To sum this up, I really enjoyed this game and I feel it has great potential. Here is the small list of things I feel would make this a more well rounded, enjoyable game:
1. Add larger group content, but make the same rewards available by multiple avenues to accommodate multiple play styles.
2. Open up the maps a bit and make them less linear. Larger maps and less "tunnel" or 'funnel" shaped.
3. In addition to larger group content, provide multiple ways of questing, with options for quest paths instead of everyone having almost identical questing experiences. One single quest should not "block" you from the next "set" of quests.
4. More reward for exploration, as I feel this is a big aspect of D&D as well. Slowing down a bit to explore and discover secrets and so forth may be in itself a specific play style, but for those that choose to play that way, there should be incentive to do so.
Again, all of these points come down to rewarding different play styles and having choice. The explorer, the grinder, the quester, the raider, etc. A game should cater to multiple play styles if it plans on being successful, and within each play style, there should be incentive, equal reward, and multiple avenues of progression.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
To sum this up, I really enjoyed this game and I feel it has great potential. Here is the small list of things I feel would make this a more well rounded, enjoyable game:
1. Add larger group content, but make the same rewards available by multiple avenues to accommodate multiple play styles.
2. Open up the maps a bit and make them less linear. Larger maps and less "tunnel" or 'funnel" shaped.
3. In addition to larger group content, provide multiple ways of questing, with options for quest paths instead of everyone having almost identical questing experiences. One single quest should not "block" you from the next "set" of quests.
4. More reward for exploration, as I feel this is a big aspect of D&D as well. Slowing down a bit to explore and discover secrets and so forth may be in itself a specific play style, but for those that choose to play that way, there should be incentive to do so.
Again, all of these points come down to rewarding different play styles and having choice. The explorer, the grinder, the quester, the raider, etc. A game should cater to multiple play styles if it plans on being successful, and within each play style, there should be incentive, equal reward, and multiple avenues of progression.
Thanks. If you notice, most posts I have made promote this one basic idea, just in different areas. In my experience, it has aided to render games more successful than others.
I started playing Neverwinter Nights on AOL in the early 90s, then moved on to Ultima Online, EQ, and the obvious others after that, and have played every major title worth playing since then. Yes I'm more of a hard core player, but in all my playing experience, it's the games that catered to multiple play styles that seemed to be the most successful and last the longest. And being successful doesn't mean just having the most players, it means developing a solid game with solid systems and a solid player base who continually play and enjoy the game.
It's pretty simple. If a game has limited types of content with limited play styles and caters to limited types of players, it will have a smaller player base and a very specific type of player base. This usually ends up with those people eventually becoming bored with the activities available. What is personally fun to me is being able to stop one type of activity and engage in another type when I so desire. Being able to do this in a more well rounded game, makes for variety and choice, having options, which means you don't get bored as fast and it keeps people in-game longer and more often.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
It's pretty simple. If a game has limited types of content with limited play styles and caters to limited types of players, it will have a smaller player base and a very specific type of player base. This usually ends up with those people eventually becoming bored with the activities available. What is personally fun to me is being able to stop one type of activity and engage in another type when I so desire. Being able to do this in a more well rounded game, makes for variety and choice, having options, which means you don't get bored as fast and it keeps people in-game longer and more often.
I agree. Additionally, I want newer areas to explore all the time, and not to be forced to repeat the same areas/encounters over and over and over to advance. Doing so takes away the sense of adventure and excitement, and I get bored and leave.
Ultimately, I would prefer a world, where I can advance without having to repeat a dungeon/raid and mine exp ad nauseum in a graveyard/orc badlands, etc. Where there are enough new dungeons/adventures, that I can explore each once, just like old PnP games, and still make it to max level and have some cool toys the most powerful characters have. I am hoping with the Forge, that this wil be the case here.
Good points, and I agree for the most part about having to not repeat the same content over and over if such a thing were possible.
But the only reason I disagreed with this one point before was not because it wouldn't be great, but because I just don't think it to be completely realistic, since it would take a ridiculous amount of content to accommodate everyone... having firstly unique experiences and progression paths, secondly different types of content and play styles within those paths, and finally enough content that the thousands of people playing would never need to repeat any part of the content over again?
That would be amazing to say the least, but I simply fear it not possible. The amount of content would almost need to be infinite to allow for that.
But if it were possible, Neverwinter would certainly become the first and only true wow-killer yet developed. I think everyone would be playing this game if such a thing existed.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Good points, and I agree for the most part about having to not repeat the same content over and over if such a thing were possible.
But the only reason I disagreed with this one point before was not because it wouldn't be great, but because I just don't think it to be completely realistic, since it would take a ridiculous amount of content to accommodate everyone... having firstly unique experiences and progression paths, secondly different types of content and play styles within those paths, and finally enough content that the thousands of people playing would never need to repeat any part of the content over again?
That would be amazing to say the least, but I simply fear it not possible. The amount of content would almost need to be infinite to allow for that.
But if it were possible, Neverwinter would certainly become the first and only true wow-killer yet developed. I think everyone would be playing this game if such a thing existed.
That is where we disagree. I do not believe it would require that much content. After all, all those thousands of players would not have to have their own seperate adventure paths, and could complete the same dungeons/adventures as others, just not repeating like MMORPG's have forced them too.
Millions of PnP gamers played the Official D&D modules without repeating, and Living Greyhawk seemed to do a pretty good job of providing new modules for players to play, and restricting them from repeating them.
With the slew of people wishing to make their own adventures with the Forge, the potential for Neverwinter to be the place that you do not have to repeat the dungeon again and again to advance is very likely. Restricting each character (Not Player) to one run through each is not really that out of the reach, if as many approved adventures as I forsee are made.
Raids are not gonna happen and Andy has already spoken on this I believe. I know he said there won't be any raids in the traditional sense. There will be raids in a public area (Gauntletgrym) where multiple groups would need to take down a big boss but instanced raids no. Can't recall if he said it might be something they would consider in the future.
And instanced raids would be a horrible idea though. Not because I dislike em but because the combat mechanics in the game are horrible for it. The healing system and tank system are horrible for an instanced raid encounter. The system will have to be completely reworked for tanking and healing.
This games is similar to GW2 in the regard that raids will be like their big DE fights while challenging content will remain in the party group category. Granted there is no challenge here whatsoever as everything is being facerolled.
Raids are not gonna happen and Andy has already spoken on this I believe. I know he said there won't be any raids in the traditional sense. There will be raids in a public area (Gauntletgrym) where multiple groups would need to take down a big boss but instanced raids no. Can't recall if he said it might be something they would consider in the future.
And instanced raids would be a horrible idea though. Not because I dislike em but because the combat mechanics in the game are horrible for it. The healing system and tank system are horrible for an instanced raid encounter. The system will have to be completely reworked for tanking and healing.
This games is similar to GW2 in the regard that raids will be like their big DE fights while challenging content will remain in the party group category. Granted there is no challenge here whatsoever as everything is being facerolled.
Your opinion and obviously not the opinion shared by the majority of the 250 people who voted on this poll. Again, to just say they "won't work" or that the mechanics aren't built for raids is not saying much. A raid dungeon made for 8-10 people would work much the same as a normal dungeon, just with harder content and with boss fights made for larger groups. Simple. It all has to do with how it's designed. If they design it for the current game mechanics, then it would work. Not sure what makes you think they would not design it that way. lol
Also, you say raids aren't going to happen and make it sound official, but where is your official link? Please provide it if you have one. I believe raids will happen and that it is inevitable if they want people to keep playing, again, as shown by this poll. I don't have an official link on that because that is just my opinion. There was that video though that was posted:
... so it was stated in this video from a game news channel on Youtube/FB/Twitter (Cyan Firefly) that makes lots of game vides, that there will be raids, it's just they don't know yet what kind of raids. But it's at least clear that it will be more than 5 player content. I wish he said where he got his information from, unless I just missed that part.
That is where we disagree. I do not believe it would require that much content. After all, all those thousands of players would not have to have their own seperate adventure paths, and could complete the same dungeons/adventures as others, just not repeating like MMORPG's have forced them too.
Millions of PnP gamers played the Official D&D modules without repeating, and Living Greyhawk seemed to do a pretty good job of providing new modules for players to play, and restricting them from repeating them.
With the slew of people wishing to make their own adventures with the Forge, the potential for Neverwinter to be the place that you do not have to repeat the dungeon again and again to advance is very likely. Restricting each character (Not Player) to one run through each is not really that out of the reach, if as many approved adventures as I forsee are made.
Well, we can only hope you are right. It is a cool idea I must admit. And currently, it is already true with the Foundry. If someone may opt to level only with Foundry content and since there will always be new Foundry content coming from the community, this may yet hold true as far as always having a unique experience goes. Although, you would be forced to level using content that may or may not be quality in the eyes of the community as well.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
Well, we can only hope you are right. It is a cool idea I must admit. And currently, it is already true with the Foundry. If someone may opt to level only with Foundry content and since there will always be new Foundry content coming from the community, this may yet hold true as far as always having a unique experience goes. Although, you would be forced to level using content that may or may not be quality in the eyes of the community as well.
In my 30+ years of PnP games (In 9 states, and 7 foreign countries thanks in part to Uncle Sam's Army), the quality of some of the Adventures/Dungeom Masters left alot to be desired. I think I can live with the occasional poor quality Player made adventures.
But it is true the foundry is very cool indeed. Maybe the answer to the "raid" dungeon thing is simply that, the Foundry. Just allow us to be able to create our own raid dungeons if we so desire. The people who don't want to play them don't have to.
But if the dungeon for example, is large enough, the mobs hard enough or numerous enough, and so on and so forth, the Foundry would let you tick a checkbox that reads "Make this a raid dungeon" which would allow for more than 5 players. Or even have a few choices, such as:
1. 5 Players
2. 8 Players
3. 10 Players
There would naturally be map / dungeon requirements in place that when met, would basically "turn on" the ability to check the various choices for number of players. I certainly don't see how this could hurt anything, especially since doing these raid dungeons would not be mandatory for any reason other than to enjoy the content. Being able to design a much larger dungeon made for 10 people would, IMO be pretty epic and very cool to say the least.
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
But it is true the foundry is very cool indeed. Maybe the answer to the "raid" dungeon thing is simply that, the Foundry. Just allow us to be able to create our own raid dungeons if we so desire. The people who don't want to play them don't have to. But if the dungeon for example, is large enough, the mobs hard enough or numerous enough, and so on and so forth, the Foundry would let you tick a checkbox that read "Make this a raid dungeon" which would allow for more than 5 players. Or even have a few choices, such as:
1. 5 Players
2. 8 Players
3. 10 Players
There would naturally be map / dungeon requirements in place that when met, would basically "turn on" the ability to check the various choices for number of players. I certainly don't see how this could hurt anything, especially since doing these raid dungeons would not be mandatory for any reason other than to enjoy the content.
I could see devising a raid for several 5 character groups at one time to Captture the Flag. Several entrances, all with numerous encounters, traps that disorient and divide the party if not disabled, numerous ability checks to get past obstacles, etc... Wonder if such is possible in Foundry.
I could ask you the same thing. Why ONLY have 5 man dungeons when 76% of all players want content for more? Where is the logic? If you can have both play styles and both types of content with most of the best rewards available via progression in each type of content, why not? A game needs to always cater to multiple play styles.
Because it is D&D and raids are not part of the game culture here. And this poll hardly reflects the real player base. Raids are just a good way to lock casual gamers out of seeing end-game content. How many players in EQ or WoW are raiding on a regular basis ? If you check sites like WoWprogress you will notice that only a tiny percentage of players have completed the end game raids. Raids are hardly something worth investing development hours into, since it only caters to said minority.
Because it is D&D and raids are not part of the game culture here. And this poll hardly reflects the real player base. Raids are just a good way to lock casual gamers out of seeing end-game content. How many players in EQ or WoW are raiding on a regular basis ? If you check sites like WoWprogress you will notice that only a tiny percentage of players have completed the end game raids. Raids are hardly something worth investing development hours into, since it only caters to said minority.
"I don't raid therefore raiding is not important"
Bulletproof logic
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kaiserschmarrnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 390
Because it is D&D and raids are not part of the game culture here. And this poll hardly reflects the real player base. Raids are just a good way to lock casual gamers out of seeing end-game content. How many players in EQ or WoW are raiding on a regular basis ? If you check sites like WoWprogress you will notice that only a tiny percentage of players have completed the end game raids. Raids are hardly something worth investing development hours into, since it only caters to said minority.
Because it is D&D and raids are not part of the game culture here. And this poll hardly reflects the real player base. Raids are just a good way to lock casual gamers out of seeing end-game content. How many players in EQ or WoW are raiding on a regular basis ? If you check sites like WoWprogress you will notice that only a tiny percentage of players have completed the end game raids. Raids are hardly something worth investing development hours into, since it only caters to said minority.
Raids are not "part" of the game? Think about what you are saying. All "raid" means is a larger dungeon. The full term is "raid dungeon" which is just a way to differentiate between a raid for 5 people and a raid for 8, 10, or more people. Where is your logic in saying it's not "D&D" when it only has to do with size, and yes for a lot of people (excluding yourself and a smaller group) size does matter.
This thread reflects statistics. Statistics don't lie. It is a reflection of the entire playbase. It's the same reason why when our government takes surveys and polls and such, they don't literally take the poll from every single U.S. citizen but a small portion of the population because whether it's a smaller portion or not, numbers and statistics still don't lie. The numbers mean that about 7.6 out of 10 people want larger group content. These percentages have remained the same throughout, even when this poll only had 60 voters. That should tell you something. You can't say that people who want larger group content are the minority. This poll proves otherwise no matter how you try to skew the results to your own desires. Numbers simply do not lie.
You don't seem to understand how that works. The voters are a "slice" of the entire player base that reflects the larger majority. If you notice, out of the 261 voters, only 67 want content for 20 or more people, that is the minority and I would guess those are the hard core raider types. 79 people voted to keep it at 5 player content. That would be the next group up. But 135 people voted to have at least content designed for 8-10 players. That my friend is not the minority, that represents the majority of players.
You are reading it wrong. It means "I don't support content less than 5% of the player base will get to see".
And how is simply having dungeons made for 8-10 players making content for a small minority? You are gravely mistaken my friend. Rift is a very popular game for example and they have implemented 10 player raid dungeons and about 80% of all guilds in that game promote the 10 man raids and play them actively. You can see as much in Rift's guild finder when searching for the various kinds of guilds. And being a very well made MMORPG with loads of great content, I'd say that represents the fact that most MMORPG players want and play larger group content such as raid dungeons. Sure this is D&D, but please inform us as to how a dungeon of larger size for a few more players with harder boss fights does not fit into D&D?
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psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
The only purpose of raiding is phat l3wt, no one bothers to raid when it doesn't offer the best gear so its role in the genre is purely exclusionary. Cryptic is also just not good at raids, look at their past games, they do great group content and great solo content but raids are nothing to write home about. If you want raids there is basically /every game ever/ to go to in search of this content, why must every MMO follow this same model just to please those who like the raid/rinse/repeat formula.
On the idea that the vote cast here means anything, I can only hope that OP grasps all the issues of this "survey" and the problems inherent to it. Tiny sample, self-selection, limited options, totally non-random. I get that some people want raids, some people want raids in every MMO ever made, personally I hope that they aren't added.
[edit]
Or that if they are added, they offer no better rewards than any other part of the game.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
The only purpose of raiding is phat l3wt, no one bothers to raid when it doesn't offer the best gear so its role in the genre is purely exclusionary.
I like raids because they're challenging and fun, especially with larger groups. I'll run the raids I like just because I like them, even after I've gotten all the gear I want from it.
The only purpose of raiding is phat l3wt, no one bothers to raid when it doesn't offer the best gear so its role in the genre is purely exclusionary. Cryptic is also just not good at raids, look at their past games, they do great group content and great solo content but raids are nothing to write home about. If you want raids there is basically /every game ever/ to go to in search of this content, why must every MMO follow this same model just to please those who like the raid/rinse/repeat formula.
On the idea that the vote cast here means anything, I can only hope that OP grasps all the issues of this "survey" and the problems inherent to it. Tiny sample, self-selection, limited options, totally non-random. I get that some people want raids, some people want raids in every MMO ever made, personally I hope that they aren't added.
[edit]
Or that if they are added, they offer no better rewards than any other part of the game.
That is just false. Everyone I have raided with (and that is a lot) are people who do it because ITS FUN. Not just for loot. The people who do it just for loot, still do it for a valid reason and if they weren't having fun, they wouldn't do it. That is just a ridiculous argument and it loops back on itself. If they are doing it for the loot, either way, that is their choice and what they WANT to do. If they are doing it because they want to, the devs don't care whether it's for the loot or just for fun, either way, people are playing the game, which is what's important. Also, this game is different from all other cryptic games so that argument doesn't work either. I absolutely abhor all the other cryptic games and really enjoy this one, if that tells you anything. If nothing else, it should tell you that it's very different to say the least.
I would like to see 10 man stuff, definitely. I also wouldnt be opposed to 20 man versions of things either, I still enjoyed the ol ZG days.
Thanks for your input. Yet one more in favor of a play style that IMO should never be excluded from any MMORPG. After all, why exclude a play style simply because a minority does not partake?
By the way, the votes keep going up and the percentages keep saying the same. Not sure how people can keep trying to say we, the 76% are in the minority. It's just the opposite. lol
That is just false. Everyone I have raided with (and that is a lot) are people who do it because ITS FUN. Not just for loot.
I'm glad for you really, but anyone (including me) can make exactly the opposite claim that is just about as valid. For the brief period when a raid becomes "outdated" when it no longer offers the best loot in the game, or loot a cut above what people can find in standard play, how often do players bother with it?
The people who do it just for loot, still do it for a valid reason and if they weren't having fun, they wouldn't do it. That is just a ridiculous argument and it loops back on itself. If they are doing it for the loot, either way, that is their choice and what they WANT to do. If they are doing it because they want to, the devs don't care whether it's for the loot or just for fun, either way, people are playing the game, which is what's important.
The trouble with it is that by offering the best loot in the game solely via raids, this garbage repetitive content becomes the only "legitimate" content in the game. Everything else becomes just a stepping ladder to raiding and essentially it is no longer a "choice" to raid. I don't know how you can make the claim that people wouldn't raid for top end gear if it wasn't "fun" but I disagree emphatically with it. I've done it for years, because one is forced to in order to be "competitive" meaning at "end game" you have no choice but to raid if it is the sole source of the best gear (as it always is required to be if raiders get their way).
By the way, the votes keep going up and the percentages keep saying the same. Not sure how people can keep trying to say we, the 76% are in the minority. It's just the opposite. lol
Forum polls really aren't a representative slice of the "player community". In the past I've seen MMOs actually do their best to collect data that is vaguely representative, it is always done via in game surveys, or at bare minimum an email from the company tied to your player account. The trouble with forum polls is the same as the trouble with forum complaint threads, only people who care enough to bother with the (generally worthless except for venting) forums are going to waste their time to contribute.
I'm glad for you really, but anyone (including me) can make exactly the opposite claim that is just about as valid. For the brief period when a raid becomes "outdated" when it no longer offers the best loot in the game, or loot a cut above what people can find in standard play, how often do players bother with it?
When raids don't offer the best loot it usually means there's an expansion with new raids and better loot. Players obviously would move onto the new raids they have yet to experience, which has more to do with experience than JUST loot. Why wouldn't you know that? Also, as I said before, if players want to do raids just for loot, then why is that bad? The loot is an obvious incentive and the thing they obviously enjoy the most. I find it strange that some people find this so offensive. If it wasn't meant to be enjoyed or if it was somehow "bad" to want loot, then it wouldn't be in the game. But you should not be offended by it either way.
And if new raids are developed and people don't care to go back to the old raids, then why is that a bad thing too? It's just the way it works. People get tired of old content and move onto new. I think if they can always keep people playing by creating new content, more power to them.
The trouble with it is that by offering the best loot in the game solely via raids, this garbage repetitive content becomes the only "legitimate" content in the game.
That is why I suggested several times that I would like to see the same "best loot" attainable by different means, not just raiding. I also agreed with another person a few posts ago, that if it's possible to always have new content and new experience instead of repeating the same content, then great, I'm all for it.
Forum polls really aren't a representative slice of the "player community". In the past I've seen MMOs actually do their best to collect data that is vaguely representative, it is always done via in game surveys, or at bare minimum an email from the company tied to your player account. The trouble with forum polls is the same as the trouble with forum complaint threads, only people who care enough to bother with the (generally worthless except for venting) forums are going to waste their time to contribute.
Whatever you wanna believe.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The guy says it in the video, but do you have an official link to confirm? No offense. But if you have something more official, that'd be great. I don't know how many times I've heard someone say something in a video, only to have realized it was only a rumor later.
No offense taken. I can tell this. This "guy" work for gaming press. I do not think Cryptic would lie directly to the press even though maybe developers by mistake told that news during closed Press Beta event(my theory). Anyway there is no other official link. Maybe because:
A. Raids are likely far in future like Q2 2014 example.
B. This is a free game and they do not bother with lots of advertisment. They do not even try to get 12 people millions like WOW had during 2010. Anyway Cryptic is pretty cryptic about Neverwinter.
This is a sweet moment for me. A news that I LOVE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EeicfJGm-k8 Skip to 3.57... RAIDS ARE CONFIRMED! WOHOO! YEEEEEES! However we still don't know how hardcore this game is in loot policy. To say it is even near as hardcore in loot system as WOW is guessing and that has not been proved. However developers have said that this game has ENDGAME and now it is confirmed that RAIDS will be released sooner or later after release. I have no idea how big raids that is unknown,,, 10 maybe, but that is a wild guess. Finally do NOT expect raids soon after release. Raids could be introduced even a year later like Q2 2014, but that is ok and remember this is free game and not even WOW had raids at release.
How big Raids? Well that is unknown but certainly much more then 5! I would guess raids between 10-25 players. However I am content if this game will have at least 10 player Raids. 25 player raid is not must I am neutral to that though I have nothing against it. WOW style that you can get best items from 10 player raids is ok.
Fine I understand that many of you are worried that Foundry content will loose meaning? Foundry will never loose all of its meaning. You should not get max powerful items through Foundry. However Foundry should always provide more adventures that players can enjoy and many skillfull creators can feel rigtfully proud of those adventures they create.
As a free player I only have 2 free character slots. My plan is to with one character enjoy endgame i.e power progression etc. However Foundry content will always be popular since people also want to level up alts... personally I will keep deleting my alt character so I can enjoy low-medium Foundry level adventures.
Finally there is a lot of things that will change. So far I have only tried 5 vs 5 PvP in Neverwinter. If Neverwinter will still have only 5 vs 5 PvP during end of 2015 then I am flying cow muu:rolleyes:.
Comments
1. Add larger group content, but make the same rewards available by multiple avenues to accommodate multiple play styles.
2. Open up the maps a bit and make them less linear. Larger maps and less "tunnel" or 'funnel" shaped.
3. In addition to larger group content, provide multiple ways of questing, with options for quest paths instead of everyone having almost identical questing experiences. One single quest should not "block" you from the next "set" of quests.
4. More reward for exploration, as I feel this is a big aspect of D&D as well. Slowing down a bit to explore and discover secrets and so forth may be in itself a specific play style, but for those that choose to play that way, there should be incentive to do so.
Again, all of these points come down to rewarding different play styles and having choice. The explorer, the grinder, the quester, the raider, etc. A game should cater to multiple play styles if it plans on being successful, and within each play style, there should be incentive, equal reward, and multiple avenues of progression.
Well said.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
I started playing Neverwinter Nights on AOL in the early 90s, then moved on to Ultima Online, EQ, and the obvious others after that, and have played every major title worth playing since then. Yes I'm more of a hard core player, but in all my playing experience, it's the games that catered to multiple play styles that seemed to be the most successful and last the longest. And being successful doesn't mean just having the most players, it means developing a solid game with solid systems and a solid player base who continually play and enjoy the game.
It's pretty simple. If a game has limited types of content with limited play styles and caters to limited types of players, it will have a smaller player base and a very specific type of player base. This usually ends up with those people eventually becoming bored with the activities available. What is personally fun to me is being able to stop one type of activity and engage in another type when I so desire. Being able to do this in a more well rounded game, makes for variety and choice, having options, which means you don't get bored as fast and it keeps people in-game longer and more often.
I agree. Additionally, I want newer areas to explore all the time, and not to be forced to repeat the same areas/encounters over and over and over to advance. Doing so takes away the sense of adventure and excitement, and I get bored and leave.
Ultimately, I would prefer a world, where I can advance without having to repeat a dungeon/raid and mine exp ad nauseum in a graveyard/orc badlands, etc. Where there are enough new dungeons/adventures, that I can explore each once, just like old PnP games, and still make it to max level and have some cool toys the most powerful characters have. I am hoping with the Forge, that this wil be the case here.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
But the only reason I disagreed with this one point before was not because it wouldn't be great, but because I just don't think it to be completely realistic, since it would take a ridiculous amount of content to accommodate everyone... having firstly unique experiences and progression paths, secondly different types of content and play styles within those paths, and finally enough content that the thousands of people playing would never need to repeat any part of the content over again?
That would be amazing to say the least, but I simply fear it not possible. The amount of content would almost need to be infinite to allow for that.
But if it were possible, Neverwinter would certainly become the first and only true wow-killer yet developed. I think everyone would be playing this game if such a thing existed.
That is where we disagree. I do not believe it would require that much content. After all, all those thousands of players would not have to have their own seperate adventure paths, and could complete the same dungeons/adventures as others, just not repeating like MMORPG's have forced them too.
Millions of PnP gamers played the Official D&D modules without repeating, and Living Greyhawk seemed to do a pretty good job of providing new modules for players to play, and restricting them from repeating them.
With the slew of people wishing to make their own adventures with the Forge, the potential for Neverwinter to be the place that you do not have to repeat the dungeon again and again to advance is very likely. Restricting each character (Not Player) to one run through each is not really that out of the reach, if as many approved adventures as I forsee are made.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
And instanced raids would be a horrible idea though. Not because I dislike em but because the combat mechanics in the game are horrible for it. The healing system and tank system are horrible for an instanced raid encounter. The system will have to be completely reworked for tanking and healing.
This games is similar to GW2 in the regard that raids will be like their big DE fights while challenging content will remain in the party group category. Granted there is no challenge here whatsoever as everything is being facerolled.
Your opinion and obviously not the opinion shared by the majority of the 250 people who voted on this poll. Again, to just say they "won't work" or that the mechanics aren't built for raids is not saying much. A raid dungeon made for 8-10 people would work much the same as a normal dungeon, just with harder content and with boss fights made for larger groups. Simple. It all has to do with how it's designed. If they design it for the current game mechanics, then it would work. Not sure what makes you think they would not design it that way. lol
Also, you say raids aren't going to happen and make it sound official, but where is your official link? Please provide it if you have one. I believe raids will happen and that it is inevitable if they want people to keep playing, again, as shown by this poll. I don't have an official link on that because that is just my opinion. There was that video though that was posted:
Originally Posted by elewyndyl
This is a sweet moment for me. A news that I LOVE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=EeicfJGm-k8
Skip to 3.57... RAIDS ARE CONFIRMED! WOHOO! YEEEEEES!
... so it was stated in this video from a game news channel on Youtube/FB/Twitter (Cyan Firefly) that makes lots of game vides, that there will be raids, it's just they don't know yet what kind of raids. But it's at least clear that it will be more than 5 player content. I wish he said where he got his information from, unless I just missed that part.
Well, we can only hope you are right. It is a cool idea I must admit. And currently, it is already true with the Foundry. If someone may opt to level only with Foundry content and since there will always be new Foundry content coming from the community, this may yet hold true as far as always having a unique experience goes. Although, you would be forced to level using content that may or may not be quality in the eyes of the community as well.
In my 30+ years of PnP games (In 9 states, and 7 foreign countries thanks in part to Uncle Sam's Army), the quality of some of the Adventures/Dungeom Masters left alot to be desired. I think I can live with the occasional poor quality Player made adventures.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
But if the dungeon for example, is large enough, the mobs hard enough or numerous enough, and so on and so forth, the Foundry would let you tick a checkbox that reads "Make this a raid dungeon" which would allow for more than 5 players. Or even have a few choices, such as:
1. 5 Players
2. 8 Players
3. 10 Players
There would naturally be map / dungeon requirements in place that when met, would basically "turn on" the ability to check the various choices for number of players. I certainly don't see how this could hurt anything, especially since doing these raid dungeons would not be mandatory for any reason other than to enjoy the content. Being able to design a much larger dungeon made for 10 people would, IMO be pretty epic and very cool to say the least.
I could see devising a raid for several 5 character groups at one time to Captture the Flag. Several entrances, all with numerous encounters, traps that disorient and divide the party if not disabled, numerous ability checks to get past obstacles, etc... Wonder if such is possible in Foundry.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Because it is D&D and raids are not part of the game culture here. And this poll hardly reflects the real player base. Raids are just a good way to lock casual gamers out of seeing end-game content. How many players in EQ or WoW are raiding on a regular basis ? If you check sites like WoWprogress you will notice that only a tiny percentage of players have completed the end game raids. Raids are hardly something worth investing development hours into, since it only caters to said minority.
Bulletproof logic
You are reading it wrong. It means "I don't support content less than 5% of the player base will get to see".
I often played Tabletop games with as many as 20 players.
I'd like to see some big raids.
How many players are raiding in EQ?? LOL really?
Hint : its ALL of them.
Raids are not "part" of the game? Think about what you are saying. All "raid" means is a larger dungeon. The full term is "raid dungeon" which is just a way to differentiate between a raid for 5 people and a raid for 8, 10, or more people. Where is your logic in saying it's not "D&D" when it only has to do with size, and yes for a lot of people (excluding yourself and a smaller group) size does matter.
This thread reflects statistics. Statistics don't lie. It is a reflection of the entire playbase. It's the same reason why when our government takes surveys and polls and such, they don't literally take the poll from every single U.S. citizen but a small portion of the population because whether it's a smaller portion or not, numbers and statistics still don't lie. The numbers mean that about 7.6 out of 10 people want larger group content. These percentages have remained the same throughout, even when this poll only had 60 voters. That should tell you something. You can't say that people who want larger group content are the minority. This poll proves otherwise no matter how you try to skew the results to your own desires. Numbers simply do not lie.
You don't seem to understand how that works. The voters are a "slice" of the entire player base that reflects the larger majority. If you notice, out of the 261 voters, only 67 want content for 20 or more people, that is the minority and I would guess those are the hard core raider types. 79 people voted to keep it at 5 player content. That would be the next group up. But 135 people voted to have at least content designed for 8-10 players. That my friend is not the minority, that represents the majority of players.
And how is simply having dungeons made for 8-10 players making content for a small minority? You are gravely mistaken my friend. Rift is a very popular game for example and they have implemented 10 player raid dungeons and about 80% of all guilds in that game promote the 10 man raids and play them actively. You can see as much in Rift's guild finder when searching for the various kinds of guilds. And being a very well made MMORPG with loads of great content, I'd say that represents the fact that most MMORPG players want and play larger group content such as raid dungeons. Sure this is D&D, but please inform us as to how a dungeon of larger size for a few more players with harder boss fights does not fit into D&D?
I disagree, as does a famous Satire Writer, Samuel Clemens (AKA Mark Twain) "There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damned lies and statistics!"
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
On the idea that the vote cast here means anything, I can only hope that OP grasps all the issues of this "survey" and the problems inherent to it. Tiny sample, self-selection, limited options, totally non-random. I get that some people want raids, some people want raids in every MMO ever made, personally I hope that they aren't added.
[edit]
Or that if they are added, they offer no better rewards than any other part of the game.
I like raids because they're challenging and fun, especially with larger groups. I'll run the raids I like just because I like them, even after I've gotten all the gear I want from it.
That is just false. Everyone I have raided with (and that is a lot) are people who do it because ITS FUN. Not just for loot. The people who do it just for loot, still do it for a valid reason and if they weren't having fun, they wouldn't do it. That is just a ridiculous argument and it loops back on itself. If they are doing it for the loot, either way, that is their choice and what they WANT to do. If they are doing it because they want to, the devs don't care whether it's for the loot or just for fun, either way, people are playing the game, which is what's important. Also, this game is different from all other cryptic games so that argument doesn't work either. I absolutely abhor all the other cryptic games and really enjoy this one, if that tells you anything. If nothing else, it should tell you that it's very different to say the least.
Thanks for your input. Yet one more in favor of a play style that IMO should never be excluded from any MMORPG. After all, why exclude a play style simply because a minority does not partake?
The trouble with it is that by offering the best loot in the game solely via raids, this garbage repetitive content becomes the only "legitimate" content in the game. Everything else becomes just a stepping ladder to raiding and essentially it is no longer a "choice" to raid. I don't know how you can make the claim that people wouldn't raid for top end gear if it wasn't "fun" but I disagree emphatically with it. I've done it for years, because one is forced to in order to be "competitive" meaning at "end game" you have no choice but to raid if it is the sole source of the best gear (as it always is required to be if raiders get their way).
Forum polls really aren't a representative slice of the "player community". In the past I've seen MMOs actually do their best to collect data that is vaguely representative, it is always done via in game surveys, or at bare minimum an email from the company tied to your player account. The trouble with forum polls is the same as the trouble with forum complaint threads, only people who care enough to bother with the (generally worthless except for venting) forums are going to waste their time to contribute.
When raids don't offer the best loot it usually means there's an expansion with new raids and better loot. Players obviously would move onto the new raids they have yet to experience, which has more to do with experience than JUST loot. Why wouldn't you know that? Also, as I said before, if players want to do raids just for loot, then why is that bad? The loot is an obvious incentive and the thing they obviously enjoy the most. I find it strange that some people find this so offensive. If it wasn't meant to be enjoyed or if it was somehow "bad" to want loot, then it wouldn't be in the game. But you should not be offended by it either way.
And if new raids are developed and people don't care to go back to the old raids, then why is that a bad thing too? It's just the way it works. People get tired of old content and move onto new. I think if they can always keep people playing by creating new content, more power to them.
That is why I suggested several times that I would like to see the same "best loot" attainable by different means, not just raiding. I also agreed with another person a few posts ago, that if it's possible to always have new content and new experience instead of repeating the same content, then great, I'm all for it.
Whatever you wanna believe.
A. Raids are likely far in future like Q2 2014 example.
B. This is a free game and they do not bother with lots of advertisment. They do not even try to get 12 people millions like WOW had during 2010. Anyway Cryptic is pretty cryptic about Neverwinter.
==> True:
This game will 100 % sure have raids! How big Raids? Well that is unknown but certainly much more then 5! I would guess raids between 10-25 players. However I am content if this game will have at least 10 player Raids. 25 player raid is not must I am neutral to that though I have nothing against it. WOW style that you can get best items from 10 player raids is ok.
Fine I understand that many of you are worried that Foundry content will loose meaning? Foundry will never loose all of its meaning. You should not get max powerful items through Foundry. However Foundry should always provide more adventures that players can enjoy and many skillfull creators can feel rigtfully proud of those adventures they create.
As a free player I only have 2 free character slots. My plan is to with one character enjoy endgame i.e power progression etc. However Foundry content will always be popular since people also want to level up alts... personally I will keep deleting my alt character so I can enjoy low-medium Foundry level adventures.
Finally there is a lot of things that will change. So far I have only tried 5 vs 5 PvP in Neverwinter. If Neverwinter will still have only 5 vs 5 PvP during end of 2015 then I am flying cow muu:rolleyes:.