While this issue isn't going to stop me playing my Control Wizard as my main, I do admit to a certain amount of disappointment. While I can understand bosses being more resistant to CC, I think that the current mechanic of nullifying a significant element of a class' play is not a good one. I would have liked to have seen either a stacking mez mechanic, ala City of Heroes, or still allow for the dmg/debuff to continue to apply.
A world to defend
A city to protect
innocents to save
"Why?" They ask "they hate you"
We're heroes it's what we do.
*patiently waiting on Paragon City*
Wouldn't be too hard to have control effects apply some kind of useful debuff to CC immune bosses. Like slow their attack speed or animation speed ect.
seriously, removing a FULL aspect of a class completely which is a core part of the class for it to work in the most importent and "epic" of all fights is directly stupid.
this is equel to removing the ability for clerics to heal, GWF to go into close combat, trickstars to dps, etc etc.... it is simply just a straight out insanely bad choose from the devs side and its made due to the inability to use their brain and come up with a good althernative to allowing perma cc on bosses and as many have mentioned there is a million acceptable althernatives they could have used...
its simply lazy and stupid and its not an acceptable way to go about it.
Completely disagree. I'm not sure how many MMO's you have played, but it is not typical for bosses to be stunnable, rootable or otherwise mezzable.
Think about it, it completely defeats the purpose of the encounter. Sorry you don't like that, but it is a good thing.
I play a control wizard and my damage and debuffing is very solid, and I can help control large fights - like ones with bosses. We are absolutely essential for many fights particularly later on. Play some more of the game, control wizards have a well defined role.
This conerns me...there are ways to balance this, its been done...you do not add a control class then make there primary form of control, useless against the enemies that matter. CoH/V did this well, by making them " resistant " untill you applied enough magnitude of controls that it took hold, it lasted shorter duration but still made it work.
Are numerous ways to do this with out making the controls useless... i intend to use almost nothing but ice spells...for better or worse, i pray to god that i wont end up unable to do certain bosses because of this. case in point... i dont mind that they want some bosses to be resistant BUT one thing that 4e did in D&D was remove alot of the silly resistances and immunities mobs had. It concerns me that cryptic didnt have the insight to figure this out with out making 1 class pointless or semi-pointless.
Completely disagree. I'm not sure how many MMO's you have played, but it is not typical for bosses to be stunnable, rootable or otherwise mezzable.
Think about it, it completely defeats the purpose of the encounter. Sorry you don't like that, but it is a good thing.
I play a control wizard and my damage and debuffing is very solid, and I can help control large fights - like ones with bosses. We are absolutely essential for many fights particularly later on. Play some more of the game, control wizards have a well defined role.
Then stop playing WoW style of mmo's... City of Heroes did this...it worked fine...it worked well... it didnt make the bosses any less hard, just ment that you could stop damage for a few seconds every so often. Seriously this is a D&D game...add in a saving throw system, makes boss have to make saves... something... just pure immunity? thats a lazy way to handle it.
0
gukterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited May 2013
How I understand, and stop me if I'm wrong, but most boss fights have adds spawning, and said adds, are -not- immune to CC from CW:s? Or am I wrong? And controlling -said- Adds would be very, -very- important to the fight? Or I might just be wrong here.
0
toekneeg1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited May 2013
I'm pretty sure bosses should be immune to CC effects.
0
w3est0fn0w3r3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
How I understand, and stop me if I'm wrong, but most boss fights have adds spawning, and said adds, are -not- immune to CC from CW:s? Or am I wrong? And controlling -said- Adds would be very, -very- important to the fight? Or I might just be wrong here.
QTF
As a CW this what I do. I will spam Missiles to charge up my daily and when adds spawn I'll switch over to them and start CC the bigger hitting adds and gathering up the smaller ones for quick AoE dmg... Really never thought that the boss being immune to my CC was odd, saw it happen once and noted it for later and adapted to saving my CC for adds and just spam auto in my down time to get Dailies up... never effected how I play my CW or found a need to swap out my CC for a big boss
How I understand, and stop me if I'm wrong, but most boss fights have adds spawning, and said adds, are -not- immune to CC from CW:s? Or am I wrong? And controlling -said- Adds would be very, -very- important to the fight? Or I might just be wrong here.
EVERY boss has adds spawning. It's more or less the main mechanic of difficulty I've seen in this game, constantly spawning adds, difficulty varies depending on amount of said adds and their relative power. So while my choke spell doesn't do anything against bosses, I still find it useful for the inevitable adds that'll spawn to buy precious seconds. Everything else I use does damage regardless so don't really mind. I do think choke should do damage even if the target is immune to CC however, but meh no big deal.
Indra, boss that is around level 38-40, her fight involves at any given time 2-8 (sometimes more) respawning mini boss adds with extreme health and damage resist and does around 1500-3000 damage a hit. I dont care who you are, but no single Control Wizard can do all that work himself. Since our controls are single target and last around 3 seconds or so.
It's Idris, not Indra. And while it's true that a CW cannot reasonably be expected to solo all the ads in that fight while the rest of the party facerolls on Idris, the important thing to realize is that NOBODY OF ANY CLASS can be expected to do so. Dealing with ads is a part of the team effort required in boss fights. Clerics can't just heal through their damage allowing you to ignore them. Tanks cannot just tank them over in a corner allowing the group to ignore them. They have to be dealt with in a dynamic group-oriented way, but--and here is the crucial part--a CW's CC abilities are EXTREMELY VALUABLE in these situations.
For example, in the fight you are mentioning, there are two zombie hulks and a handful of direhelms and witches.
Your description of the enemies as "mini-bosses" with extreme damage resist and health makes it sound like you were trying to focus down a zombie hulk on your own. Fun fact: these two ads take almost as much killing as Idris herself. But they are extremely slow shamblers. Just repel them off the platform. By the time they get back in the fight, you'll be able to repel them again. So you can deal with them after Idris is dead.
The direhelms and witches represent the bigger threat. But you are able to lock each one down well enough that if you work with a TR or GWF, that individual direhelm/witch can be eliminated quickly and with impunity.
Against the pit fiend in Lair of the Mad Dragon (pulling another example just off the top of my head), it's possible for groups to become overwhelmed by the ads in this fight, but the Control Wizard with no fewer than three area knockbacks (Repel in the TAB slot, Ice Storm, and popping Shield) can single-handedly eliminate them simply by throwing them off the platform.
So yes, CW CC is clutch in many boss fights throughout the game.
And finally, it is worth noting that Control Wizards do not suffer from a lack of damage. If chill effects aren't properly stacking on bosses, then yes, that's an issue, and it should be bugged and dealt with. But specced to deal damage, CW can keep up with TRs and GWFs, not because they deal as much damage per ability, but because their time-on-target is much greater; they deal their damage from a relatively safe standpoint and don't have to close gaps, chase mobs around, or dodge out of splats as often. Against the last boss in Lair of the Mad Dragon, they should be dealing as much or more damage than anyone else in the group because they can deal it at range.
CWs are in a good place--avery good place--both in PvP and in PvE. They bring great utility and damage to dungeon groups, are beastmode in pvp, and solo extremely well. This is a situation where people ought to seek out the strengths of the class and play to them, rather than complain about its shortcomings.
0
kwsapphireMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 671Arc User
How I understand, and stop me if I'm wrong, but most boss fights have adds spawning, and said adds, are -not- immune to CC from CW:s? Or am I wrong? And controlling -said- Adds would be very, -very- important to the fight? Or I might just be wrong here.
You're right, and as a CW I do my best to CC the adds that spawn in boss fights. I still understand the frustration people have if several of their powers are suddenly "useless" when the adds are clear. I love playing my CW, but I see where Hawke is coming from.
0
bellringer01Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited May 2013
Ya, cc immune elites/bosses was an unpleasant surprise, especially when in solo instances
But in skirmish/dungeon I dont mind so much, I still do more dps than pretty much anyone but a well played trickster rogue so it's not like I'm doing nothing. If tons of adds are spawning in I concentrate on keeping them off the cleric/other wizards backs so I'm often kept busy with enemy I CAN cc.
Keep in mind you *****ing about bosses being immune to your cc's are also immune to every other classes cc's. You're not the only class that suffers. Just dps. You're a good class for dps. Would be nice if I could daze every boss but I can't. So you know what you do? CC minions or just dps. Not cry.
Keep in mind you *****ing about bosses being immune to your cc's are also immune to every other classes cc's. You're not the only class that suffers. Just dps. You're a good class for dps. Would be nice if I could daze every boss but I can't. So you know what you do? CC minions or just dps. Not cry.
Thank you for your cool headed constructive criticism.
You are right.. other classes won't have their CCs working either... but their class names do not have the word Control in them heh.
Thank you for your cool headed constructive criticism.
You are right.. other classes won't have their CCs working either... but their class names do not have the word Control in them heh.
Their damage potential is also not governed by being able to control mobs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the concerns in this discussion is that CWs experience a reduction in damage against mobs that can't be CCed, right?
Controllers in City of Heroes eventually got a bonus for dealing damage to a mob that was CCed. Big bosses that couldn't be CCed didn't give this bonus. When players pointed this out, the developers added the damage bonus for bosses who had CC powers on them, even if those CC powers weren't locking them down. I think this is a great compromise.
I would also like to see CC effects have reduced or minor effects on the boss. Can't hold him? Well you can slow him down! Can't push him back 20 feet? Maybe you can push him back 2 feet, or maybe he just drops to one knee for a second.
Again, I'm not mad at the system the way it is now, but I can see ways it could be tweaked to address the concerns people have.
0
epixcomixMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
Then I guess all non-boss encounters with CW's controlling is now considered Cheese to. Some games do alt affects, reduced affects and some have the same affect but it doesn't land every time. They just decided it doesn't work on a boss I reckon. Why does all other classes skills get to work as just another punching bag in front of you?
Your attacks still do damage. EVERY class in the game has scenarios in which they have reduced effectiveness. Be glad that yours is for such a small group.
I would also like to see CC effects have reduced or minor effects on the boss. Can't hold him? Well you can slow him down! Can't push him back 20 feet? Maybe you can push him back 2 feet, or maybe he just drops to one knee for a second.
The problem with this is that in an "action combat" system, even reduced CC can invalidate entire boss mechanics.
For example: last boss, Lair of the Mad Dragon (I leave it to the reader as a mental exercise to figure out what sort of creature this is).
The boss periodically does a big AoE splat around it which does big damage and blows everyone in it back a good distance. And for those who dodge out of it (it takes two consecutive dodge-rolls, too, it's a huge splat), entering back into it before it dissipates will result in taking DoT damage that can bloody well kill you.
Basically, this is the mechanic that prevents a couple of TRs from flanking the boss on either side and grinding it to hamburger effortlessly. But suppose, each time it was about to do this, you just held it for a second. Then the next time, you staggered it a little, or pushed it back. Just interrupted it each time, allowing those two TRs to keep standing in there, making mincemeat of the boss.
Some enemies just aren't meant to be trivialized, and those enemies are CC immune.
Some enemies just aren't meant to be trivialized, and those enemies are CC immune.
Yea the only valid complaint in my opinion is damage reductions due to chill not landing (and stuff like entangling force not doing damage if the target is immune to the choke - but I don't consider that a huge deal as a damage skill it's pretty weak in general). I definitely don't agree with any controls actually working on bosses, you could totally cheese some of them that way even with a greatly reduced impact (such that it's merely an interrupt).
I can't create a topic yet, so I will use this one to ask a question about control wizards. There is a feat that increases the damage of my AoE powers, but there are no indicators in the tooltip that explains if a certain power is an AoE spell or not. Of course a spell like Magic Missiles or Ray of Frost isn't AoE, but what about spells like Entangling Force, Ice Storm, or Arcane Singularity?
I was thinking about rolling a CW but after reading this thread I got discouraged.
I don't want a pew pew arcane mage, I want that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> who takes care of adds and contributes to the boss afterwards.
Now you can do only one role or the other.
After the water vendor mage in WoW here comes the trash cleaner in NW.
This is very untrue. You can both be arcane focused and still have plenty of control. You do not have to rely on chill to control mobs, there are plenty of control abilities that have nothing to do with chill.
This is very untrue. You can both be arcane focused and still have plenty of control. You do not have to rely on chill to control mobs, there are plenty of control abilities that have nothing to do with chill.
I play an arcane, but yes, especially in pvp (only talking PvE bosses though) cold seems to be more effective with the control effects.
But back on topic, having the bosses that are immune, should really have some kind of debuff, or allow for stacking for control. I.E. like was mentioned for City of Heroes... for a LT mob, you could CC one with a controller with one power, sometimes.
For bosses or the stronger LTs, it took so many "stacks" of CC for the control to work. And when it worked it did not work long. But all debuffs worked. For /storm hurricane still worked for an -acc debuff which was awesome. But the big bosses did not get knocked back unless we had 3 or more /Storms on him, even then, he did not move unless we "held" him.
CoH was successful in my mind with managing control effects, both pve and pvp. It should be given a look at by the devs and supervisors in Cryptic.
Disclaimer, my CW is pretty low level, only in 20s so take my opinion for what it is, new guy stuff.
On bosses that can be controlled I''ll hold theem, freeze theem and then knock them and all the trash back when those wear off and I'm ready to start the cycle again.
You can make it so they don't even come near you.
So the bosses who can't be controlled have been the only real challenge so far.
0
kwsapphireMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 671Arc User
So the bosses who can't be controlled have been the only real challenge so far.
It gets much harder in the later game. I didn't find any of the content challenging until my mid-to-late 20s, and it wasn't until my mid-to-late 30s that it started getting really challenging. At L60 even a spawn of 3-4 minions can be a challenging fight. Not that I think it's BAD, mind you, but you absolutely cannot compare the L20 game to the L40/L60 game. Totally different ballparks.
Well, most everyone has encountered a mimic... and how much of a pain that is at any level. Now imagine that mimic and 2 spawns of strong NPCs coming after you at the same time.
That is what Sapph is saying. So you have a lot to look forward to
Now I never said something was impossible.. it is not hard to survive against a boss (more challenging but not impossible when you bring in the adds) but to have a large part of your class features neutered .... maybe nullified is a better word, it makes you feel ... "I should be contributing more to my team in this fight".
Comments
A city to protect
innocents to save
"Why?" They ask "they hate you"
We're heroes it's what we do.
*patiently waiting on Paragon City*
Completely disagree. I'm not sure how many MMO's you have played, but it is not typical for bosses to be stunnable, rootable or otherwise mezzable.
Think about it, it completely defeats the purpose of the encounter. Sorry you don't like that, but it is a good thing.
I play a control wizard and my damage and debuffing is very solid, and I can help control large fights - like ones with bosses. We are absolutely essential for many fights particularly later on. Play some more of the game, control wizards have a well defined role.
Are numerous ways to do this with out making the controls useless... i intend to use almost nothing but ice spells...for better or worse, i pray to god that i wont end up unable to do certain bosses because of this. case in point... i dont mind that they want some bosses to be resistant BUT one thing that 4e did in D&D was remove alot of the silly resistances and immunities mobs had. It concerns me that cryptic didnt have the insight to figure this out with out making 1 class pointless or semi-pointless.
Then stop playing WoW style of mmo's... City of Heroes did this...it worked fine...it worked well... it didnt make the bosses any less hard, just ment that you could stop damage for a few seconds every so often. Seriously this is a D&D game...add in a saving throw system, makes boss have to make saves... something... just pure immunity? thats a lazy way to handle it.
QTF
As a CW this what I do. I will spam Missiles to charge up my daily and when adds spawn I'll switch over to them and start CC the bigger hitting adds and gathering up the smaller ones for quick AoE dmg... Really never thought that the boss being immune to my CC was odd, saw it happen once and noted it for later and adapted to saving my CC for adds and just spam auto in my down time to get Dailies up... never effected how I play my CW or found a need to swap out my CC for a big boss
http://www.romulanstarempire.com/
EVERY boss has adds spawning. It's more or less the main mechanic of difficulty I've seen in this game, constantly spawning adds, difficulty varies depending on amount of said adds and their relative power. So while my choke spell doesn't do anything against bosses, I still find it useful for the inevitable adds that'll spawn to buy precious seconds. Everything else I use does damage regardless so don't really mind. I do think choke should do damage even if the target is immune to CC however, but meh no big deal.
It's Idris, not Indra. And while it's true that a CW cannot reasonably be expected to solo all the ads in that fight while the rest of the party facerolls on Idris, the important thing to realize is that NOBODY OF ANY CLASS can be expected to do so. Dealing with ads is a part of the team effort required in boss fights. Clerics can't just heal through their damage allowing you to ignore them. Tanks cannot just tank them over in a corner allowing the group to ignore them. They have to be dealt with in a dynamic group-oriented way, but--and here is the crucial part--a CW's CC abilities are EXTREMELY VALUABLE in these situations.
For example, in the fight you are mentioning, there are two zombie hulks and a handful of direhelms and witches.
Your description of the enemies as "mini-bosses" with extreme damage resist and health makes it sound like you were trying to focus down a zombie hulk on your own. Fun fact: these two ads take almost as much killing as Idris herself. But they are extremely slow shamblers. Just repel them off the platform. By the time they get back in the fight, you'll be able to repel them again. So you can deal with them after Idris is dead.
The direhelms and witches represent the bigger threat. But you are able to lock each one down well enough that if you work with a TR or GWF, that individual direhelm/witch can be eliminated quickly and with impunity.
Against the pit fiend in Lair of the Mad Dragon (pulling another example just off the top of my head), it's possible for groups to become overwhelmed by the ads in this fight, but the Control Wizard with no fewer than three area knockbacks (Repel in the TAB slot, Ice Storm, and popping Shield) can single-handedly eliminate them simply by throwing them off the platform.
So yes, CW CC is clutch in many boss fights throughout the game.
And finally, it is worth noting that Control Wizards do not suffer from a lack of damage. If chill effects aren't properly stacking on bosses, then yes, that's an issue, and it should be bugged and dealt with. But specced to deal damage, CW can keep up with TRs and GWFs, not because they deal as much damage per ability, but because their time-on-target is much greater; they deal their damage from a relatively safe standpoint and don't have to close gaps, chase mobs around, or dodge out of splats as often. Against the last boss in Lair of the Mad Dragon, they should be dealing as much or more damage than anyone else in the group because they can deal it at range.
CWs are in a good place--avery good place--both in PvP and in PvE. They bring great utility and damage to dungeon groups, are beastmode in pvp, and solo extremely well. This is a situation where people ought to seek out the strengths of the class and play to them, rather than complain about its shortcomings.
You're right, and as a CW I do my best to CC the adds that spawn in boss fights. I still understand the frustration people have if several of their powers are suddenly "useless" when the adds are clear. I love playing my CW, but I see where Hawke is coming from.
But in skirmish/dungeon I dont mind so much, I still do more dps than pretty much anyone but a well played trickster rogue so it's not like I'm doing nothing. If tons of adds are spawning in I concentrate on keeping them off the cleric/other wizards backs so I'm often kept busy with enemy I CAN cc.
Cheers
Thank you for your cool headed constructive criticism.
You are right.. other classes won't have their CCs working either... but their class names do not have the word Control in them heh.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
Their damage potential is also not governed by being able to control mobs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the concerns in this discussion is that CWs experience a reduction in damage against mobs that can't be CCed, right?
Controllers in City of Heroes eventually got a bonus for dealing damage to a mob that was CCed. Big bosses that couldn't be CCed didn't give this bonus. When players pointed this out, the developers added the damage bonus for bosses who had CC powers on them, even if those CC powers weren't locking them down. I think this is a great compromise.
I would also like to see CC effects have reduced or minor effects on the boss. Can't hold him? Well you can slow him down! Can't push him back 20 feet? Maybe you can push him back 2 feet, or maybe he just drops to one knee for a second.
Again, I'm not mad at the system the way it is now, but I can see ways it could be tweaked to address the concerns people have.
Your attacks still do damage. EVERY class in the game has scenarios in which they have reduced effectiveness. Be glad that yours is for such a small group.
The problem with this is that in an "action combat" system, even reduced CC can invalidate entire boss mechanics.
For example: last boss, Lair of the Mad Dragon (I leave it to the reader as a mental exercise to figure out what sort of creature this is).
The boss periodically does a big AoE splat around it which does big damage and blows everyone in it back a good distance. And for those who dodge out of it (it takes two consecutive dodge-rolls, too, it's a huge splat), entering back into it before it dissipates will result in taking DoT damage that can bloody well kill you.
Basically, this is the mechanic that prevents a couple of TRs from flanking the boss on either side and grinding it to hamburger effortlessly. But suppose, each time it was about to do this, you just held it for a second. Then the next time, you staggered it a little, or pushed it back. Just interrupted it each time, allowing those two TRs to keep standing in there, making mincemeat of the boss.
Some enemies just aren't meant to be trivialized, and those enemies are CC immune.
Yea the only valid complaint in my opinion is damage reductions due to chill not landing (and stuff like entangling force not doing damage if the target is immune to the choke - but I don't consider that a huge deal as a damage skill it's pretty weak in general). I definitely don't agree with any controls actually working on bosses, you could totally cheese some of them that way even with a greatly reduced impact (such that it's merely an interrupt).
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
I don't want a pew pew arcane mage, I want that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> who takes care of adds and contributes to the boss afterwards.
Now you can do only one role or the other.
After the water vendor mage in WoW here comes the trash cleaner in NW.
This is very untrue. You can both be arcane focused and still have plenty of control. You do not have to rely on chill to control mobs, there are plenty of control abilities that have nothing to do with chill.
Good to know.
But back on topic, having the bosses that are immune, should really have some kind of debuff, or allow for stacking for control. I.E. like was mentioned for City of Heroes... for a LT mob, you could CC one with a controller with one power, sometimes.
For bosses or the stronger LTs, it took so many "stacks" of CC for the control to work. And when it worked it did not work long. But all debuffs worked. For /storm hurricane still worked for an -acc debuff which was awesome. But the big bosses did not get knocked back unless we had 3 or more /Storms on him, even then, he did not move unless we "held" him.
CoH was successful in my mind with managing control effects, both pve and pvp. It should be given a look at by the devs and supervisors in Cryptic.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
Disclaimer, my CW is pretty low level, only in 20s so take my opinion for what it is, new guy stuff.
On bosses that can be controlled I''ll hold theem, freeze theem and then knock them and all the trash back when those wear off and I'm ready to start the cycle again.
You can make it so they don't even come near you.
So the bosses who can't be controlled have been the only real challenge so far.
It gets much harder in the later game. I didn't find any of the content challenging until my mid-to-late 20s, and it wasn't until my mid-to-late 30s that it started getting really challenging. At L60 even a spawn of 3-4 minions can be a challenging fight. Not that I think it's BAD, mind you, but you absolutely cannot compare the L20 game to the L40/L60 game. Totally different ballparks.
That is what Sapph is saying. So you have a lot to look forward to
Now I never said something was impossible.. it is not hard to survive against a boss (more challenging but not impossible when you bring in the adds) but to have a large part of your class features neutered .... maybe nullified is a better word, it makes you feel ... "I should be contributing more to my team in this fight".
At least that is for me.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?