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Avoiding Confusion: D&D, D&D4 and NO
prootwaddle
Member Posts: 226 Bounty Hunter
To get this forum, and future NO in-game chat, to work a clear thing people should be prepared for is the difference between D&D, D&D4 and NO to constantly arise.
D&D has been around in it's conventional format since 1974 to 2008 (and from 2009 the Pathfinder role-playing game has been picking up the D&D-shaped hole in the market) and so a lot of people will constantly arrive expecting NO to be available in that format - distinctive classes, spells rationed daily from spell lists, non-combat elements, etc.
This an awfully large amount of people. D&D was so big at one point that some Christian fundamentalists once devoted themselves to burning copies of the game, an "honour" only generally granted to such things as culturally important as, say, Harry Potter or The Beatles.
D&D4 is a D&D-like (or D&D-punk) game that some people really like. However outside of that loyal community, few people will recognise the resulting game with CCG-inspired rules, internally consistent classes, spells recast as powers (along with fighter attacks, clerical attacks with healing side-effects, assorted backstab replacements, etc).
Then you have NO, which is D&D4-like MMO.
I'd recommend that, rather than arguing about what is D&D, people should instead work on recognising, and distinguishing, differences between D&D, D&D4 and NO so discussions can actually take place.
Unless this is settled these D&D players will arrive like unrelenting waves of barbarian hordes (from the perspective of a D&D4 or NO fan) and they constantly be surprised by the post 2008 D&D4 system and the NO implementation of D&D4.
People will need to rapidly spot this confusion and be prepared to explain what on earth is going on.
Strategically I think it is important that NO is kept as close to D&D4 as possible for when D&D5 (currently referred to by Wizards of the Coast as D&D Next) arrives, as NO will get a real boost if D&D4 refugees arrive to play it.
D&D has been around in it's conventional format since 1974 to 2008 (and from 2009 the Pathfinder role-playing game has been picking up the D&D-shaped hole in the market) and so a lot of people will constantly arrive expecting NO to be available in that format - distinctive classes, spells rationed daily from spell lists, non-combat elements, etc.
This an awfully large amount of people. D&D was so big at one point that some Christian fundamentalists once devoted themselves to burning copies of the game, an "honour" only generally granted to such things as culturally important as, say, Harry Potter or The Beatles.
D&D4 is a D&D-like (or D&D-punk) game that some people really like. However outside of that loyal community, few people will recognise the resulting game with CCG-inspired rules, internally consistent classes, spells recast as powers (along with fighter attacks, clerical attacks with healing side-effects, assorted backstab replacements, etc).
Then you have NO, which is D&D4-like MMO.
I'd recommend that, rather than arguing about what is D&D, people should instead work on recognising, and distinguishing, differences between D&D, D&D4 and NO so discussions can actually take place.
Unless this is settled these D&D players will arrive like unrelenting waves of barbarian hordes (from the perspective of a D&D4 or NO fan) and they constantly be surprised by the post 2008 D&D4 system and the NO implementation of D&D4.
People will need to rapidly spot this confusion and be prepared to explain what on earth is going on.
Strategically I think it is important that NO is kept as close to D&D4 as possible for when D&D5 (currently referred to by Wizards of the Coast as D&D Next) arrives, as NO will get a real boost if D&D4 refugees arrive to play it.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Post edited by prootwaddle on
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I've also seen a lot of people who are obviously Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2 fans. I think the name Neverwinter alone has gathered a lot of those people here. And they are expecting a very different game than Neverwinter actually will be. This creates a lot of confusion and also a lot of controversy in the community here.
Especially those people are heavily disappointed because they now found out that Neverwinter isn't Neverwinter Nights 3 with the "old D&D rules" they love and it never will be. They are venting their anger about that and even if we can't really blame them they also have to realise that in the end, this game is inspired by 4th edition and borrows some elements from past editions and all this is woven into another set of rules and mechanics. Most importantly it is sanctioned by Wizards of the Coast who own all rights for the D&D franchise.
I would recommend to treat Neverwinter as another edition of D&D, some kind of cousin or spin off that simply plays by different rules and uses the IP. Some people like it, some people don't. But don't expect the game to drastically change, make small suggestions how the current Neverwinter can be tweaked to better catch the D&D feel that you are missing.
im from the group you refer to with NwN fans, the major complaint about the game is the pregen classes, i would have much prefered to have a cleric and build it the way i want it over time, not "heres the devoted cleric it plays this way and this way only no exceptions you can play a bit differently but it wont work as well as this way."
the other issue i can get over if the game plays well is the importance of class roles in D&D like rouges disable and spot traps and hidden characters, and clerics heal and do some cc, wizards need to prep and inscribe spells, paladins do basic heals plus group buffs and tanking and other classes do DPS and some cc.
here from the vids its pretty much jump in swing some swords it dies rince repeat with little skill needed, and little role tactics.
the game imo will go live have 25% love it instantly and uncondidtionally, 45% will like it with some complaints, and the other 30% will hate it for what it has done to D&D. then after a while the player base will die off.
Just don't worry about it. We know that this isn't NWN3, just like a kid I now with the last name "McDonald" doesn't own "McDonalds" fast food. If we're talking about D&D, either lore or rules, it's usually (and supposed to be) related to 4E. And if it's not, we back it up with what edition we ARE referencing, sometimes including links and stuff. It's really a non-issue.
i'm not looking for any of the previous rule sets of dnd at all.
i'm sure there's many non vocal dungeon crawlers such as myself that just want a fun dnd type mmo game.
so far none have realy fit the bill for me but nw is shaping up to be a blast with the foundry it should be alot of fun for some time to come.
P.S. after playing 4e for about 8 months it does tend to grow on you, the learning curve is a bit higher than usual but it's still D&D.
Actually D&D4 was inspired by MMO's like WoW not by CCG's the Wizards of the Coasts devs even said so at the announcement they would be releasing D&D4. Just wanted to clear that up.
As for D&D Next! I've been playing the playtest of it and I have to say I really love it in many ways it actually goes back to the way 3rd Edition was including the spells limited by number you can cast per day and such, but offers a lot more customization aimed at encouraging Roleplay in new ways. Very similar to the Character themes that were introduced to 4E late in the game, but expanded significantly. So I'm not sure 4E players will like it or not flee to here or not as the 5th Edition will offer some pretty good things.
Those hat tips to NWN aren't actually hat tips they are things that existed long before NWN did and just happened to be used in NWN. I can link you to game books that came out in '97 that talk about the Moonstone Mask for example.
Corrected the date above, it was a typo. Thanks for pointing it out.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Deekin first appeared in NWN Shadows of Undrentide, so I'd say it was a hat tip to NWN
A lot of people say D&D4 was inspired by MMOs but I feel it actually was far closer to French/German boardgames and both CCGs and card based games like Munchkin.
If you read the original books at D&D4 release then you may well have realised that the Powers seemed suspiciously as if they were designed to fit on cards and later on the Powers were actually released as D&D4 Power Cards. So the essence of D&D4 could be sorted with a single page, like a mat for a French/German board game, and some Power Cards.
Wizards of the Coast made their money from CCGs, if you recall, although I did buy The Primal Order (a role-playing supplement) before Magic the Gathering took off. This predisposes me to look at D&D4 from a CCG perspective.
D&D Next does not need to go back to any specific edition of pre-D&D4 D&D any more than the version of Windows that followed Vista needed to go back to Windows XP.
However if D&D Next returns to the spirit of D&D, it will probably make a lot of D&D4 players very uncomfortable.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Sorry was just trying to stop this thread before it spiraled out of control
Wouldn't St. Cuthbert be more appropriate?
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Perhaps
St. Balthasar, St. Caspar and St. Melchior would probably be most apt saints for D&D4, in my humble opinion.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
In short, the original post is full of purely biased misinformation and should be ignored.
+1
couldn't have put it more clearly.
You are just trying to wind people up, D&D4 does not exist in opposition to D&D. It just is very distinct and confusion should be avoided. You are the "angry edition warrior" here, I'm just trying to help people avoid hours of argument on this forum.
Tell me which versions of D&D have Vancian Magic, for example?
Why would someone be confused if a magic missile fires a single missile in NO?
Answer those questions, if you are able to, and you'll realise why a distinction is needed for D&D, D&D4 and NO.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
I normally read the entire thread before replying. But this post made me scratch my head. The pregenerated classes are there for balance. We will get more classes, and they will hopefully have a specific feel, form, and purpose. There is no correct way to handle this. And I have to state that I am very happy with the design of the Control Mage.
As for the "jump in swing some swords" stuff... huh? Yes, it is part of it. But even looking only at the melee-characters, there are positioning involved. If you and another character manage to flank the MOB, then dmg inceases. The rogue can also backstab, and has to manage aggro, with the help of the control-wiz and the tank.
To add forced position-changes and combat movement, there are telegraphed attacks that, judging from videos, do a large portion of dmg even in the early game. So, I would say that from what I have seen, there will be need for a fluidity of movement, skill-use, and co-ordination. Especially if the difficulty level is high enough.
That is the worry-some part judging from the beta-previews, not the mechanics as is. Seriously, I dont mean to flame, but get some gaming experience before you state such things. What mechanic becomes rince and repeat is easily falsly justified verbally, as you have. But with 25 years of casual/hard-core gaming under my belt, I feel confident that cryptic has designed classes for varied, yet dynamic, AND balanced play.
As it stands; all classes are needed, but only if they know their roles in relation to others. Ofcourse, only time will tell if the game is fun in the long run. But considering what seems to be there already, I feel confident that bashing this game so early on, is just a sign of "they didn't specifically do what I wanted"
As for your predictions. It is baseless and needlessly hurtfull to the dev-team. They are grown enough to disregard it, but still. So, please Mr Nostradamus, this MMO promises to have more content, and more variety then any previous MMO, or rpg for that matter (barring the old NWN 1-2 ofcourse). In conjunction with the increased thrend for modding and amature storytelling showcased by the Skyrim mod-sites. I am confident in my hopefullness.
The worriesome aspect comes from the F2P, not any of the points you made, imho
Spot on, totally agree. It's quite normal that people are not fond of changes which 4th edition brought along with it.
No he is not. He is stating his own opinion on the matter and taunting him doesn't make things better.
Agree to disagree here.
I am not taunting anyone.
A fundamental issue people forget is that when people talk of D&D they can mean the whole range of the game, not just the last version before D&D4. 1974 to 2008 is a long period to dismiss and a lot of players can recognise D&D from that time.
Referring to the historic roots of the game is referring to the historic roots of the game, nothing more.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Man this gave me a great belly laugh.
There have been a lot of releases of D&D over so many years, so many in fact that when some modern players of D&D4 encounter the history of the game they seem to find it so threatening that when they they accuse people of lying.
The way to react to these understanding issues is to understand the differences between D&D (not just D&D3.X) and D&D4 is to do a bit of research into the "lore" of the game itself.
As a player of Champions Online, I know NO will be playable.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
I should clearly try to be more avuncular (like an uncle) and remember that not everyone has learnt to discuss or research.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
It's an interesting turn to call fans of 4E "threatened" by an edition of D&D that is not their preferred edition.
Stop pretending that your "research" is definitive. 4E is D&D as much as 3.X is, and as much as AD&D is, and as much as OD&D and Basic are.
A lot of people come to these forums expecting Neverwinter to be like 3E, as NWN1&2 were. Not, as your couching it, a singular mythical "D&D" that stretched from 1974 to 2008. Most people aren't deluded enough to think that such a thing exists.
It is sufficient to say that 4E is different from 3E, and a lot of the design and expectations that were brought to D&D in 3E did not remain (a lot did, though). On the other hand, claiming that 4E is merely "D&D-like", and not "D&D", is pure edition warring, and not helpful.
Thank you for your clearly heartfelt response.
I know some people really enjoy D&D4. Keep on enjoying it.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
PS: sorry for my english, not my native language
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
The rules system is simply a means to an end, not the end.
Neverwinter is about the D&D world, the story and the character, not the character sheet. And the Foundry gives us, the players, unlimited freedom to tell our own stories.
So in a way, Neverwinter might actually be one of the most D&D games ever created, regardless of the "mechanics" and what system it is inspired by.
I think 4E whacks the giant <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> but it is still D&D, to say it isn't is just ignorant. Out of all the things that 4E did to D&D the thing that irks me the most about it is what they did to the Realms lore with it.