase AOE damage by 30%
3. Increase Action Point Regen by 50%
4. Add stacking snare effect to At-Will AOE attacks.
5. Increased Damage mitigation Class Feature while using AOE attacks. Like a 20% reduction in damage taken maybe.
Yeah the cognitive dissonance displayed is pretty bad. Reminds me of Stockholm Syndrome.
The real kicker is that the stubborn refusal to realize that if enough people are turned away by the early game play of GWF, it is not good for the game as a whole because that is lost income potential in a F2P game.
PWE and Cryptic are basically financially forced to ensure the game has enough mass appeal, because niche games often do not turn in enough income to warrant continued reinvestment.
Edit: To be more on topic...
Sprint as the stamina ability seems to be a large part of the discrepancy between GWF and every other class; as all the dodge and block abilities allow a very reliable negation of incoming damage. Adjusting sprint to be more useful either defensively or offensively seems to be the best place to start. Then worry about the other stuff after that.
Wicked strike -> stack slow
Sure strike -> make it slow but high alpha dmg, we are not TR with 2 tiny daggers!