OFFICIAL: Refinement Changes

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  • fritz#8093
    fritz#8093 Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    edited December 2021

    There's no in game precedent to support that.
    For instance, does that happen with Account Wide Epic and Legendary Mounts and Companions?

    I'm not sure I disagree with the overall sentiment, but the comparison lacks nonetheless. Mounts and Companions you can only use by binding it to the account. Enchantments you can use and then sell, meaning you actually "lose" value when binding. With Mounts and Companions its either or anyway.
  • douglasopferbeck
    douglasopferbeck Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    If we are going to go this route, I would like to see more options for utilizing the enchantment exchange currency. Most of my in game wealth is tied up in weapon and armor enchantments. We should be able to use the exchange currency to buy higher then rank 2 enchantments or rank 4 combat. It would make the potential upgrade path far more streamlined for the customers who are going to have a ton of the new currency as opposed to having to buy a ton of lower enchantments and having to sell them for ad.
  • chaderickrax#3780
    chaderickrax#3780 Member Posts: 191 Arc User
    grey#8986 said:

    Feedback:
    Other: please make an Elven Battle Enchant!

    This. I'm sure the math was done regarding how many players are going to be disgruntled with these changes, but every character I run (PC and PS) has Elven Battle for armor and Vorpal for weapon. The first thing I noticed was that, just like Helm's Hold and the Tymora's enchantments -- I'm apparently not part of the target audience.


  • arbitrarity
    arbitrarity Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 95 Arc User

    The problem is the difference in values of the various current stones and the one glyph type. You would end up with leftovers of whatever exchange currency they make or leftover stones. I agree putting AD in is not good, but is likely the best way to avoid headaches(from this). Besides, the Zax will never recover anyway, unless they want it to.

    I should note I meant "in addition to the 60% AD rate exchange", not "instead of". Otherwise yes, you could easily end up with leftovers.
    Since all MoPs are multiples of 25k, and Glyphs are 50k, it's fairly easy to work out the exchange rate.
  • froger#9967
    froger#9967 Member Posts: 574 Arc User

    The problem is the difference in values of the various current stones and the one glyph type. You would end up with leftovers of whatever exchange currency they make or leftover stones. I agree putting AD in is not good, but is likely the best way to avoid headaches(from this). Besides, the Zax will never recover anyway, unless they want it to.

    I should note I meant "in addition to the 60% AD rate exchange", not "instead of". Otherwise yes, you could easily end up with leftovers.
    Since all MoPs are multiples of 25k, and Glyphs are 50k, it's fairly easy to work out the exchange rate.
    I agree with "in addition to". I would go further and put a cap on the number of each item which can be exchanged for AD (only to have something for the leftovers).
    Froger - Barbarian - Original Main - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
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  • boltan#5136
    boltan#5136 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    Ok lets start with the exchange system:

    currently 1x rank 10 enchantment= 100 item level = 1 medallion
    1x rank 1 enhancement pack = 300 item level = 30 medallion's

    I would need to trade in 30 rank 10 (3000 item level ) to get 300 item level back.

    THIS IS NOT FAIR OR RIGHT IN ANY WAY to expect a player to spend over 1 million AD just to keep 1 Character at their current item level. which they already payed for one way or another.

    That is be for we get to the lack of choice from weapon and armour enchantment's to 1 combat slot.
    In real D&D ( all editions ) this is like saying to your players you can have ether +1 sword or +1 armour but not both.
  • regenerde
    regenerde Member Posts: 2,993 Arc User
    edited December 2021

    Ok lets start with the exchange system:

    currently 1x rank 10 enchantment= 100 item level = 1 medallion
    1x rank 1 enhancement pack = 300 item level = 30 medallion's

    I would need to trade in 30 rank 10 (3000 item level ) to get 300 item level back.

    THIS IS NOT FAIR OR RIGHT IN ANY WAY to expect a player to spend over 1 million AD just to keep 1 Character at their current item level. which they already payed for one way or another.

    That is be for we get to the lack of choice from weapon and armour enchantment's to 1 combat slot.
    In real D&D ( all editions ) this is like saying to your players you can have ether +1 sword or +1 armour but not both.

    Well, since they're on a sneaky path of turning enchantments and runestones account bound anyway, i can't see a good reason why they're still excluding the old lower ranking (Rank 6 - 9) enchantments and runestones from the exchange...

    Suggestion:
    Enchant/Runestone Rank / Exchange Currency
    15 20
    14 12
    13 8
    12 5
    11 3
    10 3
    9 2
    8 1
    7 1
    6 1

    Weapon + Armor Enchants
    14 120
    13 80
    12 60
    11 35
    10 25
    9 20
    8 15
    7 10

    ... again, players have spend real money on some of those low ranking enchantments/runestones as mentioned before, therefore there should be either given ZEN refunds or something else in return. And no, useless Refinement Points are NOT a valid option here.
    Post edited by regenerde on
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
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    Because it sends a message!
  • darthpotater
    darthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,162 Arc User
    edited December 2021

    grey#8986 said:

    Feedback:
    Other: please make an Elven Battle Enchant!

    This. I'm sure the math was done regarding how many players are going to be disgruntled with these changes, but every character I run (PC and PS) has Elven Battle for armor and Vorpal for weapon. The first thing I noticed was that, just like Helm's Hold and the Tymora's enchantments -- I'm apparently not part of the target audience.


    Or the target audience is the most used enchants :)

    +1 to add more enchants we need options
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  • admiralwarlord#3792
    admiralwarlord#3792 Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    I was talking to a friend about how I would miss the Elven Battle, but then I realized that my main character's lightning will also disappear :s . Currently all weapon enchant options and armors are bad.

    And the worst thing is knowing that I will have to choose one of them. :/
  • mordekai#7296
    mordekai#7296 Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    edited December 2021

    There's no in game precedent to support that.
    For instance, does that happen with Account Wide Epic and Legendary Mounts and Companions?

    I'm not sure I disagree with the overall sentiment, but the comparison lacks nonetheless. Mounts and Companions you can only use by binding it to the account. Enchantments you can use and then sell, meaning you actually "lose" value when binding. With Mounts and Companions its either or anyway.
    You do know that you can generally sell account wide mounts and companions before binding them, right?
    You have the option.
    If they were to apply a binding system to ALL enchants, not just bloody Mythics you would have three options.
    Sell.
    Use as is on one character, with the potential to remove and sell later, (an option you don't get with mounts and companions)
    or
    Bind and use across the board.
    I don't see how that's a worse situation. (ETA...) And certainly not one that would require special dispensation by allowing account wide advancement on enchantments.
  • shaidarharan#4754
    shaidarharan#4754 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    All this enchantment binding/unbinding/remove, switch, replace could be simply made easy a reality. You put your stone in a store HUD, you'd upgrade in that store. You could have multiple of the same stone or any amount of singles. You would upgrade them IN the store. You would pull them out via claims agent as a char bound stone, one time for each enchant you own in that store per char. When you want to sell the enchantment, pull it out of the store, it disappears from the store and all chars with that enchantment loose that enchantment. It would go into your inventory unbound and could be sold. Simple fix for simple problem.
  • tamtoucan
    tamtoucan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Apologies if these have been reported, it's hard to keep up with the threads

    Swapping loadouts with multiple of the same enchants in the same slots is tricky to get right. For example.
    1. Equip 4 Garnet enchantments in Offense slots, using the drop down picker on Loadout1,
    2. Switch to loadout2
    3. Equip 4 Garnet enchantments in Offense slots, using the drop down picker.
    4. Switch back to loadout1
    5. Some of the enchantments will likely no longer be equipped.
    6. Re-equip, switch and switch back to loadout2.
    7. Again, some might not be equipped
    Even once you get it so that all 4 are working in both loadouts, sometimes unequipping one will break it again. I assume it's all to do with having four items A,B,C,D but they are equipped in different slots in different loadouts e.g. Loadout1 has A,B,C,D and Loadout2 has D,C,B,A and until the 2 match you get problems.

    [EDIT] It's actually worse than I thought. I managed to get it that I had 3 in my loadout, but none to equip. I don't know if it somehow thought I had 2 enchantment on the one slot or what. But if I had delete'd the other loadout (which still had 4) then I assume I would have lost that enchantment completely.

    Player's Ratings all change when entering Sage Shop
    This maybe a sales tactic of Bradda, but when you enter the shop your ratings decrease which makes it easy to look at your stats and then buy the wrong enchantments. It also makes it a pain since once you buy and equip an enchant you have to go outside to see the proper effect, and then re-enter if you need more.

    Stats don't always update correctly
    Sorry, don't know how to reproduce this one, but I had it a few times that my Power % looked wrong, but when I unequipped and re-equipped the Garnet enchantment it would be recalculate everything and it would now be correct. So there is definetely something wrong in the process of going through all gear, enchantments, mounts, comps etc to calculate the final percentages on the char sheet.
  • lordmelchett#1830
    lordmelchett#1830 Member Posts: 32 Arc User
    tamtoucan said:

    Apologies if these have been reported, it's hard to keep up with the threads



    [EDIT] It's actually worse than I thought. I managed to get it that I had 3 in my loadout, but none to equip. I don't know if it somehow thought I had 2 enchantment on the one slot or what. But if I had delete'd the other loadout (which still had 4) then I assume I would have lost that enchantment completely.

    This one is really important.
    I'm pretty sure that happened to me as well - I was switching between loadouts and 2 of my enchants went completely missing.
    This should be checked by the devs.
  • pitshade
    pitshade Member Posts: 5,423 Arc User
    Stats change in the Sage Shop because your pet is unsummoned while you are inside.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • powerpuff#6508
    powerpuff#6508 Member Posts: 164 Arc User
    tamtoucan said:

    Apologies if these have been reported, it's hard to keep up with the threads

    Swapping loadouts ...

    And let's not ignore the past (and current) problems with loadout swapping.
  • powerpuff#6508
    powerpuff#6508 Member Posts: 164 Arc User

    Be careful on too much back and forth arguing, it adds a lot of posts to an already large thread. If there is a specific aspect a few people want to dig deep into then a new thread for that might be a good approach.

    And yes this thread is still being read and the other one is simply to make feedback information easier to find.

    You, the developers, have a list of all the issues discussed, your opinions regarding each one, and your planned resolution (if any). We know you do this - that is a common requirement for system changes generally. So why not post that (as a closed thread) and then just keep updating it as new information flows around us all? Yes, there is a lot of noise to filter but that comes with your chosen testing process using the public as guinea pigs.
  • tamtoucan
    tamtoucan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 64 Arc User

    tamtoucan said:

    Apologies if these have been reported, it's hard to keep up with the threads

    Swapping loadouts ...

    And let's not ignore the past (and current) problems with loadout swapping.
    They do have a fix for many of those problems (hopefully all?). So the problems caused by having the same companion in different slots in different loadouts etc. should no longer cause the issue.

  • tamtoucan
    tamtoucan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 64 Arc User

    ....allowexchanging a new rank 5 to an account wide reclaim. The first setup is limiting 1 exchange per enchant, and each character can only own 1 reclaim of each enchant...

    I am surprized people haven't been more thankful of this change. To me this seems a HUGE improvement. I am lazy and would have bought 3 companion enchants for my 3 mains. Now I can buy 1, upgrade it to R5 (300k + 1 coal) and get a companion enchant for all my toons. (Unless I am misunderstanding the change).
  • stark760
    stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    tamtoucan said:

    ....allowexchanging a new rank 5 to an account wide reclaim. The first setup is limiting 1 exchange per enchant, and each character can only own 1 reclaim of each enchant...

    I am surprized people haven't been more thankful of this change. To me this seems a HUGE improvement. I am lazy and would have bought 3 companion enchants for my 3 mains. Now I can buy 1, upgrade it to R5 (300k + 1 coal) and get a companion enchant for all my toons. (Unless I am misunderstanding the change).
    That's correct. That one isn't that bad, it can be gotten in the rank 4 box, 1 upgrade. Same with the weapon. The regular enchants and bonus(10 total), cant be gotten past rank 2, so 3 upgrades on each type to get account wide. I would rather have to upgrade the weaon more than once, and the regular enchats start at rank 4 like the runsetone, or maybe rank 3. Even if upgrade 6-7 types of them, to have 1 of each for off/def, and 1-2 for bonus, that's 18-21 coal wards. I think that's the main concern, and the disregard for the coal wards already used.
  • tgwolf
    tgwolf Member Posts: 497 Arc User
    rubytrue said:

    @noworries#8859
    Feedback: You mentioned in the other thread:
    *Variety of Combat enchants. 6 is the planned number to start with, but we will almost certainly add more over time.

    Will we be able to use the exchange vendor for future combat enchants? Some of us have all/most of the weapon and armor enchants currently. It would be nice to be able to trade in those enchants for future analogs as they become available.

    It will likely work exactly as the starting ones do or as acquisition of new enchants do currently.

    There is no 1-1 exchange for the starting 6, you pay the cost for the pack, you choose the one you want. Done and done.

    Either they'll add the new ones to that pack or they'll be purchasable from the Zen store/obtainable from a Lockbox or something. Likely a combination.
  • tgwolf
    tgwolf Member Posts: 497 Arc User

    If we are going to go this route, I would like to see more options for utilizing the enchantment exchange currency. Most of my in game wealth is tied up in weapon and armor enchantments. We should be able to use the exchange currency to buy higher then rank 2 enchantments or rank 4 combat. It would make the potential upgrade path far more streamlined for the customers who are going to have a ton of the new currency as opposed to having to buy a ton of lower enchantments and having to sell them for ad.

    No because that favors the unbalanced "Top 1%" who can avoid effort by throwing around their unethical amounts of wealth.

    Everyone gets the same, achievable level as a starting point and has to expend effort and resources from there.

    Resources the AD Whales will have to expend AD for and by keeping the starting bar the same, material resource hoarders like you can't gain an inherit advantage on anyone else.

    Appreciate the positive that you'll have ample resources to exchange for the Rank 2/Rank 4 packs that you'll need and won't have to struggle at all to obtain them.

    The majority of the community already despise the wealth hoarders. Don't make it any worse by trying to buy your way past the effort investment.
  • stark760
    stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    tgwolf said:

    If we are going to go this route, I would like to see more options for utilizing the enchantment exchange currency. Most of my in game wealth is tied up in weapon and armor enchantments. We should be able to use the exchange currency to buy higher then rank 2 enchantments or rank 4 combat. It would make the potential upgrade path far more streamlined for the customers who are going to have a ton of the new currency as opposed to having to buy a ton of lower enchantments and having to sell them for ad.

    No because that favors the unbalanced "Top 1%" who can avoid effort by throwing around their unethical amounts of wealth.

    Everyone gets the same, achievable level as a starting point and has to expend effort and resources from there.

    Resources the AD Whales will have to expend AD for and by keeping the starting bar the same, material resource hoarders like you can't gain an inherit advantage on anyone else.

    Appreciate the positive that you'll have ample resources to exchange for the Rank 2/Rank 4 packs that you'll need and won't have to struggle at all to obtain them.

    The majority of the community already despise the wealth hoarders. Don't make it any worse by trying to buy your way past the effort investment.
    So you're a wealth hoarder if you have more than 1 weapon enchant/armor enchant, or more than just 1 dps setup on enchants? OK. The question i have is what to do with more rank 2/4 packs than you need, after trade in? Sell them and lose more? You can't just say just give me the AD value of the medallions. But that's ok too? Spending to upgrade is one thing, and another issue, after people spent coal wards to upgrade and then have to eat a loss. Not even being able to get a currency besides another rank 2 box, or rank 4 box, makes it even worse.
  • wilbur626
    wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,000 Arc User
    Feedback :

    The Fortified Nature armor enchantment does not provide defense stacks. Awareness and deflect are WAI.

    No stacks :



    2 stacks :




    Elite Whaleboy
  • tgwolf
    tgwolf Member Posts: 497 Arc User
    As for how the function of the system to provide Account Reclaimable enchants for alts etc.

    The way it currently works on Preview is the way it SHOULD be.

    - Upgrade an enchant to Rank 5
    - Trade that enchant for an Account reclaimable version.
    - This version when claimed is bound to your Character, cannot be unbound and has no Gold or RP value but can be reclaimed in any quantity you wish, as many times as you wish on any character on your account.

    I think this already already applies to Combat Enchants as well or should be made to in the same way. As should all the Illusions you unlock. The illusions in particular are simply visuals and have no real value otherwise; we're just looking to add to the reduction of tedium in transferring them around so a conversion for them would be unnecessary imo and should just be standard.

    This means all you technically need to do is acquire/upgrade one of each enchant and illusion, exchange them to be reclaimable and you'll be able to equip all your characters as you see fit with no tedious trading of enchants every time.

    This is for you Dev. team:

    You are well aware of the level of animosity you create when releasing these changes but we also know you want to make the whole process smoother and easier to manage for players of all stages and so further adjustments on your end aren't as complex to execute. So we know that in handling it as mentioned above, it will make it easier for players to engage in content and actually enjoy the game rather than spend all their time trying to get everything to a point where they are able to take on content, get burned out from it immediately and then quit; harboring disdain toward you as a result.
  • stark760
    stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    tgwolf said:

    As for how the function of the system to provide Account Reclaimable enchants for alts etc.

    The way it currently works on Preview is the way it SHOULD be.

    - Upgrade an enchant to Rank 5
    - Trade that enchant for an Account reclaimable version.
    - This version when claimed is bound to your Character, cannot be unbound and has no Gold or RP value but can be reclaimed in any quantity you wish, as many times as you wish on any character on your account.

    I think this already already applies to Combat Enchants as well or should be made to in the same way. As should all the Illusions you unlock. The illusions in particular are simply visuals and have no real value otherwise; we're just looking to add to the reduction of tedium in transferring them around so a conversion for them would be unnecessary imo and should just be standard.

    This means all you technically need to do is acquire/upgrade one of each enchant and illusion, exchange them to be reclaimable and you'll be able to equip all your characters as you see fit with no tedious trading of enchants every time.

    This is for you Dev. team:

    You are well aware of the level of animosity you create when releasing these changes but we also know you want to make the whole process smoother and easier to manage for players of all stages and so further adjustments on your end aren't as complex to execute. So we know that in handling it as mentioned above, it will make it easier for players to engage in content and actually enjoy the game rather than spend all their time trying to get everything to a point where they are able to take on content, get burned out from it immediately and then quit; harboring disdain toward you as a result.

    So it's OK to make it so people can't get AD instead of medallions for enchants if they already have enough...but you want to keep it so you can claim more than the 1 on each toon. Of course.
  • sergey235711
    sergey235711 Member Posts: 138 Arc User


    The reason players can exchange for rank 2 of the stat enchants and rank 4 of the combat and companion enchants if those match the stats/level/power of the old ones. The damage boost on a rank 4 combat enchant is the same as a rank 14 weapon enchant now. The companion enchant at rank 4 is the damage increase of having all rank 15 indomitables on live now. The exchange is to make sure players can exchange to keep themselves where they already are (or get caught up if behind that now).


    The exchange rate for new enchantments destroys an absolutely massive amount of value. The IL remains the same, but the cost to produce doesn't match the value being put in, based on current sources. Saying "exchange for equal stats/level/power" feels like very weak equivocation. Start from the costs to produce new enchantments, compared with the costs of existing ones.
    • Rank 1 enchantments sell at Bradda for 100k each. So, I can trade 1.5 Rank 15 enchantments (or 1.2m AD) for 30 tokens, to get a Rank 1 enchantment, that costs 100k?
    • You don't directly sell rank 2 enchantments, but they can be produced with a Coalescent Mote, 3 Potencies, and 100k RP, plus the rank 1 and 10 gold. That's maybe 1.2m (~900k + 150k + 100k), perhaps more once the price of Coalescents shoots up due to the extra demand and lack of zen in the economy. That's still massively less than the 2.4m of present value that 60 tokens represents.

    3 tokens for a rank 1, 30 tokens for a rank 2, seem much more reasonable, based on the existence of Bradda's shop, unless you plan to increase the price there to 1m+ per rank 1 enchantment, which... well, you could, but shouldn't. Personally, I'd suggest something like 3-30-75-120 for ranks 1-4. This means substantial IL inflation, but doesn't outright delete half the value of all existing enchantments in the game.
    Any updates? At the moment it is the one of the major problems in the upcoming update, could you fix it as fast as you can? It makes people to worry. If this won't be fixed before release, players will just sell their enchantments because they become worthless.

    Another problem is the major refine bug: all 3 coal wards are wasted after every fail which makes upgrades very expensive in new system. There are also an another small bug with the refine system: upgrade until success always ends after first fail. (It makes much harder to upgrade Doohickey)