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Calling all tanks to go on Strike

knowfear4#5964 knowfear4 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
I tried discussing the fact with players, tanks suck and are boring, in my alliance and no one cares as long as they have fun. Just do your job and let us have fun seems to be the attitude. Well the devs don't seem to care, DPS classes don't care. Even with 85% awareness some trash mobs can kill me if the healer is busy scratching his behind and a mile behind the rest of the group. If tanks want change we can bring this game to it's knees.
No more RAQ, no more RTQ's, no more hard trial runs, No more Ancient Dragon, A lot of Reapers will be next to impossible.
I don't like the fact that my performance is based off whether the healer is built right, or the DPS kills trash mobs faster than the trash mobs kill me. No other classes performance dependent on other classes to do a job. I hate that DPS can run ahead and kill everything, without a healer or tank, till a boss comes up. It's pretty sad that a naked DPS class can out DPS my 80k tank. I feel no progression. You would think that raising my item level while maintaining my stat caps would make me a stronger tank, but with scaling in dungeons it doesn't. When I work on my rogue I can feel him getting stronger killing faster, taking on 10 mobs at a time and killing them all in 3 button pushes, without taking damage. When I try the same thing with my tank it can take 5 minutes to kill mobs and sometimes stuff respawns and adds to the misery.

What also sucks is that people take advantage of tanks. Tank gear is more expensive than other classes gear. We could literally charge coal motes for our work if we wanted to be jerks. I've seen 5 different groups trying to form looking for tanks for over 30 minutes. I just spam will tank anything for 2 coals for 20 minute run, just to HAMSTER people off.

The alternative if they don't want to fix us is make dps so squishy they will die to 1 hit. This would then give tanks something to do when fighting trash mobs. I've tried not taunting any trash mobs in RTQ's, RAQ's and Reapers and the dps never die. Making DPS more squishy would also make them more aware of their threat meters and use them instead of yelling at tanks for losing agro. The threat meter is there for a reason and threat management is a 2 way street. Tanks should try and hold agro, DPS and healers should be able to gear for less threat at the cost of dps or healing higher or dps should watch their meter and slow their dps to allow tanks to catch up on the threat. Instead they front load all their damage by blowing all their cool downs at the start of the fight and go "you suck tank." If they front load their damaged and trash mobs and bosses sit on their face they would not do it anymore.

Your choice devs, nerf DPS survive ability, or you could make tanks more tanky to trash mobs and increase our DPS. The alternative is we go on strike and the game could possibly die before you can blink an eye.
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Comments

  • johnalansimmonsjohnalansimmons Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 18 Arc User
    The above post is OH SO TRUE. The other day doing RC the 3 dps’ers consistently ran ahead of me as tank during the mob content with 1 or 2 frequently dying and yell ‘stupid tank, why don’t you get aggro’. It wasn’t until the boss fight they stayed behind until I got aggro. This consistently happens with heavily scaled content; it is not until they are in the harder content like dragons runs that many dps’ers use their heads and work with the tank. Even then many of them rage quit if they die and the tank or healer does not raise them. The tank can’t afford to lose aggro and if the healer raises them someone else will likely die and if that someone is the healer or the tank then everyone dies.
  • masteryoda#6623 masteryoda Member Posts: 224 Arc User
    I disagree with quite a lot of this rant. Enjoyment of a role is always going to be a personal opinion, so not going to get into that other than to say I personally do enjoy the tank role.

    I do not think tanks are overly reliant on any other role any more than the other roles rely on us, while trashy mobs are inconsistent with damage output I don't think it's worth moaning that dps can kill them faster than they kill them mostly this is only in extreme cases that dps can run through a dungeon without a tank or healer and you know what if their dps is good enough to do so because they have put in the effort to make it so than what's the issue why make it harder for those who are not as extreme. If your getting through the dungeon efficiently what's the point to be moaning about it. I mean if dps run ahead and end up dead that's their issue but if they are actually capable of spamming through the trash than so what...as for needing a healer tied to your waist I don't honestly do not understand this concept, I am a Paladin tank main literally all I play is tank and I have never felt like I need a healer tied to my waist for running through mobs in dungeons, sure might have to take a potion now and again but so what again I can perform my role absolutely fine. I can do all solo content again comfortably. At the end of the day yes we have a harder job with out a healer and dps just ad they have a harder job without a tank, we are a trinity after all. There's already plenty of role check mechanic with bosses. Again as for the toxicity of players who aggro everything than ends up getting the group killed, or players steamroller everything than want to moan that everyone else aren't pulling their weight that is a personality issue with said person not a broken aspect of the game. You will find such toxicity in every game, no point penalising everyone for a few bad apples.

    Now this isn't to say the role is perfect, I and many others have posted issue with the tank role that could be improved, and cryptic have not remained silent on the topic, they know they need to work on it they have said they intend to rework character and they have said the are planning on working on QoL solutions for the tank in multiple ways so to claim the developers don't care is just absolutely wrong.

    Honestly though do you know how ridiculous it sounds to demand, literally demand, that dps get survivability nerfed or tanks get higher defence+increased damage output, or we all go on strike (which is laughable) I mean how entitled do you think you are seriously.
  • knowfear4#5964 knowfear4 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited August 13

    I disagree with quite a lot of this rant. Enjoyment of a role is always going to be a personal opinion, so not going to get into that other than to say I personally do enjoy the tank role.

    I do not think tanks are overly reliant on any other role any more than the other roles rely on us, while trashy mobs are inconsistent with damage output I don't think it's worth moaning that dps can kill them faster than they kill them mostly this is only in extreme cases that dps can run through a dungeon without a tank or healer and you know what if their dps is good enough to do so because they have put in the effort to make it so than what's the issue why make it harder for those who are not as extreme. If your getting through the dungeon efficiently what's the point to be moaning about it. I mean if dps run ahead and end up dead that's their issue but if they are actually capable of spamming through the trash than so what...as for needing a healer tied to your waist I don't honestly do not understand this concept, I am a Paladin tank main literally all I play is tank and I have never felt like I need a healer tied to my waist for running through mobs in dungeons, sure might have to take a potion now and again but so what again I can perform my role absolutely fine. I can do all solo content again comfortably. At the end of the day yes we have a harder job with out a healer and dps just ad they have a harder job without a tank, we are a trinity after all. There's already plenty of role check mechanic with bosses. Again as for the toxicity of players who aggro everything than ends up getting the group killed, or players steamroller everything than want to moan that everyone else aren't pulling their weight that is a personality issue with said person not a broken aspect of the game. You will find such toxicity in every game, no point penalising everyone for a few bad apples.

    Now this isn't to say the role is perfect, I and many others have posted issue with the tank role that could be improved, and cryptic have not remained silent on the topic, they know they need to work on it they have said they intend to rework character and they have said the are planning on working on QoL solutions for the tank in multiple ways so to claim the developers don't care is just absolutely wrong.

    Honestly though do you know how ridiculous it sounds to demand, literally demand, that dps get survivability nerfed or tanks get higher defence+increased damage output, or we all go on strike (which is laughable) I mean how entitled do you think you are seriously.

    That last paragraph sounds like a DPS scared he might have to learn to play the game. Really if I serve no purpose in a dungeon. Can die to trash mobs if dps can't kill it fast enough because the healer decides to open a chest or go to the rest room, if I'm required to take potions to survive trash mobs in the above scenarios whats the point of a tank if DPS can do it better? I can basically do a lot of boss fights without a healer or using heal potions/health stones but a few trash mobs can plant me into the ground face first? I've tried having 80% awareness and it doesn't help reduce the damage. It's ridiculous that 5 trash mobs can instantly reduce my stamina to 0 in a second. No Stamina + no shield = dead tank if no healer. If I can take my lowest iLV (the minimum to enter a dungeron) DPS character into a dungeon and not die because I'm able to stay out of the red, use my common sense to not stand next to the tank and eat cleaves then why can't other DPS. In mods 16 to 19 I could face tank(tank mobs without using shield) trash mobs. How was that possible? Because I had all my Defensive stats capped and they worked to improve my survive-ability. Since the combat changes its almost impossible to get all your stats capped as a tank but it is possible as a dps to cap all stats. There are items that increase stats after certain conditions or over a period of time during a fight or if in a group, but tanks are not DPS. We can't wait 20 seconds for defensive stats to build up to it's full potential we need them always maxed out. Imagine an M1A1 tank having to take a few RPGs before it's armor works at maximum potential.

    The devs hate tanks, they have nerfed incoming healing 5x, put cool downs on insignia bonuses that heal, made it so that our stats have to build up to be max, have less gear choices than other classes, increased mob combat advantage damage against tanks, removed bonding rune stones so we don't benefit as much from having a companion, give us Augment companions that don't have all 3 stats that benefit tanks, give us companion equip bonuses that are too low and does not allow us to put offensive companion equip bonuses, put a dps penalty of 30% just for being a tank, not having the ability to have anyway to raise offensive stats makes it so we probably have a -80% dps rating allowing naked DPS to do more damage than us. A stuck in combat bug that keeps us from opening chest or going through doors first so that we don't run ahead. Give us a slow movement speed with no skill to move faster like other classes stamina skills. Not fixing us so we need a ring, artifact set(neck, belt, artifact) to be able to get and hold agro and it still doesn't work against the DPS power creep.

    With barely any good items for tanks I have no incentive to run dungeons like VOS or ancient dragons once I have all my pieces. I feel no difference in my tanks ability to tank with 55k iLV gear vs my now 80k iLV gear. If you are a DPS or healer you can feel your damage going up, you can see your heals healing more. I do not see my survive-ability changing with new gear and since dungeons just end up being scaled there really is no point in getting new gear as a tank.

    The fact that DPS can run ahead without the healer or tank and take less damage than a tank is a slap in the face. I've seen some healers put stats into defense since they don't need as many stats to heal good and tank trash mobs better than tanks. I hate that if I get a scrub healer in my group who basically just switched roles from a DPS to a healer and didn't change any gear, companions, insignias, mount bonuses thinks he can heal and causes me to die constantly while the DPS are unaffected by this till boss fights.

    In fights where players are trapped in ice, or chained I can do nothing to help them out. 2nd boss of IC if 2 dps are chained there's no way the healer and tank and 1 dps can break both DPS out in time. In rare occasions where a lot of people die in Svardborg we can complete the dungeon with a healer a tank and a few dps but if those dps get locked in ice it's game over because the tank and healer can't do a thing to save them. Second boss of LoM I used to be able to charge into the boulders and break them now I need smite or Gond's anvil of creation. I can only hit a few boulders with smite then I'm out of divinity. It sucks that as a healer my paladin can regen divinity faster than my tank even out of combat. Sometimes mobs die so fast and we move to the next group divinity still hasn't regenerated because the Devs feel that we have to get hit or hit something to regen divinity and gave us such a small pool of divinity compared to healers.

    Edit: Forgot about reaper LoM can't kill mimics with out tunnel vision.

    You said it your self it's supposed to be a holy trinity. Why are DPS and sometimes even healers exempt from this trinity but tanks are locked in hard with no exceptions. I Played world of warcraft for over 5 years. I played every class that could tank. This games tanks are a joke after the combat changes. As a tank I controlled the pace and decision on what got pulled. I would body pull to break groups or tell other classes what mobs to CC so we don't pull too many mobs that are linked. If a DPS agro was getting too high I would warn them back off or you'll die. DPS knew not to pull agro because it would be a one shot for them if they did. The penalty was gold to repair armor if you died. An Idiot DPs could see himself with an 80 gold repair bill, if you played war craft it you would know that 80 gold was a lot and could take you a while to earn. There are many dungeons in this game where 4 DPS 1 healer can complete them without a tank. I know people who do VOS like this.

    Like I said above. Give tanks better survive-ability against trash mobs, allow us to contribute DPS by removing the DPS penalty of 30%. Or nerf DPS and healer survive-ability by giving them a -30% to defensive stats. Fair is fair. I can't DPS because I'm a tank then DPS and healers shouldn't be able to tank mobs.
    Post edited by knowfear4#5964 on
  • masteryoda#6623 masteryoda Member Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited August 13
    Im not going to sit here for an hour pulling apart what you have said, and yes few things are true however your wrong in how bad you make it out to be, I have no issue tanking trashy mobs, I have no issue killing mobs if I want, no naked dps is going to do more damage than me sry but no, I do still set the pace of dungeons, yes again are things perfect no, is this game wow? No. Yes there are things I'd like to see changed yes I'd like to see better companions for tanks as such sure but that's not the point. You literally come here to call all tanks to go on strike to demand cryptic listen to you because your not happy, you think you speak for all tanks that's just ridiculous. So go on with your ranting all you wish but the original post just looks ridiculous and arrogant.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 11,159 Arc User
    OP should go on strike in the game and here right now. I fully support that.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • knowfear4#5964 knowfear4 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    nerf dps survival-ability, learn 2 play
  • johnnystranger#5900 johnnystranger Member Posts: 448 Arc User
    I haven’t had any problems tanking . I out dps many a dps as well . Always hold aggro except for a few seconds once in awhile when top dps unleashes daily , tunnel vision and 3 encounters all within short time .
    Sure there’s some eager dps , let em go n die , they’re usually the sweaty dps looking for #’s .
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited August 14
    I do not know anyone’s IRL situation, but I would guess not many people are playing any game just because they have a person with a big whip standing behind their back, ready to strike whenever you take a break. This game is imperfect, but no-one forces you to do things you hate except you yourself.

    1. Many RC maps have clearly never had any kind of balance test - but once you try the map/modification, you can easily figure out if you want that experience ever again.
    2. There are players that are PITA to run with, but you can as well run with some reasonable people... the choice is yours to make.
    3. The chase of stat cap... frankly, I do not understand why would anyone even try to do such a thing. Some stats even bring lesser impact the more you already have, so running with them at 70 instead of 90 might be a noticeable difference, but in most cases is kinda OK. I know people want to solo tank TOMM or whatever, but really, you should not feel discouraged that pushing the system past its intended design is not easy.
    4. About gear being more expensive: Well, IMO the best neck-waist-art set for barb/fighter tank is either Valhalla or the new Demo. One is cheap and while the other is meant for DPS, it has perfect STR/CON and helps with keeping aggro by increasing your damage. Especially in scaled content you can make your life easier by REMOVING combat enchantment and companion gem - and running with Drizzt, Bruenor or even some capable healing companion. Not chasing META sometimes brings better experience. (Chitters's Fangs and Manticore's bite FTW =) )
    edit: 5. Be fair: DPS have bonus to damage, tanks have bonus to HP. It is not like tanks have nothing.

    Generally,.. if you have some suggestions, leave them brief and structured in the feedback section (the final resting place for many forever untouched ideas.) If you realize your goals are unreachable, change them. If you do not like some maps, avoid them. If you do not like your class, try another. If you do not like the game, find another.
  • muschellka#7783 muschellka Member Posts: 111 Arc User
    Omg, how repetitive.
    On average once a year some tank shows up with a pain in the HAMSTER for not being worshipped by the dps in the game.
    The worse and undereducated he is, the more arrogant and demanding he is.
    Boring.
  • pherrowpherrow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 413 Arc User
    When I tank I keep it moving so people don't have to wait. And I like my trash mobs neat and organized. Don't care much other wise. Someone dies, they die.

    When I dps I run ahead cause I don't like to wait for tanks that are slow...or need validation and want to feel appreciated for little trash mobs. If I die I die.

    When I heal, I do a thing every 10-15 seconds and scratch my azz... and wait for everyone to catch up... maybe I die maybe they die.

    Everybody wants their own experience when they do a run. Sometimes it doesn't mesh well with the group. I prefer different things just based on what I'm running. What I don't get is why people need validation for the little <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Everyone has to feel so damn needed.

    But just like those in game that don't care about this issue, neither does cryptic, nor probably most of the people here.
  • pherrowpherrow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 413 Arc User

    nerf dps survival-ability, learn 2 play

    The real tanks, healers, those weird Bard things and dps'ers have long since learned to play and have made their game what they want. If they post here it's usually suggestions minus the whine. ( However, I feel that suggestions and/or whining lands on deaf ears equally)

    L2p seems to be YOUR next move truthfully. If you need help I'll donate one of those new fancy movement enchants and a potion or two of STFU. J/k, no such potion unfortunately but I will get you one of those enchants to help you stay ahead of those pesky dps'ers stealin' all yer shine. Send pm here with your ingame @handle then hit me up in game. @pherrow
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    Ok Tanks
    Everyone says git gud.

    Problem solved.
  • knowfear4#5964 knowfear4 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    Like movement enchantments get you through doors when your stuck because of a combat bug that keeps you in combat long after the group has gone through. You guys are talking out your asses. No on needs a tank for trash mobs unless its a reaper and even then its debatable, I tried not doing anything on trash mobs in RTQ, RAQ and reapers and just stood there. We made it to the boss no problems. I can run my rogue at 55k through a dungeon and blow way past the healer and tank. When I did the adult dragon quest, It took my tank 21 minutes to complete it. Other tanks in my guild took 29 min. My rogue took 7 minutes. For my tank that's 3x the time to do solo content vs DPS classes. If a DPS screw up on the 2nd boss of IC and are waiting at a campfire. Should the fight just end when 2 dps, tank and healer are still up? Well if the last 2 dps get chained by the boss the fights over because we the tank and healer have no hope of breaking both chains.

    If I lower my defenses to put offensive stats and get a run with a healer who just swapped roles to speed up his queue times, I'll be wasting heal pots or stones of health like crazy. In mods 16 to 19 I wouldn't need to worry about heals for trash mobs, I only needed heals for the bosses. Now I need heals for mobs and don't really need a healer for bosses. Why? In mods 16 to 19 I could pull up to 5 to 7 groups of mobs at one time and the healer could keep me up. In this new mod I can pull 2 groups but the healer better be good and if the healer is awesome I can pull 3 groups at once. With dumb DPS opening portals in spell plague caverns you could end up with more than 4 groups pulled.

    I have had my stats at 90% def, 82.5% awareness, 79% crit avoidance 53% deflect and could get these numbers higher if things proc. I felt no difference in survive-ability if I lower it to 90% def, 68% awareness, 70% crit avoidance. Why? Shouldn't tanks have the same feeling of progress by getting better gear as other classes?
    My tank feels the same at 55k iLV as when I have 81k iLV.

    A developer came on the forums and said before mod 16 that he is being honest and open here, tanks have a -30% to DPS. I believe that this handicap is still in place and the fact we cannot put too many stats into offensive stats or decrease our ability as tanks makes it more like 80% less dps than other classes. Why can't they remove this now because it's impossible for tanks to even get to a cap in the offensive stats? The new system purposely limits us, why do we still have this handicap?

    I'm sorry 20% bonus to hp is nothing. I have 1.2 million hit points. I have seen most end game DPS with 900k to 1 million hit points are you saying what makes us a tank is having 200k more hit point? DPS get + 20% to DPS, this helps them do their job of doing DPS. Shouldn't they get a handicap like 20% more damage taken? Wouldn't the bonus stats for tanks be better having a -20% incoming damage resistance over 20% hp? In my case 1 million hit points gives 200k hp this is a slap in the face.

    Look at healers they get 10% more hp, 10% more DPS. Tanks get 20% more hp and -30% out going damage a fact which they still hide even after admitting that they do this. No other classes gets a - stat but tanks. If you don't believe this is true make a fresh tank, make a fresh dps level them to lv 20. DO not get mounts or companions. When you get to 20 strip them both naked except the weapons they were given and go kill stuff.

    If you look at the stats page you can see the bonus for hp by highlighting your hps and the bonus to DPS by highlighting DPS. If you scroll to the bottom you can see stats for incoming healing, outgoing healing, magical damage boost, physical damage boost. Stats relevant to DPS and Healers. Do you see any stats referring to damage reduction or resistance? Why is this stat omitted? I can equip a companion that gives me 7.5% reduction to incoming damage. There are the bracers that can give you 1% and stack to 5%, there are pants that give you 3% for a total of 15.5% reduction to incoming damage. You would think if there was 15.5% reduction to incoming damage it would be quite noticeable but it's not. I have the +6% damage resistance to dragons equipped to my quick slot, this would put my total damage resistance to 21.5% if fighting dragons. My Defense being 90% means that I reduce all damage by 50%, so I should have 71.5% base reduction in damage fighting dragons. Awareness, crit avoid and deflect should reduce damage even more. If I use Absolution that should be another 20% damage mitigation for 8 seconds. Why don't I see 91% mitigation to incoming damage when fighting dragons? Not one paladin I know uses absolution because it doesn't do anything but take up a slot a waste a cool down. There is no way you would not notice a 91% damage reduction. If I'm wrong and the stats works differently than all other stats, why does it work differently for just this stat?

    SO tanks are treated differently than other classes. We do not get to see our damage resistance stats. There is no base damage resistance stat. So there is something obviously broke or rigged here. You should see and feel a 91.5% mitigation unless there are diminishing returns at work here. If it is not additive then that's messed up having us chase a stat that doesn't stack. Or if works like other stats like power you have 20% power you add 7% you get 27% power, that means if tanks have 0% damage resistance then adding 7.5% would do nothing because you would have to have a rating equal to half your iLV, in other words 0 rating times 7.5% equals zero. Why not show this stat? Are they hiding something? Are they manipulating this stat and by not showing it to us so we can't prove it?

    I checked my lv 20 cleric which has excess junk gear slapped on it. Not a single piece of outgoing healing but the stats show she has 42% outgoing healing with out any gear, comps etc. contributing to this stat. I look at my rogue and he has 33.8%. So we can say there is a base outgoing healing stat. Why isn't there a base damage resistance stat?

    Perhaps the devs know there is a problem and put out gear like rusted iron leggings that reduce incoming heals by 25% or sharp longboots of the hunter which reduce crit avoid by 30% or the healer boots that increase outing heals by 5% and decrease incoming heals by 30%. They need to fix the system not patch it with gear that most people won't take if it causes them to die more.

    I did a reaper a few days ago. The healer for some unknown reason didn't stay with the group and we pressed forward. I was at 10% health, no consumables, no revives, no health regen, was the handicap. Why is my function as a tank handicapped by another player. The dps kept moving forward. I tried to help with out dying but there is no way I'm going to taunt mobs at this point. The dps were able to keep killing till we got to the final boss. We waited for the healer and he was stationary. We eventually kicked him and replaced. The leader of this reaper put us in a public queue so we were at the mercy of whatever the public queue gave us as a replacement for this reaper. If this was mod 16 to 19, I would have been at full health and not worrying if the healer was picking his nose or whatever. I would have had no problems tanking this boss without heals or heal pots/health stones, can't say the same for the DPS. Even in this current mod I can tank most bosses without the healer. Most bosses don't hit that hard and in this reaper DPS and healer could have completed it without a tank. All the DPS have to do is not be so focused on doing as much damage as possible and move out of the red and dodge the visible physical attacks the boss is about to do.

    When tales of old came out people cried that it was so hard. I had a hard time getting my rogue and hunter into tales because their iLv was at the minimum to participate. I never died on either character and could complete a 5x run while DPS with 20k more item level were dying. If they give DPS an increased damage taken or -20% hp nerf they would have to learn to play better. It's no wonder that a lot of RTQs never get completed and have to be reworked because it's too hard for these dps to learn how to play. Too much coddling, give me cool loot I don't want to be a good player to get it just give it to me. The Devs go it's too hard poor dps lets rework the new Demo, Oh no the new Tiamat is too hard too lets make it easier.

    I always get compliments on being a good tank so stuff the comments of me being a bad tank. I'm bored, I realized that there is no point to being a tank for 95% of the dungeons like I said on another thread just make a summon tank to boss ability for the group. I have better things to do than pretend I'm needed when I've obviously noticed dps can handle trash mobs better than tanks. Getting new gear doesn't enhance my characters ability to do the job. I could have stay iLV 55 which I was at the start combat changes, since I feel no increase of tankiness as a iLV81k tank. So I ask you why play, why gear up. People ask me to do dungeons and I go why whats in it for me? Many tanks on Playstation feel the same and have left the game or switch to DPS or healer classes. I know a lot of players have switched to Guild Wars 2. I'm thinking of playing Tower of Fantasy.

    I used to love this game but why do the DPS and Healer classes only get a sense of progression?

    Maybe most of you are new players and have only started since mod 20. You think tanks are fine, but if you could have seen what tanks were like in mod 16 to 19. You'd be pissed too. It's like discussing having your balls chopped with a eunuch. The eunuch not having balls will say it's fine I never noticed a problem with not having balls. While the guy who lost his balls whole life has changed.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 11,159 Arc User


    Maybe most of you are new players and have only started since mod 20. You think tanks are fine, but if you could have seen what tanks were like in mod 16 to 19. You'd be pissed too. It's like discussing having your balls chopped with a eunuch. The eunuch not having balls will say it's fine I never noticed a problem with not having balls. While the guy who lost his balls whole life has changed.

    So, you lose your balls. Re-attach the balls do not make you the same as before neither.

    If you want to go back, go all the way back to mod 6. OP (Oathbound Paladin) was the king. Bubble OP protected them all. OP had 360 degree of protection. OP ruled in PVP, etc. You thought you lose your balls and you do not know you lose the whole bottom half of the body.

    Sorry, we can't go back.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    Sounds like OP just needs to form a static group or guild of players that likes to play like they do. You won't be able to change how the player base plays, there are tanks that are happy with how things are (some even have pushed for those changes that OP hates so much with M20). Feel free to 'strike' but I think you would be better served by controlling who you group with than with changing how the player base as a whole wants to play.
  • pherrowpherrow Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 413 Arc User
    Well I'll say a bit more although it won't contribute usefully to the thread. Many people have felt the pain over the years, it's certainly not exclusive to current times and just "hated" tanks.

    Mod 6 and perma bubble is why I made a Pali tank. Archers in bs content 1 shot your face. Needed a broken class to get regular people through regular content that was broken. Cryptic's answer? Leave Pali broken until they could actually fix the problem (at least that's my opinion).

    By the OPs complaint tanks are hated but if he played long enough he would see that all classes were seemingly hated at one point or another (and apparently other's were supposedly loved). Hell, it seemed like they nerfed DC for sport on some occasions.

    I get people need to come here hoping to foster change and air their grievances but the only consistent thing you will see is that cryptic will find a way to let you down. Whether it's "fixing" Xuna...like twice, then making her available on Zen Market and then nerfing her immediately after they got everyone's money or reselling everyone's Bonding Runes back to them essentially to compensate for power creep (longish story if you don't know), on and on. The list is just too long but mostly all shady practices by Cryptic.

    Your basic choices seem to be roughly mold your playstyle to something you like in the current atmosphere or move on for a while, check back to see if anything changed and is more favorable for how you like doing things. Just remember, as their current model demonstrates, they only care about cycling in new players. They may promise things, say they are working hard for the players, smile in your face, have feel good streams, CDP...whatever... BUT they don't care about long time players.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 877 Arc User

    Like movement enchantments get you through doors when your stuck because of a combat bug that keeps you in combat long after the group has gone through. You guys are talking out your asses. No on needs a tank for trash mobs unless its a reaper and even then its debatable, I tried not doing anything on trash mobs in RTQ, RAQ and reapers and just stood there. We made it to the boss no problems. I can run my rogue at 55k through a dungeon and blow way past the healer and tank. When I did the adult dragon quest, It took my tank 21 minutes to complete it. Other tanks in my guild took 29 min. My rogue took 7 minutes. For my tank that's 3x the time to do solo content vs DPS classes. If a DPS screw up on the 2nd boss of IC and are waiting at a campfire. Should the fight just end when 2 dps, tank and healer are still up? Well if the last 2 dps get chained by the boss the fights over because we the tank and healer have no hope of breaking both chains.

    If I lower my defenses to put offensive stats and get a run with a healer who just swapped roles to speed up his queue times, I'll be wasting heal pots or stones of health like crazy. In mods 16 to 19 I wouldn't need to worry about heals for trash mobs, I only needed heals for the bosses. Now I need heals for mobs and don't really need a healer for bosses. Why? In mods 16 to 19 I could pull up to 5 to 7 groups of mobs at one time and the healer could keep me up. In this new mod I can pull 2 groups but the healer better be good and if the healer is awesome I can pull 3 groups at once. With dumb DPS opening portals in spell plague caverns you could end up with more than 4 groups pulled.

    I have had my stats at 90% def, 82.5% awareness, 79% crit avoidance 53% deflect and could get these numbers higher if things proc. I felt no difference in survive-ability if I lower it to 90% def, 68% awareness, 70% crit avoidance. Why? Shouldn't tanks have the same feeling of progress by getting better gear as other classes?
    My tank feels the same at 55k iLV as when I have 81k iLV.

    A developer came on the forums and said before mod 16 that he is being honest and open here, tanks have a -30% to DPS. I believe that this handicap is still in place and the fact we cannot put too many stats into offensive stats or decrease our ability as tanks makes it more like 80% less dps than other classes. Why can't they remove this now because it's impossible for tanks to even get to a cap in the offensive stats? The new system purposely limits us, why do we still have this handicap?

    I'm sorry 20% bonus to hp is nothing. I have 1.2 million hit points. I have seen most end game DPS with 900k to 1 million hit points are you saying what makes us a tank is having 200k more hit point? DPS get + 20% to DPS, this helps them do their job of doing DPS. Shouldn't they get a handicap like 20% more damage taken? Wouldn't the bonus stats for tanks be better having a -20% incoming damage resistance over 20% hp? In my case 1 million hit points gives 200k hp this is a slap in the face.

    Look at healers they get 10% more hp, 10% more DPS. Tanks get 20% more hp and -30% out going damage a fact which they still hide even after admitting that they do this. No other classes gets a - stat but tanks. If you don't believe this is true make a fresh tank, make a fresh dps level them to lv 20. DO not get mounts or companions. When you get to 20 strip them both naked except the weapons they were given and go kill stuff.

    If you look at the stats page you can see the bonus for hp by highlighting your hps and the bonus to DPS by highlighting DPS. If you scroll to the bottom you can see stats for incoming healing, outgoing healing, magical damage boost, physical damage boost. Stats relevant to DPS and Healers. Do you see any stats referring to damage reduction or resistance? Why is this stat omitted? I can equip a companion that gives me 7.5% reduction to incoming damage. There are the bracers that can give you 1% and stack to 5%, there are pants that give you 3% for a total of 15.5% reduction to incoming damage. You would think if there was 15.5% reduction to incoming damage it would be quite noticeable but it's not. I have the +6% damage resistance to dragons equipped to my quick slot, this would put my total damage resistance to 21.5% if fighting dragons. My Defense being 90% means that I reduce all damage by 50%, so I should have 71.5% base reduction in damage fighting dragons. Awareness, crit avoid and deflect should reduce damage even more. If I use Absolution that should be another 20% damage mitigation for 8 seconds. Why don't I see 91% mitigation to incoming damage when fighting dragons? Not one paladin I know uses absolution because it doesn't do anything but take up a slot a waste a cool down. There is no way you would not notice a 91% damage reduction. If I'm wrong and the stats works differently than all other stats, why does it work differently for just this stat?

    SO tanks are treated differently than other classes. We do not get to see our damage resistance stats. There is no base damage resistance stat. So there is something obviously broke or rigged here. You should see and feel a 91.5% mitigation unless there are diminishing returns at work here. If it is not additive then that's messed up having us chase a stat that doesn't stack. Or if works like other stats like power you have 20% power you add 7% you get 27% power, that means if tanks have 0% damage resistance then adding 7.5% would do nothing because you would have to have a rating equal to half your iLV, in other words 0 rating times 7.5% equals zero. Why not show this stat? Are they hiding something? Are they manipulating this stat and by not showing it to us so we can't prove it?

    I checked my lv 20 cleric which has excess junk gear slapped on it. Not a single piece of outgoing healing but the stats show she has 42% outgoing healing with out any gear, comps etc. contributing to this stat. I look at my rogue and he has 33.8%. So we can say there is a base outgoing healing stat. Why isn't there a base damage resistance stat?

    Perhaps the devs know there is a problem and put out gear like rusted iron leggings that reduce incoming heals by 25% or sharp longboots of the hunter which reduce crit avoid by 30% or the healer boots that increase outing heals by 5% and decrease incoming heals by 30%. They need to fix the system not patch it with gear that most people won't take if it causes them to die more.

    I did a reaper a few days ago. The healer for some unknown reason didn't stay with the group and we pressed forward. I was at 10% health, no consumables, no revives, no health regen, was the handicap. Why is my function as a tank handicapped by another player. The dps kept moving forward. I tried to help with out dying but there is no way I'm going to taunt mobs at this point. The dps were able to keep killing till we got to the final boss. We waited for the healer and he was stationary. We eventually kicked him and replaced. The leader of this reaper put us in a public queue so we were at the mercy of whatever the public queue gave us as a replacement for this reaper. If this was mod 16 to 19, I would have been at full health and not worrying if the healer was picking his nose or whatever. I would have had no problems tanking this boss without heals or heal pots/health stones, can't say the same for the DPS. Even in this current mod I can tank most bosses without the healer. Most bosses don't hit that hard and in this reaper DPS and healer could have completed it without a tank. All the DPS have to do is not be so focused on doing as much damage as possible and move out of the red and dodge the visible physical attacks the boss is about to do.

    When tales of old came out people cried that it was so hard. I had a hard time getting my rogue and hunter into tales because their iLv was at the minimum to participate. I never died on either character and could complete a 5x run while DPS with 20k more item level were dying. If they give DPS an increased damage taken or -20% hp nerf they would have to learn to play better. It's no wonder that a lot of RTQs never get completed and have to be reworked because it's too hard for these dps to learn how to play. Too much coddling, give me cool loot I don't want to be a good player to get it just give it to me. The Devs go it's too hard poor dps lets rework the new Demo, Oh no the new Tiamat is too hard too lets make it easier.

    I always get compliments on being a good tank so stuff the comments of me being a bad tank. I'm bored, I realized that there is no point to being a tank for 95% of the dungeons like I said on another thread just make a summon tank to boss ability for the group. I have better things to do than pretend I'm needed when I've obviously noticed dps can handle trash mobs better than tanks. Getting new gear doesn't enhance my characters ability to do the job. I could have stay iLV 55 which I was at the start combat changes, since I feel no increase of tankiness as a iLV81k tank. So I ask you why play, why gear up. People ask me to do dungeons and I go why whats in it for me? Many tanks on Playstation feel the same and have left the game or switch to DPS or healer classes. I know a lot of players have switched to Guild Wars 2. I'm thinking of playing Tower of Fantasy.

    I used to love this game but why do the DPS and Healer classes only get a sense of progression?

    Maybe most of you are new players and have only started since mod 20. You think tanks are fine, but if you could have seen what tanks were like in mod 16 to 19. You'd be pissed too. It's like discussing having your balls chopped with a eunuch. The eunuch not having balls will say it's fine I never noticed a problem with not having balls. While the guy who lost his balls whole life has changed.

    Why do you ask why to play, why to gear up? It seems you already have your answer: you obviously like feeling miserable and doing pointless things.

    I have to admit you found your perfect game here. Cryptic does not know games are supposed to be fun either. Players like you are exactly the reason why the game is bad. Freaking target audience. Oh, you have better things to do, but... you faithfully repeat thing you hate over and over again. Great. Just great. You are the root of the problem, sir.
  • muschellka#7783 muschellka Member Posts: 111 Arc User

    Ok Tanks
    Everyone says git gud.

    Problem solved.

    The previous big thread about the unfortunate wronged tanks, hated by malicious devs was about two-three years ago.
    You spoke out then as a beginner tank.
    If you haven't learned to play it by now.... well, I guess there's no hope for you, even if these tanks would be gilded.
  • muschellka#7783 muschellka Member Posts: 111 Arc User
    This has always wondered me. Why generally tanks are so crying. All in all, as if anyone really had a reason to cry, first and foremost it should be healers.
    What cryptic did with healing, all this HAMSTER reworking of them, is the biggest failure of the game.
    Out of 3 tanks in the game, only one class uses divinity.
    Out of four healers, every one of them has to use this HAMSTER, although they call it something else. From the beginning, the HAMSTER-up tab doesn't allow for normal smooth play.
    And the devs, instead of doing something constructive, put a monument to the worst tank in the game.
    Despite this... you don't see the "oh why do you devs hate healers so much?" threads.
  • auron#6793 auron Member Posts: 380 Arc User
    I play a Barbie tank myself and the only issues I have is when DPS use an item that generates agro. I Have the charging bull ring which helps but sometimes rogues in particular generate agro even when using hard taunts.
    <div align="center"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/YH9QCXK.png" alt="" /></div></img>
    ▂▃▄▅▆▇█▓▒░ Drac ░▒▓█▇▆▅▄▃▂
    There is supposed to be an image here, but the hamsters took it.
    <div align="center">AKA Draconis of Luskan</div>

    Take a backseat boy. Cause now I'm driving. ~ Give it up - Elizabeth Gilies ft. Ariana Grande

    RIP Foundry: On that day, when the sky fell away, our world came to an end. ~Lifelight
  • mignon#7663 mignon Member Posts: 29 Arc User
    Here are a few problems about tanks:
    1. Most tanks think they are perfect and not willing to take in any good advice.
    2. The only way to get gud is to actually learn from good tanks, which is hard to find.
    3. The game doesn't really explain much about how threat/aggro works.
    4. Most tanks think its the DPS'ers fault if they loose aggro on bosses.

    These are all sad but true
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 877 Arc User
    @mignon
    ad1: The most common advice I ever got was that unslotting taunt helps with agro... Most tanks learned to ignore advices the hard way.
    4: Well, sometimes it is. Especially in VoS when 70k+ DPS with BoA invites a developing 48k tank - it is the DPS fault not to adjust the play style according the party members.
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    > @muschellka#7783 said:
    > The previous big thread about the unfortunate wronged tanks, hated by malicious devs was about two-three years ago.
    > You spoke out then as a beginner tank.
    > If you haven't learned to play it by now.... well, I guess there's no hope for you, even if these tanks would be gilded.


    Lol
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    @mignon
    ad1: The most common advice I ever got was that unslotting taunt helps with agro... Most tanks learned to ignore advices the hard way.
    4: Well, sometimes it is. Especially in VoS when 70k+ DPS with BoA invites a developing 48k tank - it is the DPS fault not to adjust the play style according the party members.

    The tank should be learning how to time their taunts and maintain aggro, not ask the DPS to do less DPS. As long as the DPS isn't running ahead of the tank, I don't see why they should adjust.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 877 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    rikitaki said:

    @mignon
    ad1: The most common advice I ever got was that unslotting taunt helps with agro... Most tanks learned to ignore advices the hard way.
    4: Well, sometimes it is. Especially in VoS when 70k+ DPS with BoA invites a developing 48k tank - it is the DPS fault not to adjust the play style according the party members.

    The tank should be learning how to time their taunts and maintain aggro, not ask the DPS to do less DPS. As long as the DPS isn't running ahead of the tank, I don't see why they should adjust.
    Because with such difference in IL and gear it is impossible to keep up with the agro. It is not about learning to time the taunts, you will lose the aggro way before you can recast the taunt/you will run out of divinity. Taunts are great, but relying solely on them does not work.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,662 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    arazith07 said:

    rikitaki said:

    @mignon
    ad1: The most common advice I ever got was that unslotting taunt helps with agro... Most tanks learned to ignore advices the hard way.
    4: Well, sometimes it is. Especially in VoS when 70k+ DPS with BoA invites a developing 48k tank - it is the DPS fault not to adjust the play style according the party members.

    The tank should be learning how to time their taunts and maintain aggro, not ask the DPS to do less DPS. As long as the DPS isn't running ahead of the tank, I don't see why they should adjust.
    Because with such difference in IL and gear it is impossible to keep up with the agro. It is not about learning to time the taunts, you will lose the aggro way before you can recast the taunt/you will run out of divinity. Taunts are great, but relying solely on them does not work.
    Except that there are taunts that work better with higher damage volley. Not to mention that tanks gain aggro based on potential damage instead of actual damage dealt, and scaling is a thing that mitigates item level differences.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited September 1
    arazith07 said:

    rikitaki said:

    arazith07 said:

    rikitaki said:

    @mignon
    ad1: The most common advice I ever got was that unslotting taunt helps with agro... Most tanks learned to ignore advices the hard way.
    4: Well, sometimes it is. Especially in VoS when 70k+ DPS with BoA invites a developing 48k tank - it is the DPS fault not to adjust the play style according the party members.

    The tank should be learning how to time their taunts and maintain aggro, not ask the DPS to do less DPS. As long as the DPS isn't running ahead of the tank, I don't see why they should adjust.
    Because with such difference in IL and gear it is impossible to keep up with the agro. It is not about learning to time the taunts, you will lose the aggro way before you can recast the taunt/you will run out of divinity. Taunts are great, but relying solely on them does not work.
    Except that there are taunts that work better with higher damage volley. Not to mention that tanks gain aggro based on potential damage instead of actual damage dealt, and scaling is a thing that mitigates item level differences.
    VoS is not scaled. Have you ever tried the scenario I described? All taunts put you 20% higher than the top dealt damage, always - which, at the beginning of the boss fight, is nothing. And tanks gain aggro by actual damage, not potential - they just have additional multipliers.
    Kinda nice you have a lot to say here while having neither theoretical knowledge nor the practical experience to the topic.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,015 Arc User
    edited September 1
    1. There is no content currently in the game that can’t be tanked with gear you get from adventures. (100% free, AKA not expensive)
    2. There is one tank (barbarian) that can be a little tricky when it comes to threat generation. This is a playstyle issue, not a game issue.
    3. There is no content in the game that requires that tanks cap ANY defensive stats.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • maarte#2715 maarte Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    There are problems with tanks that should be addressed i mean i main a pally tank and just breaking into the healing loadout and i find that its crazy expensive to have both loadouts ready for end game BUT doable my only big issue on my paladin tank is the divine touch doesn’t actually give very much threat at all and doesn’t hold it and id love for it to actually function considering i have healer loadout im working on i could see me using a hybrid type of build into the tank and also the threat on pally could use some work but im finding that for pally threat to be highly effective you got to stack that power and int has a confusing effect on threat because we deal radiant dmg (magical) but seems it screws up the threat multiplier but im on console so unable to really test the parsers etc anyways just my 2 cents and no we should not go on strike thats lame just learn to play better i dont die to trash mobs and i do enough damage to hit things i mean i out dps some dpsers in rdq sometimes so i think play around with your builds and stats theres a ton of options for tanks and i think its the most versatile class honestly. Barbs and fighters are extremely lucky tanks because they typically can use some of their dps gear to pump up their aggro, plus they have some higher magnitude dmg at wills/encounters compared to pally, our loadout is a healer so trying to use healer gear on a pally tank loadout where divine touch doesn’t function just won’t work have to build separately with separate gear hence the expensive build of them :) anyways i’ll stop my rant and get on with it. Wait 1 more thing honestly with dpses that run ahead and drop then tell the tank to get gud, yall crazy lol but love yah anyways lol
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