The problem with MMOs is that devs naturally wanted to make them "AAA," including everything under the sun. The rationale ostensibly is to attract more gamers. In trying to be everything to everyone, the game gets built with multiple design goals in mind, which is a problem. In engineering, designs get optimized with respect to some performance criterion which guides the solution. However optimization with respect to some parameter will be suboptimal with respect to others. This is just a fact of nature. So as long as the MMOs have disparate design goals that remain tethered together or one optimized fully against the other, they will not satisfy gamers wanting to experience their particular niche.
The problem does lie in PvP for MMOs. PvP introduces a new consideration into traditional RPGs that strongly determine game design: competition. In competitive PvP, players want to engage in skillful gaming against others. Real competition requires a level playing field so that the outcomes are based on skill and talent (as much as possible). Thus there is an obsession with class balance so that no one is left out. This generally requires class design to be rigidly defined so it can be tested to yield the desired balance.
On the other hand, many traditional lovers of RPGs are not interested in competition. They want to log in and go on an adventure in a different world. They want to form a group and enter a vampire lair, flee in terror from a gelatinous club, banish a demon back to lower hells, and trade their loot at the bazaar. There is a completely different experience these players are looking for. Balance is less of an issue since an interesting build's weakness can be buttressed by the strength of others in a group. Character advancement and encounter design can be more flexible as there are different design goals at work.
Thus, PvP and PvE players lock horns, wanting better game design for what they like to play. The solution is for game developers to start building games that focus on a niche not and on everything. Designing for a niche will concentrate players that really want that experience. All the energy of development can be given over to that task, without waste, creating a superior product. And you don't lose most of your players because that niche wasn't made suboptimal by needing to consider other design goals.
There are other serious issues for MMOs today like the need for player-driven content and monetization, but that's for other threads.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
Well, allegedly this is why Goblinworks is making Pathfinder the MMO, but we will see.
Too many people jump on the PvP hate bandwagon for this to be reasonbly discussed. PvP is a critical pillar in MMOs, it provides a different playstyle that many MMOers cater to, just like raiding or gear progression caters to other MMOers. MMOs need to fulfill mutiple playstyles if it wants to succeed.
Since Cryptic stopped releasing group options News since Events, it's very likely to me that PvP then will be like their other two STO/CO games and be group events or solo 1-on-1 instanced events, look up Star Trek or Champions Online PvP to see what video they have if you don't already play it. Unless they show me screenshots/video otherwise.
Since they are not mentioning anything ground breaking and had this planned for the early 2013 release, it's all but guaranteed to me it's their usual way of doing it. For better or worse, that's how it is.
Except that there are so many different factions that would fight each other it's ridiculous. NW has the potential of having PvP in a massive scale simply due to the fact that there are so many different factions out that that are rivals or simply pursuing their own agendas.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Except that there are so many different factions that would fight each other it's ridiculous. NW has the potential of having PvP in a massive scale simply due to the fact that there are so many different factions out that that are rivals or simply pursuing their own agendas.
And see The Secret World. There is no simple way to switch factions unless it's built into the game as PvP inclusive; trust me I've been there with many games promising otherwise. Therefore, the Cryptic method of instanced PvP and/or locked faction will be used still. With the lack of factions in this game, your PvP will be instanced then.
I don't believe WOTC are going to open a new eSports facility any time soon. They may eventually get down to licensing a pure pvp Game, but its not going to be Hobberball, because there has to be more to it.
In Faerun lore, the beginning of the story marks a kind of cataclysm that destroys much of the land and leaves it in a state of near-anarchy. There could be a massive war breaking out in the near future, with every faction fighting everybody else. If they made it possible to integrate instanced pvp with the official campaign or ugc, we could really have something at our hands. Of course, it hasn't been done before and it looks like a massive task to me.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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galvayraMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's competition you fight to feel you are better than others it's a very pure human feeling same as hate or jealousy, it is same as you would say that sports are stupid. PvP have different modes so using your head is often key to win. What is a qonsequence of going to instance where you kill the mobs take loot and go out.
This is open world mmo so anything you do will not affect other players. I think you have expectations that may be difficult to meet in F2P mmo open world game.
You don't go to a restaurant to compete in an ad hoc" lets see who eats the fastest" competition, you don't drive your car home and suddenly decide "lets race"
If you want competition you go compete in a designate place and/or sport you don't change the environment to suit your needs or that is how it should be
How is anything you do in a game more pointless than another thing you do in a game? Is endgame gear treadmill more productive than fighting with other people? I thought that we played games because it is fun and not because it had any greater purpose.
I always imagined MMORPGS as some sort of open books, where you would be a character in that book and progres through the story, it was never about the gear grind and the power leveling those things were brought by the pvp community ,the people who try to maximize their competive nature at the cost of everything else
At this point we know for sure that there will be pvp, at the very least they didn't made it mandatory so i wont have to participate in it, now all they need to do is to flag those that pvp in some from or another so i would never group with them during pve, i dont need the "gg noob you dont got enough dps, you dont got the best stats and the best build" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> mentality to spill into my gaming sessions
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
At this point we know for sure that there will be pvp, at the very least they didn't made it mandatory so i wont have to participate in it, now all they need to do is to flag those that pvp in some from or another so i would never group with them during pve, i dont need the "gg noob you dont got enough dps, you dont got the best stats and the best build" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> mentality to spill into my gaming sessions
I love PvP, in fact I play WoW mainly as a PvPer and I raid because my friends like having me in our 10 man raid group, now I know you won't do heroics or raid with me because I enjoy PvP. Thats totally a reasonable, enlightened, and friendly philosophy. I guess its your opinion but I find it revolting that you would segregate and judge people because they enjoy a part of a game that they think is fun.
I'll tell you right now I would never judge your build or dps for PvE mainly because I am a PvPer. I don't care if you die on a boss, I don't care if "I" end up doing half the DPS as you do, because when I take a break from PvP to PvE I am doing it to have fun. PvE is meant to be a cooperative group effort where you get together with friends and have a good time and I have no desire to be competitive in that kind of format.
I PvP because its hard and I enjoy it.
I enjoy fighting through the pressure that a 3v3 team can put out on one of my team members. Its a split second sensation that I never get when healing in PvE. Sure you have to follow boss mechanics, 10 feet to the left of a spawning pool or some special tactic with adds or clickables, but its never like arena healing. I use every totem, every cooldown, I have to fight to use a 1.5 second heal, I have to wind shear, dispel offensively and defensively whenever I can, I have to kite with ghostwolf and dodge line of sight, I have to hex at the exact moment when we need to relieve pressure or go for a kill, I have to frost shock melees and people running away, to measure when I need to use my trinket to break a cc, to use defensive cooldowns and steroids to keep my teamates alive all while dealing with an insane amount of damage from people I know are fighting just as hard as I am to climb to the top.
I have to learn to play against every class and spec which means learning to play every class and spec at least decently.
I don't insult what you enjoy in an mmo and I feel its unnecessary to do the same to me.
Would I ever try and kill another player when playing dungeons and dragons if I ever got a break from GMing? No I wouldn't, I don't think that attitude belongs at the table, and my players don't either. I hate to tell you but this game is not designed to be tabletop D&D or even close to it and I know because I demoed every class at PAX PRIME several times. Its plays like a dungeon crawler similar to Phantasy Star Online but with a more diverse combat. I think this game will have very fun PvP and I feel like it would be a damn shame if they didn't use that to their advantage because a section of their playerbase are upset by it because they might have to play with elitists (BECAUSE ELITISTS AREN'T IN PVE AMIRIGHT?!?!) when they do dungeons with random people.
PvP introduces a new consideration into traditional RPGs that strongly determine game design: competition. In competitive PvP, players want to engage in skillful gaming against others.
This generally requires class design to be rigidly defined so it can be tested to yield the desired balance.
On the other hand, many traditional lovers of RPGs are not interested in competition.
Balance is less of an issue since an interesting build's weakness can be buttressed by the strength of others in a group.Character advancement and encounter design can be more flexible as there are different design goals at work.
Thus, PvP and PvE players lock horns, wanting better game design for what they like to play. The solution is for game developers to start building games that focus on a niche not and on everything.
I realize they do lock horns in reality but from the points you are given they shouldn't. There is no direct conflict between what PvP players want and what PvE players want with your given argument. You have stated several things.
1. PvP players want balance and competition.
2. This requires moderate attention from a class balancing team to ensure most classes can compete.
3. PvE players don't care about competition.
4. In PvE Balance isn't much of an issue because encounter designs and team members make a classes weakness and strengths more flexible.
These points don't conflict with each other and in fact they seem to strengthen each side allowing a greater emphasis on balance and more ways to experience and have fun with a class. So this result contradicts what actually happens in reality.
The Philospher Ayn Rand wrote "I'll give you a hint. Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong."
Well the first statement seems true, I am a PvPer and I enjoy competition and want balance.
The second statement seems to be true as well. I can only guess but I think it would require time and effort on behalf of the PvP team to create a balanced fun experience.
For the third statement however I am not so sure. Many advocates for an exclusive PvE experience are the ones that claim a merger of the two cant work. They praise that they don't care about competition and yet they complain about PvP <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with PvE balance? They are the ones that complain that PvP players ruin their game when PvPers are openly welcome to share a world and a game they love with whoever wants it. For some reason I don't even think the same teams would work on the PvP and PvE portions of the game, they probably just mediate between each other, and try to make sure their on the same base with the class developers.
In reality they are resources that could be spent on solely PvE but the cost and time used for creating the content for PvP is substantially less than the money they can bring in from just catering to two audiences that shouldn't even conflict in the first place. Really the only reason not to include both forms of play within an MMO is a self entitled greed by PvE players that their form of entertainment is better than the other side and deserves more attention.
Hell PvE even gets way more attention and budget but you don't see PvP players complaining and making threads about PvE being a drag on their content.
Seriously I am getting tired of these threads and I am sure the devs are too.
I'll let bleed a little bit of my self proclaimed "PvP Elitism" by saying,
"Stop being upset children and learn to compromise instead of being dicks, its for the good of the game, if its entirely PvE F2P it will probably go under and you wont be able to play the game anyways."
I think you got that about right.
The fact you are ignoring however, is that your elite is a smaller group than such as it appears to be (buffs, you see).
The best way to deal with the likes of you, gm experience or not, is to kick <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from behind. As hard as can, until you drop. If they don't drop, you're in the wrong party.
Luckily, we will have advanced dungeon finder, grouping tool and guilds to use. We may need player tags like "elitist raider","laidback camper", "aestheticist backstabber" or something like that to help us discriminate.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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syfylisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
ok here we go again
1. Critical thinking works in both ways, it punish things that get hype with no reason and support those who get underrated for no reason. Now I'm suprised that some people write not only that pvp is bad, but that they know cryptic will do it bad. We don't know how it will look so we shouldn't panic now.
It may be true that cryptic didn't do well before with pvp but now it have support of PW, company with most likely biggest experience in mmo games and pvp.
Game is in development and we have on forum "Art and Fiction" section where you guys can create great influence to the game. So if you think something may be done bad why don't you use that part of forum to talk about problem and what's important don't say that something is bad but give clear answer "this part of game is broken in that way and here is my solution for it". Writing something in such a way give developer real information that they can work on not just empty cry where no one knows what you mean.
2. galvayra - your first point is hard to answer since it just white noise. Second point is better and there is simple answer to it.
You say that gear grind and power leveling is bad.. well so here is my question:
If it's all about story why do characters lvl up? Why don't you have all skills and every items straight from beginning so all you focus on is story?
There is simple answer to that. People like when game give them feeling of being a special, from zero to hero. People enjoy feeling of geting stronger and gear grinding is no different than lvling your char.
In fact to support that point in comics, books and movies people do like more characters that have human weakness so yes Superman may be the strongest hero ever but in reality people like weaker ones more. So from zero to hero give people lot of fun and lvling and geting better gear is a way of doing that.
3. I did play many mmo games and I was GM, manager of few big guild and I remember time when there was lot of flame wars or even when guy pm me that someone is laughing at him because he is "homosexual" but it was hard to notice that someone didn't want to party with someone else because he have low dps. It just looks like children's argument for someone who can't find way to communicate with others.
4. Name me a game where you need to pvp or you can't do pve content?
You say that gear grind and power leveling is bad.. well so here is my question:
If it's all about story why do characters lvl up? Why don't you have all skills and every items straight from beginning so all you focus on is story?
Um......character progression and development IS part of the story usually. Y'know, how they react to new things happening to them during a story or how they decide to use new powers in a morale system. That kind of thing is called "roleplaying", too.
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galvayraMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'll tell you right now I would never judge your build or dps for PvE mainly because I am a PvPer. I don't care if you die on a boss, I don't care if "I" end up doing half the DPS as you do, because when I take a break from PvP to PvE I am doing it to have fun.
Experience has taught me otherwise , for every one of you people that "pvp cause its fun" there are a thousand others that play it to win no matter what and lash out at anything and anyone that interferes with their goal.
I remember a time when i used to pvp too , back then we didnt even keep scores we just laughed and had a good time, what the hell happened, now you, your mother and everything you hold dear is getting cursed at for failing to perform up to the standards of these highly competitive people, who would want to be part of this besides like-minded individuals?
o
You say that gear grind and power leveling is bad.. well so here is my question:
If it's all about story why do characters lvl up? Why don't you have all skills and every items straight from beginning so all you focus on is story?
Did you came to be the way you are now the day you were born? or did the experience you had throughout your life until now made you into the person you are?
Its the same thing with leveling up, as you go through life, the experiences you take part in and the decisions you make shape you one way or the other
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
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syfylisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
as you go through life...
There are people that you will need to fight with and don't tell me that never happend. What you guys want is to create a wall where no one can influence what you are doing and everything that happends is a consequence of your own action but in reality that's not true and you can't have control on everything.
Second thing is what make you believe that in pve game only there will be no one to tell you you are weak player? Why is it even wrong to tell someone he is doing something wrong? Well if you play solo then no one give a damn but if you join a party and because of you I'm goin to lose half hour or more then it would be nice if you won't be so egoistic and say sorry.
I don't see PvP as being worth the mod time it's going to take to develop. PvP in a D&D mmorpg is always going to be an addon. Truth is, many other games already do pvp better then Neverwinter will. It's not going to be central to this game like it is in Guild Wars franchise. It will be created to amuse the small percentage of gamers that actually choose to play it.
Even Cryptic is annoyed with it. Don't take it from me though, just listen to what Cryptic's own STO PvP developer Dan "Gozer" Griffis stated this past May.
"Right now because PVP is in such bad shape we (the developers) have to decide if we think we can turn this problem around.Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -- Dan "Gozer" Griffis
Now as far as it being "bad" for MMOs, thats too broad of a question to answer as different genres and games would probably garner a different answer from most folks. However in Neverwinter Online, I just don't see the numbers, nor the point to do anything significant with pvp.
"Right now because PVP is in such bad shape we (the developers) have to decide if we think we can turn this problem around.Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -- Dan "Gozer" Griffis
.
The only reason Cryptic Dev said because they dont know how to design a decent PvP system. If they stop half assing a feature and sit down and see what WoW, GW2, even Rift pvp system works they might have a decent PvP system. If they dont understand it they shouldnt QQ about, but instead learn what they're doing wrong.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't believe WOTC are going to open a new eSports facility any time soon. They may eventually get down to licensing a pure pvp Game, but its not going to be Hobberball, because there has to be more to it.
In Faerun lore, the beginning of the story marks a kind of cataclysm that destroys much of the land and leaves it in a state of near-anarchy. There could be a massive war breaking out in the near future, with every faction fighting everybody else. If they made it possible to integrate instanced pvp with the official campaign or ugc, we could really have something at our hands. Of course, it hasn't been done before and it looks like a massive task to me.
Is this the Spellplague or upcoming Sundering?
And in regards to the last few posts, all I can say is it is a merge of D&D lore with action combat like Vindictus and Phantasy Star online similarities to it. Elites are not only in PvP they are everywhere and some of them ruin the whole elite thing by putting others down. But nobody is an elite that hunts down a new player and slaughters them endlessly. That's just a bully, not a "real" PvP player like extremists are not usually the views of an entire religious community. Getting awfully close to a minefield there on that last sentence so I'll stop (with absolutely no specifics) right here.
So I've been reading up on this game and so much of it looks promising and cool, and then I read that they want to impliment a robust PvP system, and I'm thinking...why...when has D&D ever had anything to do with PvP?
I played PnP D&D when there were softback manuals long before AD&D and played for years, and I've played countless cRPGs based on D&D. No PvP anywhere to be found.
So why?
Now, as to my hypothesis that PvP is bad for MMORPGs. The reason I say this is because what seems to be happening with many new MMORPGs, even when they are very good, is that people get sick of them quick, because they exhaust the content that appeals to them the most quickly.
This is because most new MMORPGs try to be everything for everybody. The offer tons of solo content, a decent amount of group content, and a decent amount of PvP content. Solo content is always utter ez-mode and gets chewed up quick - it's sort of like the single player campaign of MMORPGs. Usually there is a much smaller amount of group and PvP content by comparison even though that's what's supposed to keep you interested for the long haul once you wipe out solo ezmode in a few weeks.
There also is the issue of PvP vs PvE balancing never really working. What's good for PvE isn't always good for PvP, and vice versa, and nothing is more absolutely annoying as a PvE player than having the game you love get mutilated in the name of PvP balance. Many PvP players also don't want much to do with the PvE side of the PvE MMORPG they're playing (logic I've questioned for ages but that's another discussion).
Some players like all types of content, and I'm not against PvP, I just prefer high quality and large volumes of group-based PvE.
You might also argue that D&D isn't a solo game either. PnP D&D is almost always about grouping up with friends. Most cRPGs of D&D feature parties, not soloists, or at worst, a single player with companion NPCs and co-op available.
So, I would further contend that to make a truly enduring and excellent D&D MMORPG right now, one should forget about PvP entirely. Don't waste a single dev resource on it. Don't bastardize your PvE game for it. Instead, focus all of that extra time and effort on making megatons of group content - the type of content that will keep people playing for months instead of weeks, and that leads into more and more group-based PvE content to keep playing for years/forever (obviously it's not really possible to make enough content to keep people going for year+ out of the gate, at least not reasonably so).
I've read this game will have some content that scales from solo to any sized group. That's brilliant and as it SHOULD be as long as the bigger groups are the priority. Solo should be tolerated and facilitated but grouping should be where the big prizes and big fun are at (since quality grouping is worlds more fun than solo, period).
Again, it's not about being against PvP - it's about being pro quality PvE. There are tons of single player games out there. There are tons of PvP games out there. There are lots of MMORPGs with PvP. Why not be different?
There are also very few truly excellent MMORPGs, and even damn good ones that've come out recently have had fans turn on them very quickly, and IMO, it's because these games try to be everything to everybody and end up being lean on content for any one type of player.
For D&D, the one type of player should be the one who likes to do group PvP content, because THAT is what D&D is all about, and that's what this game should be all about.
Watch and see, if this game comes out with a boatload of solo ez mode, a handful of dungeons and a handful of battle grounds, with an ultimately weak and lean set of endgame options, it'll thrive for a few months then players will turn on Cryptic and lots of players will bail to do something else.
Argue or disagree all you like, but remember this previous paragraph, because it's hard to dispute that even the best MMORPGs coming out are having problems retaining players past the first few months.
Oh yeah, you know what happens in these games when players start bailing in droves? The developers panic and start mutilating the game trying to figure out some way to get people to stick around and usually what they do is making things worse instead of better because then they end up alienating segments of players while trying to appease some other segment. If you don't have fractured segments of players to begin with (single player gamers vs pve groupers vs pvpers) you wouldn't ever have this problem, right?
I don't necessarily agree PvP is bad for a game (unless its open world ganking/griefing) as long as its consentual and meaningful i.e. something like Dark Age of Camelot. I personally am not a fan of PvP because I'm more of a casual 2-3 hour per day type player who loves persistant worlds and I do want to see most forms of game play catered too, such as the soloer, the grouper and the hardcore 16 hour a day no lifer.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
Well I finally have some time to respond to this thread...
The simplest answer to the question is, No PvP is not bad for MMO's.
However Neverwinter is a completely different matter.
Now while this is in all technicallity my opinion it's more like an unwritten law: PvP is put in most MMO's in order to appeal to a minority of players who wouldn't have any interest in the game if it wasn't there.
If you take polls of MMO Players unless the game is designed around PvP, such as Guild Wars, generally there will be a standard bell curve with a few die hard PvPers, a few diehard I wish PvP was removed from the game and a bunch of people who fall in-between. Depending on which game the survey is for the gamers may be more or less PvP heavy but overall it's a fairly even playing field.
In a game such as Neverwinter the nicest way to put it is that PvP is being added for no reason other than to market to people who aren't part of the D&D community. Most MMO Gamer's, in general, prefer the option to PvP even if they do it once every never. If PvP isn't included in Neverwinter then likely half of the potential market would be immediately put off before ever trying out the game. If Cryptic decided to not add PvP into the game 95%+ of the people who were already interested in the game wouldn't be too upset at the prospect.
As others have said D&D is, by default, a cooperative game. While roleplaying bickering may end up with some jabs player's don't play Pen and Paper D&D to PvP. Frankly most of the D&D Playerbase wouldn't consider PvPing except on extremely rare occasions, if at all.
While this may be harsh this is quite arguably the truth. You are all free to state how much each of you as an individual will look forward to PvPing without any backlash but from a realistic point of view this is a minority view.
Personally I am in the minority of people who wants so little to do with PvP in PvE Games that I don't even want to hear it. I'd be happier if the letter P, v and P never went near each other in 90% of MMO's. I'm in a minority.
Ok, with all that negativity stated I'll go back to my initial unwritten law...
While I may prefer to nay say PvP to no end PvP is an important draw factor to any MMO. Many players play games only to PvP. I have dozens of friends who will not even look at a game unless the game has some form of PvP system.
As much as I or others may not want PvP to be added it has to be in order for the game to be as successful as it possibly can be.
As long PvP is a separate add-on which no player is ever, under any circumstances, motivated to put themselves in a PvP situation for a reason other than to PvP I don't think either side of this debate should care either way. While I fully agree that every single second spent on PvP development would be better used as nap time for developers PvP is an important part of any MMO's appeal and it has to be included. But for the love of Mystra, PvP should be so far optional that anybody who doesn't want to PvP shouldn't know it exists.
There are people that you will need to fight with and don't tell me that never happend. What you guys want is to create a wall where no one can influence what you are doing and everything that happends is a consequence of your own action but in reality that's not true and you can't have control on everything.
Game mechanics are just a frame on which a world infinitely larger sits on, competitive players just want to win at those mechanics and ignore the rest of the world that is why i don't like to pvp,not because someone can influence my experience
i WANT someone to influence my experience that is the whole point of playing online, but any influence does not equal good influence i'm trying to cherry pick the things that make my experience pleasant
Second thing is what make you believe that in pve game only there will be no one to tell you you are weak player? Why is it even wrong to tell someone he is doing something wrong? Well if you play solo then no one give a damn but if you join a party and because of you I'm goin to lose half hour or more then it would be nice if you won't be so egoistic and say sorry.
Let me give you two examples then
PvE in WoW its a highly competitive scene, even at the basic thing as killing a creature(first player that hits it "tags" it and no one else can get anything from it), the failure of one person can make other people fail, guilds compete for world firsts and they get a lot of coverage and fame and other players try to emulate them and again when someone does not perform up the the standards they get bashed instead of being taught how to play better cause its easier to say "u suck" then explaining what went wrong and how to improve.
This i view as bad.
Pve in Guild Wars 2 , you don't compete with anyone, everything you do in a quest area helps everyone around you, each player is responsible for their own health, their own success , if one fails it almost never means that the rest will fail, you don't even need good gear or a build, you can do almost everything in that game with a character that is tailored to your liking and you don't have to compromise
This i view as good.
And to my experience so far i haven't had a single person telling me i suck in pve during GW2 and there were times when i died like 20 times in a single dungeon, they must have done something right
When i went to PvP, first tournament i participate in what do i get? " You suck dude, god what a noob cant even hold a point"
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
[...] you are weak player? [...] Why is it even wrong to tell someone he is doing something wrong? Well if you play solo then no one give a damn but if you join a party and because of you I'm goin to lose half hour or more then it would be nice if you won't be so egoistic and say sorry.
Because ... after apologizing for the hundredth time ( some people make many mistakes, others never apologize not seeing their own mistakes ) you come to expect a change in the behavior of your fellow player. They should stop saying "damn you wrong spell/ability" and show patience instead. Cooperation actually requires people to tolerate playstyles that are different, maybe flawed but also quite interesting. If you refuse to show patience/tolerance, you may not claim (imho) to be called a coop player, even if you play pwe style. So pwe is different from pvp in the way that there is NOT just one goal: to win. You can not win in coop. winning is for norbs. Coop player WIN by LOSING for party.
Its not that hard to understand but you gotta think it through.
iamtruthseeker : this thread is not about crazy extremists, but about pvp elites that ruin the pwe gameplay. (or did it go off topic ?) I get confused again ... political extremists are only extreme in the eyes of the opposing (religious) faction. Members of the own faction are likely to support them at least in principle. If you put a proven pvp team on a raid. They will run through there at top speed just like they would do on a pvp raid. Any cooper that dares to join that stampede will have to adapt quite a bit or perish. Thats not good and there should be some kind of mechanic to prevent stampeding. I guress.
If you take polls of MMO Players unless the game is designed around PvP, such as Guild Wars, generally there will be a standard bell curve with a few die hard PvPers, a few diehard I wish PvP was removed from the game and a bunch of people who fall in-between. Depending on which game the survey is for the gamers may be more or less PvP heavy but overall it's a fairly even playing field.
Would you say that a majority of players (targeted player base, not the alleged dnd community) would support "ramboing" in this game if asked about their oppinion of how much soloing vs. coop they would want to see ?
Would you say that a majority of players (targeted player base, not the alleged dnd community) would support "ramboing" in this game if asked about their oppinion of how much soloing vs. coop they would want to see ?
I think I would have to test out the game for myself first, to see if I actually have FUN soloing, or if I really do need group support. It might be hard to ask a lot of the people here what kind of playstyle they favor without even playing the game yet and getting used to the mechanics.
Personal opinion from a person who prefers solo and PvE: PvP is fine as long as people have an option. I have recently spent a year playing and moderating for another MMORPG, playing every style available: solo, group, PvE, PvE. There will never be a consensus on this topic simply because everhyone has their own person preference. You might as well ask whether a person should be a Democrat or a Republican, eat meat or eat only vegetables. People simply take sides and stick to what they find is best.
I suggest offering all options and letting people decide what they want. It does no one any service to try to force your opinions on other people.
Every MMO board that I've read the PvP section of has tons of complaints on how the system is broken and not working correctly. Either the mechanics of the actual combat are wonky or the way one cues for the instances is, or something else is imbalanced.
Also, nine in ten PvP players are elitist in the sense that they wish to push the envelope far beyond what the casual player is comfortable with.
Yes, it's a choice...as long as developers -let- players choose to engage in the activity or not. CLEARLY designated PvP servers could serve for open world PvP, or clearly designated areas for PvP. Either way, there will be complaints about it.
It (PvP) seems to be a very heated subject of debate and discussion, for which I am sure there is no end in sight.
There are pros and cons for it, I am sure. Being one of the people that do not PvP at all, I only see the cons. Mostly. The only pro I see is having it in an MMO will attract more customers. That's it.
Personally? No PvP in MMO's. It doesn't belong. Like a previous poster said, fine for FPSMMO and RTSMMO, but MMORPG? No thanks.
Every MMO board that I've read the PvP section of has tons of complaints on how the system is broken and not working correctly. Either the mechanics of the actual combat are wonky or the way one cues for the instances is, or something else is imbalanced.
Also, nine in ten PvP players are elitist in the sense that they wish to push the envelope far beyond what the casual player is comfortable with.
Yes, it's a choice...as long as developers -let- players choose to engage in the activity or not. CLEARLY designated PvP servers could serve for open world PvP, or clearly designated areas for PvP. Either way, there will be complaints about it.
It (PvP) seems to be a very heated subject of debate and discussion, for which I am sure there is no end in sight.
There are pros and cons for it, I am sure. Being one of the people that do not PvP at all, I only see the cons. Mostly. The only pro I see is having it in an MMO will attract more customers. That's it.
Personally? No PvP in MMO's. It doesn't belong. Like a previous poster said, fine for FPSMMO and RTSMMO, but MMORPG? No thanks.
9 out of 10 PvPers are elitist, this is scientific fact right?
9 out of 10 PvPers are elitist, this is scientific fact right?
It has numbers, right?
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syfylisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
well people complain about ballance in pvp because small changes can make huge difference when in pve there is not that much of a challenge. In pve you can find one way that always will work on same mob but in pvp people don't let you use same trick second time.
Would you say that a majority of players (targeted player base, not the alleged dnd community) would support "ramboing" in this game if asked about their oppinion of how much soloing vs. coop they would want to see ?
As stated that is an opinion which can't be formed until after a person plays the game but my definition of "Ramboing" and "Soloing" are completely different. When playing an online game grouping can't be forced to the extent it is in PnP.
I don't like playing with other people 100% of the time, especially with random players. I don't think this topic can be concluded as simply as PvP because players are truly split on this. I love playing PnP D&D and obviously you need to play in a group to enjoy it but in a video game I prefer a much smaller group. I have mentioned how I used to play NWN with my uncle and build characters which simply broke the game because our personallity prefers to solo or duo rather than play with a lot of people. That won't change in Neverwinter.
I know for a fact they are supporting solo gameplay and for that I am grateful. I don't want to see Rambo's like myself in Neverwinter but I wouldn't be Rambo if they actively supported allowing players to choose what style of gameplay they want.
And really that's what this discussion boils down to. If you want to PvP you should be able to. If you want to not know PvP Exists that shouldn't effect your gameplay or rewards. If you want to play alone or in groups it shouldn't matter.
Within reason players should be able to choose their own game.
I don't want PvP in the game...but I won't fight it being developed for those that do as long as I'm in no way effected for playing *D&D.*
Nope. No numbers at all. Yes, it's a blanket statement. Nope, not apologizing for it or trying to quantify it other than in my experience, that statement has held true for years. I might add as well that the general attitude of the PvP players on boards I've read and encountered in games has totally and completely proved the statement true without a shadow of a doubt for me.
Comments
The problem does lie in PvP for MMOs. PvP introduces a new consideration into traditional RPGs that strongly determine game design: competition. In competitive PvP, players want to engage in skillful gaming against others. Real competition requires a level playing field so that the outcomes are based on skill and talent (as much as possible). Thus there is an obsession with class balance so that no one is left out. This generally requires class design to be rigidly defined so it can be tested to yield the desired balance.
On the other hand, many traditional lovers of RPGs are not interested in competition. They want to log in and go on an adventure in a different world. They want to form a group and enter a vampire lair, flee in terror from a gelatinous club, banish a demon back to lower hells, and trade their loot at the bazaar. There is a completely different experience these players are looking for. Balance is less of an issue since an interesting build's weakness can be buttressed by the strength of others in a group. Character advancement and encounter design can be more flexible as there are different design goals at work.
Thus, PvP and PvE players lock horns, wanting better game design for what they like to play. The solution is for game developers to start building games that focus on a niche not and on everything. Designing for a niche will concentrate players that really want that experience. All the energy of development can be given over to that task, without waste, creating a superior product. And you don't lose most of your players because that niche wasn't made suboptimal by needing to consider other design goals.
There are other serious issues for MMOs today like the need for player-driven content and monetization, but that's for other threads.
Except that there are so many different factions that would fight each other it's ridiculous. NW has the potential of having PvP in a massive scale simply due to the fact that there are so many different factions out that that are rivals or simply pursuing their own agendas.
And see The Secret World. There is no simple way to switch factions unless it's built into the game as PvP inclusive; trust me I've been there with many games promising otherwise. Therefore, the Cryptic method of instanced PvP and/or locked faction will be used still. With the lack of factions in this game, your PvP will be instanced then.
In Faerun lore, the beginning of the story marks a kind of cataclysm that destroys much of the land and leaves it in a state of near-anarchy. There could be a massive war breaking out in the near future, with every faction fighting everybody else. If they made it possible to integrate instanced pvp with the official campaign or ugc, we could really have something at our hands. Of course, it hasn't been done before and it looks like a massive task to me.
You don't go to a restaurant to compete in an ad hoc" lets see who eats the fastest" competition, you don't drive your car home and suddenly decide "lets race"
If you want competition you go compete in a designate place and/or sport you don't change the environment to suit your needs or that is how it should be
I always imagined MMORPGS as some sort of open books, where you would be a character in that book and progres through the story, it was never about the gear grind and the power leveling those things were brought by the pvp community ,the people who try to maximize their competive nature at the cost of everything else
At this point we know for sure that there will be pvp, at the very least they didn't made it mandatory so i wont have to participate in it, now all they need to do is to flag those that pvp in some from or another so i would never group with them during pve, i dont need the "gg noob you dont got enough dps, you dont got the best stats and the best build" <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> mentality to spill into my gaming sessions
I love PvP, in fact I play WoW mainly as a PvPer and I raid because my friends like having me in our 10 man raid group, now I know you won't do heroics or raid with me because I enjoy PvP. Thats totally a reasonable, enlightened, and friendly philosophy. I guess its your opinion but I find it revolting that you would segregate and judge people because they enjoy a part of a game that they think is fun.
I'll tell you right now I would never judge your build or dps for PvE mainly because I am a PvPer. I don't care if you die on a boss, I don't care if "I" end up doing half the DPS as you do, because when I take a break from PvP to PvE I am doing it to have fun. PvE is meant to be a cooperative group effort where you get together with friends and have a good time and I have no desire to be competitive in that kind of format.
I PvP because its hard and I enjoy it.
I enjoy fighting through the pressure that a 3v3 team can put out on one of my team members. Its a split second sensation that I never get when healing in PvE. Sure you have to follow boss mechanics, 10 feet to the left of a spawning pool or some special tactic with adds or clickables, but its never like arena healing. I use every totem, every cooldown, I have to fight to use a 1.5 second heal, I have to wind shear, dispel offensively and defensively whenever I can, I have to kite with ghostwolf and dodge line of sight, I have to hex at the exact moment when we need to relieve pressure or go for a kill, I have to frost shock melees and people running away, to measure when I need to use my trinket to break a cc, to use defensive cooldowns and steroids to keep my teamates alive all while dealing with an insane amount of damage from people I know are fighting just as hard as I am to climb to the top.
I have to learn to play against every class and spec which means learning to play every class and spec at least decently.
I don't insult what you enjoy in an mmo and I feel its unnecessary to do the same to me.
Would I ever try and kill another player when playing dungeons and dragons if I ever got a break from GMing? No I wouldn't, I don't think that attitude belongs at the table, and my players don't either. I hate to tell you but this game is not designed to be tabletop D&D or even close to it and I know because I demoed every class at PAX PRIME several times. Its plays like a dungeon crawler similar to Phantasy Star Online but with a more diverse combat. I think this game will have very fun PvP and I feel like it would be a damn shame if they didn't use that to their advantage because a section of their playerbase are upset by it because they might have to play with elitists (BECAUSE ELITISTS AREN'T IN PVE AMIRIGHT?!?!) when they do dungeons with random people.
This is a true and fair point.
Both of these a valid points as well.
I realize they do lock horns in reality but from the points you are given they shouldn't. There is no direct conflict between what PvP players want and what PvE players want with your given argument. You have stated several things.
1. PvP players want balance and competition.
2. This requires moderate attention from a class balancing team to ensure most classes can compete.
3. PvE players don't care about competition.
4. In PvE Balance isn't much of an issue because encounter designs and team members make a classes weakness and strengths more flexible.
These points don't conflict with each other and in fact they seem to strengthen each side allowing a greater emphasis on balance and more ways to experience and have fun with a class. So this result contradicts what actually happens in reality.
The Philospher Ayn Rand wrote "I'll give you a hint. Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong."
Well the first statement seems true, I am a PvPer and I enjoy competition and want balance.
The second statement seems to be true as well. I can only guess but I think it would require time and effort on behalf of the PvP team to create a balanced fun experience.
For the third statement however I am not so sure. Many advocates for an exclusive PvE experience are the ones that claim a merger of the two cant work. They praise that they don't care about competition and yet they complain about PvP <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with PvE balance? They are the ones that complain that PvP players ruin their game when PvPers are openly welcome to share a world and a game they love with whoever wants it. For some reason I don't even think the same teams would work on the PvP and PvE portions of the game, they probably just mediate between each other, and try to make sure their on the same base with the class developers.
In reality they are resources that could be spent on solely PvE but the cost and time used for creating the content for PvP is substantially less than the money they can bring in from just catering to two audiences that shouldn't even conflict in the first place. Really the only reason not to include both forms of play within an MMO is a self entitled greed by PvE players that their form of entertainment is better than the other side and deserves more attention.
Hell PvE even gets way more attention and budget but you don't see PvP players complaining and making threads about PvE being a drag on their content.
Seriously I am getting tired of these threads and I am sure the devs are too.
I'll let bleed a little bit of my self proclaimed "PvP Elitism" by saying,
"Stop being upset children and learn to compromise instead of being dicks, its for the good of the game, if its entirely PvE F2P it will probably go under and you wont be able to play the game anyways."
I think you got that about right.
The fact you are ignoring however, is that your elite is a smaller group than such as it appears to be (buffs, you see).
The best way to deal with the likes of you, gm experience or not, is to kick <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from behind. As hard as can, until you drop. If they don't drop, you're in the wrong party.
Luckily, we will have advanced dungeon finder, grouping tool and guilds to use. We may need player tags like "elitist raider","laidback camper", "aestheticist backstabber" or something like that to help us discriminate.
1. Critical thinking works in both ways, it punish things that get hype with no reason and support those who get underrated for no reason. Now I'm suprised that some people write not only that pvp is bad, but that they know cryptic will do it bad. We don't know how it will look so we shouldn't panic now.
It may be true that cryptic didn't do well before with pvp but now it have support of PW, company with most likely biggest experience in mmo games and pvp.
Game is in development and we have on forum "Art and Fiction" section where you guys can create great influence to the game. So if you think something may be done bad why don't you use that part of forum to talk about problem and what's important don't say that something is bad but give clear answer "this part of game is broken in that way and here is my solution for it". Writing something in such a way give developer real information that they can work on not just empty cry where no one knows what you mean.
2. galvayra - your first point is hard to answer since it just white noise. Second point is better and there is simple answer to it.
You say that gear grind and power leveling is bad.. well so here is my question:
If it's all about story why do characters lvl up? Why don't you have all skills and every items straight from beginning so all you focus on is story?
There is simple answer to that. People like when game give them feeling of being a special, from zero to hero. People enjoy feeling of geting stronger and gear grinding is no different than lvling your char.
In fact to support that point in comics, books and movies people do like more characters that have human weakness so yes Superman may be the strongest hero ever but in reality people like weaker ones more. So from zero to hero give people lot of fun and lvling and geting better gear is a way of doing that.
3. I did play many mmo games and I was GM, manager of few big guild and I remember time when there was lot of flame wars or even when guy pm me that someone is laughing at him because he is "homosexual" but it was hard to notice that someone didn't want to party with someone else because he have low dps. It just looks like children's argument for someone who can't find way to communicate with others.
4. Name me a game where you need to pvp or you can't do pve content?
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
Um......character progression and development IS part of the story usually. Y'know, how they react to new things happening to them during a story or how they decide to use new powers in a morale system. That kind of thing is called "roleplaying", too.
Experience has taught me otherwise , for every one of you people that "pvp cause its fun" there are a thousand others that play it to win no matter what and lash out at anything and anyone that interferes with their goal.
I remember a time when i used to pvp too , back then we didnt even keep scores we just laughed and had a good time, what the hell happened, now you, your mother and everything you hold dear is getting cursed at for failing to perform up to the standards of these highly competitive people, who would want to be part of this besides like-minded individuals?
Did you came to be the way you are now the day you were born? or did the experience you had throughout your life until now made you into the person you are?
Its the same thing with leveling up, as you go through life, the experiences you take part in and the decisions you make shape you one way or the other
There are people that you will need to fight with and don't tell me that never happend. What you guys want is to create a wall where no one can influence what you are doing and everything that happends is a consequence of your own action but in reality that's not true and you can't have control on everything.
Second thing is what make you believe that in pve game only there will be no one to tell you you are weak player? Why is it even wrong to tell someone he is doing something wrong? Well if you play solo then no one give a damn but if you join a party and because of you I'm goin to lose half hour or more then it would be nice if you won't be so egoistic and say sorry.
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
Even Cryptic is annoyed with it. Don't take it from me though, just listen to what Cryptic's own STO PvP developer Dan "Gozer" Griffis stated this past May.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/12/cryptic-developer-star-trek-online-pvp-is-fail/
"Right now because PVP is in such bad shape we (the developers) have to decide if we think we can turn this problem around. Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -- Dan "Gozer" Griffis
Now as far as it being "bad" for MMOs, thats too broad of a question to answer as different genres and games would probably garner a different answer from most folks. However in Neverwinter Online, I just don't see the numbers, nor the point to do anything significant with pvp.
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The only reason Cryptic Dev said because they dont know how to design a decent PvP system. If they stop half assing a feature and sit down and see what WoW, GW2, even Rift pvp system works they might have a decent PvP system. If they dont understand it they shouldnt QQ about, but instead learn what they're doing wrong.
Is this the Spellplague or upcoming Sundering?
And in regards to the last few posts, all I can say is it is a merge of D&D lore with action combat like Vindictus and Phantasy Star online similarities to it. Elites are not only in PvP they are everywhere and some of them ruin the whole elite thing by putting others down. But nobody is an elite that hunts down a new player and slaughters them endlessly. That's just a bully, not a "real" PvP player like extremists are not usually the views of an entire religious community. Getting awfully close to a minefield there on that last sentence so I'll stop (with absolutely no specifics) right here.
I don't necessarily agree PvP is bad for a game (unless its open world ganking/griefing) as long as its consentual and meaningful i.e. something like Dark Age of Camelot. I personally am not a fan of PvP because I'm more of a casual 2-3 hour per day type player who loves persistant worlds and I do want to see most forms of game play catered too, such as the soloer, the grouper and the hardcore 16 hour a day no lifer.
Character is what a man is in the dark
The simplest answer to the question is, No PvP is not bad for MMO's.
However Neverwinter is a completely different matter.
Now while this is in all technicallity my opinion it's more like an unwritten law: PvP is put in most MMO's in order to appeal to a minority of players who wouldn't have any interest in the game if it wasn't there.
If you take polls of MMO Players unless the game is designed around PvP, such as Guild Wars, generally there will be a standard bell curve with a few die hard PvPers, a few diehard I wish PvP was removed from the game and a bunch of people who fall in-between. Depending on which game the survey is for the gamers may be more or less PvP heavy but overall it's a fairly even playing field.
In a game such as Neverwinter the nicest way to put it is that PvP is being added for no reason other than to market to people who aren't part of the D&D community. Most MMO Gamer's, in general, prefer the option to PvP even if they do it once every never. If PvP isn't included in Neverwinter then likely half of the potential market would be immediately put off before ever trying out the game. If Cryptic decided to not add PvP into the game 95%+ of the people who were already interested in the game wouldn't be too upset at the prospect.
As others have said D&D is, by default, a cooperative game. While roleplaying bickering may end up with some jabs player's don't play Pen and Paper D&D to PvP. Frankly most of the D&D Playerbase wouldn't consider PvPing except on extremely rare occasions, if at all.
While this may be harsh this is quite arguably the truth. You are all free to state how much each of you as an individual will look forward to PvPing without any backlash but from a realistic point of view this is a minority view.
Personally I am in the minority of people who wants so little to do with PvP in PvE Games that I don't even want to hear it. I'd be happier if the letter P, v and P never went near each other in 90% of MMO's. I'm in a minority.
Ok, with all that negativity stated I'll go back to my initial unwritten law...
While I may prefer to nay say PvP to no end PvP is an important draw factor to any MMO. Many players play games only to PvP. I have dozens of friends who will not even look at a game unless the game has some form of PvP system.
As much as I or others may not want PvP to be added it has to be in order for the game to be as successful as it possibly can be.
As long PvP is a separate add-on which no player is ever, under any circumstances, motivated to put themselves in a PvP situation for a reason other than to PvP I don't think either side of this debate should care either way. While I fully agree that every single second spent on PvP development would be better used as nap time for developers PvP is an important part of any MMO's appeal and it has to be included. But for the love of Mystra, PvP should be so far optional that anybody who doesn't want to PvP shouldn't know it exists.
Game mechanics are just a frame on which a world infinitely larger sits on, competitive players just want to win at those mechanics and ignore the rest of the world that is why i don't like to pvp,not because someone can influence my experience
i WANT someone to influence my experience that is the whole point of playing online, but any influence does not equal good influence i'm trying to cherry pick the things that make my experience pleasant
Let me give you two examples then
PvE in WoW its a highly competitive scene, even at the basic thing as killing a creature(first player that hits it "tags" it and no one else can get anything from it), the failure of one person can make other people fail, guilds compete for world firsts and they get a lot of coverage and fame and other players try to emulate them and again when someone does not perform up the the standards they get bashed instead of being taught how to play better cause its easier to say "u suck" then explaining what went wrong and how to improve.
This i view as bad.
Pve in Guild Wars 2 , you don't compete with anyone, everything you do in a quest area helps everyone around you, each player is responsible for their own health, their own success , if one fails it almost never means that the rest will fail, you don't even need good gear or a build, you can do almost everything in that game with a character that is tailored to your liking and you don't have to compromise
This i view as good.
And to my experience so far i haven't had a single person telling me i suck in pve during GW2 and there were times when i died like 20 times in a single dungeon, they must have done something right
When i went to PvP, first tournament i participate in what do i get? " You suck dude, god what a noob cant even hold a point"
Because ... after apologizing for the hundredth time ( some people make many mistakes, others never apologize not seeing their own mistakes ) you come to expect a change in the behavior of your fellow player. They should stop saying "damn you wrong spell/ability" and show patience instead. Cooperation actually requires people to tolerate playstyles that are different, maybe flawed but also quite interesting. If you refuse to show patience/tolerance, you may not claim (imho) to be called a coop player, even if you play pwe style. So pwe is different from pvp in the way that there is NOT just one goal: to win. You can not win in coop. winning is for norbs. Coop player WIN by LOSING for party.
Its not that hard to understand but you gotta think it through.
iamtruthseeker : this thread is not about crazy extremists, but about pvp elites that ruin the pwe gameplay. (or did it go off topic ?) I get confused again ... political extremists are only extreme in the eyes of the opposing (religious) faction. Members of the own faction are likely to support them at least in principle. If you put a proven pvp team on a raid. They will run through there at top speed just like they would do on a pvp raid. Any cooper that dares to join that stampede will have to adapt quite a bit or perish. Thats not good and there should be some kind of mechanic to prevent stampeding. I guress.
Would you say that a majority of players (targeted player base, not the alleged dnd community) would support "ramboing" in this game if asked about their oppinion of how much soloing vs. coop they would want to see ?
I think I would have to test out the game for myself first, to see if I actually have FUN soloing, or if I really do need group support. It might be hard to ask a lot of the people here what kind of playstyle they favor without even playing the game yet and getting used to the mechanics.
I suggest offering all options and letting people decide what they want. It does no one any service to try to force your opinions on other people.
Also, nine in ten PvP players are elitist in the sense that they wish to push the envelope far beyond what the casual player is comfortable with.
Yes, it's a choice...as long as developers -let- players choose to engage in the activity or not. CLEARLY designated PvP servers could serve for open world PvP, or clearly designated areas for PvP. Either way, there will be complaints about it.
It (PvP) seems to be a very heated subject of debate and discussion, for which I am sure there is no end in sight.
There are pros and cons for it, I am sure. Being one of the people that do not PvP at all, I only see the cons. Mostly. The only pro I see is having it in an MMO will attract more customers. That's it.
Personally? No PvP in MMO's. It doesn't belong. Like a previous poster said, fine for FPSMMO and RTSMMO, but MMORPG? No thanks.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
9 out of 10 PvPers are elitist, this is scientific fact right?
It has numbers, right?
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
As stated that is an opinion which can't be formed until after a person plays the game but my definition of "Ramboing" and "Soloing" are completely different. When playing an online game grouping can't be forced to the extent it is in PnP.
I don't like playing with other people 100% of the time, especially with random players. I don't think this topic can be concluded as simply as PvP because players are truly split on this. I love playing PnP D&D and obviously you need to play in a group to enjoy it but in a video game I prefer a much smaller group. I have mentioned how I used to play NWN with my uncle and build characters which simply broke the game because our personallity prefers to solo or duo rather than play with a lot of people. That won't change in Neverwinter.
I know for a fact they are supporting solo gameplay and for that I am grateful. I don't want to see Rambo's like myself in Neverwinter but I wouldn't be Rambo if they actively supported allowing players to choose what style of gameplay they want.
And really that's what this discussion boils down to. If you want to PvP you should be able to. If you want to not know PvP Exists that shouldn't effect your gameplay or rewards. If you want to play alone or in groups it shouldn't matter.
Within reason players should be able to choose their own game.
I don't want PvP in the game...but I won't fight it being developed for those that do as long as I'm in no way effected for playing *D&D.*
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.