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Power vs. Armor Penetration

rgrmrdthrgrmrdth Member Posts: 0 Arc User
edited June 2013 in PvE Discussion
Which is better - normally.

Power
vs.
Armor Penetration
Defense
vs.
Deflection
Power
vs.
Critical Strike
Armor Penetration
vs.
Critical Strike
Post edited by rgrmrdth on
«1

Comments

  • zingarbagezingarbage Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Not really sure yet. The one thing about power is it has no diminishing returns, or at least it didn't in BWE3 I haven't checked in this one. Critical strike and armor pen both do.

    So in theory, if you can stack enough power, it will become stronger at some point. At low amounts it appears weaker. Looking at classes that have modifiers for it such as GF and GWF, I'm curious to see how it plays out.

    As to defense and deflection. I prefer the constant reduction defense has to offer over deflection.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rgrmrdthrgrmrdth Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Now that number 4 is done - Bump
  • themangroththemangroth Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 104 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    zingarbage wrote: »
    As to defense and deflection. I prefer the constant reduction defense has to offer over deflection.

    First of all deflection requires a whole pile of rating to get any results. Second of all, when you deflect an attack, you don't prevent the entire damage of the attack, just a certain amount.

    Defense is miles ahead of deflect. If I see deflect rating on gear, 98% of the time it end up being sold to a vendor.
  • cerek2cerek2 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 62
    edited April 2013
    Defense is a straight up percentage reduction to all incoming damage.

    Deflection is a percentage "chance" to reduce incoming damage by an additional 50% (as far as I can tell, you cannot increase the 50% number).

    Yes, they do stack with each other !
  • kotlikotli Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 577
    edited April 2013
    Lets see Power vs Armor Penetration, it comes down to how much average armor the mobs have, the higher it is more useful AP becomes. No one knows how much armor the mobs have though.

    Defence vs Deflection. Defence is a low amount of permanent damage reduction (I only got it up to about 10%). Deflection was on my Rogue a 25% damage reduction according to info window (it seem to be more like 50% in practice though). BTW there a 3 defence stat Armour Class that gives a huge damage reduction per point.

    Power VS Crit forgot how much bonus damage crits did but it a lot like +75->100% damage.

    The answer to what do you want? you want some of each.
    For the guy who says no diminishing returns on power that kind of true as every X power adds +1 damage. But adding more power for damage reduces your DPS compared to adding that point as crit. And if a 99% damage resistance armored mob turns up your going to want AP more than anything.

    The exact numbers of each we need the details IE 100 power =+1 damage 100 Crit =+1% chance 500 crit=+3% crit etc. With this info I will be able to plug the numbers in to claculations and tell you that you want to get approx 3power:2crit:1AP and 3defense:1deflection.
  • x0y1x0y1 Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    For my CW I will use a crit build but if you want more information about how cryptic does the math in a other game, look here for champions online: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=85948 we share a few points with them......
  • vernedndvernednd Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 215 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    In BWE4 when I looked at defense vs deflection on my GF it was obvious that defense was better. I was able to get around ~30% damage reduction on defense, deflection I was able to gather gear to get around~21% chance, but I felt like I lost more life going deflection only. Combined I could get around ~21% damage reduction with ~15% deflection, but still felt as though I lost more life this route. The best defensive stats for my style of play were defense and regeneration. Life steal was disappointing on the GF, had to stack a lot to get what one or two pieces with regeneration could provide (but I imagine the opposite will be true for a GWF or TR). The combination of the two, combined with near constant guarding, and cleric companion made potions pretty useless to me as a tank. This was mid to late 20s on a tank with just green gear drops and no enchantments (I lost them all trying to upgrade).

    Cheers!
    Fighter.jpg
  • zingarbagezingarbage Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    kotli wrote: »
    The exact numbers of each we need the details IE 100 power =+1 damage 100 Crit =+1% chance 500 crit=+3% crit etc. With this info I will be able to plug the numbers in to claculations and tell you that you want to get approx 3power:2crit:1AP and 3defense:1deflection.

    Power is a static +1 damage for every 25 points of power. AP and Crit take more rating for as each of them get higher. For example 100 crit rating may give you 1% crit to start but once you get up to 1000 crit rating it will take more to go up 1%. I'm not sure on the exact numbers of these yet.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • projxprojx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    If crit n arpen lose value as you get more of the stat then it's probably a good idea to go power with half arpen half crit. Although as a melee class I'd go Power = Defense > Crit > ArPen.
    Gave in to that momentary sadistic twitch...
    hk47banner.jpg
  • lucienirenicuslucienirenicus Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 71
    edited April 2013
    zingarbage wrote: »
    Power is a static +1 damage for every 25 points of power. AP and Crit take more rating for as each of them get higher. For example 100 crit rating may give you 1% crit to start but once you get up to 1000 crit rating it will take more to go up 1%. I'm not sure on the exact numbers of these yet.

    Is this accurate? 25 power gives you only +1 damage per hit?
    Cryptic: Fire your auction house dev.
  • krafenkrafen Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 59
    edited April 2013
    Is this accurate? 25 power gives you only +1 damage per hit?

    I didn't calculate the exact ratio, but that sounds about right. I pretty much wrote off power since the return was low and it was a number rather than a percent, so it didn't scale. If I'm hitting for over 1K, another 10-20 damage is not going to make much difference.

    Armor Penetration has potential, depending on the defense values of mobs. The real question is what happens if Armor Penetration exceeds the mob's defense. Does it reduce defense to a negative value, essentially becoming a bonus to damage?

    Based on the limited information we have now, as far as damage goes, I'd say balance Critical Chance and Armor Penetration. You'll end up with some Power whether you want it or not, but don't focus on it.
  • sirnamedsirnamed Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 102 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I've been ignoring Armour Penetration entirely on my TR. I stack Power > Crit, and that's all I stack.

    As for Defense vs. Deflect, you will get more consistent returns from Defense, since as already stated, it reduces ALL incoming damage by a certain amount. However, if you're a TR, and so you're stacking Dexterity (which contributes to Deflect), and since you're not stacking either defensive ability as for the most part you're avoiding damage, it becomes a little more sensible to stack Deflect (and by stack I mean, when you can't avoid taking a defensive, pick Deflect. You shouldn't stack either on a rogue ideally. Your job is to avoid damage through use of stealth. You'd be foolish to pass up extra Power/Crit for ANY defensive.)

    There's a similar argument to be made about the diminishing returns on Crit. TRs get so many skills boosting their Critical, that depending on the way these modify base stats, there may not BE diminishing returns. I'd be interested to know if anyone has more to contribute to that discussion.

    I'd also love to know if anyone else has more to contribute about Armour Penetration. I doubt i'm the only TR completely avoiding it. It's very rare that I don't get top DPS, even if there's another rogue in the party. But that might just be down to smarter use of skills. I could be missing out!

    More info please :)
  • sacred1337sacred1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    rgrmrdth wrote: »
    Which is better - normally.

    Power
    vs.
    Armor Penetration
    Defense
    vs.
    Deflection
    Power
    vs.
    Critical Strike
    Armor Penetration
    vs.
    Critical Strike

    Firstly, it depend on the class.

    I play cleric, L38 currently, and here is was I observed so far.

    Power is the most important, it has good synergy in that it boosts damage and healing. Yes, cleric can do very decent damage and decent healing. I usually come out in top 3 damage wise and 1st healing wise in a dungeon (even beating out dps classes!). If there is a dedicated 2nd healer then naturally I come 2nd in healing but not by that much and the extra damage more than makes up for it. I would not recommend going pure heal as you loose a good amount of dps and don't really gain that much in healing, and potions do a great job keeping the team alive anyway. I think there may be diminishing returns as your stats get higher as well, but this is based purely on observation, doing dungeon runs with other classes and comparing results with mine.

    Crit is 2nd most important as it amplifies your power stat for damage and healing as well as good synergy with cleric's stats that focus on crit.

    Defense would be 3rd most important. An efficient healer that also does good dps will have agro most of the time. So you need to have good survivability.

    AP and deflection are not efficient for a healer so don't bother.
  • realsk2011realsk2011 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    kotli wrote: »
    Lets see Power vs Armor Penetration, it comes down to how much average armor the mobs have, the higher it is more useful AP becomes. No one knows how much armor the mobs have though.

    Defence vs Deflection. Defence is a low amount of permanent damage reduction (I only got it up to about 10%). Deflection was on my Rogue a 25% damage reduction according to info window (it seem to be more like 50% in practice though). BTW there a 3 defence stat Armour Class that gives a huge damage reduction per point.

    Power VS Crit forgot how much bonus damage crits did but it a lot like +75->100% damage.

    The answer to what do you want? you want some of each.
    For the guy who says no diminishing returns on power that kind of true as every X power adds +1 damage. But adding more power for damage reduces your DPS compared to adding that point as crit. And if a 99% damage resistance armored mob turns up your going to want AP more than anything.

    The exact numbers of each we need the details IE 100 power =+1 damage 100 Crit =+1% chance 500 crit=+3% crit etc. With this info I will be able to plug the numbers in to claculations and tell you that you want to get approx 3power:2crit:1AP and 3defense:1deflection.

    This depends on class - which you neglected to mention in your title or your post. So for say trickster rogue, take the above and:

    Scratch Defense and Deflection, and get 3:2 ratio of lifesteal and recovery instead. Seriosuly, you're in leather armor, defense and deflection aren't really going to save you, burning that MFer down in 2 sec flat will. Lifesteal will proc off every hit, and help offset your need for healing potions - basically the more damage you do, the more health you get back. And recovery will help reduce skill-use timers - meaning you can get those big hitters in more. Also, AP is a much bigger deal for rogues than for say GFs, so that ratio is going to be a bit different as well.

    Summary: Trickster Rogue - 3:2:2 Crit/Power/AP and 3:2 Lifesteal/Recovery.
    You can also do a gimmick, burst build of 1:1:1 Crit/AP/Recovery - which is only really useful in certain dungeon situations backed up by a solid group.
    9.jpg
  • brumbailbrumbail Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    While I do appreciate your advice, I have to point a few things. If your group is using potions to survive, then you're not doing your job. Also suggesting that an 'efficient healer' will have agro most of the time is just anti group. I wouldn't expect the TR to be in charge of healing or a cleric in charge of taking agro. Both are best to be avoided.
  • redstorm55redstorm55 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 37
    edited May 2013
    I'll probably go something like this..

    Critical hit = Power > armor penetration

    Defence > Deflection

    Regeneration > Life steal
  • sacred1337sacred1337 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    brumbail wrote: »
    While I do appreciate your advice, I have to point a few things. If your group is using potions to survive, then you're not doing your job. Also suggesting that an 'efficient healer' will have agro most of the time is just anti group. I wouldn't expect the TR to be in charge of healing or a cleric in charge of taking agro. Both are best to be avoided.

    The group uses potions in critical situations, not all the time, such as when the boss throws a whole lot of add and no healer is good enough to keep the party at full hp 100% of the time.

    I never stated that my char was an "efficient healer". My char is efficient in that he can put out good dps + heals than a pure healer with low dps.

    The cleric takes agro when he is efficient at his job, that's just game mechanics. You cannot control it unless you reduce dps, but then you wouldn't be efficient. As long as you have good survivability there are no issues here.

    I find good dps and good heal > low dps and high heal, been verified by looking at dungeon run stats if you add dps and healing together. Try it if you don't believe me.
  • bulaiabulaia Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Interesting discussion in here. I'm playing a GWF (currently lvl 32) and stacked Armor Pen from beginning. Character's stats are mostly Strength(23 currently) with Con(15) and Dex(17). I usually get top or 2nd in damage. I hear a lot of other people talking about how gimp the GWF is but I haven't noticed it.

    I'm currently mostly Power(852) and Armor Pen(718) with a bit of Crit(378). Does great against mobs but not so well against players in PVP. I believe that's because some players don't have a lot of Defense.

    Does anyone know more accurately how the Armor Penetration is calculated? Hopefully someone will unravel the calcs running in the background so we can make good decisions on the items and know where the diminishing return really falls off.
  • devinnthedudedevinnthedude Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Judging from the character sheet armor pen seems to just the the exact opposite defense and armor class rating. Im 99% certain armor pen is better than power in most cases. Armor pen = % dmg increase. The only thing that changes this is how armor behaves when reduced below 0. If players and mobs can be reduced below 0 armor there is no comparison but i have a feeling they wont allow for something like that. Im pretty sure you will have to have to run a mix of alot of armor pen and power to get the most dmg out of your character.

    Im worried about some of the other posts saying there are diminishing returns on armor pen. Does anyone have a link to proof of that?

    Edit: Just thought of a second way armor pen could possibly behave. Armor pen could also possibly just reduce the targets defence by whatever percentage it says on your character sheet in stead of a flat subtraction of damage reduction, which would be pretty lackluster in my opinion. I kinda want a dev to speak on this topic theres nothing we can do as players but speculate. I would rather have some hard info on the subject.
  • inmydotinmydot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I have a feeling that AP is only useful against armor stronger than leather.
  • honoraryorangehonoraryorange Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Sounds like we need someone smart to do some testing. I could do some logs against a training dummy but without knowing their armor I'm not sure it does us much good?
  • x0y1x0y1 Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Sounds like we need someone smart to do some testing. I could do some logs against a training dummy but without knowing their armor I'm not sure it does us much good?


    Smart, not necessary but how about "obsessive/crazy" ;)

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=XR4KdpzlbqU

    [h=1]NW: Optimizing Stats & Diminishing Returns (Kripp)[/h]
  • glowyrmzglowyrmz Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I did some logs against a training dummy and didn't see a big difference, but I only have about ~300 ArP to work with. Don't know if training dummies even have mitigation. You think they would otherwise it's kind of useless as a real word scenario sim.

    If anyone has a larger amount and wants to try it out on a dummy, check out this log parser.

    http://www.reignofelysian.com/forum/showthread.php?105-Neverwinter-Combat-Log-Parser

    Disregard the line where the guy says to copy and paste into notepad and save it. The link for the plugin is already in the right format and ready to go.

    The 1 important thing he doesn't mention is that you have to tell the program where the combatlog is for Neverwinter. Just follow the Setup Wizard that starts up the first time you open ACT. Skip the Plugin tab and go to the Log File tab, there you have to tell it to point at the Neverwinter\Neverwinter\Live\logs\GameClient\Combatlog.log. You can hit next and then just click "close" on the next tab.

    Now that the Wizard is over, click the plugin tab at the top of the program. There's a Browse button, browse to the Neverwinter Plugin you downloaded then click the Add/Enable button under Browse.

    If you need to get the Startup Wizard back, click the Options tab at the top. Towards the top on the right you'll see a button that says Show Startup Wizard.

    Now in game type /combatlog 1 to start and /combatlog 0 to stop. You'll see the program update on the fly. Take a few minutes to learn the basics of reading it and the options on the bottom that let you delete specific encounters and stuff.

    Take a few different samples of Power and ArP gear and post a pic or just your findings.

    If you need help on how to use it, post back here.

    If I ever get enough gear I'll do it myself eventually but I'm still low level.

    EDIT:

    Here is another parser. I think it's simpler to use but it is less robust. It won't update live or give length of encounter like the other one will I don't think, which you kind of need to know how long each sample is. I would suggest learning the other one, only took me an hour to really get the hang of the whole thing.

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/combatlogparser/
    cROpbBa.png
  • justworknamejustworkname Member Posts: 63
    edited May 2013
    Is this accurate? 25 power gives you only +1 damage per hit?

    didn't see this already addressed, but its actually added to your weapon's base damage.

    Ya.. pretty worthless if youre talking an extra 20 pts to a 130k shocking ex... but on the other hand added to weapon damage, with its multiplicative effect... Through power you stand to gain more than the net difference between a level 60 blue weapon and your t2 epic weapons. I think looking at it that way, power starts to make more sense.

    Fully have to agree that defensive stats if youre primary goal is pve are not something you should be "looking for" on gear in the first place. For ex. you'd never prioritize a power/crit/deflect(or defense) piece of like stats over a power/crit/recovery or power/crit/ArP. A lot of ppl seem to be misunderstanding deflection in that they are under the impression that it "reflects" damage rather than what it actually does.. merely "deflects" 25% when you get its effect. Aside from that, if I were going for a damage avoidance spec for some reason, I'd personally probably go for defense, but I haven't crunched the numbers to see a comparison between what say 3k deflect would do over a steady course of damage vs 3k defense. At first glance, if youre up in that range, I'd guess that the flat all around DR from defense would win out.

    To give an idea of the way power fits into the picture, take a look at high end weapons. Aside from teh fairly silly mods of pvp weapons which throw some fairly useless HP pools on every weapon (I don't need the lecture that across all your gear they DO add so and so amt of extra health... I'm not saying they do nothing.. I'm saying their value vs nearly every other stat in the game that can be itemized in mod slots makes them useless and a fairly silly addition.

    So, other than that, there is a reason so much power is packed onto weapons, and that nearly every piece of high end gear has a sizeable chunk of power as its largest primary stat (yes... there are some exceptions). The reason being, the quickest, simplest way initially to up damage is by upping power. Balancing crit to a point, recovery... and then things like lifesteal etc for some survivability if mods slots are available... Anyways... tbh, due to MANY factors, not the least being that the median defense of both players and mobs in the game just isn't enough that ArP ends up being of nearly as much value is every other dps stat. Add to that the fact that targets are having their defense debuffed, there are skills that ignore armor, etc, ArP is actually nearly worthless. I'm not saying it does nothing... I'm saying comparatively, it just doesn't match up.

    If you understand the numbers, you get it. If you don't, you're stacking ArP because from its definition it "seems" like what you should be doing. But if you are doing anything other than soloing with a spec that does no defense debffing or auto armor ignoring (which is actually pretty rare if you look across classes and skill grps) then your ArP has been devalues into oblivion.
  • nam19772nam19772 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Power is the best stat by far, just stack it like your life depends on it!
  • justworknamejustworkname Member Posts: 63
    edited May 2013
    brumbail wrote: »
    While I do appreciate your advice, I have to point a few things. If your group is using potions to survive, then you're not doing your job. Also suggesting that an 'efficient healer' will have agro most of the time is just anti group. I wouldn't expect the TR to be in charge of healing or a cleric in charge of taking agro. Both are best to be avoided.

    I think you've fallen into assuming that combat mechanics in this game are functioning atm (whether intentionally or not) the way they do a several other MMOs. THey aren't, and don't.

    Clerics first and foremost, in classic DnD parties, have never been the sole source of healing. Pots were pretty common. Based on the way pots function with a small cooldown vs many other games where you get to use sometimes at most 1 per combat encounter, I think it goes a long way to demonstrate how healing works.

    Then, looking at how clerics function, and how their heals function, again, I think you'd be hard pressed to say you actually believe they are intended to be a groups sole source of healing, or that a cleric isn't "doing their job" if someone needs to use a pot. More likely you have a player who knows the difficulty thats been designed into cleric healing through other parties members, mobs, etc and so knows not to hesitate to use their pot when needed. (Oddly enough, there is still a LARGE portion of the player population completely unaware that clerics can't click target their portrait or some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like that which they've seen healers designed to use from other games)

    Aggro atm, by the devs own admission, is messed for clerics and they are actively investigating how to fix it. That means, again, if a cleric is pulling aggro, its not because theyre not doing their job... TBH, its most likely because theyre trying to heal the way you imagine they should.
  • justworknamejustworkname Member Posts: 63
    edited May 2013
    cerek2 wrote: »
    Defense is a straight up percentage reduction to all incoming damage.

    Deflection is a percentage "chance" to reduce incoming damage by an additional 50% (as far as I can tell, you cannot increase the 50% number).

    Yes, they do stack with each other !

    Could have been changed... atm its 25% not 50%. Now, if there were skills that could have an effect on deflection of 25% like some do with crit severity, then deflection gets interesting. ATM.... Only very rarely is it going to have made a difference that actually mattered. If you chronically sit so low in HP that 25% damage reduction would have saved you...... I don't know what you are doing, but it seems to me the flat % reduction from defense would have likely helped you avoid the situation in the first place, lifesteal or regen would have done more to get you out of it.
  • knoteskadknoteskad Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    25 Power equals 1 WEAPON DMG, not flat dmg.

    Every skill has it's own coefficient with weapon dmg, so a big skill like Lashing Blade should gain more dmg from +1 weapon dmg than a smaller attack like say Dazing Strike.

    Basically since you already have a big heaping of weapon dmg/power from your weapon already, power AT FIRST isn't good.

    Crit/ArmPen/Recovery are much better, but once you've stacked all of these dmg modifiers up, power starts to get better and better, and then these stats start to hit DR, and power becomes good then.

    As for Defense vs Deflection, in pvp Defense is worse just because of how much Armor Pen hits it. If someone has 20% armor pen and you only have like 8% dmg reduction from AC, any defense you stack til you get to 20% damage reduction is kind of pointless, but after that point it starts doing something.

    But then, the higher % dmg reduction you go from Defense/AC the more effective the enemy's ArPen becomes, because reducing your DR by a flat 20% when you have 50% DR is a much bigger dmg boost overall for them than if you had 30% DR, although you'll still take a bit less dmg at 50% DR, they're stat just becomes even more efficient. Then you through in all the debuffs.

    However for fighter classes, assuming Constitution actually does cancel out attackers' armor pen, defense wouldn't be so bad for them at all in pvp.

    For everyone else though it's questionable, and at a certain point deflection would probably be a better DR source. HP as always is even better.
  • snugglemancersnugglemancer Member Posts: 105 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Could have been changed... atm its 25% not 50%. Now, if there were skills that could have an effect on deflection of 25% like some do with crit severity, then deflection gets interesting. ATM.... Only very rarely is it going to have made a difference that actually mattered. If you chronically sit so low in HP that 25% damage reduction would have saved you...... I don't know what you are doing, but it seems to me the flat % reduction from defense would have likely helped you avoid the situation in the first place, lifesteal or regen would have done more to get you out of it.
    You're inverting the rogue's deflection severity. Although it sounds like it only reduces 25% from the number it's actually a 75% reduction.
  • sanctumlolsanctumlol Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 382 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    ArP > Power until roughly 2300 or 22%
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