This doesn't change the nature of as many mechanics or feats as people are trying to believe (stop truthseeker, you know better ) It just puts the action int he players hands which makes no sense to have a hit/miss system in a game that is not turn based.
3E/4E put a ton of weight on builds and stats defining your character abilities, and a much smaller weight on the player abilities mattering. It is not a small change when you invert that relationship, because it's tantamount to removing dice from the game. We have seen to-hit roll go, we've also seen much smaller variance on player damage output than D&D (let alone most MMOs). Like I suggested, why settle for rolling a D20 to pick locks when we could have an elder scrolls minigame that challenges your timing and reflexes just like combat. No this doesn't necessarily make a bad game, not at all. But as you put more and more emphasis on player skill over RNG, you move further from PnP, and then you have to adjust other things away from PnP to keep the game balanced.
For example there's not any way to easily translate average miss chance on AC to average attacks evaded, as that depends on player skill, perception and experience, readable animations and animation speed on the monsters, the opportunity cost of using active defense instead of continuing to attack, cooldowns on defensive skills, "big" attacks vs "small" attacks, etc. etc. The only way to balance that properly is playtesting, and in that process you will need to adjust how much damage a mob hit inflicts, the damage, effects, and cooldowns of individual powers, etc. etc. until it's very different from what is on the books.
It might also help to point out that 4E, particularly PHB 4E, was way better balanced than 3E (if nothing else was good about the system.) We do not need to settle for DDO level of brokenness, and if so, once you start mucking with some aspects of 4E, you're going to need to adjust others to bring things back into balance. Again no reason you can't make a great game, it's just one that is increasingly distant from PnP rules.
3E/4E put a ton of weight on builds and stats defining your character abilities, and a much smaller weight on the player abilities mattering. It is not a small change when you invert that relationship, because it's tantamount to removing dice from the game. We have seen to-hit roll go, we've also seen much smaller variance on player damage output than D&D (let alone most MMOs). Like I suggested, why settle for rolling a D20 to pick locks when we could have an elder scrolls minigame that challenges your timing and reflexes just like combat. No this doesn't necessarily make a bad game, not at all. But as you put more and more emphasis on player skill over RNG, you move further from PnP, and then you have to adjust other things away from PnP to keep the game balanced.
For example there's not any way to easily translate average miss chance on AC to average attacks evaded, as that depends on player skill, perception and experience, readable animations and animation speed on the monsters, the opportunity cost of using active defense instead of continuing to attack, cooldowns on defensive skills, "big" attacks vs "small" attacks, etc. etc. The only way to balance that properly is playtesting, and in that process you will need to adjust how much damage a mob hit inflicts, the damage, effects, and cooldowns of individual powers, etc. etc. until it's very different from what is on the books.
It might also help to point out that 4E, particularly PHB 4E, was way better balanced than 3E (if nothing else was good about the system.) We do not need to settle for DDO level of brokenness, and if so, once you start mucking with some aspects of 4E, you're going to need to adjust others to bring things back into balance. Again no reason you can't make a great game, it's just one that is increasingly distant from PnP rules.
So far I see people confusing the tools as being what makes D&D. They are iconic to the system, but never are what has made D&D. Seems to be a bit of reverse logic. Rules change, even in their own iteration, so they can't be so inflexible, and there isn't going to be a visible die at any time you see except in turn based games designed to visually show you the die.
Hmm lets see if this makes helps to me DnD was always about numbers along with the fun of adventuring. The great thing about it being numbers oriented was that i didn't have to have super MOrtal kombat clicking skills to "win" i could work on my character and make him stronger etc.
The hit or miss thing in DDO isn't lame. If my toon cant tank HoX i can try getting better gear or improving my build to get more AC for the simple reason that it is a number thing.
Again look at arcade games back in the day you could only improve your game so much and that was that, either u had it or or you didn't, not so with DnD and that was the appeal.
Its kind of like taking a nerd thing and trying to turn it into a jock thing.
Dunno maybe the younger generation doesn't get this so much, since video games have since then become "popular" and "cool".
Literally watching video games be put in arcades, I "grew up" with them. That doesn't mean I want to do a 16-combo button-stick move now decades later all the time. I like the maturity of making something and watching it grow. Nothing wrong with twitch, just want D&D to be more than that. I like half life or assassin's creed when in the mood for that, and my RPG-action games when I'm in the mood for strategy with my action.
3E/4E put a ton of weight on builds and stats defining your character abilities, and a much smaller weight on the player abilities mattering. It is not a small change when you invert that relationship, because it's tantamount to removing dice from the game. We have seen to-hit roll go, we've also seen much smaller variance on player damage output than D&D (let alone most MMOs). Like I suggested, why settle for rolling a D20 to pick locks when we could have an elder scrolls minigame that challenges your timing and reflexes just like combat. No this doesn't necessarily make a bad game, not at all. But as you put more and more emphasis on player skill over RNG, you move further from PnP, and then you have to adjust other things away from PnP to keep the game balanced.
For example there's not any way to easily translate average miss chance on AC to average attacks evaded, as that depends on player skill, perception and experience, readable animations and animation speed on the monsters, the opportunity cost of using active defense instead of continuing to attack, cooldowns on defensive skills, "big" attacks vs "small" attacks, etc. etc. The only way to balance that properly is playtesting, and in that process you will need to adjust how much damage a mob hit inflicts, the damage, effects, and cooldowns of individual powers, etc. etc. until it's very different from what is on the books.
It might also help to point out that 4E, particularly PHB 4E, was way better balanced than 3E (if nothing else was good about the system.) We do not need to settle for DDO level of brokenness, and if so, once you start mucking with some aspects of 4E, you're going to need to adjust others to bring things back into balance. Again no reason you can't make a great game, it's just one that is increasingly distant from PnP rules.
So far I see people confusing the tools as being what makes D&D. They are iconic to the system, but never are what has made D&D. Seems to be a bit of reverse logic. Rules change, even in their own iteration, so they can't be so inflexible, and there isn't going to be a visible die at any time you see except in turn based games designed to visually show you the die.
No, you're just confusing the player with the character Silverspar. If I don't dodge/click out of the way in time but I built my character to have a hefty defense, I shouldn't take more damage. Again, I'm worried this will make the mechanics of my CHARACTER useless.
Literally watching video games be put in arcades, I "grew up" with them. That doesn't mean I want to do a 16-combo button-stick move now decades later all the time. I like the maturity of making something and watching it grow. Nothing wrong with twitch, just want D&D to be more than that. I like half life or assassin's creed when in the mood for that, and my RPG-action games when I'm in the mood for strategy with my action.
Yes agreed and that was what my post was saying. Just want to be clear on that as your reply makes me think your not clear on this.
Btw i was editing my post and you all ninja posted after me lol
No, you're just confusing the player with the character Silverspar. If I don't dodge/click out of the way in time but I built my character to have a hefty defense, I shouldn't take more damage. Again, I'm worried this will make the mechanics of my CHARACTER useless.
What you saw is a rogue, which is based around dodging and getting out of the way. The warrior (fighter) will more than likely designed to take hits because of heavier armor (which will reduce damage) or block attacks with the shield (negating it all together) or even just move out of the way like a warrior would do . It's not that hard to figure out if they are doing these type of mechanics. I think you are nailbiting too hard in this. I've already answered several times what the armor will most likely do in the game (be swapped from hit miss to just absorption like real armor does) several times because that's what would make the most sense in an action RPG.
In fact there is a video showing the fighter doing just that around here somewhere, and it even has a challenge ability to be the defender role as in 4e. If the armor didn't do anything, then that would be counter productive in the game to call everyone to look at you
Hmm lets see if this helps, to me DnD was always about numbers along with the fun of adventuring.
The great thing about it being numbers oriented was that we didn't have to have super Mortal Kombat clicking skills to "win" or to do the fatalities, we could work on our character and make him stronger via levels and gear etc.
The hit or miss thing in DDO isn't lame. If our toon can't tank in HoX we can try getting better gear or improving our build to get more AC etc for the simple reason that it is a number thing.
Again look at arcade games back in the day, you could only improve your game so much and that was that, either u had it or or you didn't, not so with DnD and that was the appeal.
Its kind of like taking a nerd thing and trying to turn it into a jock thing.
Dunno maybe the younger generation doesn't get this so much, since video games have since then become "popular" and "cool".
This is a false interpretation on many levels Furthermore I am not a him. You are thinking arcade game and no improvement (which is both provably false in the videos as demonstrated). Not to mention there have been arcade games with level based advancement. And try as you might, the DDO action RPG experience is terrible because of that hit/miss relation. It removes the entire aspect of the action, because even rolling out of the way of attacks doesn't guarantee it will miss and still left up to random chance then.
And I've been playing D&D for almost 30 years now. I am definitely not apart of the younger generation. I started with Advanced and then moved onto 2nd edition. Saying I don't get it or I don't know, that's about as insulting as you can get. I've seen every iteration of this game. And the die rolling and numbers are there to just fill in the blanks in a PnP that people just can't sit there and try to cowboy and indian up. And those numbers are there in the game. Again that is both visually provable and confirmed.
Saying you can't get D&D growth out of an arcade or action game is honestly showing me you've either not played many video games, or you believe that everything exists in a vacuum and that growth is solely D&D or PnP propriety.
Clicking skills is in no way shape or form the end all be all, there is still growth of a character. You will still need to improve and get better stuff, in traditional D&D fashion, to continue to excel.
This is a false interpretation on many levels Furthermore I am not a him. You are thinking arcade game and no improvement (which is both provably false in the videos as demonstrated). Not to mention there have been arcade games with level based advancement. And try as you might, the DDO action RPG experience is terrible because of that hit/miss relation. It removes the entire aspect of the action, because even rolling out of the way of attacks doesn't guarantee it will miss and still left up to random chance then.
And I've been playing D&D for almost 30 years now. I am definitely not apart of the younger generation. I started with Advanced and then moved onto 2nd edition. Saying I don't get it or I don't know, that's about as insulting as you can get. I've seen every iteration of this game. And the die rolling and numbers are there to just fill in the blanks in a PnP that people just can't sit there and try to cowboy and indian up. And those numbers are there in the game. Again that is both visually provable and confirmed.
Saying you can't get D&D growth out of an arcade or action game is honestly showing me you've either not played many video games, or you believe that everything exists in a vacuum and that growth is solely D&D or PnP propriety.
Clicking skills is in no way shape or form the end all be all, there is still growth of a character. You will still need to improve and get better stuff, in traditional D&D fashion, to continue to excel.
First i always use "him" when its not clear if im talking to a male or female , just like when i'm in game i use her if its a female toon or him if its a male toon regardless of who's sitting in front of the pc screen that i cant see, so no offense was meant
Secondly your the one that doesn't get it. DnD is and always was a role playing game traditionally that is turned based.
Arcade game on the other hand always were more about hand eye coordination, were there a few exceptions sure but they were few and far in between once your lives were gone u had to put in another quarter much like pinball, and hoped you just made it to that next level or high-score this time around.
Of course there are action rpgs like zelda etc but they were often termed adventure game as well.
I can assure you i have been playing video games for a long long time.
Seems to me your the one that doesn't get it. DDO IS action based, that just meant that its was not going to be turned based LOL.
That is what primarily being action based means. You click to attack instead of choosing an option in a menu like final fantasy, if you have played that many games and are as clever as you presume yourself to be you should know this.
Saying to hit removes the whole action aspect and that to hit is stupid just shows how much you don't understand. Your problems with to hit and dodging in DDO seem to be more because of lagg which is a big issue in that game.
Furthermore no where did i ever say you could not get any kind of advancement in a action game again take Zelda for example and how you could improve your max life etc
Again what i was saying was that the BIG appeal of DnD was that you didn't need Mario Bros jumping skills or Mortal Kombat arcading clicking type skills to enjoy it.
Seems like this maybe be different for this game and these are concerns we have every right to express.
Have you ever played Rusty Hearts or Vindictus, sure there's growth you have levels and can get or craft better gear. Doesn't change the fact that it's an "action" game and at some point YOU, YOUR clicking skills stop improving and that can be a problem if your not good at that type of game.
Its like "the pit" in DDO some love that quest some hate.
First i always use "him" when its not clear if im talking to a male or female , just like when i'm in game i use her if its a female toon or him if its a male toon regardless of who's sitting in front of the pc screen that i cant see, so no offense was meant
Secondly your the one that doesn't get it. DnD is and always was a role playing game traditionally that is turned based.
Actually I get it, quite a bit. Role-playing games, however, are not exclusive to turn based or action. They can be both and quite easily. It is up to the player regardless. In fact, turn based in DnD role-play only applies when things need to be determined by dice rolls. Which is then more roll play than actual role-play.
Arcade game on the other hand always were more about hand eye coordination were there a few exceptions sure but they were few and far in between once your lives were gone u had to put in another quarter much like pinball, and hoped you just made it to that next level this time.
This is player control, something you actually lose in the table top version of the game. Regardless of how much skill your character has and how you imagine your super dexterous fighter swishing around swinging a sword, the fate of your character is always left up to the fall of the die. This is great in a medium where your visual representation is limited and you need that arbiter to determine outcomes, but in a medium where there is a lot more control over that, the fate of an outcome isn't so murky.
Of course there are action rpgs like zelda etc but they were often termed adventure game as well.
Skyrim, Mss Effect, Dragon Age, and several other games wish to have a word with you.
Seems to me your the one that doesn't get it. DDO IS action based, that just meant that its was not going to be turned based LOL.
Actually, if you leave fate up to random chance, it isn't action based. Apart of the action is the player skill, and if that skill is near meaningless in the system as it stands, then all the actiony running and jumping that occurs in the game means pretty much nothing when all is said and done so a large part of that action is pretty much negated.
That is what primarily being action based means. You click to attack instead of choosing an option in a menu like final fantasy, if you have played that many games and are as clever as you presume yourself to be you should know this.
That's only part of the equation. Being action based means that you click an action you get an action, but DDO the action is heavily influenced by random chance which means what you see is not what you are getting.
Saying to hit removes the whole action aspect and that to hit is stupid just shows how much you don't understand. Your problems with to hit and dodging in DDO seem to be more because of lagg which is a big issue in that game.
Actually I experienced no lag in the game when I played. And yes, a random chance number does remove the action because it delegates any special actions you, as the player do, to random chance. This is the opposite of action.
Furthermore no where did i ever say you could not get any kind of advancement in a action game again take Zelda for example and how you could improve your max life etc
Again what i was saying was that the BIG appeal of DnD was that you didn't need Mario Bros jumping skills or Mortal Kombat arcading clicking type skills to enjoy it.
The big appeal was the world that was created, and that you could collect a few friends and create stories and adventures and imagine fighting dragons or other fantastical things in strange exotic locales inspired by your most favorite fantasy or darkest nightmare.
Seems like this maybe be different for this game and these are concerns we have every right to express.
Yes, there is a right to express concerns, but pretending that D&D is made up of one thing and ignoring every other part of it is missing the point by a long shot.
Have you ever played Rusty Hearts or Vindictus, sure there's growth you have levels and can get or craft better gear. Doesn't change the fact that it's an "action" game and at some point YOU, YOUR clicking skills stop improving and that can be a problem if your not good at that type of game.
You counter yourself because earlier you said it was the stats and gear that improve your character, yet that's teh same thing that's improving in the action game making things easier for you. Your skill in an RPG PnP doesn't improve, your die throwing technique doesn't get better as your character advances. So your argument is sort of dead already in the water before it rises. The gear and stats you gain as you level up, improve your outcome, just like better gear and equipment improves your chances of survival or destroying those monsters in an action game.
Really, when it comes down to it, you are trying to argue semantics. Link's health is not the only thing that improves, for instance, in Zelda. You learn new sword techniques, you upgrade the Master Sword, you gain more hearts, magic spells and items, all things, like DnD, that are used to improve your character. Saying you don't learn any new ways to click the button can be likened to you don't learn new ways to throw a die either. Rolling it left or right handed, singular or in a cluster is not going to improve how well it rolls or what number it falls on once you let it go.
Furthermore, again they haven't deviated that much from what I can see already, I think people are just trying to put the cart before the horse in their logic without looking at the evidence themselves.
Putting aside for the moment the dramatic change from a turn-based tactical RPG to a real-time action RPG, let's look at your original post in this thread. Of all the things you mentioned, I identify 3 that we can agree with as being the same between PnP and NW: the 6 basic character attributes, the currency exchange rates, and the equippable item slots (head, armor, etc.).
You mention one stat which is clearly and drastically modified from PnP in NW: hit points. Also, you mention two systems which are significantly modified from PnP: the inventory system and the action points system.
You mention one stat which I don't have enough information to make a determination about, but which I suspect is probably modified due to the lack of a grid: run speed.
You also mention a number of stats that are in NW but not in PnP: attack power, spell power, attack crit, spell crit, action point strength, armor penetration strength, and cooldown reduction.
You also mention item powers as being similar, but given that a large percentage if not a majority of magic items in DnD modify to-hit rolls and other stats which are no longer present, and that your examples modify a stat that doesn't exist in normal D&D, I can't really say that I'm convinced that item powers aren't a significant change from PnP rules.
Finally, there are some glaring mechanics in PnP that are not present in NW and thus were not mentioned in your post: to-hit rolls, of course, but also milestones, healing surges, and defenses (AC, Fort, Refl, Will) for example.
So, to do a quick tally that looks like about 3 clear similarities, 13 clear differences, and 2 undecided points. What I want to know is, just how much more would Neverwinter have to move from the PnP rules before you would consider the changes to be major?
Actually I get it, quite a bit. Role-playing games, however, are not exclusive to turn based or action. They can be both and quite easily. It is up to the player regardless. In fact, turn based in DnD role-play only applies when things need to be determined by dice rolls. Which is then more roll play than actual role-play.
This is player control, something you actually lose in the table top version of the game. Regardless of how much skill your character has and how you imagine your super dexterous fighter swishing around swinging a sword, the fate of your character is always left up to the fall of the die. This is great in a medium where your visual representation is limited and you need that arbiter to determine outcomes, but in a medium where there is a lot more control over that, the fate of an outcome isn't so murky.
That's just an opinion though and not a fact i quite frankly i don't agree.
We have stats that represent our "CHARACTERS" physical attributes not ours personally. This has nothing to do with "visual representation". We could improve these attributes depending on our goals What removing to hit does is replace our toons attributes with ours .
Skyrim, Mss Effect, Dragon Age, and several other games wish to have a word with you.
Hmm these games wish to have a word with me why ? Because i said many games like Zelda were often termed adventure instead rpgs. Hell on this example many and long were the arguments about which one it was.
Other than to be argumentative i do not get this reply.
Actually, if you leave fate up to random chance, it isn't action based. Apart of the action is the player skill, and if that skill is near meaningless in the system as it stands, then all the actiony running and jumping that occurs in the game means pretty much nothing when all is said and done so a large part of that action is pretty much negated.
That's only part of the equation. Being action based means that you click an action you get an action, but DDO the action is heavily influenced by random chance which means what you see is not what you are getting.
NO in DDO if you stand to far from the critter and swing you will miss no matter how high your to hit, if your facing a critter that's much higher level, has high ac etc and your to hit blows you will miss. That's not "chance" that's using the dice to show "your characters" lack of skill etc.
Contrary to what you presume i do understand what you mean i just don't agree with it to the extent your trying to ram to down every ones throat.
Heh random chance IS a part of everything btw ask any professional sportsman or anyone that's been in the forces.
Actually I experienced no lag in the game when I played. And yes, a random chance number does remove the action because it delegates any special actions you, as the player do, to random chance. This is the opposite of action.
IF you played any DDO any amount of time required to know what you are talking about then you have experienced lagg at some point or other, i don't believe anyone that says DDO has no lagg. I don't care what super computer you have or if you even live next door to the DDO servers.
The big appeal was the world that was created, and that you could collect a few friends and create stories and adventures and imagine fighting dragons or other fantastical things in strange exotic locales inspired by your most favorite fantasy or darkest nightmare.
Yes that was ONE of the appeals for me but by far not the only one and i'm sure i'm not alone in this.
Yes, there is a right to express concerns, but pretending that D&D is made up of one thing and ignoring every other part of it is missing the point by a long shot.
I am not saying DnD is made up of this one thing BUT to hit and ac is one VERY BIG thing that has ALWAYS been in it and saying bah this doesn't matter and wont affect the rest of the system is you ignoring a good part of DnD and missing the point.
You counter yourself because earlier you said it was the stats and gear that improve your character, yet that's teh same thing that's improving in the action game making things easier for you. Your skill in an RPG PnP doesn't improve, your die throwing technique doesn't get better as your character advances. So your argument is sort of dead already in the water before it rises. The gear and stats you gain as you level up, improve your outcome, just like better gear and equipment improves your chances of survival or destroying those monsters in an action game.
Um no im not countering my self at all. Stats and gear do improve my "character" i can get gear that improves my ac or to hit. How do you propose we will be able to do this if there is no to hit and that our stats that affect that are essentially being replaced by US personally by OUR PHYSICAL ability instead of our toons ? Dead in the water you say LOL
You are falsely equating the physical action i do (taking the dice in my hands and throwing them on the table) with me doing some speedy clicking to achieve an effect in game and ignoring what we are actually saying about dice rolls
Really, when it comes down to it, you are trying to argue semantics. Link's health is not the only thing that improves, for instance, in Zelda. You learn new sword techniques, you upgrade the master Sword, you gain more hearts, magic spells and items, all things, like DnD, that are used to improve your character. Saying you don't learn any new ways to click the button can be likened to you don't learn new ways to throw a die either. Rolling it left or right handed, singular or in a cluster is not going to improve how well it rolls or what number it falls on once you let it go.
Semantic you say, go look at your self in the mirror before accusing me of arguing semantic as that pretty much all you have been doing instead of taking the statements i made like they were meant to be taken.
Sure in Zelda links heath isn't the only thing that improves, what did you really want me to list all the things that do? Stop nitpicking. I figured that one example sufficed. But it still not really like DnD.
YOUR analogy to clicking on a button and die rolls if so flawed. Anyone regardless of there personal physical condition can improve "characters" saves or to hit or ac etc etc. The fail on a natural one that can't be improved just emulates real life bad luck or random chance that you seem to hate so.
Your clicking skill will only get so much better and then it stops there. This has nothing to do with the actual action of chucking the dice on the table
Those new skill you learned were not always easy to do for everyone yet in DnD if you activate a skill it will go off every time i mean unless your drunk and hit the wrong button and use a LOH instead of a smite.
You mention one stat which is clearly and drastically modified from PnP in NW: hit points. Also, you mention two systems which are significantly modified from PnP: the inventory system and the action points system.
Inventory technically isn't modified. Depending on how DMs react, this can be as much or as little as the character can carry and traditionally, is generally influenced by item weights. Now while I am sure people would love to just carry unlimited number of items (hence the AD&D DMG showing the character carrying around a backpack in a comic strip that is like twice as large as the character) I don't think this is a strong contention for saying that is drastically different from the boardgame, more of finding the balance between the games that don't care in the end, and the extreme rules lawyer DMs who want every gram accounted for.
As far as hit points are concerned, in a computer game where numbers can end up flying about and such, you end up with major balance issues and the low number of hit points of the PnP would make this very difficult to balance. Since the game is not turn based at all, this means that decimation from random damage is a lot higher than in the PnP. If you've ever played Menzoberanzan, Strahd's Possession, or the Stone Prophet when a lot of things can happen in a short period of time, this can lead to devastating results where reaction time is crucial.
And as far as action points, action points were introduced to give a level of control that players just did not have in the PnP once the die started rolling. Witht he system allowing you to place your attacks or dodge out of the way of attacks that becomes less of an issue.
You mention one stat which I don't have enough information to make a determination about, but which I suspect is probably modified due to the lack of a grid: run speed.
In the PnP you can encounter situations that can reduce or increase your movement speed. Say for instance an attack in 4e that gives you a shift option. This shift can be as small as one square and I've seen some as high as 6 squares. Or take specific boots that can increase your speed or wearing heavy armor which can reduce your speed. There are factors to consider and since movement is not turned based this would be reflected as you either moving faster while running or slower this is what the speed would represent.
You also mention a number of stats that are in NW but not in PnP: attack power, spell power, attack crit, spell crit, action point strength, armor penetration strength, and cooldown reduction.
These would be translations of specific bonuses you would get. Think of it as the damage modifier total at the end of the roll for the power. Crit chance and spell crit would denote things like your threat range. In d20 this would generally be represented by a roll of 20 in most cases but certain items or abilities can increase the threat range from 19 to 20, or even 18 to 20, and some even lower. As far as action point bonus, there are ways to earn more action points in DnD naturally, but since action points would operate the same way and are for enacting your daily, this would represent that.
You also mention item powers as being similar, but given that a large percentage if not a majority of magic items in DnD modify to-hit rolls and other stats which are no longer present, and that your examples modify a stat that doesn't exist in normal D&D, I can't really say that I'm convinced that item power aren't a significant change from PnP rules.
A large portion modify the hit roll AND the damage roll. The +/- modifier on a magic item applies to both. So a +1 dagger means it would have an increased damage potential from a standard dagger as much as a better ability to hit.
Finally, there are some glaring mechanics in PnP that are not present in NW and thus were not mentioned in your post: to-hit rolls, of course, but also milestones, healing surges, and defenses (AC, Fort, Refl, Will) for example.
Defenses will undoubtedly be shifted to actually represent damage absorption of an attack not dodging as that is more in control of the players hands than the actual game. Healing surges, as I pointed out in another thread, would be too easily griefable and puts a rather annoying limitation on total healing that can be done since in an MMO you can't exactly have extended rests at any time you want and the entire world just shutting down for 8 hours, since there is no jump cut like you can do in a standard DnD game. I don't think we can say they are missing so much as being re-purposed.
So, to do a quick tally that looks like about 3 clear similarities, 13 clear differences, and 2 undecided points. What I want to know is, just how much more would Neverwinter have to move from the PnP rules before you would consider the changes to be major?
Any change to the rules doesn't make it not DnD to me. What makes it DnD is the atmosphere, and the setting and the adventure to be had. It always has. I know few DMs who actually 100% stick to the rules as outlined in the book, and pretty much every DM has a "blue" book (aka house rules) set up that contradict a lot of what is already established. Dungeons and Dragons to me is about the story and enjoying my time with friends, it doesn't matter if the die rolling I used was Hero Games, White Wolfs or GURPs to me, it would still be DnD regardless of which arbitrary random system used would be it.
I know I never used the rules 100%, I would wager I cut 20% and "blue" booked many of them myself because I didn't like how they turned out one way or the other. The rules are guidelines, not cut in stone this is how it has to be. This si why I loved 2nd edition so much and why I don't like 3rd edition, because the rules for 2nd didn't feel so restrictive while the rules for 3rd did and felt more like I needed spreadsheets and advanced math skills to play. Many people might not have liked the THAC0 slide ruler, but I still have a place in my heart for it.
I like the 4e rules because they don't feel so cut in stone either, they need room for improvement, rules always do, but that's why many DM's have their "blue" book. So they can adjust things to how they feel they should be.
That's just an opinion though and not a fact i quite frankly i don't agree.
We have stats that represent our "CHARACTERS" physical attributes not ours personally. This has nothing to do with "visual representation". We could improve these attributes depending on our goals What removing to hit does is replace our toons attributes with ours .
And we have stats in the MMO. Just like other computer games in the RPG genre including just recently released ones.
Hmm these games wish to have a word with me why ? Because i said many games like Zelda were often termed adventure instead rpgs. Hell on this example many and long were the arguments about which one it was.
Other than to be argumentative i do not get this reply.
Because the stats determine the character just as much as you clicking on a mouse button.
NO in DDO if you stand to far from the critter ans swing you will miss no matter how high your to hit, if your facing a critter that's much higher level, has high ac etc and your to hit blows you will miss. That's not "chance" that's using the dice to show "your characters" lack of skill etc.
Contrary to what you presume i do understand what you mean i just don't agree with it to the extent your trying to ram t down every ones throat.
Heh random chance IS a part of everything btw ask any professional sportsman or anyone that's been in the forces.
Yes, and if I get up and swing in their face I am still left to random chance. Trying ot dodge the reason why it's not action by claiming I am not in somethings face while watching th die generator say hit or miss on it doesn't negate the fact that it is still random.
IF you played any DDO any amount of time required to know what you are talking about then you have experienced lagg at some point or other, i don't believe anyone that says DDO has no lagg. I don't care what super computer you have or if you even live next door to the DDO servers.
I downloaded it the other day in fact just to give it one more go just to see if I might enjoy it. My perception still hasn't changed at this point.
I am not saying DnD is made up of this one thing BUT to hit and ac is one VERY BIG thing that has ALWAYS been in it and saying bah this doesn't matter and wont affect the rest of the system is you ignoring a good part of DnD and missing the point.
Hit and AC has been in because there is no other way in a PnP to determine it. Oh I can sit there and go I hit the goblin with my sword and we can call it a day, but it's there for that reason since you can't physically represent it on a piece of paper. This, however, is not true in a video game.
Um no im not countering my self at all. Stats and gear do improve my "character" i can get gear that improves my ac or to hit. How do you propose we will be able to do this if there is no to hit and that our stats that affect that are essentially being replaced by US personally by OUR PHYSICAL ability instead of our toons ? Dead in the water you say LOL
You are falsely equating the physical action i do (taking the dice in my hands and throwing them on the table) with me doing some speedy clicking to achieve an effect in game and ignoring what we are actually saying about dice rolls
Because your damage increases, your defense increases, your hit points increase, the effect your stats increase. Hit and miss is not the only factor that determines your character improves at anything they do.
Semantic you say, go look at your self in the mirror before accusing me of arguing semantic as that pretty much all you have been doing instead of taking the statements i made like they were meant to be taken.
Because you have been. Really, don't tell people to stand in mirrors when you've been ignoring it yourself.
Sure in Zelda links heath isn't the only thing that improves, what did you really want me to list all the things that do? Stop nitpicking. I figured that one example sufficed. But it still not really like DnD.
Because you don't want it to be like DnD doesn't mean it isn't. Your characters health, damage and statistics improve over time. The way things can be done and the items and gear influence all that. Just like in Zelda.
YOUR analogy to clicking on a button and die rolls if so flawed. Anyone regardless of there personal physical condition can improve "characters" saves or to hit or ac etc etc. The fail on a natural one that can't be improved just emulates real life bad luck or random chance that you seem to hate so.
Actually, it's spot on. Your argument was no one can improve clicking. Yet clicking isn't the only thing improving your character.Your levels, stats, gear and all those factors are, just like in DnD. Just like your die roll technique doesn't improve your character at all, but their level, gear and bonuses all do.
Your clicking skill will only get so much better and then it stops there. This has nothing to do with the actual action of chucking the dice on the table
They are quite well, one in teh same at this point. You chucking a dice will never, ever improve your ability to hit that monster. Just like me clicking a button will never ever improve my ability to hit that monster. The final determinant in both cases is gear, level, and abilities from leveling up.
Those new skill you learned were not always easy to do for everyone yet in DnD if you activate a skill it will go off every time i mean unless your drunk and hit the wrong button and use a LOH instead of a smite.
And this si where you are confusing arbitrary. You "click" your ability in DnD but you aren't guaranteed it goes off like you intended, as the die is the final arbiter and decision maker. And considering "unlucky" streaks are always talked about you can't sit there and say that your intent to hit a baddie using a die always happens.
Ill try one more time and if your to daft or stubborn to accept my point i will give up n just accept our one of those people that always need to be right .
Ill type real simple this time. In DnD it's your damn characters stats that determine if you hit or miss or if you are hit or missed upon .
Do you follow me so far or is that too hard to understand?
With these changes to how we evade/dodge or are hit it is NO LONGER our characters stats that determine this REGARDLESS of our lvl or characters stats.
IF we don't click appropriately we will be hit and our characters stats will have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT AT ALL
Originally Posted by Asm0deus
That's just an opinion though and not a fact i quite frankly i don't agree.
We have stats that represent our "CHARACTERS" physical attributes not ours personally. This has nothing to do with "visual representation". We could improve these attributes depending on our goals What removing to hit does is replace our toons attributes with ours .
And we have stats in the MMO. Just like other computer games in the RPG genre including just recently released ones.
Pray tell me wtf this reply has to do with what i said? Other that it mentions stats.
Seriously you mostly ignore my concerns and questions or statements and answer with some BS reply to try and make your self look good
I was saying they are removing a mechanic (to hit and good chances AC) to replace it with, us clicking and our hand eye coordination (like in a fps).
I didn't say there was no stats at all and your reply has no point at all.
In DDO your toons stats determines its success even the most inept hand eye coordinated person can improve even in epic difficulty.
Yes, and if I get up and swing in their face I am still left to random chance. Trying ot dodge the reason why it's not action by claiming I am not in somethings face while watching th die generator say hit or miss on it doesn't negate the fact that it is still random.
It is action your just to daft to get why it is.
It is emulating real life, its DnD way of saying you opponent is more skillful with a blade and so you keep missing because he's turning your blows away with his weapon. But i hit him now an then you say so it don't make sense you will claim. It does because even in real life you may get some lucky hits in. There is nothing random about this
But u keep on as you are and continue to obfuscate things instead of really trying to understand what some of us are worried about.
No, you are just insulting just to insult now. You think the rules should be uncompromising and inflexible, that's all it boils down to. And instead of seeing what has been pointed out you prefer to get rude, snippy, and insulting about it. You are trying to say I don't get it but at the same time contradicting yourself.
No, you are just insulting just to insult now. You think the rules should be uncompromising and inflexible, that's all it boils down to. And instead of seeing what has been pointed out you prefer to get rude, snippy, and insulting about it. You are trying to say I don't get it but at the same time contradicting yourself.
Bull your just upset because im calling you out on your BS
Pot calling kettle black maybe but i sure as hell wasn't the one that got snippy or rude and insulting first i just responded to it.
Stop playing miss innocent it doesn't become you
No, you just didn't like my analogies and when you didn't like them you went to calling names. I've not done anything other than point the view out and why they don't differ like you say they do. You decided that not only did you not like the answers, you wanted to start hurling insults and names.
There isn't any pretending to be innocent of the matter in this instance. I was never rude or insulting in my response I was pointing things out and I am sorry you don't like that I can compare a d20 die throw and stat modification to a mouse click with stat modifications as well.
No i plainly told you your analogies were flawed and tried to show you with various example why they were flawed.
You just ignored my points and gave some inane replies and tried to obfuscate. Some of your replies were simply an insult to my intelligence
Also that last post you quoted me i was the process of editing but you ofc are so quick on the quote and play the wounded damsel routine 2 mins was to slow on my part.
Was my last post on page 5 a bit insulting perhaps it was but so were some of your statement add in the fact you don't ever reply directly to my main point.
This isn't about my not having the same point of view as you this is about you being unable to accept or even explain why you think the analogy your whole argument is based is correct when i have been showing why it is not and pointing the flaw out.
This is what your basing all this on by your own words:
I can compare a d20 die throw and stat modification to a mouse click with stat modifications as well.
This is flawed you seem not to want to see why or just don't get it.
You are comparing the "action" of picking up some dice and throwing them on the table with clicking on a mouse . I have no problem with the rest of it but this part if wrong and flawed.
what you should be comparing it too is the actual dice roll (not the movement made to get the dice roll) this is your error.
I can be handicapped and still do the dice roll. It won't affect the results in GAME. My toon will take that roll and add any modifiers my stats and gear allow me to and achieve the same results regardless of my hand was shaking or whatnot.
BY your analogy this would no longer be true, if i am handicapped i may not have the required min skill needed to even " physically make the roll" so to speak, seeing as this requires some actiony clicking on my part.
The analogy should be dice roll ( the results not the action of doing it) plus stats mods etc which are all "in game mechanics"
The mouse clicking you are replacing the roll with an "outside of the game" mechanic plus adding an in game mechanic.
This was is my last attempt to explain it to you, its 4am and im working later and im too tired to post after this one.
You just ignored my points and gave some inane replies and tried to obfuscate.
Actually I tackled them head on and gave good counterpoints that you did not like.
This is flawed you seem not to want to see why or just don't get it.
It's not flawed. Your d20 roll, regardless of how you throw that die, is not ever changing. It is randomly going to come up on a number 1 through 20. Your game statistics are what modify it and improve that roll or determine it's outcome. The same with the mouse click. Me clicking the mouse is not ever going to change how it reacts. What changes those things are the gear, stats and abilities of the character as the character has leveled up. I got it, you just don't want to acknowledge it. you equated to throwing a die as determining your skill in an argument and saying your character grows because of that die throwing while at the same time nothing ever changes by clicking a mouse button. I countered it by stating, correctly, that no matter how you throw that die, it isn't going to improve as you are just throwing a die and the modifiers, like in a computer game, determine the final outcome.
You are comparing the "action" of picking up some dice and throwing them on the table with clicking on a mouse . I have no problem with the rest of it but this part if wrong and flawed.
It really isn't. Tell me how is moving your hand and tossing a die out any different from clicking that mouse? Both produce an effect and in this instance, both are modified by game statistics to determine the final outcome.
what you should be comparing it too is the actual dice roll (not the movement made to get the dice roll) this is your error.
there was no comparison made to the actual movement, this was made to the die roll. The analogy I used was correct, this is a nit pick to nit pick.
BY your analogy this would no longer be true, if i am handicapped i may not have the required min skill needed to even "make physically the roll" so to speak.
This analogy is off because there are people handicapped who can't even roll dice just like there are people who are handicapped to be unable to play computers. But that would be hyperbole to say that's 100% true because I do have handicapped friends who run circles around people in twitch based games. And I don't mean legs handicapped only I mean they have very limited muscle control in their entire body type handicapped.
The analogy should be dice roll ( the results not the action of doing it) plus stats mods etc which are all "in game mechanics"
The mouse clicking you are replacing the roll with an "outside of the game" mechanic plus adding an in game mechanic.
Again this is a nit pick to nit pick because that is exactly what I implied anyways.
Ok boys i need to go to bed and Im ALL out of popcorn! :mad:
#1 Silver: If you never experienced lag in DDO, you did not play the game for very long.
#2 You both bring up interesting points, but if you show me a d&d system where there is no to-hit, and AC has been misspelled DR, then I'm sorry but thats not D&D to me.
#3 The fact of the matter though is chances are 4e will work out fine for Neverwinter, because as we learned from DDO, an MMO at best will only be loosely based on 4e. This is not pnp, and its not your daddy's D&D.
ahem...
I do agree they are the same but you are ignoring one important difference in computer based random number generation vs actual rolling of dice:
Cheating!!! - is not possible on computer.
It may be good thing or bad considering whether you enjoy rogue skills in game or not.
It's not flawed. Your d20 roll, regardless of how you throw that die, is not ever changing. It is randomly going to come up on a number 1 through 20. Your game statistics are what modify it and improve that roll or determine it's outcome. The same with the mouse click. Me clicking the mouse is not ever going to change how it reacts. What changes those things are the gear, stats and abilities of the character as the character has leveled up. I got it, you just don't want to acknowledge it. you equated to throwing a die as determining your skill in an argument and saying your character grows because of that die throwing while at the same time nothing ever changes by clicking a mouse button. I countered it by stating, correctly, that no matter how you throw that die, it isn't going to improve as you are just throwing a die and the modifiers, like in a computer game, determine the final outcome.
Heh again you not reading what im saying a twisting it around.
Like you said it doesn't matter how you throw the dice it will give you 1 to 20 which emulates your toons skill plus it adds modifiers (gears stats etc).
Mouse clicking doesn't give you 1 to 20 chance when it comes to dodging or misses by critter because of your ac.
THE clicking skills if your not good enough will result in you getting hit every time EXACTLY BECAUSE THERE NO ROLL
It really isn't. Tell me how is moving your hand and tossing a die out any different from clicking that mouse? Both produce an effect and in this instance, both are modified by game statistics to determine the final outcome.
It's different in that it doesn't matter HOW you throw the dice, you can suck on em for luck and spit them out ,toss em with your toes. blow on em etc, the IMPORTANT thing is the results because you get to add them to your modifiers.
With this action clicking thing HOW you manually click IS IMPORTANT, it will be the difference between being hit or being missed etc.
For some one that say is slightly handicapped or just less skillfull manually it will be 0 plus modifiers instead of 1 to 20 plus modifiers.
So in all eventuality will that will mean getting hit every time for these people.
ahem...
I do agree they are the same but you are ignoring one important difference in computer based random number generation vs actual rolling of dice:
Cheating!!! - is not possible on computer.
It may be good thing or bad considering whether you enjoy rogue skills in game or not.
Please carry on
Not to contradict your point, but cheating is very possible in a computer game
Cheaters are a constant thorn in the side of developers in MMO genre, in fact
Heh again you not reading what im saying a twisting it around.
Like you said it doesn't matter how you throw the dice it will give you 1 to 20 which emulates your toons skill plus it adds modifiers (gears stats etc).
Mouse clicking doesn't give you 1 to 20 chance when it comes to dodging or misses by critter because of your ac.
THE clicking skills if your not good enough will result in you getting hit every time EXACTLY BECAUSE THERE NO ROLL
And my counter argument to that was that in pen and paper it is needed because there is no physical way to determine a hit or miss otherwise visually or metaphorically. But that roll can be determined by rock/papers/scissors just as much as a die roll. This is not true in a visual computer game where you can control where your attack will go or land.
If Neverwinter was a turned based game where we were using mini mode representations that only slightly animated to show we attacked (like in the flash on facebook) yea I would agree that to-hit and AC would be needed in that methodology of the medium. But the game plays in real time, with you at the helm and controlling your character. A single combat round won't take up to 20 minutes or more to resolve here, it will happen as it happens.
but does it matter or not WHEN I make my attack button push or not?
Because if I am facing an enemy and choose to attack and the computer bases the hit on my stats (that is whether it hits or how much it hits depending on the model) or when the TIMING of my attack is for that "soft target," then it becomes a factor if it's MY response or my character. So is the reaction time a factor, or is it simply "keeping the enemy in my sights" and letting my CHARACTER'S stats do the rest?
...
Mouse clicking doesn't give you 1 to 20 chance when it comes to dodging or misses by critter because of your ac.
...With this action clicking thing HOW you manually click IS IMPORTANT, it will be the difference between being hit or being missed etc.
I think I get your point. The campaigns would depend on how skilled you are with controls, and rather than that laid back attitude one will have to keep clicking and clicking.
Although I still like this new idea of actually dodging out of the way instead of rolling to dodge, I have to agree that it is a game-changer and not old dnd laid back brainy-building and then observing style but a immersing(or frustrating) click click style like maybe, rusty hearts or vindictus.
EDIT: Although I still agree with Silver that actual dodging is more immersive and exciting than virtual dodging by rolling.
Comments
3E/4E put a ton of weight on builds and stats defining your character abilities, and a much smaller weight on the player abilities mattering. It is not a small change when you invert that relationship, because it's tantamount to removing dice from the game. We have seen to-hit roll go, we've also seen much smaller variance on player damage output than D&D (let alone most MMOs). Like I suggested, why settle for rolling a D20 to pick locks when we could have an elder scrolls minigame that challenges your timing and reflexes just like combat. No this doesn't necessarily make a bad game, not at all. But as you put more and more emphasis on player skill over RNG, you move further from PnP, and then you have to adjust other things away from PnP to keep the game balanced.
For example there's not any way to easily translate average miss chance on AC to average attacks evaded, as that depends on player skill, perception and experience, readable animations and animation speed on the monsters, the opportunity cost of using active defense instead of continuing to attack, cooldowns on defensive skills, "big" attacks vs "small" attacks, etc. etc. The only way to balance that properly is playtesting, and in that process you will need to adjust how much damage a mob hit inflicts, the damage, effects, and cooldowns of individual powers, etc. etc. until it's very different from what is on the books.
It might also help to point out that 4E, particularly PHB 4E, was way better balanced than 3E (if nothing else was good about the system.) We do not need to settle for DDO level of brokenness, and if so, once you start mucking with some aspects of 4E, you're going to need to adjust others to bring things back into balance. Again no reason you can't make a great game, it's just one that is increasingly distant from PnP rules.
So far I see people confusing the tools as being what makes D&D. They are iconic to the system, but never are what has made D&D. Seems to be a bit of reverse logic. Rules change, even in their own iteration, so they can't be so inflexible, and there isn't going to be a visible die at any time you see except in turn based games designed to visually show you the die.
Literally watching video games be put in arcades, I "grew up" with them. That doesn't mean I want to do a 16-combo button-stick move now decades later all the time. I like the maturity of making something and watching it grow. Nothing wrong with twitch, just want D&D to be more than that. I like half life or assassin's creed when in the mood for that, and my RPG-action games when I'm in the mood for strategy with my action.
No, you're just confusing the player with the character Silverspar. If I don't dodge/click out of the way in time but I built my character to have a hefty defense, I shouldn't take more damage. Again, I'm worried this will make the mechanics of my CHARACTER useless.
Yes agreed and that was what my post was saying. Just want to be clear on that as your reply makes me think your not clear on this.
Btw i was editing my post and you all ninja posted after me lol
Sorry agreeing with you and sharing my background why.
What you saw is a rogue, which is based around dodging and getting out of the way. The warrior (fighter) will more than likely designed to take hits because of heavier armor (which will reduce damage) or block attacks with the shield (negating it all together) or even just move out of the way like a warrior would do
In fact there is a video showing the fighter doing just that around here somewhere, and it even has a challenge ability to be the defender role as in 4e. If the armor didn't do anything, then that would be counter productive in the game to call everyone to look at you
Cool
I wonder if Silverspar read my post as it was directed at him mainly.
Sorry, was too busy biting my nails to notice
This is a false interpretation on many levels
And I've been playing D&D for almost 30 years now. I am definitely not apart of the younger generation. I started with Advanced and then moved onto 2nd edition. Saying I don't get it or I don't know, that's about as insulting as you can get. I've seen every iteration of this game. And the die rolling and numbers are there to just fill in the blanks in a PnP that people just can't sit there and try to cowboy and indian up. And those numbers are there in the game. Again that is both visually provable and confirmed.
Saying you can't get D&D growth out of an arcade or action game is honestly showing me you've either not played many video games, or you believe that everything exists in a vacuum and that growth is solely D&D or PnP propriety.
Clicking skills is in no way shape or form the end all be all, there is still growth of a character. You will still need to improve and get better stuff, in traditional D&D fashion, to continue to excel.
First i always use "him" when its not clear if im talking to a male or female , just like when i'm in game i use her if its a female toon or him if its a male toon regardless of who's sitting in front of the pc screen that i cant see, so no offense was meant
Secondly your the one that doesn't get it. DnD is and always was a role playing game traditionally that is turned based.
Arcade game on the other hand always were more about hand eye coordination, were there a few exceptions sure but they were few and far in between once your lives were gone u had to put in another quarter much like pinball, and hoped you just made it to that next level or high-score this time around.
Of course there are action rpgs like zelda etc but they were often termed adventure game as well.
I can assure you i have been playing video games for a long long time.
Seems to me your the one that doesn't get it. DDO IS action based, that just meant that its was not going to be turned based LOL.
That is what primarily being action based means. You click to attack instead of choosing an option in a menu like final fantasy, if you have played that many games and are as clever as you presume yourself to be you should know this.
Saying to hit removes the whole action aspect and that to hit is stupid just shows how much you don't understand. Your problems with to hit and dodging in DDO seem to be more because of lagg which is a big issue in that game.
Furthermore no where did i ever say you could not get any kind of advancement in a action game again take Zelda for example and how you could improve your max life etc
Again what i was saying was that the BIG appeal of DnD was that you didn't need Mario Bros jumping skills or Mortal Kombat arcading clicking type skills to enjoy it.
Seems like this maybe be different for this game and these are concerns we have every right to express.
Have you ever played Rusty Hearts or Vindictus, sure there's growth you have levels and can get or craft better gear. Doesn't change the fact that it's an "action" game and at some point YOU, YOUR clicking skills stop improving and that can be a problem if your not good at that type of game.
Its like "the pit" in DDO some love that quest some hate.
*Ducks quickly out of the way as the fray continues.* If only my RL skills were this fast...
This is player control, something you actually lose in the table top version of the game. Regardless of how much skill your character has and how you imagine your super dexterous fighter swishing around swinging a sword, the fate of your character is always left up to the fall of the die. This is great in a medium where your visual representation is limited and you need that arbiter to determine outcomes, but in a medium where there is a lot more control over that, the fate of an outcome isn't so murky.
Skyrim, Mss Effect, Dragon Age, and several other games wish to have a word with you.
Actually, if you leave fate up to random chance, it isn't action based. Apart of the action is the player skill, and if that skill is near meaningless in the system as it stands, then all the actiony running and jumping that occurs in the game means pretty much nothing when all is said and done so a large part of that action is pretty much negated.
That's only part of the equation. Being action based means that you click an action you get an action, but DDO the action is heavily influenced by random chance which means what you see is not what you are getting.
Actually I experienced no lag in the game when I played. And yes, a random chance number does remove the action because it delegates any special actions you, as the player do, to random chance. This is the opposite of action.
The big appeal was the world that was created, and that you could collect a few friends and create stories and adventures and imagine fighting dragons or other fantastical things in strange exotic locales inspired by your most favorite fantasy or darkest nightmare.
Yes, there is a right to express concerns, but pretending that D&D is made up of one thing and ignoring every other part of it is missing the point by a long shot.
You counter yourself because earlier you said it was the stats and gear that improve your character, yet that's teh same thing that's improving in the action game making things easier for you. Your skill in an RPG PnP doesn't improve, your die throwing technique doesn't get better as your character advances. So your argument is sort of dead already in the water before it rises. The gear and stats you gain as you level up, improve your outcome, just like better gear and equipment improves your chances of survival or destroying those monsters in an action game.
Really, when it comes down to it, you are trying to argue semantics. Link's health is not the only thing that improves, for instance, in Zelda. You learn new sword techniques, you upgrade the Master Sword, you gain more hearts, magic spells and items, all things, like DnD, that are used to improve your character. Saying you don't learn any new ways to click the button can be likened to you don't learn new ways to throw a die either. Rolling it left or right handed, singular or in a cluster is not going to improve how well it rolls or what number it falls on once you let it go.
You make some good arguments for not having to-hit rolls in action RPGs, and I don't disagree. However, I'm still struggling to understand this:
Putting aside for the moment the dramatic change from a turn-based tactical RPG to a real-time action RPG, let's look at your original post in this thread. Of all the things you mentioned, I identify 3 that we can agree with as being the same between PnP and NW: the 6 basic character attributes, the currency exchange rates, and the equippable item slots (head, armor, etc.).
You mention one stat which is clearly and drastically modified from PnP in NW: hit points. Also, you mention two systems which are significantly modified from PnP: the inventory system and the action points system.
You mention one stat which I don't have enough information to make a determination about, but which I suspect is probably modified due to the lack of a grid: run speed.
You also mention a number of stats that are in NW but not in PnP: attack power, spell power, attack crit, spell crit, action point strength, armor penetration strength, and cooldown reduction.
You also mention item powers as being similar, but given that a large percentage if not a majority of magic items in DnD modify to-hit rolls and other stats which are no longer present, and that your examples modify a stat that doesn't exist in normal D&D, I can't really say that I'm convinced that item powers aren't a significant change from PnP rules.
Finally, there are some glaring mechanics in PnP that are not present in NW and thus were not mentioned in your post: to-hit rolls, of course, but also milestones, healing surges, and defenses (AC, Fort, Refl, Will) for example.
So, to do a quick tally that looks like about 3 clear similarities, 13 clear differences, and 2 undecided points. What I want to know is, just how much more would Neverwinter have to move from the PnP rules before you would consider the changes to be major?
That's just an opinion though and not a fact i quite frankly i don't agree.
We have stats that represent our "CHARACTERS" physical attributes not ours personally. This has nothing to do with "visual representation". We could improve these attributes depending on our goals What removing to hit does is replace our toons attributes with ours .
Hmm these games wish to have a word with me why ? Because i said many games like Zelda were often termed adventure instead rpgs. Hell on this example many and long were the arguments about which one it was.
Other than to be argumentative i do not get this reply.
NO in DDO if you stand to far from the critter and swing you will miss no matter how high your to hit, if your facing a critter that's much higher level, has high ac etc and your to hit blows you will miss. That's not "chance" that's using the dice to show "your characters" lack of skill etc.
Contrary to what you presume i do understand what you mean i just don't agree with it to the extent your trying to ram to down every ones throat.
Heh random chance IS a part of everything btw ask any professional sportsman or anyone that's been in the forces.
IF you played any DDO any amount of time required to know what you are talking about then you have experienced lagg at some point or other, i don't believe anyone that says DDO has no lagg. I don't care what super computer you have or if you even live next door to the DDO servers.
Yes that was ONE of the appeals for me but by far not the only one and i'm sure i'm not alone in this.
I am not saying DnD is made up of this one thing BUT to hit and ac is one VERY BIG thing that has ALWAYS been in it and saying bah this doesn't matter and wont affect the rest of the system is you ignoring a good part of DnD and missing the point.
Um no im not countering my self at all. Stats and gear do improve my "character" i can get gear that improves my ac or to hit. How do you propose we will be able to do this if there is no to hit and that our stats that affect that are essentially being replaced by US personally by OUR PHYSICAL ability instead of our toons ? Dead in the water you say LOL
You are falsely equating the physical action i do (taking the dice in my hands and throwing them on the table) with me doing some speedy clicking to achieve an effect in game and ignoring what we are actually saying about dice rolls
Semantic you say, go look at your self in the mirror before accusing me of arguing semantic as that pretty much all you have been doing instead of taking the statements i made like they were meant to be taken.
Sure in Zelda links heath isn't the only thing that improves, what did you really want me to list all the things that do? Stop nitpicking. I figured that one example sufficed. But it still not really like DnD.
YOUR analogy to clicking on a button and die rolls if so flawed. Anyone regardless of there personal physical condition can improve "characters" saves or to hit or ac etc etc. The fail on a natural one that can't be improved just emulates real life bad luck or random chance that you seem to hate so.
Your clicking skill will only get so much better and then it stops there. This has nothing to do with the actual action of chucking the dice on the table
Those new skill you learned were not always easy to do for everyone yet in DnD if you activate a skill it will go off every time i mean unless your drunk and hit the wrong button and use a LOH instead of a smite.
As far as hit points are concerned, in a computer game where numbers can end up flying about and such, you end up with major balance issues and the low number of hit points of the PnP would make this very difficult to balance. Since the game is not turn based at all, this means that decimation from random damage is a lot higher than in the PnP. If you've ever played Menzoberanzan, Strahd's Possession, or the Stone Prophet when a lot of things can happen in a short period of time, this can lead to devastating results where reaction time is crucial.
And as far as action points, action points were introduced to give a level of control that players just did not have in the PnP once the die started rolling. Witht he system allowing you to place your attacks or dodge out of the way of attacks that becomes less of an issue.
In the PnP you can encounter situations that can reduce or increase your movement speed. Say for instance an attack in 4e that gives you a shift option. This shift can be as small as one square and I've seen some as high as 6 squares. Or take specific boots that can increase your speed or wearing heavy armor which can reduce your speed. There are factors to consider and since movement is not turned based this would be reflected as you either moving faster while running or slower this is what the speed would represent.
These would be translations of specific bonuses you would get. Think of it as the damage modifier total at the end of the roll for the power. Crit chance and spell crit would denote things like your threat range. In d20 this would generally be represented by a roll of 20 in most cases but certain items or abilities can increase the threat range from 19 to 20, or even 18 to 20, and some even lower. As far as action point bonus, there are ways to earn more action points in DnD naturally, but since action points would operate the same way and are for enacting your daily, this would represent that.
A large portion modify the hit roll AND the damage roll. The +/- modifier on a magic item applies to both. So a +1 dagger means it would have an increased damage potential from a standard dagger as much as a better ability to hit.
Defenses will undoubtedly be shifted to actually represent damage absorption of an attack not dodging as that is more in control of the players hands than the actual game. Healing surges, as I pointed out in another thread, would be too easily griefable and puts a rather annoying limitation on total healing that can be done since in an MMO you can't exactly have extended rests at any time you want and the entire world just shutting down for 8 hours, since there is no jump cut like you can do in a standard DnD game. I don't think we can say they are missing so much as being re-purposed.
Any change to the rules doesn't make it not DnD to me. What makes it DnD is the atmosphere, and the setting and the adventure to be had. It always has. I know few DMs who actually 100% stick to the rules as outlined in the book, and pretty much every DM has a "blue" book (aka house rules) set up that contradict a lot of what is already established. Dungeons and Dragons to me is about the story and enjoying my time with friends, it doesn't matter if the die rolling I used was Hero Games, White Wolfs or GURPs to me, it would still be DnD regardless of which arbitrary random system used would be it.
I know I never used the rules 100%, I would wager I cut 20% and "blue" booked many of them myself because I didn't like how they turned out one way or the other. The rules are guidelines, not cut in stone this is how it has to be. This si why I loved 2nd edition so much and why I don't like 3rd edition, because the rules for 2nd didn't feel so restrictive while the rules for 3rd did and felt more like I needed spreadsheets and advanced math skills to play. Many people might not have liked the THAC0 slide ruler, but I still have a place in my heart for it.
I like the 4e rules because they don't feel so cut in stone either, they need room for improvement, rules always do, but that's why many DM's have their "blue" book. So they can adjust things to how they feel they should be.
Because the stats determine the character just as much as you clicking on a mouse button.
Yes, and if I get up and swing in their face I am still left to random chance. Trying ot dodge the reason why it's not action by claiming I am not in somethings face while watching th die generator say hit or miss on it doesn't negate the fact that it is still random.
I downloaded it the other day in fact just to give it one more go just to see if I might enjoy it. My perception still hasn't changed at this point.
Hit and AC has been in because there is no other way in a PnP to determine it. Oh I can sit there and go I hit the goblin with my sword and we can call it a day, but it's there for that reason since you can't physically represent it on a piece of paper. This, however, is not true in a video game.
Because your damage increases, your defense increases, your hit points increase, the effect your stats increase. Hit and miss is not the only factor that determines your character improves at anything they do.
Because you have been. Really, don't tell people to stand in mirrors when you've been ignoring it yourself.
Because you don't want it to be like DnD doesn't mean it isn't. Your characters health, damage and statistics improve over time. The way things can be done and the items and gear influence all that. Just like in Zelda.
Actually, it's spot on. Your argument was no one can improve clicking. Yet clicking isn't the only thing improving your character.Your levels, stats, gear and all those factors are, just like in DnD. Just like your die roll technique doesn't improve your character at all, but their level, gear and bonuses all do.
They are quite well, one in teh same at this point. You chucking a dice will never, ever improve your ability to hit that monster. Just like me clicking a button will never ever improve my ability to hit that monster. The final determinant in both cases is gear, level, and abilities from leveling up.
And this si where you are confusing arbitrary. You "click" your ability in DnD but you aren't guaranteed it goes off like you intended, as the die is the final arbiter and decision maker. And considering "unlucky" streaks are always talked about you can't sit there and say that your intent to hit a baddie using a die always happens.
Ill type real simple this time. In DnD it's your damn characters stats that determine if you hit or miss or if you are hit or missed upon .
Do you follow me so far or is that too hard to understand?
With these changes to how we evade/dodge or are hit it is NO LONGER our characters stats that determine this REGARDLESS of our lvl or characters stats.
IF we don't click appropriately we will be hit and our characters stats will have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT AT ALL
Pray tell me wtf this reply has to do with what i said? Other that it mentions stats.
Seriously you mostly ignore my concerns and questions or statements and answer with some BS reply to try and make your self look good
I was saying they are removing a mechanic (to hit and good chances AC) to replace it with, us clicking and our hand eye coordination (like in a fps).
I didn't say there was no stats at all and your reply has no point at all.
In DDO your toons stats determines its success even the most inept hand eye coordinated person can improve even in epic difficulty.
It is action your just to daft to get why it is.
It is emulating real life, its DnD way of saying you opponent is more skillful with a blade and so you keep missing because he's turning your blows away with his weapon. But i hit him now an then you say so it don't make sense you will claim. It does because even in real life you may get some lucky hits in. There is nothing random about this
But u keep on as you are and continue to obfuscate things instead of really trying to understand what some of us are worried about.
Ive learned long ago not to argue with "fangirls"
Bull your just upset because im calling you out on your BS
at the very worst its pot calling kettle.
No, you just didn't like my analogies and when you didn't like them you went to calling names. I've not done anything other than point the view out and why they don't differ like you say they do. You decided that not only did you not like the answers, you wanted to start hurling insults and names.
There isn't any pretending to be innocent of the matter in this instance. I was never rude or insulting in my response I was pointing things out and I am sorry you don't like that I can compare a d20 die throw and stat modification to a mouse click with stat modifications as well.
You just ignored my points and gave some inane replies and tried to obfuscate. Some of your replies were simply an insult to my intelligence
Also that last post you quoted me i was the process of editing but you ofc are so quick on the quote and play the wounded damsel routine 2 mins was to slow on my part.
Was my last post on page 5 a bit insulting perhaps it was but so were some of your statement add in the fact you don't ever reply directly to my main point.
This isn't about my not having the same point of view as you this is about you being unable to accept or even explain why you think the analogy your whole argument is based is correct when i have been showing why it is not and pointing the flaw out.
This is what your basing all this on by your own words:
This is flawed you seem not to want to see why or just don't get it.
You are comparing the "action" of picking up some dice and throwing them on the table with clicking on a mouse . I have no problem with the rest of it but this part if wrong and flawed.
what you should be comparing it too is the actual dice roll (not the movement made to get the dice roll) this is your error.
I can be handicapped and still do the dice roll. It won't affect the results in GAME. My toon will take that roll and add any modifiers my stats and gear allow me to and achieve the same results regardless of my hand was shaking or whatnot.
BY your analogy this would no longer be true, if i am handicapped i may not have the required min skill needed to even " physically make the roll" so to speak, seeing as this requires some actiony clicking on my part.
The analogy should be dice roll ( the results not the action of doing it) plus stats mods etc which are all "in game mechanics"
The mouse clicking you are replacing the roll with an "outside of the game" mechanic plus adding an in game mechanic.
This was is my last attempt to explain it to you, its 4am and im working later and im too tired to post after this one.
It's not flawed. Your d20 roll, regardless of how you throw that die, is not ever changing. It is randomly going to come up on a number 1 through 20. Your game statistics are what modify it and improve that roll or determine it's outcome. The same with the mouse click. Me clicking the mouse is not ever going to change how it reacts. What changes those things are the gear, stats and abilities of the character as the character has leveled up. I got it, you just don't want to acknowledge it. you equated to throwing a die as determining your skill in an argument and saying your character grows because of that die throwing while at the same time nothing ever changes by clicking a mouse button. I countered it by stating, correctly, that no matter how you throw that die, it isn't going to improve as you are just throwing a die and the modifiers, like in a computer game, determine the final outcome.
It really isn't. Tell me how is moving your hand and tossing a die out any different from clicking that mouse? Both produce an effect and in this instance, both are modified by game statistics to determine the final outcome.
there was no comparison made to the actual movement, this was made to the die roll. The analogy I used was correct, this is a nit pick to nit pick.
This analogy is off because there are people handicapped who can't even roll dice just like there are people who are handicapped to be unable to play computers. But that would be hyperbole to say that's 100% true because I do have handicapped friends who run circles around people in twitch based games. And I don't mean legs handicapped only I mean they have very limited muscle control in their entire body type handicapped.
Again this is a nit pick to nit pick because that is exactly what I implied anyways.
#1 Silver: If you never experienced lag in DDO, you did not play the game for very long.
#2 You both bring up interesting points, but if you show me a d&d system where there is no to-hit, and AC has been misspelled DR, then I'm sorry but thats not D&D to me.
#3 The fact of the matter though is chances are 4e will work out fine for Neverwinter, because as we learned from DDO, an MMO at best will only be loosely based on 4e. This is not pnp, and its not your daddy's D&D.
I do agree they are the same but you are ignoring one important difference in computer based random number generation vs actual rolling of dice:
Cheating!!! - is not possible on computer.
It may be good thing or bad considering whether you enjoy rogue skills in game or not.
Please carry on
Heh again you not reading what im saying a twisting it around.
Like you said it doesn't matter how you throw the dice it will give you 1 to 20 which emulates your toons skill plus it adds modifiers (gears stats etc).
Mouse clicking doesn't give you 1 to 20 chance when it comes to dodging or misses by critter because of your ac.
THE clicking skills if your not good enough will result in you getting hit every time EXACTLY BECAUSE THERE NO ROLL
It's different in that it doesn't matter HOW you throw the dice, you can suck on em for luck and spit them out ,toss em with your toes. blow on em etc, the IMPORTANT thing is the results because you get to add them to your modifiers.
With this action clicking thing HOW you manually click IS IMPORTANT, it will be the difference between being hit or being missed etc.
For some one that say is slightly handicapped or just less skillfull manually it will be 0 plus modifiers instead of 1 to 20 plus modifiers.
So in all eventuality will that will mean getting hit every time for these people.
Not to contradict your point, but cheating is very possible in a computer game
Cheaters are a constant thorn in the side of developers in MMO genre, in fact
And my counter argument to that was that in pen and paper it is needed because there is no physical way to determine a hit or miss otherwise visually or metaphorically. But that roll can be determined by rock/papers/scissors just as much as a die roll. This is not true in a visual computer game where you can control where your attack will go or land.
If Neverwinter was a turned based game where we were using mini mode representations that only slightly animated to show we attacked (like in the flash on facebook) yea I would agree that to-hit and AC would be needed in that methodology of the medium. But the game plays in real time, with you at the helm and controlling your character. A single combat round won't take up to 20 minutes or more to resolve here, it will happen as it happens.
but does it matter or not WHEN I make my attack button push or not?
Because if I am facing an enemy and choose to attack and the computer bases the hit on my stats (that is whether it hits or how much it hits depending on the model) or when the TIMING of my attack is for that "soft target," then it becomes a factor if it's MY response or my character. So is the reaction time a factor, or is it simply "keeping the enemy in my sights" and letting my CHARACTER'S stats do the rest?
I think I get your point. The campaigns would depend on how skilled you are with controls, and rather than that laid back attitude one will have to keep clicking and clicking.
Although I still like this new idea of actually dodging out of the way instead of rolling to dodge, I have to agree that it is a game-changer and not old dnd laid back brainy-building and then observing style but a immersing(or frustrating) click click style like maybe, rusty hearts or vindictus.
EDIT: Although I still agree with Silver that actual dodging is more immersive and exciting than virtual dodging by rolling.