Well... I believe if they allow players to become GMs, much like they have users that became moderators, gold spam will get dealt with much quicker than a small GM staff on their payroll.
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bubbabinskyMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 161Community Moderator
edited December 2012
PWE doesn't just hire more GMs because labor isn't free. And although many people would be willing to volunteer to take care of the issues, PWE refuses to allow this. I've requested it many times in the past and the idea has always been declined. We can only hope for Neverwinter to be proactive about spammers.
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karendeshMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited December 2012
I think that the idea of an IP Ban is much better than the fact of not being able to trade. My husband and my brother play with me, and that will make it a pain in the butt to help each other out with items and gold. My husband has helped me on many games to aquire the gold I have needed to get what I have needed, and vise versa. Please look again at the idea of an IP ban, it is not like we will be losing out on any decent players if they are just there to sell or farm gold.
PWE doesn't just hire more GMs because labor isn't free. And although many people would be willing to volunteer to take care of the issues, PWE refuses to allow this. I've requested it many times in the past and the idea has always been declined. We can only hope for Neverwinter to be proactive about spammers.
So, do you mean we will have a Cryptic paid rep to fill the GM role when Neverwinter launches? Because anything short of that will mean a RaiderZ style clusterfutz...
So, do you mean we will have a Cryptic paid rep to fill the GM role when Neverwinter launches? Because anything short of that will mean a RaiderZ style clusterfutz...
I don't know how to answer this... PWE does have a CM and Lead GM in place, but I don't know if I'm at liberty to speak their names, seeing as you don't already know. I'll let another mod answer this if I'm wrong.
PWE doesn't just hire more GMs because labor isn't free. And although many people would be willing to volunteer to take care of the issues, PWE refuses to allow this. I've requested it many times in the past and the idea has always been declined. We can only hope for Neverwinter to be proactive about spammers.
I "hope" that they will staff Neverwinter fully come launch, to do any less seems kind of crazy given that they have put so much time into promoting the game so far. If they ever let the spammers get a leg up on them, it will be really hard to get that edge back.
I think allowing volunteers to become in game mods to help out with spammers and other game issues is a great idea, odd that they refuse to allow this in their games. Perhaps if we do notice issues when Neverwinter launches, we can petition them until they relent?
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited December 2012
The thing is PWE doesn't spend a lot of money developing these games, because they are only the publisher. So they invest in the game minimally and turn a profit on it even with large player attrition if people spend ANY money in game. Therefore it seems silly to them to take the risk of investing money in GMs when they can turn a profit on a game like RaiderZ without having to do so. Our argument is that they could potentially make more money by investing in their product, like hiring GMs, but it's a gamble. They WILL make money without investing in GMs, so why bother? Who cares if the game never grows, they have huge player attrition, and it doesn't last very long? They invest no money and turn a profit.
It will be up to Cryptic to handle the gold spammers - I don't see PWE giving a rats HAMSTER.
I, for one, won't be spending any money on PWE games if I don't see PWE spending money on them.
If I got paid(with a Neverwinter Subscription or Lifetime Subscription to work for at least 3 years) Id be willin to be a Neverwinter GM... as long as I didn't have to move to get the job.
So, do you mean we will have a Cryptic paid rep to fill the GM role when Neverwinter launches? Because anything short of that will mean a RaiderZ style clusterfutz...
Even having to ask this questions fills me with great worry and dread..
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
We have a Lead GM, you probably have even seen them around the forums, but it's up to them to state their official title. You really don't need to know who they are in order for the game to be a success.
Furthermore simply hiring more staff in order to handle spam reports wouldn't solve anything. That's a reactive solution which expends more money than it's worth and really doesn't solve any issues. Gold Spammers make accounts as fast as fast as a whole team of GM's could ban them.
Maybe not at launch but if the game is successful it will happen. As somebody said previously, it's not enough to simply remove them from the game, it has to become too much of a hassle for them to operate in order to be truly effective.
All in all almost all internet users are given Dynamic IP Addresses. It typically costs more money to have a Static IP and this feature really is only required if you are a server host of some sort. The typical home user has no reason to need a static IP, although it does make certain tasks easier.
There are some ISP's which do give static IP's but I assure you these are few and far between. Any website discussing Static IP Addresses can show this. Also worth noting is the fact that IP Addresses rarely change on a Cable/DSL system yet this does not, by any means, mean the IP is static. Years can pass between IP Address change on a Cable/DSL ISP.
Why are IP Addresses dynamic? Because the aren't an infinite amount of them. Look at them as free to borrow...but if you want to own a certain address you have to pay to lease the address from most Internet Service Providers.
Just to point out how limited they are in February of 2011 IANA (Internet Assigned Numbers Authority) announced that they officially ran out of IPv4 IP Addresses.
I looked long and hard for an article from some creditable source such as MMORPG.com or such which gave a long detailed description on why there are no MMO's which IP Ban individual (not regional) users but I couldn't find anything. It seems to be left up to each and every Company to describe on their own.
However most games will state in their rules, policies and regulations that they will not IP Ban any user because it is not a reliable method of banning a user for the exact reasons I have described.
IP Bans are a common request which are never filled. It's not functional. IP Addresses aren't assigned to each household as people would like and are easily changeable or masked...even if you have a static IP.
Furthermore simply hiring more staff in order to handle spam reports wouldn't solve anything.
PW/Cryptic actually doesn't have to hire more staff. They could put an ad in the local newspaper for 3-5 part time interns to handle spam and rule violations duties. Starting without in game GMs would be suicide.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
Interns aren't free. It's a common misconception, legally they have to be paid.
In game GM's would help and I don't doubt they would be there for a period time after launch but that is not a long term solution. As I said, this issue only gets worse over time unless some proactive solution is put in place.
Manpower alone can not handle Gold Spammer issues. Sadly that is not in any way an exaggeration.
Interns aren't free. It's a common misconception, legally they have to be paid.
In game GM's would help and I don't doubt they would be there for a period time after launch but that is not a long term solution. As I said, this issue only gets worse over time unless some proactive solution is put in place.
The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) defines an employee as “any individual employed by an employer.” To “employ” means “to suffer or permit to work.”
So how do unpaid interns fit into this picture? No doubt, many believe they are both permitted to work … and suffer, perhaps because they’re not being paid.
The FLSA doesn’t specifically address unpaid interns. But where the law is silent, the U.S. Supreme Court has spoken. In Walling v. Portland Terminal Co. (330 U.S. 148, 1947), the Supreme Court ruled that individuals who work without any express or implied compensation agreement on an employer’s premises are not employees, if they benefit by receiving training or experience.
Manpower alone can not handle Gold Spammer issues. Sadly that is not in any way an exaggeration.
Oh I agree entirely with ya here Ambi. But I couldnt imagine a DDO with no GMs all these years... it would have been a total disaster. PW/Cryptic has something to learn in this arena, they best rent a bus en route to Turbine Studios for a day trip... because they've done an excellent job fighting and defeating spammers at all levels.
I don't get why they refuse to hire volunteers who live outside of their area. Many games have competent people who would gladly give their time to see a game succeed, or to improve an existing game. I know that this alone won't solve the problem, but having a staff of paid GM's that DON'T have to mess with menial tasks because the volunteers are taking dare of it, would allow them to devote more time to more complex issues.
It seems like a win on all sides, except for the spammers. Why do they refuse to permit it?
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
It's strange how the customers don't have to pay to play the game care more about its future than the company that invests in it.
That's the thing: PWE doesn't have to invest in it to turn a profit on it. If anyone spends money on the game, and they don't spend any money maintaining it (like hiring GMs), they'll make money. Cryptic is the one who paid to develop the game, not PWE. And if it fails, Cryptic is the one who loses money. Hosting the game on PWE servers costs PWE next to nothing.
So why would PWE hire GMs? They don't care how long the game lasts, or how enjoyable it is for customers. It only takes a handful of people buying ZEN in the game for PWE to turn a quick profit, then, it's "who cares if they leave?"
Cryptic has GM's for STO and CO.....and they are pretty quick at answering a tickets, I really don't think they are just going to put a skeleton crew on Neverwinter...that would be setting the game up to fail. I don't think that anyone here is saying just throw a bunch of GM's at them...but they need people to respond to tickets and band those spammers when they are reported, or make it so it isn't worth their time to spam the forums by limiting trade or reducing the importance of gold.
Probably because they're hesitant to give sensitive information about server maintenance to volunteers. It would be giving a stranger too much control/ability. It's different when you sit down with somebody for an interview and hire them.
A pretty sophisticated system would have to be specially developed for volunteer in game moderators to have the power to address issues like gold spammers without having the ability to abuse power. And that's not even touching any legal concerns. Typically, you have to pay people who work for you. I'm sure there's tax licensing BS associated with volunteers as well.
That's the thing: PWE doesn't have to invest in it to turn a profit on it. If anyone spends money on the game, and they don't spend any money maintaining it (like hiring GMs), they'll make money. Cryptic is the one who paid to develop the game, not PWE. And if it fails, Cryptic is the one who loses money. Hosting the game on PWE servers costs PWE next to nothing.
So why would PWE hire GMs? They don't care how long the game lasts, or how enjoyable it is for customers. It only takes a handful of people buying ZEN in the game for PWE to turn a quick profit, then, it's "who cares if they leave?"
If that were true you would see PWE throwing it's other titles under the bus which it hasn't done...quite the contrary....they keep adding to those games to keep populations and revenue high, it's seems to have paid off for them too.
If that were true you would see PWE throwing it's other titles under the bus
Which seems to be pretty much exactly what they've done with RaiderZ
The population has halved since OB
They don't even issue patch notes on release: the only changes PWE makes to it is additional stuff to buy in the store
Hell, instead of, say, hiring a GM to log on every once in a while and ban all the gold spammers in Ingen, they got a volunteer moderator to close any threads about gold spammers instead. That's a company that cares, right there.
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bubbabinskyMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 161Community Moderator
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
Aandre:
Department of Labor - Internships
Unpaid interns exist...but it explicitly states it has to be educational...and I doubt dealing with rule violation issues can be passed off as educational.
You can not hire interns as slave labor to cut costs.
Ruinedmirage - There's a huge difference between rating content and being able to issue account status changes to other players. Even as a Forum Moderator I am only offered limited power in the way of things...and anything I do I am held accountable for. Players issuing bans/mutes/status changes is not something to take lightly and it goes beyond company policy and into legal ramifications.
Don't mistake won't/haven't with not ideal/advisable or legally sound.
It's easy to say give players the ability to ban accounts...but what happens when those players lose their account security and the "hacker" goes on a banning/muting rampage. There are heavy risks and legal discrepancies to deal with in giving players power.
I loved having trusted players with in game moderator status in other MMO's but that comes with it's own problems and is not, by any means, as simple as giving people power. Nor did it, by any means, stop that games' Gold Spammer issue.
Comments
So, do you mean we will have a Cryptic paid rep to fill the GM role when Neverwinter launches? Because anything short of that will mean a RaiderZ style clusterfutz...
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
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I don't know how to answer this... PWE does have a CM and Lead GM in place, but I don't know if I'm at liberty to speak their names, seeing as you don't already know. I'll let another mod answer this if I'm wrong.
I "hope" that they will staff Neverwinter fully come launch, to do any less seems kind of crazy given that they have put so much time into promoting the game so far. If they ever let the spammers get a leg up on them, it will be really hard to get that edge back.
I think allowing volunteers to become in game mods to help out with spammers and other game issues is a great idea, odd that they refuse to allow this in their games. Perhaps if we do notice issues when Neverwinter launches, we can petition them until they relent?
It will be up to Cryptic to handle the gold spammers - I don't see PWE giving a rats HAMSTER.
I, for one, won't be spending any money on PWE games if I don't see PWE spending money on them.
Anyone still searching for guilds you can check out HCG Hardcore Christian Gamers.
NW FAQ | HCG NW Host Site
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I like how you put that. It's a good philosophy to abide by in any case.
Unfortunately all GMs have to live at PWE HQ
Like, in the basement? That's odd.
I figured as much and I am guessin it is in some state to far away for me to drive to daily or even weekly.
Anyone still searching for guilds you can check out HCG Hardcore Christian Gamers.
NW FAQ | HCG NW Host Site
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Not in the same building lol. I should have been more clear. You have to live so you can commute to PWE HQ.
I was kidding
I know :P *insert bear smiley here*
Even having to ask this questions fills me with great worry and dread..
Furthermore simply hiring more staff in order to handle spam reports wouldn't solve anything. That's a reactive solution which expends more money than it's worth and really doesn't solve any issues. Gold Spammers make accounts as fast as fast as a whole team of GM's could ban them.
Maybe not at launch but if the game is successful it will happen. As somebody said previously, it's not enough to simply remove them from the game, it has to become too much of a hassle for them to operate in order to be truly effective.
Some Information on IP Addresses -
Dynamic and Static IP Addresses
Some General IP Connection Information
IANA
All in all almost all internet users are given Dynamic IP Addresses. It typically costs more money to have a Static IP and this feature really is only required if you are a server host of some sort. The typical home user has no reason to need a static IP, although it does make certain tasks easier.
There are some ISP's which do give static IP's but I assure you these are few and far between. Any website discussing Static IP Addresses can show this. Also worth noting is the fact that IP Addresses rarely change on a Cable/DSL system yet this does not, by any means, mean the IP is static. Years can pass between IP Address change on a Cable/DSL ISP.
Why are IP Addresses dynamic? Because the aren't an infinite amount of them. Look at them as free to borrow...but if you want to own a certain address you have to pay to lease the address from most Internet Service Providers.
Just to point out how limited they are in February of 2011 IANA (Internet Assigned Numbers Authority) announced that they officially ran out of IPv4 IP Addresses.
I looked long and hard for an article from some creditable source such as MMORPG.com or such which gave a long detailed description on why there are no MMO's which IP Ban individual (not regional) users but I couldn't find anything. It seems to be left up to each and every Company to describe on their own.
However most games will state in their rules, policies and regulations that they will not IP Ban any user because it is not a reliable method of banning a user for the exact reasons I have described.
IP Bans are a common request which are never filled. It's not functional. IP Addresses aren't assigned to each household as people would like and are easily changeable or masked...even if you have a static IP.
PW/Cryptic actually doesn't have to hire more staff. They could put an ad in the local newspaper for 3-5 part time interns to handle spam and rule violations duties. Starting without in game GMs would be suicide.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
In game GM's would help and I don't doubt they would be there for a period time after launch but that is not a long term solution. As I said, this issue only gets worse over time unless some proactive solution is put in place.
Manpower alone can not handle Gold Spammer issues. Sadly that is not in any way an exaggeration.
The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) defines an employee as “any individual employed by an employer.” To “employ” means “to suffer or permit to work.”
So how do unpaid interns fit into this picture? No doubt, many believe they are both permitted to work … and suffer, perhaps because they’re not being paid.
The FLSA doesn’t specifically address unpaid interns. But where the law is silent, the U.S. Supreme Court has spoken. In Walling v. Portland Terminal Co. (330 U.S. 148, 1947), the Supreme Court ruled that individuals who work without any express or implied compensation agreement on an employer’s premises are not employees, if they benefit by receiving training or experience.
Oh I agree entirely with ya here Ambi. But I couldnt imagine a DDO with no GMs all these years... it would have been a total disaster. PW/Cryptic has something to learn in this arena, they best rent a bus en route to Turbine Studios for a day trip... because they've done an excellent job fighting and defeating spammers at all levels.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
It's strange how the customers don't have to pay to play the game care more about its future than the company that invests in it.
It seems like a win on all sides, except for the spammers. Why do they refuse to permit it?
That's the thing: PWE doesn't have to invest in it to turn a profit on it. If anyone spends money on the game, and they don't spend any money maintaining it (like hiring GMs), they'll make money. Cryptic is the one who paid to develop the game, not PWE. And if it fails, Cryptic is the one who loses money. Hosting the game on PWE servers costs PWE next to nothing.
So why would PWE hire GMs? They don't care how long the game lasts, or how enjoyable it is for customers. It only takes a handful of people buying ZEN in the game for PWE to turn a quick profit, then, it's "who cares if they leave?"
Probably because they're hesitant to give sensitive information about server maintenance to volunteers. It would be giving a stranger too much control/ability. It's different when you sit down with somebody for an interview and hire them.
A pretty sophisticated system would have to be specially developed for volunteer in game moderators to have the power to address issues like gold spammers without having the ability to abuse power. And that's not even touching any legal concerns. Typically, you have to pay people who work for you. I'm sure there's tax licensing BS associated with volunteers as well.
If that were true you would see PWE throwing it's other titles under the bus which it hasn't done...quite the contrary....they keep adding to those games to keep populations and revenue high, it's seems to have paid off for them too.
Which seems to be pretty much exactly what they've done with RaiderZ
The population has halved since OB
They don't even issue patch notes on release: the only changes PWE makes to it is additional stuff to buy in the store
Hell, instead of, say, hiring a GM to log on every once in a while and ban all the gold spammers in Ingen, they got a volunteer moderator to close any threads about gold spammers instead. That's a company that cares, right there.
RaiderZ gets enough nay-sayers as it is on it's own forum. Lets try to keep the untrue, negative comments about RaiderZ off of this forum.
PWE doesn't own RaiderZ Maiet entertainment dose, PWE just publishes for them like they publish the Torchlight series, PWE owns Cryptic.
That's the difference.
Department of Labor - Internships
Unpaid interns exist...but it explicitly states it has to be educational...and I doubt dealing with rule violation issues can be passed off as educational.
You can not hire interns as slave labor to cut costs.
Ruinedmirage - There's a huge difference between rating content and being able to issue account status changes to other players. Even as a Forum Moderator I am only offered limited power in the way of things...and anything I do I am held accountable for. Players issuing bans/mutes/status changes is not something to take lightly and it goes beyond company policy and into legal ramifications.
Don't mistake won't/haven't with not ideal/advisable or legally sound.
It's easy to say give players the ability to ban accounts...but what happens when those players lose their account security and the "hacker" goes on a banning/muting rampage. There are heavy risks and legal discrepancies to deal with in giving players power.
I loved having trusted players with in game moderator status in other MMO's but that comes with it's own problems and is not, by any means, as simple as giving people power. Nor did it, by any means, stop that games' Gold Spammer issue.
Let's hope it makes a difference, but call me a skeptic.
I'll hold off on spending any money on NWO till I see that PWE shows they care more about it than the show they've put on for RaiderZ