What do you think will happen if AD to Zen is raised to 1500?

irene#2829
irene#2829 Member Posts: 99 Arc User
edited December 2021 in General Discussion (PC)
Currently, the 750/zen cap ensure one can gain 750k AD at 1000 zen ($10).
Therefore many $10 items are priced for at least 750k in AH.

Over time, the items have become more expensive due to low supply and high demand.
Paid players will not want to trade 1000 zen for 750k AD. They could buy the item from Zen store, sell and profit in AH.
As a result, the AD to Zen convert system hardly benefit free players.
They have millions of AD to sell for Zen, but a buyer can take over half a year to surface.

To solve the problem, raising the cap to be above 750k to 1500k might do the trick.
Paid players could earn more AD with the system than to use AH. There will now be many AD buyers.
It is a win-win strategy because paid players get more AD instantly and more importantly,
free players can now earn Zen, solving the pay to win reputation once and for all.

However, will this eventually cause the price of items to raise in the long run?
A once affordable 750k item (1 week of saving for free players) might cost 1.5m very soon.
The free player made a lot less zen due to higher convert ratio as well.

I'm not an economy student, wish to hear your opinion if the cap is changed to 1500 with your trade experience. <3

Comments

  • nic1985
    nic1985 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 398 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Every week-ish, we get a new/similar post about ZAX. It would be the top "5" recurring posts ever. Personally the best idea I like the most is to get rid of ZAX. Make Zen a premium currency for players who want to buy for the convenient of progression fast via real money. Make every items in Zen store available for in game ADs as well but set at a "reasonable" price. To me this make sense, two premium currencies that are independent of each other. All items bound to account, so it won't affect the market much.
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,375 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    arazith07 said:


    No, what I think needs to happen, is to bind items purchased from the Zen store, or something else encourage paying players to use the ZAX.

    No, that would make it impossible for those paying to get AD from their Zen. That would reduce Cryptics earnings, which is not acceptable. Also, most players DO need items from the Zen store, like preservation wards. Cutting off the Zen store as an indirect source of those would create problems.

    The ZAX in its current form only benefits those rich enough to keep their ZAX queue full. 8+ months wait is too long to have any practical use when you need something from the Zen store.

    I think at least one of two things is needed:
    * Remove the cap on the ZAX. The market should then balance the Zen price so you get more or less the same exchange ratio whether you sell items or directly.
    or
    * Make all items in the Zen store sellable for AD - then you could basically terminate the ZAX and have an AD-only economy where the payers feed items from Zen store into the economy. Today the F2P crowd needs actual Zen for VIP, bank slots, character slots etc.
  • regenerde
    regenerde Member Posts: 2,993 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Well, the solutions for this "problem" are already in game, all they have to do is utilize them properly...
    + Astral Lockbox, that one should return more often, and sometimes without a Wondrous Bazaar sale attached to it
    + Knox Box for AD, hopefully fixed this week, should also return regularly
    + Wondrous Bazaar should have more high valuable items, that are actually worth buying, in it
    in short, more good AD sinks.

    Anyway, i think if they either increase or remove the cap from the ZAX it will only cost them more players.

    And it won't matter how hard they try pushing players towards spending (more) money on the game, as long as their customer support isn't worth a damn...
    I had to contact customer support more then once, and the last few times never got any help from them, and i'm not alone with that problem, so why the everloving HAMSTER would i or anyone else even want to spend more money on the game?

    And let's not forget about all the bugs and issues and how they handled them... or how they destroy player investment of time and money over and over again for "balancing" reasons.
    Post edited by regenerde on
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,470 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    This dead horse has been beaten every few months. The simple and the only solution is to increase demand of AD (no, not through taxation like New World). If AD keeps to be 'worthless' (mind you that AD worth more than a year ago), it does not really matter if it is 3000:1.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • hotfrostworm
    hotfrostworm Member Posts: 446 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Yes, @plasticbat the simplest solution is what every player wants, the coveted VIP. They could place 1 day of VIP in the WB (AD market) at 10,000,000 AD it would sell. Players with millions in the game could immediately buy VIP. The VIP cannot be transferred and thus cannot be sold to other players. This would drain the AD out of the ZAX since most of the players are getting the zen to buy VIP.

    It come down to a question of, do you want to wait for your VIP, or spend more AD to get it now?

    The downside, sales of Zen would take an immediate hit, due to AD hoarding. It would have to bounce back, because of the profuse amount of AD needed for an entire month. Maybe I am off on my 10 million AD price tag, I assume there is no way to make 10 million in 1 day every day? However should the average user make 1 million AD per day, in 10 days they could afford 1 day of VIP.

    As you stated, this is beating a dead horse, as they will never implement the needed changes.
  • powerpuff#6508
    powerpuff#6508 Member Posts: 164 Arc User
    It would be really interesting to see statistics about account AD and RAD balances! Inquiring minds want to know!
  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,462 Arc User

    It would be really interesting to see statistics about account AD and RAD balances! Inquiring minds want to know!

    My bank account is none of your business.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • hotfrostworm
    hotfrostworm Member Posts: 446 Arc User

    It would be really interesting to see statistics about account AD and RAD balances! Inquiring minds want to know!

    As I said, I have no idea what the average Joe pulls down in this game after taxes. My wife tells me, that many people invested in VIP to open loot boxes and sell the contents for income. She played the AH like a stock market, buying items low, banking them, and selling later for as much as double to triple the price. I know the unrefined AD only accounts for 100,000 daily but when I asked for her input, she said another 900K per day could be made off AH and items made by professions.

    It really would require someone with database access, to calculate the average income, and base the price for the average player to afford to buy 1 day every 10 days of playing. This would free up the exchange for the casual players. Other than VIP, others have suggested wards. I believe they added some wards only as a temporary event?
  • rockster#6227
    rockster#6227 Member Posts: 821 Arc User

    It would be really interesting to see statistics about account AD and RAD balances! Inquiring minds want to know!

    I usually have around 3 or 4 million unrefined AD sitting there because I like to be able to refine my 100k every day (I see it as guaranteed income which I can plan ahead on) without necessarily having to run randoms every single day, sometimes randoms take too long to join and I run out of time, sometimes I'm just not in the mood, so having that sitting there means I get my 100K no matter what. When I do my randoms and other daily things to earn rough AD the balance creeps up higher than what I can refine. My refined AD is usually under 1 million as I keep spending it on things I need or want and only goes higher if I'm saving for something in particular which costs that much, then goes back to under 100k again.
  • arcanjo86
    arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,092 Arc User
    wont matter if they dont remove the cap for how much is available to exchange daily, removing the cap will hurt zen store sales
  • blargskull
    blargskull Member Posts: 513 Arc User
    arcanjo86 said:

    wont matter if they dont remove the cap for how much is available to exchange daily, removing the cap will hurt zen store sales

    I can't wait for them to remove the cap, my 10 zen will be worth 500 billion AD in no time at all. :trollface:

    Simple Soul-loo-shuns!
    1. Move appearance change tokens to the AD, nobody buys these for zen ... except those who complain their beard and hair don't match.
    2. Race reroll token to the AD store, because weird stuff happens in D&D where characters change mid journey. Druids do a strange thing called reincarnation to people.
    3. Add new character skins to the AD store, spell plagued, undead, and battle scared. Want to make the undead tiefling? How about a spell plagued half-orc? Get your battle scared halfling ... half off! :lol:

    All of this should be permanent and not temporary sinks, they should never be available for zen or the AH.

    Just killing time...
  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,462 Arc User
    You can get 2 free appearance changes by re-running The Cloak Ascendancy ch3.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,375 Arc User
    arcanjo86 said:

    wont matter if they dont remove the cap for how much is available to exchange daily, removing the cap will hurt zen store sales

    I beg to differ :)

    I see two effects that will actually boost Zen sales:
    * It will be easier to convert Zen to AD in ZAX, rather than going the longer way of flipping Zen items. That will make it more attractive to purchase Zen to boost your AD spending.
    * Since the rich and patient people no longer can generate a significant income by waiting out the ZAX and flipping cheap Zen store items, they will be more inclined to purchase Zen to get the items they want.

    Remember Cryptic only cares about sold Zen.. who ends up using it is irrelevant for Cryptics income. All sold Zen ends up in the Zen store anyways, it has no other way to go.

    As for those purchasing things for AD, a removed ZAX cap should not matter much. Items in the AH are already priced by their market value and not according to their purchase price.
  • tchefi#6735
    tchefi#6735 Member Posts: 359 Arc User

    arcanjo86 said:

    wont matter if they dont remove the cap for how much is available to exchange daily, removing the cap will hurt zen store sales

    * Since the rich and patient people no longer can generate a significant income by waiting out the ZAX and flipping cheap Zen store items, they will be more inclined to purchase Zen to get the items they want.
    As a wealthy and patient player, I don't agree with this point (and only this point ^^) :

    no cap on the Zax (or undercap Zax) = perma ability to speculate on the Zax price.
    The more wealthy, the more leverage on the Zax so the better ability to manipulate the prices as lever can be on the 2 directions. Quite a good place to operate for third parties gold(AD)-sellers.


    Personnally, with an unregulated Zax, I would not have to bother with the tedious flipping of items from the Zen Market (or from wonderous bazar) in the AH to get more AD to refuel more Zen, sinking 10% AD (from the buyer mostly) in the process.
    I would have a better direct and immediate tool which doesn't sink anything, usable in both ways which i would use to :
    - daily quickly play on tiny variations (+1/-1).
    - patiently play on bit above bottom/bit below roof "trending" values (if a significant discrepancy between selling and buying prices would be trending [like the no backlog situation on Champions Online]).
    - anticipate the various event (especially the -x% $ on Zen sales, or +x% zen for the same $), players peaks (new mod, summer/winter holidays) to profit from their quite predictible effects on the Zax.
    - some other tricks ^^


    Side note : i don't think a huge backlog like the one we have nowdays is a good situation.
    In my opinion, the ideal situation is when the Zax is "breathing", building up and backlogging approaching jubilee and blackfriday, then cleaning down and going undercap in between (and if it follows the patern we had before mod14, the lowest AD:Z ratio should be somewhere between january and march).
  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,470 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    In PC, in the beginning, the Zax rate was low and no where close to its cap (the very old cap), AD was desirable and "rare". One of the methods (someone posted a list of 30+ AD earning methods back then) to earn AD was to play Zax market. There is no fee involved in Zax. Even with 1 AD difference, there was a profit. Yes, people played market and moved the price in either directions for their profit.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • wintersmoke
    wintersmoke Member Posts: 1,632 Arc User

    Currently, the 750/zen cap ensure one can gain 750k AD at 1000 zen ($10).
    Therefore many $10 items are priced for at least 750k in AH.

    Over time, the items have become more expensive due to low supply and high demand.
    Paid players will not want to trade 1000 zen for 750k AD. They could buy the item from Zen store, sell and profit in AH.
    As a result, the AD to Zen convert system hardly benefit free players.
    They have millions of AD to sell for Zen, but a buyer can take over half a year to surface.

    To solve the problem, raising the cap to be above 750k to 1500k might do the trick.
    Paid players could earn more AD with the system than to use AH. There will now be many AD buyers.
    It is a win-win strategy because paid players get more AD instantly and more importantly,
    free players can now earn Zen, solving the pay to win reputation once and for all.

    However, will this eventually cause the price of items to raise in the long run?
    A once affordable 750k item (1 week of saving for free players) might cost 1.5m very soon.
    The free player made a lot less zen due to higher convert ratio as well.

    I'm not an economy student, wish to hear your opinion if the cap is changed to 1500 with your trade experience. <3 </p>

    Currently, the 750/zen cap ensure one can gain 750k AD at 1000 zen ($10).
    Therefore many $10 items are priced for at least 750k in AH.

    Over time, the items have become more expensive due to low supply and high demand.
    Paid players will not want to trade 1000 zen for 750k AD. They could buy the item from Zen store, sell and profit in AH.
    As a result, the AD to Zen convert system hardly benefit free players.
    They have millions of AD to sell for Zen, but a buyer can take over half a year to surface.

    To solve the problem, raising the cap to be above 750k to 1500k might do the trick.
    Paid players could earn more AD with the system than to use AH. There will now be many AD buyers.
    It is a win-win strategy because paid players get more AD instantly and more importantly,
    free players can now earn Zen, solving the pay to win reputation once and for all.

    However, will this eventually cause the price of items to raise in the long run?
    A once affordable 750k item (1 week of saving for free players) might cost 1.5m very soon.
    The free player made a lot less zen due to higher convert ratio as well.

    I'm not an economy student, wish to hear your opinion if the cap is changed to 1500 with your trade experience. <3 </p>

    Currently, the 750/zen cap ensure one can gain 750k AD at 1000 zen ($10).
    Therefore many $10 items are priced for at least 750k in AH.

    Over time, the items have become more expensive due to low supply and high demand.
    Paid players will not want to trade 1000 zen for 750k AD. They could buy the item from Zen store, sell and profit in AH.
    As a result, the AD to Zen convert system hardly benefit free players.
    They have millions of AD to sell for Zen, but a buyer can take over half a year to surface.

    To solve the problem, raising the cap to be above 750k to 1500k might do the trick.
    Paid players could earn more AD with the system than to use AH. There will now be many AD buyers.
    It is a win-win strategy because paid players get more AD instantly and more importantly,
    free players can now earn Zen, solving the pay to win reputation once and for all.

    However, will this eventually cause the price of items to raise in the long run?
    A once affordable 750k item (1 week of saving for free players) might cost 1.5m very soon.
    The free player made a lot less zen due to higher convert ratio as well.

    I'm not an economy student, wish to hear your opinion if the cap is changed to 1500 with your trade experience. <3 </p>

    You could ask the Russian servers what happened to them when their cap was raised to 1000:1...
  • unknowndrama
    unknowndrama Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 104 Arc User


    I'm not an economy student, wish to hear your opinion if the cap is changed to 1500 with your trade experience. <3 </p>

    Nothing will happen in 1 hour after the new cap will be the same as before like it never was 1500 ad for 1 zen will be like instead of 67 mil zen requested like is now if i remember right to like 45 mil or around that number...the only solution is to remove cap and let the market balance itself..
    No one will exchange 750:1 at least not a mmo veteran when they can buy something from zen store and sell it for double.
    And the prices will keep rising becose f2p ppl dont have or dont want to spend money on game.
  • blargskull
    blargskull Member Posts: 513 Arc User
    @unknowndrama
    Uhhh, if a "Free to Play" user pays money they are no longer "Free to Play", you really can't blame anyone for not paying out for stuff they don't want. Let's face some facts, money costs way too much. :trollface:

    I have lots of money compared to the man living out in the street, but no one ever is satisfied with their current income. People will be telling you they cannot afford to buy stuff, yet here they are on the internet, through a paid service, the power running the PC can't be free, and the machine you are using didn't come out of the neighbor's garbage or did it? Some software company tells you their game is free to play... oh what a baldfaced lie!

    Do you have free time? When a stranger asks me that very question, the answer is a quick resounding, No. All my time has value, if you want me at your Tupperware party or listening to your sales pitch for a MLM scam, you are going to be paying me. Anyone with free time is not spending it well. I spend my time playing games, talking to friends, giving my best advice to people who listen. It is your choice to buy or not to buy, the seller must be competitive not deceitful.

    So who are these free to play people you speak of?

    Just killing time...