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Wizard VERY LOW DPS in Dungeon/Advanced Dungeon/Epic Trial, scaled and nerfed badly in the Game

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  • muschellka#7783 muschellka Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    @strathkin

    Someone who has no idea how to play a class should not comment authoritatively on the rework the class requires. This is what I personally wanted to say.

    You don't know what powers to use on single, you have bad passives and probably feats as well, and you're trying to prove the superiority of a lousy thamaturg over an arcanist.

    So @account showed your indolence. And rightly so, in my opinion.
    strathkin said:


    Still @account#4846 don't realize scaling negatively effects you as you increase Item Level:
    ╘ My power is likely far higher yet also represents a smaller boost likely!

    Complete nonsense. You just have to know what you are doing. My Tina has 75k and during the fight power 90%.

    Your tests, forgive me, but they are completely worthless, proving absolutely nothing except that you really know very little about wizard.

    The author of the thread is crying that wizard is lame, while he himself does not try to change anything in his approach. I saw him yesterday. His choices are just as bad as before, and he continues to play this sucky thamaturg. Well, it's just not possible to help some people.
    To waste so much time and go to so much trouble to buy worthless items at the end? Really?



    The whole evil is that you pat yourselves on the back and tell yourselves how good you are, and then me, playing healer, meet you at randoms and such a lomm is made by your thamaturges 60k+ for 55 min.
  • badnickname#3262 badnickname Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited July 2
    Such tests won't prove much but ok, I did it just for you. My wizard is 70k. I haven't use 10% potions for dragons, they are too precious for me. I used Wild Storm Elixir, Squash Soup and Flask of Potency rank 3, Dragon slaying glyph and Rage of Flames in both cases. Could be better, but here is:


    Thaumaturge ↑



    Arcanist ↑

    I'm using my own builds. I made Thaumaturge build just for this test purpose.

    So, what I won?

    Edit:
    strathkin said:


    Run it yourself, using Thauma build with all the same Class of Chilling Presence & Orb of Imposition; then do Arcane with it's powers and Chilling Presence & Storm Spell. You'd see Thauma in both cases beats Arcane.

    Why should I run on build with wrong powers and feats? What it would prove?
  • muschellka#7783 muschellka Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    strathkin said:

    strathkin said:



    Everyone who completes the same Young Dragon, does very similar damage. *sigh* I'm not trying to argue.

    The full screen (which shows your dmg) shows us whether you actually completed the dragon in the time you are trying to imply. It is an evidence. This, which you posted, is another mystification. I can show you an analogous screen shot, where the time will be 2 min. Would you believe it?
    Alright, I'll do 2 more runs I don't lie and I'm honest. Yet both Green are lying on the floor in Single Target, they weren't in Hybrid (2 AoE / 2 Single Target) likely as I was spending far more time, to ensure the screenshots were captured. I will always use Potions, and I'm using 10% ones too!

    So I'll post another image here, once I show both results using same Hybrid Build standard's (2 AoE / 2 Single Target) I stated.
    And where are the screenshots, because I see you edited your post again?

  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 6

    strathkin said:

    strathkin said:



    Everyone who completes the same Young Dragon, does very similar damage. *sigh* I'm not trying to argue.

    The full screen (which shows your dmg) shows us whether you actually completed the dragon in the time you are trying to imply. It is an evidence. This, which you posted, is another mystification. I can show you an analogous screen shot, where the time will be 2 min. Would you believe it?
    I decided not to post them, why, because I noticed both green dragon on Single Target are lying on the floor. First with his tail down, and the later has his tail slightly raised. I didn't have them shown in my first test, yet I'm in the lair and if his health is not shown then he's also dead!

    And thank you for running both. I'd validate Single Target again, I'd assume your running Swath of Destruction & Critical Conflagration. Yet with my AoE / Hybrid (2 AoE / 2 Single Target) test I used Chilling Presence & Orb of Imposition on mine.

    Alright, I'll do 2 more runs I don't lie and I'm honest. Yet both Green are lying on the floor in Single Target, they weren't in Hybrid (2 AoE / 2 Single Target) likely as I was spending far more time, to ensure the screenshots were captured. I will always use Potions, and I'm using 10% ones too!

    So I'll post another image here, once I show both results using same Hybrid Build standard's (2 AoE / 2 Single Target) I stated.
    And where are the screenshots, because I see you edited your post again?

    As I later said, I didn't need them because both green were shown on the floor in Single Target; despite I didn't post damage... Also for the original's I did in Hybrid Build (2 AoE / 2 Single Target) I did post both damage, and since I was inside lair and no health bar shown it backs me up that's when I was 52k; the later ones when 57k also show Dragons Dead in them, one with tail down, the other slightly up in the air.



    Though I will redo my test for Single Target, as I want to retry different things.

    @strathkin

    Someone who has no idea how to play a class should not comment authoritatively on the rework the class requires. This is what I personally wanted to say.

    You don't know what powers to use on single, you have bad passives and probably feats as well, and you're trying to prove the superiority of a lousy thamaturg over an arcanist.

    Well I ran Hybrid Build as I've said originally as that's most often what people do in Campaign Area's or Dungeons to clear Mobs, as AoE can often boost damage a lot. That was also my first test, I was going to switch to a more Single Target focused Build later. I just hadn't gotten to it yet, as we've had two back to back Events first Anniversary, then the Festival of Llira. :o

    My feat's as I original said, were also based on the Guide from M22 for Arcane & Thaumaturge. No one has posted M23 Feat's yet, most are still likely testing, or perfecting it, before they post their ideal revisions. I have played Wizard a lot, and yes also Arcane.

    Being friendly, and less criticizing goes a long way... ...instead just ask a friendly question, and if there is room for improvement then suggest it. No need for insults, still I have a thick skin so doesn't bother me. I would have likely soon tried other feat's very soon, after you said you Play only Arcanist and find better, also your boyfriend said something similar. Yet even after those revisions, Thaumaturge melts things faster than Arcane--my only guess is because Thaumaturge has 10% higher Critical Severity do to it's feats. Thaumaturge also has more Projectiles and 'benefits a bit more' from the Ray of Enfeeblement. While Arcanists can use Class power yet it only boost it 10% for 5s out of every 20, so that's only 2.5% boost--it's why most don't use that Arcane Class Power.

    Still both have very similar buffs and Arcane only get +2.5 Magnitude more. But that's also still based on at least a 49 second faster time with Thaumaturge, which I could likely reduce further. This is even after the feat changes your boyfriend suggested. Still I'm not arguing with you just stating facts.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • muschellka#7783 muschellka Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    strathkin said:



    Yet both Green are shown lying on the floor in Single Target, they weren't in Hybrid (2 AoE / 2 Single Target) likely as I was spending far more time, to ensure the screenshots were captured! I was new to them back then, yet there is no Health bar shown and it is inside their lair.


    Otherwise you'd see this at the Top of the Screen, if Cryptic validated the same Powers & Class abilities; they'd see I'm telling the truth! You've run one, yet haven't run both Arcane & Thauma on the same Wizard with same Gear/Enchantments/Mount Powers/Companions as I have done. If you had you'd see clearly Thauma does finish faster!

    Really?



  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 3

    Such tests won't prove much but ok, I did it just for you. My wizard is 70k. I haven't use 10% potions for dragons, they are too precious for me. I used Wild Storm Elixir, Squash Soup and Flask of Potency rank 3, Dragon slaying glyph and Rage of Flames in both cases. Could be better, but here is:


    Thaumaturge ↑




    Arcanist ↑

    I'm using my own builds. I made Thaumaturge build just for this test purpose.

    So, what I won?

    Edit:
    strathkin said:


    Run it yourself, using Thauma build with all the same Class of Chilling Presence & Orb of Imposition; then do Arcane with it's powers and Chilling Presence & Storm Spell. You'd see Thauma in both cases beats Arcane.

    Why should I run on build with wrong powers and feats? What it would prove?
    I'll try switching Fireball though with Repel, and try that in Mastery, as well as Ray of Enfeeblement! I'll try both in my test on Thauma, yet Fireball in Mastery was less effective.

    ――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――
    @badnickname#3262
    My change Arcanist (below) resulted in -52 off it's time, which was huge! Yet I need to understand how I might reduce it more. "muschellka#7783" doesn't seem interested in helping.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User

    strathkin said:



    Yet both Green are shown lying on the floor in Single Target, they weren't in Hybrid (2 AoE / 2 Single Target) likely as I was spending far more time, to ensure the screenshots were captured! I was new to them back then, yet there is no Health bar shown and it is inside their lair.


    Otherwise you'd see this at the Top of the Screen, if Cryptic validated the same Powers & Class abilities; they'd see I'm telling the truth! You've run one, yet haven't run both Arcane & Thauma on the same Wizard with same Gear/Enchantments/Mount Powers/Companions as I have done. If you had you'd see clearly Thauma does finish faster!

    Really?

    Your also outside of the lair there! Your on the walkway before you get inside!
  • badnickname#3262 badnickname Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    @strathkin it's because i'm using Shatter Strike. Repl has twice time bigger magnitude than firebal and this feat makes it even better.
  • muschellka#7783 muschellka Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    I am after completing 1 arena, I purposely made the screen like this so that there would be no doubt. On the other hand, if I had cut it as you did, it would look like this:


  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited August 8
    So here's 4 revised runs, worst shown first, then to best last:

    Arcane Single Target - Chilling Presence & Storm Spell
    ♦ Ray of Enfeeblement Mastery, Entangling Force, Disintegrate, Repel.


    Thauma Single Target (with even 1 AoE) beat Arcane, Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction
    ♦ Ray of Enfeeblement Mastery, Fireball (to show difference in Mastery), Icy Rays, Chill Strike.


    Then Thauma with Fireball in Mastery, Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction
    ♦ Fireball Mastery, Repel, Icy Rays, Chill Strike.


    Then Thauma with Enfeeblement in Mastery like most, same Class powers.
    ♦ Ray of Enfeeblement Mastery, Repel, Icy Rays, Chill Strike.


    Still as I said Fireball needs a slight buff. Still all times are better when Thaumaturge for me, and yes I'm skipping (teleporting) the entire way once in the dungeons while I have stamina, and running full speed which my boost almost 30%.

    So I still stand by this claim:
    Background: Revisions after more runs June 15th to July 1st, I'd recommend as starting point... ...'they claimed' Thaumaturge is hurting more, yet I disagree. I'll show why later.

    Arcane Wizard
    ♦ Steel Time stuns to last +15% longer, and be +5 Magnitude though!
    ♦ Lightning Bolt previously nerfed too harshly, should see +7 Magnitude boost, counterpart Fanning the Flame.
    ♦ Arcane Tempest could be buffed by +7 Magnitude as well, as small node to Arcanists.
    ╘ is same as Conduit of Ice for Thaumaturge!
    ♦ Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't need a Magnitude buff,
    ╘ both the debuff needs to CONFIRM it's 10s, same with it's Mastery benefit -- see Bugs*
    ♦ Disintegrate should be given (slight) buff of +5 Magnitude.

    Only Thaumaturge feat's add's more Chill stacks while having 3 more Ice (Chill) Encounters, so Arcane Feat's need a bit more work to enhance Control! Otherwise a slighly higher magnitude buff above, also the numbers be then +2.5 or +5, or +3.5 or +7, or +5 or +10 it's better to start small then slowly increase.

    Note: Someone also reported Ray of Enfeeblement only last 5 seconds, not 10 seconds for Mastery effect; I'd want them to check debuff last 10s as it should; both are likely only 5 seconds! :(

    Arcane should start with +24 Magnitude Damage or 50% that, and work up. Which is small but adds up, especially as Disintegrate has shorter cooldown! Yet both Wizard's don't compare to Rogue, Warlock, or other DPS Classes! Still these are small suggestions to test, and think Arcane powers may be buffed further especially if they don't improve Class powers slightly!

    Thauma is still leader in DPS, and suspect that will remain:
    https://www.mmorpgtips.com/neverwinter-wizard-arcanist-build/
    https://www.mmorpgtips.com/neverwinter-wizard-thaumaturge-build/

    Thaumaturge Wizard
    ♦ Fanning the Flame could also be boosted by +10 as starting point
    ╘ Fireball is recommended in Mastery, while more powerful -- it doesn't render FX -- see Bugs*
    ♦ Conduit of Ice should receive buff of +7 Magnitude as well.
    ♦ Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't need a Magnitude buff,
    ╘ both the debuff needs to CONFIRM it's 10s, same with it's Mastery benefit -- see Bugs*
    ♦ Fireball should be given (slight) buff of +5.5 Magnitude.

    Thaumaturge be overall of +22.5 Magnitude Damage and start with 50%, and also work up.
    As these be good starting points only!

    Note: Both -Young Green Dragons - shown below; using 2 Single Target, 2 AoE - Hybrid more typical.


    ╘ Thaumaturge has more control cause of Feats, and a wider Gap exists using AoE over Arcane.

    This time, I gave Thaumaturge it's two best class powers Critical Conflagration & Swath of Destruction; I also changed from the Arcane Feat guide to the one suggested (first down) next 4 feat's all (up) and now the difference isn't quite so great. Yet used Fireball (AoE) rather than Repel, when I use Repel it shaves Thaumaturge time down to 8m 1s in fact.

    This time Thauma with Repel slotted instead of Fireball with Critical Conflagration & Swath of Destruction:

    ╘ still this is all Single Target, which shows the gap is narrowed.

    Then Thauma with Enfeeblement in Mastery like most, with Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction
    ♦ Ray of Enfeeblement Mastery, Repel, Icy Rays, Chill Strike.


    ――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――
    https://twitch.tv/videos/1497519296
    Still the one BUG that sticks out is with Thaumaturge Fireball it never renders the Fireball, you only can screenshot it just as it arrives at the target if you extremely lucky, so most only see the Flames that burn the enemy afterward by the vast majority, not the Fireball itself!
    ――――――――――――――――――――

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1265340/known-wizard-bugs

    Known BUGS I'm aware of:
    So Fireball FX has been broken a LONG time, and needs rework to make it more visible for sure!


    There's 2 problematic BUGs, and now one introduced since M23 dropped here:
    https://account.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1265327/thaumaturge-missing-fx-for-fireball-it-seems
    &
    https://account.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1265342/ray-of-enfeeblement-duration-bug

    https://account.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1265378/wizard-ice-knife-not-shown-since-m23-june-14th-in-dragon-hunts
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • badnickname#3262 badnickname Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    I haven't seen your arcanist feats. There is one which gives him CA in such situation. All serious endgamers playing Arcanist. I just know by doing my own tests that Thaumaturge is far behind Arcanist.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 3

    @strathkin it's because i'm using Shatter Strike. Repl has twice time bigger magnitude than firebal and this feat makes it even better.

    Alright, thanks. Though I'm also using that and always have, still my Thauma is faster than Arcane as shown above. In fact by more than a one minute and 51 seconds. You must be doing or using different feats, or doing something else different not shared yet. So I'm not quite sure what it is...
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • badnickname#3262 badnickname Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    I used almost similar setup as thaumaturge, one different feat, other class feature and encounters. If you want, we can compare it as I wrote you in the message. I was too lazy to check what is the portion of damage done by smolder in whole result.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 11
    I have tried talking to some, who suggested other Feat's to try. I wrote them down on notepad, and I admit I did improve my time shaving off about 51 seconds which is still very good.

    Note: I also tried 3 times a Green dragon, and my best time was 9m 00s, my worst was 9m 08s a bit longer. So I sure did improve my time by 51 seconds, yet still not as good as my Thaumaturge at 8m 01s. I do know the Arcane Wizard in Dragon Hunt with 3 of us did 37m, compared to my about 21m for my Thaumaturge. While her item level was 3k higher than mine, yet I also noted a 52k to 57k difference resulted in 57% improvement in times when I ran them. Still I can only report what I see mostly on mine, after making their changes.

    Note: Update from July 2nd, using Arcane Empowerment 100% for Daily did later reduce this to 8m 50s. Previously my best time of 9m 00s was mixed between Ice Knife & Arcane Empowerment. It's still however 49s behind my Thaumaturge Loadout.



    These are what I was previously using however earlier:
    https://www.mmorpgtips.com/neverwinter-wizard-arcanist-build/
    https://www.mmorpgtips.com/neverwinter-wizard-thaumaturge-build/

    Someone later clarified when you change them to single target, yet I changed them identically as they said and yes it and sure it improve my Arcane time. Yet still I see Thaumaturge in the lead!

    For Arcane the Guide says:


    For Thauma the Guide says:


    Here's what 2 Arcane Wizard's suggested I do for Single Target, with variation from a HDPS Wizard too.


    So the feats shown by Thaumaturge, are reversed here for Arcanist single target. I was told to try First feat DOWN as Arcane already shows, yet all the others are on the TOP!

    So to me I still see Thauma on TOP of the Leader Board! But I have to wait till tomorrow to review, it's possible they are using better companions all mine are Legendary, not a single Mythic. As I've been gone for 2+ years, and those could also make noticeable difference. Still I can't compare her to my character, only mostly report what I found. Which is for me still Thauma is still superior, unless they clarify something else tomorrow.




    ―――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――
    Update 07/04: My guess is only that Thaumaturge has higher Critical Strike Feat, where Arcanist does not so using Chilling Presence & Storm Spell. Thaumaturge as I said uses Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction it's two best.

    For Arcane you could use Eye of the Storm which gives 10% severity for Arcane, yet it's only active 5 seconds out of every 20--so this only translates to 2.5% on average.

    Note: Still I find my Thaumaturge build out performs my Arcane even with the revisions above!
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • muschellka#7783 muschellka Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    You seem to never learn anything. Neither will you admit the obvious failure of this sucky thauma.
    Yesterday I went with you to compare the arcanist with the thaumaturg, because you wanted to test. I pwned you painfully and you still think that thamaturg is better. I don't know in what world you live in, but I'm unable to break through your barrier of lack of understanding.
    I created my wizard just a little over a month ago, I'm not an expert about wizard because I play other classes, but I went for a test. Here is the result (my arcanist vs your thamaturg):


  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 6
    @mushellka
    I've been mostly nice to you, I said I would wait for today to see if you could correct anything else, and I'd post another update; yet you don't seem interested to help.

    I'm not defending Thaumaturge, it's just what I see based on all the runs I've done! I said I was surprised cause it did shave a lot of time off my Arcanist! In fact -52s was a huge improvement over the last best of 9m 52s in fact. It is still however a difference of +59 seconds faster on my Thauma using the Default Build Guide Feats with best run at 8m 01s! 3k can make a big difference, comparing each of us is meaningless, were trying to test Arcane verse Thaumaturge, so we need to setup both wizards in similar gear, enchantments, etc... ...otherwise the test is meaningless!

    The author of the thread is crying that wizard is lame, while he himself does not try to change anything in his approach. I saw him yesterday. His choices are just as bad as before, and he continues to play this sucky thamaturg. Well, it's just not possible to help some people.
    To waste so much time and go to so much trouble to buy worthless items at the end? Really?

    Note: Your putting words in my mouth I never used, I said they "needed improvement", both classes do.
    ╘ Generally well regarded fact in community, as Warlock & Rogue often do far better + others.
    ╘ yes even the Devs agree with this. I just believe Arcane needs more than Thauma.

    Yet if you looked at my suggested improvement for Magnitude, Arcane is only +2.5 Magnitude higher than Thaumatuge. Originally there was a +4 advantage to Arcane, this also accounts for the shorter cooldown on Disintegrate and is why it's now +2.5 Magnitude difference. Yet that's also based on my Thauma orginally beating Arcane by close to 2m, now that's 59 seconds. That's not fair? I think I'm extremely fair, and Arcane should see probably twice that closer to +5 Magnitude over Thaumaturge. I'll continue to revise as I find or discover new things!

    ――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――
    I even did 3 runs to ensure I was doing everything well, the best run was with Arcane Empowerment which shaved 5s off the 9m 5s time, to 9m 0s. I could try one more time, rather than use it 50% with Ice Knife maybe try Arcane Empowerment 100% like I often do. I tried all combination to confirm what was best. So then I ran just Arcane Empowerment in Daily and it got 8m 50s the best time for Arcane, verse Thaumaturge's best at 8m 1s. So now there's a (49s) advantage I see with Thaumaturge using Guide's defeat feats.

    I might also see a slight reduction in Thaumaturge though, changing 2 feat's as well as I did. Yet first want to ensure Arcane times are as best as possible before I do that. Those revisions to Thaumaturge are shown below.
    ―――――――――――――

    I wouldn't change? I changed right after he told me what to try. You just don't like the result, even though it was a very good reduction in time of 59s. That shows considerable improvement given I'm 3k lower than you.

    Yet the first thing you do is criticize, all I was asking was to tell me where else I might need to change or update? I also stated why I used AoE / Single Target Hybrid originally, cause in most content that often results in more damage. Also for things to be equal, to be a true test, especially since were testing Arcaen verse Thaumaturge, not are ability to play each class--so they should be similar item level. That's easy to do taking out 1-2 enchantments.

    ————♫♪♫♪♪———————————— more ♥ & warmth, do you good——————————————
    Important to Note: When I first started at 52k I was 14m 18s my best time.
    ╘ getting to 57k (+5k) reduced to 8m 11s, which is quite large or 6m 7s faster for 5k difference!
    ╘ that's a 57% improvement in speed / damage with just 5k difference.
    ———————————

    So while you are 3k higher, that may make up possibly up a sizeable difference. I had hoped today you would return to help.

    I saw you were slightly over 60.25k at least when we got inside, I never looked again. We also did 2 runs together and my best run was 21.25 million damage on my Thaumaturge.

    So please educate me what I'm doing wrong? Just I have not found it... :(
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 11
    Okay so as I said, above it's very possible the 3k difference makes a sizeable difference. So in the math, based on times running at 52k verse 57k that represents a +57.19% improvement in time on 5k. So only if we were almost exactly the same item level would the test be fair. Why many chasing River District Mirage Weapons, yet I gave them up long ago and not chasing them either.

    So now here I ran again on Arcanist, using exclusively Arcane Empowerment as Daily, I tried it last night.
    ╘ got even better time (which) reduced it by 10s.
    ╘ I could boost my Action Point Gains slightly with different Collar.



    Now perhaps I should run Thauma with the revised Feat's and see if I can further reduce the 8m 1s I previously got making other changes I might reduce it to almost 7m 50s or less. Still doing so would only cancel out the addition -10s I improved Arcane by using always Arcane Empowerment.

    ―――――
    Update:

    I also did hear from 'your boyfriend' he was friendly in the message later today, he said the Arcane Feat's were Okay. Yet I copied them out of chat, so I'm willing to revise further, if it will further improve. I also don't know if he's using the same or variations on the Thaumaturge Feat's, so can't say if they are lower or higher performing than the Guide suggests; it's just fair to state that.

    Note: @badnickname#3262 No one said I couldn't share the feat's you suggested, so hope you don't mind that I did.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • badnickname#3262 badnickname Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    Builds in this game are so simplified since m16. There is no any secret in feat setup, you can find this in any better guide because people came to the same conclusion. But here you have my setup which I believe will be the best in this situation:



    And believe me, I checked it and I would be playing Thaumaturge only if he could provide better damage output, but simply he just can't.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 11

    Builds in this game are so simplified since m16. There is no any secret in feat setup, you can find this in any better guide because people came to the same conclusion.

    And believe me, I checked it and I would be playing Thaumaturge only if he could provide better damage output, but simply he just can't.

    Yes your Feat's above, identical to what I tried, and in fact are still using today! Still I find the opposite as my Thaumaturge still beats my Arcane, by 49s with the most recent update which closed the gap from 59s. I'd love to reduce this to a close tie, or even show Arcane beating it by 20s, yet I just can't no matter how hard I try! My only 'guess' here is that Arcane has 10% less Critical Severity. Eye of the Storm could make this up, yet only gives 10% for 5 seconds out of every 20--so average 2.5% severity here.

    I'll tell you what I did in the 2nd dung run that boosted my Thaumaturge Damage to 21.25m as I said above. Now the changes I made to feat's after first run mostly benefit with lower Crit Change / Crit Severity; not at +70k for example. Still that likely return the gap back to 59 seconds or more slower for Arcane! Still I suggested Fireball receive a slight buff as well as shown above!



    It's why I asked Cryptic Dev's to run same Young Green / Red / Blue / White / Black.
    ╘ (Choose One) to compare similar skills, of both classes & two best Class Features & two worst.
    Done with Same Gear, Enchantments, Artifacts, Mounts, Companions, Collars, etc...

    They should be using Private Dungeons run Solo to contrast, or set baseline for Best Feats & Worst Feat's in both class of Characters for analysis. Before they then test with different classes to analyze the results as a whole, to see how each buff or help/hurt each other. These are all fair things to ask.

    ――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――
    Still on my Thaumaturge it beat Arcane by 49s, still there is only a +2.5 Magnitude advantage to Arcane in buff's to different Encounters; that's very small and reduced further from the +4 that I previously had. And yes I agree that Fireball needs a slight buff as well. My best time on Arcane after 3-4 runs was 8m 50s, and my best on Thauma using the Guide recommended Feats was 8m 1s.

    As I said my 52k best time to 57k best time showed a 57% improvement in speed when running Single Dragons. That may account for the damage difference between us, as she was 3k higher at the time I believe.
    ――――――――――――――――――――

    I also find Thaumaturge has more control, as the feat that adds stack of Chill with each encounter, so that buff's it more than Arcane. Thaumaturge also has 4 Cold/Chill Encounters verse Arcane with 1. Still these aren't questions for you, they are for Cryptic Developers. Thaumaturge also has more Projectiles to throw that benefits from Ray of Enfeeblement in Mastery!

    If more did what you & I have done, and posted their results as well using similar powers, class, feat's as we've done we might also not only learn new things, yet also ensure both Class of Wizard are given their full attention. That's all I was every asking for. As always in all tests I run the same Gear, Enchantments, Artifacts, Mounts, Companions, etc... ...in each and every one.

    I'm not taking something off in one to obscure results, I'm very fair, and also support Cryptic (most often) in many (not all) cases, because they are also very fair & intelligent to see things from various sources when validating information. As a result they also listen, as they read the forums regularly even when they (Dev's / QA / CM ) don't always respond, the vast majority of the time. o:)
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • muschellka#7783 muschellka Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited July 6


    Post edited by muschellka#7783 on
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 10
    Well a majority of Arcane Wizard's I've spoken to say Combat Advantage is more beneficial to Arcane, at least most often though that likely applies more to AoE. Still my first original test at 52k was to use Hybrid as I said, and it's because most often results in bigger gains (in dungeons) granted I realized it wouldn't here. I also gave Thauma the two worst Class powers, and it still cleaned up over Arcane.

    Yes Dragon is mostly a single target yet I wanted to see how both performed, with Hybrid (2 AoE / 2 Single Target) contrast to (All Single Target) in both cases Thaumaturge won.

    Still looking at a Cross population of Arcane I find these similar findings often:


    Or another which is very similar to mine:


    This is not a criticism of others, just showing a other examples, showing I'm very close if not identical. As I posted above...

    Still find a greater than 48s difference, with Thaumaturge Beating Arcane against Young Green Dragon.
    ╘ I know you don't care, about the 52k (best time) and 57k (best time) showing 57% improvement.
    ╘ It matters a lot given your 3k higher, possibly far more given you claim a 75k Main as well.

    Complete nonsense. You just have to know what you are doing. My Tina has 75k and during the fight power 90%.

    ,,,

    The whole evil is that you pat yourselves on the back and tell yourselves how good you are, and then me, playing healer, meet you at randoms and such a lomm is made by your thamaturges 60k+ for 55 min.

    Again your putting words in my mouth I never used! I'm not patting myself on the back either? I said nothing about evil, you did. I'm just trying to understand how your Wizard Arcane at 60k is able to out do a Thaumaturge. I'm asking questions, you mostly ignore. Also Running a comparison between us though proves nothing, as we are different items levels. We'd have to equip same Gear, Enchantments, Mounts & Companions to be fair. 5k difference represents a 57% improvement in my speed of completion at least on my tests! Also it be very easy for you to make you Arcane Wizard likely far closer to 75k, at least 65-70k depending how much is account-wide.

    I just can't reproduce the results, even when I used the same feat's, though I noticed it did represent a sizeable decrease on Arcane! It's still however 49s longer than Thaumaturge...
    mithmyrr said:

    If everyone else, I guess that means me too?
    So what's stopping them (besides your opinion) from adding an exchange?

    edit:

    I'm just wondering if you are dedicated defender of poor decisions, do you even doing this content?
    Do you farming thousands of needed components for tier 3 modifiers, or are you just bullshitting to disagree with people who find this problematic?

    I'd care about what you have to say if you hadn't originally come in swearing up a storm and not caring about anyone but yourself. Should there be an exchange (standard 400 chromatic for 100 other type, then a 100 of each other for 100 chromatic)? Yes. Should you have access to it? No. An exchange for everyone but you, as your only response is to insult others and care only for yourself.
    I'm not talking to you anymore! In other threads, a few have said similar things to you as well...

    ...I was even fair to you in that debate, saying I didn't like your 'boyfriends' original proposition #1 reduce Chromatic to Stronghold only, because then you'd like see far less donations; people run content for Campaigns, Dungeons, Skirmish & Trials. I like the exchange idea, yet we'd be lucky to see 1 of each of the other, for 1 Chromatic (5 for 1) kind of thing.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • muschellka#7783 muschellka Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    I don't know what's wrong with you. I am not putting you anything, those are MY words and my opinion of you.
    Stop quoting me anymore and twisting what I wrote, because I no longer want to enter into any polemics with you.
    With this optimistic meme that I made for this occasion, I wanted to end all conversations.
    Have fun in your unreal world, but don't involve me here anymore.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 11
    I'm not twisting anything, ... your the one with negative mindset, who cares more about criticizing others; without asking a question, to understand first. You're the one claiming I'm patting myself on the back now, or that preceding earlier reference to evil. Nope, haven't done that, just trying to understand what other differences might further shift my analysis, yet your not interested in helping me find the answer.

    I'm just trying to understand why, I can't find the same result as your boyfriend, even after using his feats.

    ――――― Update ―――――
    I spoke to another Wizard (Arcane) who says she plays her mostly for Single Target, and Thauma on AoE (mostly) - which is why I did the orginal Hybrid - 2 AoE / 2 Single Target test. I know Arcane doesn't excel in AoE, and has less control that is obvious. Yet I still am curiously finding Thauma also excels at Single Target in Same Gear, Enchantments, Artifacts, Companions, Mounts, Stable Insignia etc... ...still I'll slowly keep reanalyzing a few times a week, and continue to speak to more.

    She's the one who suggested this Variation as she does even better with this:

    Post edited by strathkin on
  • ivansoong#2073 ivansoong Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited July 10
    Suppose you wonder where Ivanus Song is a year after the initial posts., Hello guys, I hope you are doing fine. Nice to meet you. The difference in opinions is totally fine. Please discuss amicably without any vicious and personal attacks. If you are wondering what happened to this Ivanus Song, that is a year learning curve starting as a fresh MOD22 wizard with obtained 50% on how the mechanic works on Neverwinter. I am getting better and better but still have much to learn.

    Improvements:
    ----------------
    1. I have earned the title of 'Paingiver', but I am still ashamed to use it because I still feel inferior to others with lots to learn. I managed to outperform some players either they are far too low IL without gears or do not know how to utilize their classes well, even some with BOA. I think they are scared to hit the dragons or disabled for a long time, or do not know how to play with their classes, even with BOA. I suggest placing another similar ring on the Zen market as VIP (the easy way) or grinding it for free in a complex manner in VOS. I found out some players equipped with BOA are hubris/arrogant to mention the word HDPS BOA that they may ignore to invite you for VOS or Ancient Dragon hunts. I had a hard time initially getting the group for Ancient Dragon hunts without BOA. A good host usually mentions 'FULL Thank You' in the reply, LFG Chat, or Zone Chat. However, some arrogant hosts with BOA will ignore you.
    2. I won over them because I have three Journal Tales Sets, Myth Sets, or Demogorgon's Wrath Sets that can outperform them. I tried once unequipped all those and fell the charts quickly in the trial (1-4 with BOA and one none, all DPS). Although the developer said BOA is nerfed, it is still as powerful a ring with the same class and item as the Wizard; when compared, she got BOA with 44k damages compared to me with 22k damages. Even Barbarians, Rogues or Hunters do not need those extra damages proc items and are doing fine to beat me on the chart, but I still manage to keep up without falling much behind with the damage proc set items.
    I met many great Arcanists without BOA, and they offered me good advice. Thaumaturge is good as ST on a SINGLE boss, and Arcanist is good as AOE on MANY mobs, and usually, they have two load-outs (ST or AOE). I hate using Arcanist with Storm, Chill and Arcane magics simultaneously because the ice floor freeze, is hard to aim the enemies with close-range lightning bolt range.
    3.Yes, I am shining during boss fights using Thaumaturge using all strong ST spells without anyone inferior low damage AOE spell on a single target. My 90% power, 90% critical severity, 75% Combat Advantage, 74% Critical Strike with 45% Accuracy are a joke, and some other classes with 50% stats or 79% power can easily beat me on the DPS chart if they know what they are doing and using their classes well.

    In my opinion, Arcanist is greater than Thaumaturge due to the irregular and erratic changes of damages sometimes giving you severe damages compared to constant, guaranteed damages from Thaumaturge. You need to check for bugs constantly. I tried to test 80% damage proc in 12 seconds for Thaumaturge feats, which does not work for continuous attacks without a gap and reports to Cryptic. I am not sure whether the other complex mechanics extra damage bonuses from Arcanist are working or not that contributed to the low damages for Wizards.

    I will not print the screen of my items. I have completed all the journals, campaigns and quests, and dragon hunts are also almost finished. Equipped with Dragon Hunter gears, all mythic enhancements with an excellent augmented companion in addition to all offensive companion features in the slots, e.g. +7.5% extra damages, +7.5% Combat Advantages, +7.5% Power etc. except Collars and Insignias that requires effort to upgrade to all mythic.

    Still my last opinion (please respect my differences in views of yours), Wizard is although better than Bard it is still inferior to others like Rogue, Warlock, Barbarian or Hunter that DO NOT NEED all those extra proc damages gears such as Tales Journals Set, Myth Set or Demogorgon's Wrath Set. Without those Sets, I am nothing in the wizardry world.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 11
    Hi Ivan @ivansoong#2073

    I'm very nice and friendly.

    I'm often the sound of reason on the forums for years. If you bored and want to run two young Green Dragons with the following, I'd love to hear your times even via PM, don't need screenshots either. Just to see if your results are closer to mine or not. Or if you have suggestions to try, from what I'm most recently using.

    Note: If you don't get Green, abort it's single player, so no leaver penalty; and no modifiers please. :)
    ╘ no modifiers, as goal is (not) Dragon parts, but keeping all times similar.

    Arcane Single Target - Class Powers: Chilling Presence & Storm Spell
    ♦ Encounters: Ray of Enfeeblement Mastery, Entangling Force, Disintegrate, Repel.
    ♦ At-Wils: Ray of Frost, & Storm Pillar
    ♦ Daily: Arcane Empowerment, Ice Knife (Used only Arcane Empowerment)
    ╙ results in better time than a 50/50 split for Arcane.
    ♦ Feats: Spell Twisting, Assailing Force, Chaos Magic, Nightmare Wizardary, & Step Above Mastery.

    Thaumaturge Single Target - Class Powers: Critical Conflagration, Swath of Destruction
    ♦ Encounters: Ray of Enfeeblement (Mastery), Repel, Icy Rays, Chill Strike
    ♦ At-Wils: Ray of Frost, Scorching Burst
    ♦ Daily: Ice Knife & Furious Immolation (50/50) split, as Rimefire is given getting both chill & fire.
    ♦ Feats: Relative Haste, Icy Veins, Shatter Strike, Frigid Winds, Rimefire Weaving (per Guide)

    per: https://www.mmorpgtips.com/neverwinter-wizard-thaumaturge-build/

    I also used their M22 Arcane guide at 52k, yet then changed the Feat's at 57k as suggested by muschella's boyfriend. This closed the gap more from 1m 52, down to 59s, then later to 49s slower in a second run on Arcane. I thought that was significant gain, yet it's still slower on Arcane, I'd love to know how to close it more if I can. Still I just haven't been able to, and I think if Cryptic ran the (above) using same feat's they'd possibly confirm this. I don't play favorites, with one class over another, and yes despite (previous claims of 1 person) I know how to play both class very well.

    That's why if one person runs same Gear, Weapons, Artifacts, Enchantments (in same place), Mounts, Insignia, Companions & Bonus; and applies them to both Loadouts for Arcane & Thauma it's apples to apples. That's why an analysis between me & her was something I avoided, as were different items levels, also in different gear, using different enchantments, mounts, etc... ...only matters that one person run both individually to compare!

    I realize most won't, that's also fine... ...just sharing what I've found so far.

    Thank You!
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • ivansoong#2073 ivansoong Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    Hi strathkin and all,

    Here is the testimony of my improvements so far. I have long-ranged attacks and spells with tickling rimfire smolder damages DOT for bosses. I am still humbly saying I won over the second (Rogue with BOA) and third DPS (Warlock) by luck because in a not fair condition of being disabled. The Rogue usually won over me with extra +20 000 000 damages, and the Warlock sometimes can quickly overtake me with additional +2 000 000 damages in other dragon consecutive runs.

    Please be respectful of my opinions, although we have different views. I can say Wizard does suck right now compared to Ranger, Barbarian, Warlock or Rogue. The most OPed on the DPS chart is Rogue, although close-ranged combats.

    Analysis
    ---------
    I have Demogorgon's Wrath +5% extra damages + Celestial Set +7.5% extra damages of Divine Fury+10% Chilling Cloud Damages + Ring of Sight +3% Ranged Damages + Sniper Fury +4% Ranged Damages + Rimfire Smolder +5%-+10% Damages (Not sure it is working as I played Thaumaturge for a long time, it makes no differences) +10% extra damages from enchantment 'Poison Thorn' + Neverwinter Night companion +7.5 additional output damages. The second DPS Rogue with BOA uses Goristro Horns + Ribcage + Mirage Set Weapons + Wrist of Precipitation + Wasteland Wanderer can easily beat me off the charts effortlessly. The third DPS Warlock is just using Scalebreaker Armours, and Mirage Weapon sets can sometimes overtake me quickly. I have better gears with all-new Dragon Armours sets + Demogoron's Wrath set, although all of us use extra damage proc sets like Myth Set and Journals Tales set. I am still performing inferior to them and barely could match them. However, I have 90% Power + 90% Critical Severity + 78% Combat Advantage + 79 Critical Strike + 45% Accuracy, in addition to all the bonus stats mentioned in the first line of analysis. Please do not say I choose the wrong feats or skills, and I have tested on the dummy for the strongest and the shortest refresh of ST of Thaumaturge spells. I also used Critical Conflagration and increased Smolder Damages (Swath of Destruction) to benefit my critical at-will Chilling Cloud attacks that proc the smolder or tickling Rimfire Smolder damages DOT on the boss.

    In short, please do not be offended just because we have different views. In my opinion, Wizard is underperforming among all DPS classes except better a little bit ONLY than Bard and the reason I heard developer would relook the Wizard in the next MOD.




  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,629 Arc User
    With the debate between Thaum and Arcane, why insist on a specific Arcanist build since it's what the community considers to be the stronger paragon path. They should be comparing your (Strathkin's) Thaumaturge build to their Arcanist. The hypothesis is whether the Thaumaturge is comparable to Arcanist, so should be tested against all Arcanist builds, not a specific one.
  • ivansoong#2073 ivansoong Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    As per-requested by Strathkin,

    Please do not compare with my characters because I got cool items. Do not compare to others as all of you did good job surviving and completing the dragon hunts regardless of levels. Thanks.




  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,562 Arc User
    edited July 10
    arazith07 said:

    With the debate between Thaum and Arcane, why insist on a specific Arcanist build since it's what the community considers to be the stronger paragon path. They should be comparing your (Strathkin's) Thaumaturge build to their Arcanist. The hypothesis is whether the Thaumaturge is comparable to Arcanist, so should be tested against all Arcanist builds, not a specific one.

    Hello arazith, I'm not insisting on any Feat's, or even Powers that are used; your free to change them as you wish and experiment. Yet it's also not about beating my time on Thaumaturge either, as it's meaningless because we have different gear or item level. I'm using the M22 Thaumaturge Feat's as proposed, I have also improved those times by changing them further.

    This is supposed to be You (Arcane), verse you (Thaumaturge) as that's the only way to keep it apples to apples.

    ―――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――
    If your using AoE, please keep both Arcane & Thaumaurge to the same number of AoE. Most will use Single Target. So before you begin also ensure both loadouts (Arcane & Thaumaturge) using all the same Gear, Artifacts, Enchantments, Mounts/Insignia, Companions/buffs, etc... so right click each Enchantment and apply to all loadouts, same with gear, weapons. Mounts and Companions are easier, as they have one button that does all. You should also be using what you find to be the best Arcane Feat's & Thaumaturge Feat's in both cases, yet please identify what they are, so it's transparent. Also Dev's may want to test, or reproduce your results to confirm.
    ――――――――――――――

    Screenshots are nice, so others can see powers chosen, and show either the damage on Young Green, or that he's lying on floor defeated.

    Note: Queue Young Dragon (1 Person) by yourself, if you get another color, abandon as no leaver penalty.
    ╘ also don't use Modifiers for the Hunt, goal is not to earn Dragon Parts, but see how fast you finish.
    ╘ then run again on your other Class of Wizard.

    I wouldn't ask people to share their gear, artifacts, enchantments either, don't even need to share item level as it's not to discourage new Wizard's from trying this either. I've played Wizard for years around M6, and left around M19 (June 2020) but that's just info about me.

    I'm very easy-going! I'd love to see others results against Young Green Dragon (1 Person) and see what powers they used in both their Arcane & Thaumaturge Skills.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,629 Arc User
    strathkin said:

    arazith07 said:

    With the debate between Thaum and Arcane, why insist on a specific Arcanist build since it's what the community considers to be the stronger paragon path. They should be comparing your (Strathkin's) Thaumaturge build to their Arcanist. The hypothesis is whether the Thaumaturge is comparable to Arcanist, so should be tested against all Arcanist builds, not a specific one.

    Hello arazith, I'm not insisting on any Feat's, or even Powers that are used; your free to change them as you wish and experiment. Yet it's also not about beating my time on Thaumaturge either, as it's meaningless because we have different gear or item level. I'm using the M22 Thaumaturge Feat's as proposed, I have also improved those times by changing them further.

    This is supposed to be You (Arcane), verse you (Thaumaturge) as that's the only way to keep it apples to apples.

    ―――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――
    If your using AoE, please keep both Arcane & Thaumaurge to the same number of AoE. Most will use Single Target. So before you begin also ensure both loadouts (Arcane & Thaumaturge) using all the same Gear, Artifacts, Enchantments, Mounts/Insignia, Companions/buffs, etc... so right click each Enchantment and apply to all loadouts, same with gear, weapons. Mounts and Companions are easier, as they have one button that does all. You should also be using what you find to be the best Arcane Feat's & Thaumaturge Feat's in both cases, yet please identify what they are, so it's transparent. Also Dev's may want to test, or reproduce your results to confirm.
    ――――――――――――――

    Screenshots are nice, so others can see powers chosen, and show either the damage on Young Green, or that he's lying on floor defeated.

    Note: Queue Young Dragon (1 Person) by yourself, if you get another color, abandon as no leaver penalty.
    ╘ also don't use Modifiers for the Hunt, goal is not to earn Dragon Parts, but see how fast you finish.
    ╘ then run again on your other Class of Wizard.

    I wouldn't ask people to share their gear, artifacts, enchantments either, don't even need to share item level as it's not to discourage new Wizard's from trying this either. I've played Wizard for years around M6, and left around M19 (June 2020) but that's just info about me.

    I'm very easy-going! I'd love to see others results against Young Green Dragon (1 Person) and see what powers they used in both their Arcane & Thaumaturge Skills.
    I'm not participating in this, I was just trying to point out something that I've noticed that keeps happening. Or at least appear to be something that is focused on.
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