Quest Development Process - How do YOU do it?

agentjaspor · March 2013

Hey folks,

So as I try and progress my first quest towards completion slowly but surely, I find myself a bit disorganized in terms of how I want to approach the process. Do I develop all the maps first? When should I build out the dialogue trees? Should I get the first map and related story flow worked out 100% and then move onto the next part? When should I place the encounters?

I find myself skipping all over the place. One minute I'm crafting complex dialogue trees for the first NPC you speak with, the next minute I'm adding encounters in key spots on each map. Part of it is that I'm still getting familiar with the tool, so when I run into a roadblock, I move to something else. Or if I find out how to do something new, I go "Ooooo, shiny" and start playing with that. But part of it is that I haven't really figured out the most sensible approach to doing things methodically.

Obviously there are several ways you can approach it, so I figured I'd open this up as a discussion here and see how my fellow Foundry peeps do it.

tilt42 · March 2013

1) Create an overall plan for how the quest will work. Determine what the different maps will be, their rough layout, and important events in each map.
2) Do a quick test of the map looks and other systems you are uncertain if will work.
3) Start at the beginning and create the quest logic for that one map in one go. Create things in the order the player will encounter them, and get them all in place. Make sure that map can be played from start to finish. Use placeholders whenever possible, for example for dialog.
4) Write the dialog, starting at the beginning of the map.
5) Add detail objects and encounters to the map.
6) Move to the next map and repeat.

The reason this works so well is because writing is a dynamic process. If I do things out of order I'll just paint myself into a corner. When I write, my NPCs start to live a life of their own and can tend to surprise even me with what they say. This means I need to be flexible. If an NPC suddenly says something that has an impact on later maps, I don't want to have to go back and remake them. It's better if I haven't made them at all at that point.

gillrmn · March 2013

I always recommend using offline tools to develop the quest first. yEdit (link) being my favorite choice.

Using the flowchart, develop the story first. Then add story dialogs.

After that develop side quests separately and decide its logic.

You will have a lot of different files. After that start the foundry. Cut paste a lot of things like dialog etc. When you hit the roadblock on logic, come to forum and post a question.

Eventually your quest will be a lot different from what you envisioned, but still it will only be better.

maddllama · March 2013

Pretty much how Tilt does it. Make the maps and ensure all the main story points are in first and work. This includes NPC's, mechanics, and anything that makes the story progress. Test that bare-bones a few times to ensure it all works. The story is what makes or breaks your quest, and if it is bugged or poorly written then people will lose interest and just finish for the XP.

Very last thing you do is add details or whatever else you have planned. Once that is done test it and use the 3D editor to make it look just right. Test it again, then again, then on the live servers a couple of times. For some reason things get lost in translation when you publish it.

bobcat1313 · March 2013

1. Pure big ale.
2. Drink big ale.
3. I come up with basic story. My first quest has 3 branches off of it. So I can keep a flowing campaign.
4. First quest I had story written. I did map first, then added NPC, then encounters last. Then detailed further.
5. My second quest. I had a faint story because you get drunk, arrive in a arena and wasn't sure how this was all going to work in foundry. I did one arena, pathing worked great once I put it live, nothing worked. I have another arena its huge! Theres bridges you destroy, platforms you have to jump too, so now I writing the plot. I finding this harder but I had to make sure I could even do some of the stuff before I wrote this up. I am actually almost done detailing and I still not finished with plot lol... ugh.

6. more beer... really I gettin gmore beer.
7. Then I have wife and son play it, I have her fix all my spelling cuz as you can see, I suck at it and usually by this time I don't see to good.

I have to make a wizards lair next, taking a magic portal from a sewer, I have some really cool ideas. My last quest the final boss. I need horse to be in it. I actually want to make a exploring quest where you ride to port llast, and you fight the in the city. Yeah I want to make a city. I've spent weeks on a little arena hahahah I would spend months on a city... oh a two map city

My best advice would be, listen to the people above this post.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

stoermc · March 2013

I have a sketchbook here that I use for all kinds of stuff I want to write down for the online games I play or used to play. Lately, it has been converted into a 'foundry sketchbook' where I collect ideas and eventually find myself drawing a raw skeleton of what the general layout should look like (places, notable encounters, important NPCs, general gameplay). Most important thing for me are key features of the map, like alternate story arcs, special scenery and how I would like to realize the idea in the foundry. This is the list of K.O. criteria for me - if I can't do a certain portion of the features on that list, I won't pursue the project at this time.

After that, I usually create an empty project and begin to experiment to see what of my K.O. list is possible and if it works out in terms of playability (Does it work at all? Is it fun?). This usually takes quite some time by itself. After that, I am generating the map layout with all the must-have rooms/places and begin to work. I found myself jumping from place to place as well, for example when building in one of my outdoor maps became too tedious, I switched to dialogue writing for example and then moved on to Encounter design, etc.

I feel like I am working in layers, so to speak, going from the big picture into detail until I eventually come down to arrange every single piece of debris until it fits.

zaphtastic · March 2013

Here is what worked for me in the past. Note that actual Foundry editing doesn't even happen until step 4

Inspiration (duh). Get a basic idea of what is happening in the quest, write it down, keep thinking about it. Just like when writing a short story, you need to know the ending (or at least a rough outline) before you begin fleshing it out.
Planning. How much 'meat' does this idea have on it? Is it a one-shot quest, or a campaign? Decide appropriately. If it's a campaign, split it into quests that make sense and (sort of) stand on their own. Define the scope of each quest at this point, along with what sub-goal the player would want to achieve within the quest. I personally prefer a straightforward approach of starting with an innocuous first quest then ramping things up to a dramatic finale, but obviously this doesn't work for all ideas.
Research. Broadly, what kind of things do I need to know more about that will help me with the writing? If I'm writing a quest about investigating the effects of a spellplague-related anomaly, I may want to look up some info about the spellplague, along with all the major players who are involved in it one way or another (gods, enemy groups, etc). Determine if the story idea needs changing at this point to accomodate Foundry limitations on a high level (e.g. there is no real way to satisfyingly represent spellplague anomalies). Then for each quest:
1. Skeleton. Create the layout of the maps for the quest based on the plan. Standard dungeon design rules apply: think from the POV of the inhabitants. How do they spend their days? Do they have a defense plan? What do they do when they're not causing mischief? Where's their food and water source (if applicable)? Etc. Again, research this if necessary. This is the first step where I use the Foundry, and I should have the first iteration of each map ready by the end.
2. Critical path. At this point it's already known what the player is doing in the quest (see [2]), so put it in the context of the maps, and add the necessary objectives. Add placeholder enemy groups if necessary. Then, for each map:
  1. Population. Add enemies to the map (unless it's a completely non-combat map, but I advise to avoid those except for gimmicks). Space them out appropriately, set up their patrol routes, etc etc. Test that they work as expected.
  2. Details. Add details to the map (decor, doors, dialog, sounds, etc). Add optional objectives and flavor. Customize NPCs. Write dialog and interactable objects in a plot-linear fashion (like tilt42 suggests) as you go.
  3. Polish. Play through the map a few times, notice glitches and things that are 'off' (whether in text or in item placement) and fix them. Check grammar and spelling!
3. Iterate. Ask reviewers / guildies / friends to play through the quest, note their feedback, decide which parts you want to implement, and implement them (of course you should also run through the entire quest a few times yourself). I would say even if you don't get your quest reviewed at this point, it is practically mandatory to have at least one person playtest your quest completely 'blind' -- ask them what path they took, whether the story was clear, etc etc. It is very important to make sure that the quest remains INTACT after the iteration -- if you change a lot of small things, you may not necessarily notice that the overarching plot no longer makes sense. Also see: death of a thousand small changes / design-by-committee.

Final note: accept that creating a good (and long) quest is a LONG process, and you will likely throw away a lot of work multiple times via iteration. This is normal! I have created quests for COH MA as quickly as two weeks of my spare time, but three weeks - one month was more typical. In Neverwinter, I expect this number to be even bigger due to the freedom allowed by the system.

izatar · March 2013

1) Dream a glorious dream!
2) Start with high expecations!
3) Spend several days setting up "Visible on Dialog Prompt" NPCs, crashing several hundred times.
4) Spend so much time working around bugs, I forget what the dream was, but instead ponder improving my standing in life by becoming a drudge.
5) Settle for what I get, whimpering in the corner.

agentjaspor · March 2013

Thanks for the responses, folks. Some great answers! It's nice to have some insight into how others plan their stuff out and execute. What I was looking for more of is not so much the creative process with notebooks and flowcharts and whatnot (though that is really interesting and helpful), but moreso how you approach putting that work into the game via the Foundry itself. A few answers did touch on that and has provided some good for thought, but most didn't go into that too much.

gillrmn · March 2013

agentjaspor wrote: »

Thanks for the responses, folks. Some great answers! It's nice to have some insight into how others plan their stuff out and execute. What I was looking for more of is not so much the creative process with notebooks and flowcharts and whatnot (though that is really interesting and helpful), but moreso how you approach putting that work into the game via the Foundry itself. A few answers did touch on that and has provided some good for thought, but most didn't go into that too much.

You mean you feel overwhelmed by foundry?

I did too.

Here:-
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?13161

Its a phase, it will pass with time.

agentjaspor · March 2013

Yes, overwhelmed is a good word. And yes, I realize it's something that's going to take time to get used to and become comfortable with. I just feel like there's a bit more pressure to get up to speed fairly quickly to be able to produce a quality quest before the game goes live, which seems like it's going to be pretty **** soon now.

That thread was back in September, so how long would you say it took you to go from "overwhelmed" to "pretty comfortable with the whole thing" ?

tilt42 · March 2013

It's all about how much effort you want to put into it. I just finished writing a dense 4-page document in Word that I will copy into my latest quest as a book that the player may read. It's central to the story (but optional even so), but still...

gillrmn · March 2013

agentjaspor wrote: »

Yes, overwhelmed is a good word. And yes, I realize it's something that's going to take time to get used to and become comfortable with. I just feel like there's a bit more pressure to get up to speed fairly quickly to be able to produce a quality quest before the game goes live, which seems like it's going to be pretty **** soon now.

That thread was back in September, so how long would you say it took you to go from "overwhelmed" to "pretty comfortable with the whole thing" ?

In my opinion, for me, I still feel overwhelmed at times. Whenever I feel I have to complete content by so and so week, it comes out terrible. But when I take my time it comes out better.

But after you make 2-3 quests, you start to get used to the tool.

veei · March 2013

Mine is a mixture of tilts and zaptastic. I am not a writer, but what I am is a very creative gameplayer and storyteller that has played RPGs for many years and ran many home campaigns and also was an Grandmaster level DungeonMaster for the RPGA (Role Playing Game Association, yes before it was called Wizards play Network, back when it was Ravens Bluff and Living City) for a number of years. So with Neverwinter, I use the same steps I took when creating my quests and campaigns then:

1. Decide overall story. Not in great detail just major events, key NPCs, places.
2. I then either on paper or your preferred method, write out the basic flow of the quest(s). How the PCs (player characters for you younger guys)get involved with the story, where they begin in the overall story line, who they talk to in basic order, the places they go, etc.
3. I then create the maps. I dont add alot of detail except maybe overall mood of the map. I then place the NPCs and encounters in the places I want them to happen and I then build the map AROUND those encounters.
4. Once basic maps are done I go through and start my dialog. I start from the first NPC and work my way to the end. One reason is what tilt brings up. Many times in the development of a dialog, the NPCs begin to take on a life of there own. Dialog can change depending upon the flow of the conversation. So as tilt mentioned, I need to be flexible.
5. I then test each step multiple times, looking for issues such as inconsistencies, detail errors, quest logic issues, etc. I test ALOT.
6. During testing many times dialog will change, map locations could change and even paths could change, but I stay with the overall story.
7. And Finally, its a full walkthrough.

That's the simplified version of my process. Throughout my day I get inspired by some times the littlest word or picture about new quests or story lines. The entire concept of the La'Roche Organization in my first campaign I am putting into Neverwinter was inspired by a song by Queensryche called "Speak" on the Operation:Mindcrime album. I hope my ramblings helped.

Vee

chili1179 · March 2013

I have to write the basic outline of the quest down, this wasn't true with DoD because it originally had no real quest and only after urges from reviewers I decided to actually have a back story (which is why it's so weak in CoC).

Once I started on the back story, which was created purely from placing lore items in the map, the overall story started to reveal itself and I had to take it to Open Office Word and let my imagination run wild.

The end result being a plan for 7 campaigns with at least 3 quest in each campaign. This may get shortened down as I also have other campaign/quest/story ideas I would like to explore. Definitely will be 3 since I already have those started in the foundry.

Now, it's a matter of building the maps and adding the small details to the story as I go. I do not plan the map layout just a basic idea of the setting I would like them to be and then get creative. Sometimes I can place a single object and it will change the entire layout of a room based on whatever springs up.

I'm not big on dialog and a vast amount of response selections because there are just too many avenues that can open and like someone else said on these forums, less is more. Most of my dialog is written down in OOW then added to the game but I have had loads of spontaneous dialog in my second quest of DoD. Probably too much. Also with dialog, it's very basic and raw at first then personality gets added once I have created the NPC in the game who is talking to the player. Essentially putting a face to the words brings out the character.

My biggest time sink is details in the maps. I love putting maps together and detailing out the rooms, there is so much room for creativity. I can spend days doing nothing but that. I have yet to make any outside maps, but the next campaign in the story has at least one small outside area and the third will have a whole small town and possibly an outdoor tribal stronghold depending on the resources it requires.

I would love to have a A B C 1 2 3 plan for my quests but my brain does not work that way, it's more like A 3 C 1 2 B.

With all that said, from everything I have learned in the foundry, knowing it's limitations and the feedback I have gotten for my current quest, I have a much better plan for tackling quests and campaigns going forward, which I hope will result in a much better player experience.

angrysprite · March 2013

Wow, I just discovered this thread and yesterday I wrote a big long diatribe on my own methodical logistics. Funny.

The short version on my own rhetoric in that other thread is basically:

Outline your quest in bullet format to hit the major goal-advancement points.
Write your story (all dialogs that give context to your quest, whether NPC or objects)

Write these dialogs outside the Foundry, where spell-schecking will work for you
I recommend creating a flowchart of the quest progress for PC, on paper or computer

Create your map, if you use a Cryptic template, dress it up to look very different from Cryptic version
Drop all your props and eye-candy first - make multiple walk-throughs, fine-tune in 3D Edit
Now drop all interactive objects, test and re-test functionality
Now drop all interactive NPCs, double-check dialog, and prompt threading
Save hostile encounters for last - so you can test and retest without their annoyance

then test the encounters that they are working properly, timing, mobility, etc.

New step: after all that, then add your sounds a music. Because those elements make the 3D map *hard to see*

I used to produce stage plays and such, I follow the same logistic as that, which is always:
1) Script - fleshed-out and solid, minor adjustments afterward as you go
2) Stage set-up - simply being your map is flashed-out and rock solid
3) Set dressing - populating your map to make it look "used" and not a hollow tube
4) Actors - start with interactive NPCs, save encounters for last (makes it easier to test and re-test)
5) Audio (I am primarily referring to adding your music here)

Everyone has or will develop their own creation style and methodologies - this method works well for me, of course it may not for you. But if you're just starting out, it's helpful to see how others stay organized.

volcxxx · March 2013

10% - thinking about quest/story
40% - polishing details/creating encounters
50% - wasting time on waiting to load time to check 1 detail / crashing / trying to avoid foundry limitations to make what i want

moondawg13 · April 2013

I use MS Office One Note to keep track of NPCs, mobs, quest dialogue, overall story line. It helps because I can type the dialogue into One Note and it will spel chek it four me... then copy / paste it into the dialogue field in the Foundry. It helps to have two monitors. Research is made easy by the fact the One Note will link your research items from Wikipedia to your notes. Just another tool to use, you could use a College notebook, 3X5 file cards... Another thing is to document your changes, so you have a record of when things worked, and now why they now don't.

wininoid · April 2013

After running into trouble in NWN, NWN2, and STO due to a mismatch between What I Can Envision and What I Can Create, I've been taking the approach of sketching out the quest with the story board. That ensures that I don't go overboard with branching dialog and side quests and so forth. I have to always remind myself that it needs to get finished and published at some point.

First I make a quick outline of the plot (no more than 1 line per high level plot point) in google docs or a notebook.
Then I create all the objectives in the story board.
Next I make simple maps (1-2 rooms) and place objects, npcs, and encounters, but only ones needed to satisfy the storyboard.
Then I write simple dialog for the conversations, 1-2 boxes max.
I keep going at the super stripped down level until my quest has all the components I want to include.
The goal of all this stripping down is to have a completed quest that I can play through without any errors. That means all the "coding" bits are done (e.g. visibilities on/off at the right time, story flow works and is logical, contacts work properly and update, etc.)
Play the bare-bones-but-complete quest many times and make sure you like the flow of the story.
Then I use pen and paper to sketch up the real maps and I create them.
Once the maps are in place, I populate them with objects, build any customized things, place encounters, etc. to make it look good and playable. Run through each map many times to make sure it works, looks good, etc.
Then I write the full dialog in google docs and cut/paste it into the dialog editor (I wish there were a better way).
Finally I add music and sound effects.
Play, play, play. Hunt for bugs, typos, etc. Try to play it "wrong". Go the wrong way. etc. Keep a notebook and write down every little thing. You won't remember that one typo on the first map when you get done. Also you can write down the ideas for your next quest to get them out of your head. DO NOT STRAY! DO NOT START WORKING ON OTHER QUESTS! THIS ONE IS ALMOST DONE! SPRINT TO THE FINISH LINE!
Publish and play through with a different class. Unpublish and fix.
Publish and create a "check out my quest" thread.
Buy more coffee and get brainstorming for the next one.

My key point is to get a full, playable quest done as quickly as possible. Think of it as a prototype. By playing through a bare-bones quest, you'll be able to spot problems early. Problems that you can't see until you actually play it. Then you can fix those before you spend days fine tuning a beautiful room or dialog that winds up in the trash.

agentjaspor · April 2013

wininoid wrote: »

My key point is to get a full, playable quest done as quickly as possible. Think of it as a prototype. By playing through a bare-bones quest, you'll be able to spot problems early. Problems that you can't see until you actually play it. Then you can fix those before you spend days fine tuning a beautiful room or dialog that winds up in the trash.

I think this is a great point and what I plan to do going forward. It doesn't make sense to add a lot of "polish" to something you might not be satisfied with and need to rework or even totally throw out.

oldskylancer · April 2013

I'm trying an approach that I hope will pan out into some fun adventures. I'm using my PnP group to playtest (guinea pig) story arcs before I create them in Neverwinter. I transferred my campaign to the city because I couldn't get my entire group interested in playing right now(they're holding out for more classes). I can use the IP more effectively if I’m using it in both virtual and PnP campaigns. It’s also giving me insight into what types of things I’d like to request after launch for additions to the foundry.

We play using a virtual table.
Neverwinter Foundry map:

Virtual Table map:

Scale is off but I can't wait to be able to show them the actual foundry renderings of what they've been playing.
It's also very suprising how PnP plays out so much differently. Hopefully I'll be able to bring those added dimensions to the Foundry.

wininoid · April 2013

This would be a good thread to keep/copy paste parts of to the wiki.

deathssickle · April 2013

Three words, "I wing it".

Truthfully my best creative ideas come out of boredom, I slowly build of an initial idea that comes out of the boredom and the idea grows and grows. I did base my first quest off of Forum RPing though

thunderspanker · April 2013

Yea, I find myself winging it a lot.. I start with a few drinks. lol.. and then by just throwing things on the screen, and looking at objects, and walking around in rooms, and build something that looks nice as a map. Then I put a reach point in, and thats the end of the quest.. At this point I hit the costume editor and create all kinds of things.. Customized NPC's. Then I sit back and have been having ideas roll in for a while, which i can start to play with. They could be anything. Then I try to design a beginning, and an end, that are really detailed, but there are exceptions. Like one quest, i started designing a trap, and then everything just happened around it, until I was done.. but done is a relative term.. I never think to myself, "Ok, Im done." If another idea pops, I write it down and put it in.

thunderspanker · April 2013

izatar wrote: »

1) Dream a glorious dream!
2) Start with high expecations!
3) Spend several days setting up "Visible on Dialog Prompt" NPCs, crashing several hundred times.
4) Spend so much time working around bugs, I forget what the dream was, but instead ponder improving my standing in life by becoming a drudge.
5) Settle for what I get, whimpering in the corner.

LOL.. yea. this. Especially number 4. At stage 4, your hair will just fall out all over the place.

deathssickle · April 2013

thunderspanker wrote: »

LOL.. yea. this. Especially number 4. At stage 4, your hair will just fall out all over the place.

yep, and the crash thing

chili1179 · April 2013

I's nice to see the diversity among the authors at getting their quest from an idea to published work.

My next "secret project" I am taking a more structured approach. It started with an idea and tested it on a map and the story began there. Now in the downtime I am writing the story and dialogue in OneNote as well as the quest structures.

To me it is and always will be an evolving method as I learn things along the way to make creation easier. It's all about experimentation and getting idea come to life through that and then just polishing it up and hoping the player has as much fun playing as I do creating.

thunderspanker · April 2013

Really, the most difficult part of winging it is making it cohesive, but that comes with multiple play passes, and paying attention to your dialogs, and what seems to "fit". After a few times or a hundred at this stage, you are starting to develope something that resembles a story... its like watching a picture go from low res to high res. each pass makes it a little more clear.

turokhammerstone · April 2013

I am still designing my first quest that is part of a Campaign. I had an overall finish in mind until I started using the foundry and realized it was not what I expected. I was assuming a custom developing tool like NWN's and instead have a prefabbed, modular, object oriented tool set. Not saying its bad at all. Just the expectations had to be changed.

My style is to have the overall concept in place. Take a lot of mental notes and jot them down for use when they are needed during the story.
Design the map based on how you want the encounters to flow and the mood you want to set. Try to get at least 80% of the map done and then Duplicate it before you add any workflow. The reason behind this for me is I don't know if the story will lead me back to the same map. I want a clean map to work with. I had an issue when I duplicated a map with encounters and dialog and every object on the dupe map became interactive with the dialog.
Build the story one step at a time. NPC Spawns> Movement to contact> Dialog/Combat/Interact> Movement to contact> Dialog/Combat/Interact>...Rinse and Repeat until mission complete. Replay and test with different builds.
Add in fluff. Non-interactive NPC's, sound, lighting.
Have friends and family play the quest (Blind Test). Ask them to describe the story. What did they take away from the quest? Does the dialog tell the full story? Did they notice plot lines? Was combat fun and challenging? Did they have fun?

Quest Development Process - How do YOU do it?

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