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New meta!

For a Dota 2 player, a change of meta is common and exciting, but a new meta in Neverwinter is tricky as it takes time, costs are sometimes very expensive and most of the time not exciting. When I got into the game yesterday, many people questioned me if I was going to sell the indomitable runestones since the meta was going to be the return of the augmentation companions, and I always said no and that it was to be calm.

The new meta in my vision is all the companions who buff the party, especially the Companions of the Hall Bundle buddies. They aren't as proficient at damage as a Cold Iron Warrion, but they do have their perks on buffs and are what companions should be, a damage complement, not a big chunk of damage like it is now. Sharing buffs and focusing on your Forte is what has been implemented with all the newest companions.

We only have 5 slots for companions and their bonuses, and in my view 2 new companions are actually BIS, Minsc and Etrien, taking into account that in ST builds Batiri is mandatory, there would only be 2 slots left to place status as Combat Advantage for example . Many old players like me who played NW before Mod 16, are nostalgic about the slowness of powers or little AP gain, that's where Etrien comes in, along with necklace, boons, artifacts class feature, artifact collection (ex: Heart of Dragons for speed recharge gain) and now a companion will give it to me. In my GWF I use everything that recharges AoE Build and everything that gives AP in ST build, on my CW it focuses only on AP gain and in my GF I try to balancer so that it has both recharge speed and AP gain ever. With that we come to the Forte part, which is where really the class must maximize so that other stats are only bonuses or use it so that you can maximize something specific.

In my view this is what devs are looking for, to make the game more strategic, with multiple buffs sharing and for players to help each other instead of competing with each other. There is a proverb that goes: "many hands make light work".


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Comments

  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 485 Arc User
    Combat Advantage the most BIS of stats and explanations of choices when building a character.

    In other threads I had already commented on why Combat Advantage is a BIS item, but casual. As for the randomness, it's more effective vs Boss and the game has been reducing players' ability to equip even more stats, so there are plenty of Artifacts and Mounts that focus mainly on delivering Combat Advantage as a bonus.

    But how is the game decreasing the stat number? Simple, most of the stats are in the companion bonuses and the newest ones will simply replace the ones that before made you complete these stats more easily. I'm talking about Minsc and Etrien again, as Minsc is super BIS and Etrien is complement to companions buffs.

    And now we're going to the part of how to adapt to that. Choices must be made, and these are difficult to even calculate gains, as it is not possible to calculate exactly how much a group with companion buffs is more or less effective compared to companions with a focus on damage and players with companion bonuses that give status.

    Bonus: Considering that Minsc is a must choice and Batiri for ST is too, there are only 3 bonus slots left in which in my tests on my GWF I would put Etrien, Staldorf and Golden Cat.

    Bonus received through companion would be Tank (Tutor - +5% AC), Healer (Etrien - +2k Critical Strike and 2k Power), 3 DPS (Wulfgar, Regis and Drizz). If the Healer is using Runic Aura, it would add +2,250 Power and Defense and this must be taken into account so that there are no losses.

    CA

    Note that with Tutor (5%) + 2 companions of 7.5% each of Combat Advantage + Mini Vos HC Boot (5%) + 5% of Sunlord's Gift Elixir portion and 7.5% of Acute Senses I achieve easily 87.5% if I have the 10% Combat Advantage via ratings, which is easily acquired with reinforce equipment and badge bonuses. If I remove Acute Senses or I don't have 1 of the 2 companions that have a 7.5% bonus, I can use Darnkned Jornaul which will give me 10% AC for 15 seconds or if someone uses the Cauldron Fumes bonus for me 15% for 10 seconds.

    Power

    Considering that the combo with the 3 Newspapers is the best choice and they give 1.5% power and that the Vallenhas forge box gives +3% and that you will have 5% of the Boons, added to your Fort and the Bonus Etrien active and Mount already mentioned + some badges, you will have the Power cap easily (in my character's test, only the mini VoS HC glove is used to Assist in gaining Power to have the cap of ratings).

    Critical Severity

    Is the easiest stat to acquire in the game, having Ribcage and some wells (in my case 2 and help from Forte +Skill) already make me reach Cap easily. There is still the option of a necklace or Vorpal to help those who have this difficulty.

    Critical Strike

    Here we come to one of the most doubtful stats in the game. Some categorically claim that Goristro Horn's is the best helmet in the game, as there is still gear like the VoS helmet that deals bonus damage without any cons, and Critical Strike being a damage gain per chance increase, yes, even at 90% you will fail and so this maximum number of 90% of cap. I got into a discussion a few days ago about fellow Siege Master and saw another similar topic and also a video from some content creator and wrote something about it that I'll post here just for reflection:

    It increases the damage of At-Will by 11%, maybe there is 1 error in the tooltip. With or 90% Power he will keep adding it. He is a companion for those who already have caps for Power, Critical Severity and Combat Advantage. I'll quote my GWF as an example, I have the caps of the mentioned stats and I prefer to use Siege than 7.5% of Critical Strike (chance to proc to increase my damage based on my Critical Severity), since 45% of Total damage from a GWF is through At-Will. Another factor that may lead some to prefer the 7.5% Critical Strike is proc on the 3 Newspaper bonus and the new set of Demogorgon. In my GWF I use it in the AoE loadout and switch to Batiri in the ST loadout.

    Accuracy

    This is perhaps the most rejected status by many. As I am a GWF that uses Overpenatration, I need it. But for the most skeptical, beware, 2 of the strongest DPS classes in the game have Forte with Accuracy which are GF and HR.

    In a controlled way, the Dev's are bringing the game back to the era of buffs and debuffs and maybe something similar to how it was before mod 16.

    Well here it was just another daydream of someone bored. I would like to show images with calculations, but I'm still waiting for an update of the great Rainer (my congratulations on the birth of your daughter!) program that contains the new set of Demo that by the way comes with a lot of rating of Forte.

  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited October 18
    The only issue of this system is that a well coordinated and precisely geared groups have a significantly better performance over the badly coordinated ones - and the badly geared newbs are then even failing the basic content.

    Do not take me wrong - I think the m15 version of game was significantly more enjoyable than the m16, but if the performance varies too much, keeping the balance in check starts to be an impossible task.

    Another issue of this combat mode starts to be noticeable in the tank department. With the increase of IL the stats you do not focus on are dropping down - and atm the tank damage output at high IL is really bad, forcing you to rely only on hard taunts... which are not always at the disposal when you need them. In the high IL era of buffs and de-buffs losing agro will be more and more common.
    Post edited by rikitaki on
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 485 Arc User
    Nothing is perfect. Yes, you need to have a variety of options in both companions and equipment to adapt to this new goal. I'm just demonstrating how it's possible to get close to what the game was like before module 16.

    About Tank and aggro maintenance, these should invest in items like max item level to raise your damage base and use equipment like the new set that amplifies the aggro. How many Tanks use the Dread Warrior companion bonus?

    I don't even believe that this meta is welcomed by some of the players, as they have the game as competition. As I've already written, they are just daydreams of a nostalgic of an era that was better than the current one.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited October 21
    edit: as it seems to be impossible to figure out... a short version.
    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Concerning how to improve Tanks agro abilities:
    Aggro multipliers bad. In this combat system, what you do not focus on, becomes worse. Investing in thread multiplier your damage gets worse - and damage is the source of aggro - the thing you intended to multiply. (hard taunts are different)
    Blind increase in IL bad. In a trivial example of pushing IL50 to IL55 by improving your mount collars, you gain 10% of raw damage bonus, but lose 2,5% points in all stats, which pretty much nullify the gains. (similar goes for survivability)
    Post edited by rikitaki on
  • kevin#3443 kevin Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    AHWOOOOOOO i have no problems also there are a lot of good companions for tanks in game.have a greatday;)
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,206 Arc User
    edited October 18
    I've dusted off my fighter tank mode. I can't do the things I used to do with him on account of the asinine combat advantage the critters get. Particularly when swarmed.

    Using the new set, where the tank gets an increase in threat, I'm still losing aggro as soon as any reasonable DPS gets a hit in.

    Makes me just want to put that mode back on the shelf.
    Post edited by greywynd on
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    What is your definition of "squishy" ?

    Elite Whaleboy
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,116 Arc User
    It would be great to know the exact bonus minsc gives vs normal minions, tough minions, bosses, etc.
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  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    What is your definition of "squishy" ?

    You die a lot.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    > @rikitaki said:
    > You die a lot.

    At what point does this happen?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 485 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Let's assume that there are several ways to build the Tank function. Most of these use what I call immortal, they play all their caps for defensive status. The second would be players like me, who play to be Tank, buff and deliver some damage.

    While the former say they're losing aggro, I'm very comfortable with my 50k tank which has 50% on most offensive stats, even 60% Power and something close to that in Combat Adavantage; I also use Bronzewood for weapon enchant, Duelled Senses for Companion Enhancement Power that matches the Enforced Threat debuff and I have a nearly finished build for Tank ST with a focus on damage where I trade Avernus rings for VoS rings (The Living Silver Leaves + The Sky's Gaping Void).

    The other day I was thinking about a compilation for my OP that would also help in gaining damage, I thought about a complete debuff being it Drow race (synergy with Forte), Armor Break from Companion Enhancement Power, Dread from weapon enchant, Jagged Dancing Blade and finish with Rust Monster (I heard this debuff isn't working, old bug) as an active companion.

    You can also build a damage returner.

    But then again if you look at most tanks, they prefer the build to be immortal or be the solo tank of a trial for example. If they lose aggro for not having offensive stats, what is the fault of the game that he chose this build?
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    @wilbur626 @admiralwarlord Could you, please, both of you, actually read my posts in this thread? They are not that incomprehensible if you try to - without holding onto your assumptions.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    > @rikitaki said:
    > @wilbur626 @admiralwarlord Could you, please, both of you, actually read my posts in this thread? They are not that incomprehensible if you try to - without holding onto your assumptions.

    I’m trying to understand what you are saying.

    Why do you need 10x threat generation?

    At what point does a tank become too “squishy”?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 485 Arc User
    @rikitaki At the end of your comment you mention a problem in the system. I try to show you that the system works perfectly and that players like you are insisting on the error. I still kindly give tips on how you can fix it. Is it me or you who lost the thread?
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,206 Arc User
    Tanks should be unkillable and the only target the enemies ever attack. :p
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,887 Arc User
    While on the subject of tanks, is it me or are they designing the latest content around making the tank role simultaneously more:

    * pivotal to group success
    * knowledge of all of the mechanics (one wrong step and...)
    * demanding, in terms of stats
    * complex, in terms of builds
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  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Let me pick out of my comment the main parts... "About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro..." "Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage." "...there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell." (notice the conditional!) "The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro."
    @wilbur626 Now, you ask me when does this happen... are you serious?

    @admiralwarlord Thanks for your kind tips, but what did you want me to do? Pat your head? I said focusing purely on threat generation bonuses would not get you anywhere, because threat is based on damage and at the same you still need to maintain some survivability. Congratulation, you figured out you don't intend to focus purely on threat multipliers... do not expect me to throw you a snack...

    @armadeonx I think they really are trying to do that, because tanks are the area the mechanics is by-passed the most... which is undesirable.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,887 Arc User
    On the subject of threat, it's worth mentioning something that was brought to my attention recently: namely that a dev had previously stated "we're looking for tank DPS to run somewhere around for 70% of a similarly geared and skilled DPS in most situations".*

    Obviously this was before the combat rework, but it should have been noticed by practically everyone that the number of players running tanks or starting new ones has declined significantly. Before going further with 'tank-centric' content, Cryptic needs to ask itself some hard questions on how to address this lack.

    The purpose of my previous post was to point out that when the least desirable class becomes the maker/breaker of a run, the pressure on them increases enormously. Nobody ever wants to be that guy that causes the run to fail.

    I'm of the opinion that if Cryptic reassessed tank at-will & encounter damage to match that 70% goal, it would take the stress out of the issue of threat generation, give them more room to explore options and be more forgiving for tanks that aren't the best specced player in the team.

    Such a move would surely encourage players with shelved tanks to pick them up once again.

    * quote from: https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1246318/official-m16-fighter-feedback/p7
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  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    On the subject of threat, it's worth mentioning something that was brought to my attention recently: namely that a dev had previously stated "we're looking for tank DPS to run somewhere around for 70% of a similarly geared and skilled DPS in most situations".*

    Obviously this was before the combat rework, but it should have been noticed by practically everyone that the number of players running tanks or starting new ones has declined significantly. Before going further with 'tank-centric' content, Cryptic needs to ask itself some hard questions on how to address this lack.

    The purpose of my previous post was to point out that when the least desirable class becomes the maker/breaker of a run, the pressure on them increases enormously. Nobody ever wants to be that guy that causes the run to fail.

    I'm of the opinion that if Cryptic reassessed tank at-will & encounter damage to match that 70% goal, it would take the stress out of the issue of threat generation, give them more room to explore options and be more forgiving for tanks that aren't the best specced player in the team.

    Such a move would surely encourage players with shelved tanks to pick them up once again.

    * quote from: https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1246318/official-m16-fighter-feedback/p7

    I think the time has come to increase tank damage output instead of threat modifiers. When i run with a full "DPS" tank loadout (Fighter, Paladin and Barbarian tested), Im able to deal about 25-30% of the damage a pure DPS does at equal item level.
    This issue is very visible if a tank focuses only on defensive stats.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Let me pick out of my comment the main parts... "About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro..." "Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage." "...there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell." (notice the conditional!) "The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro."
    @wilbur626 Now, you ask me when does this happen... are you serious?

    @admiralwarlord Thanks for your kind tips, but what did you want me to do? Pat your head? I said focusing purely on threat generation bonuses would not get you anywhere, because threat is based on damage and at the same you still need to maintain some survivability. Congratulation, you figured out you don't intend to focus purely on threat multipliers... do not expect me to throw you a snack...

    @armadeonx I think they really are trying to do that, because tanks are the area the mechanics is by-passed the most... which is undesirable.
    I was hoping for spesific numbers (the "when"), and yes im serious.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    rikitaki said:

    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Let me pick out of my comment the main parts... "About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro..." "Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage." "...there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell." (notice the conditional!) "The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro."
    @wilbur626 Now, you ask me when does this happen... are you serious?

    @admiralwarlord Thanks for your kind tips, but what did you want me to do? Pat your head? I said focusing purely on threat generation bonuses would not get you anywhere, because threat is based on damage and at the same you still need to maintain some survivability. Congratulation, you figured out you don't intend to focus purely on threat multipliers... do not expect me to throw you a snack...

    @armadeonx I think they really are trying to do that, because tanks are the area the mechanics is by-passed the most... which is undesirable.
    I was hoping for spesific numbers (the "when"), and yes im serious.
    I am sorry, but I do not have any insider information about an exact day of release of purely hypothetical gear in a purely hypothetical scenario that tries to show how threat increasing gear might not be the best way to maintain the agro.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    wilbur626 said:

    rikitaki said:

    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Let me pick out of my comment the main parts... "About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro..." "Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage." "...there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell." (notice the conditional!) "The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro."
    @wilbur626 Now, you ask me when does this happen... are you serious?

    @admiralwarlord Thanks for your kind tips, but what did you want me to do? Pat your head? I said focusing purely on threat generation bonuses would not get you anywhere, because threat is based on damage and at the same you still need to maintain some survivability. Congratulation, you figured out you don't intend to focus purely on threat multipliers... do not expect me to throw you a snack...

    @armadeonx I think they really are trying to do that, because tanks are the area the mechanics is by-passed the most... which is undesirable.
    I was hoping for spesific numbers (the "when"), and yes im serious.
    I am sorry, but I do not have any insider information about an exact day of release of purely hypothetical gear in a purely hypothetical scenario that tries to show how threat increasing gear might not be the best way to maintain the agro.
    I will try again.

    Lets make this easy and use a tank with the following stats as example :

    1500000 Hit Points.,90% Defense, 90% Awareness, 90% Critical Avoidance, 90% Deflect, 90% Deflect Severity.

    At what point would changes to these stats make him what you define as "squishy as hell" ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,887 Arc User
    edited October 19
    You guys actually have a point where your thoughts coincide - increased damage from tanks (to 70% of a DPS) would solve the threat issue, get their damage output to where it should be (and make soloing open world content on a Pally easier as it has no dps path).

    * I'd also noticed that I sit around the 25-30% dps output in groups where I run my solo/dps build.
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  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:


    rikitaki said:

    wilbur626 said:

    rikitaki said:

    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Let me pick out of my comment the main parts... "About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro..." "Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage." "...there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell." (notice the conditional!) "The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro."
    @wilbur626 Now, you ask me when does this happen... are you serious?

    @admiralwarlord Thanks for your kind tips, but what did you want me to do? Pat your head? I said focusing purely on threat generation bonuses would not get you anywhere, because threat is based on damage and at the same you still need to maintain some survivability. Congratulation, you figured out you don't intend to focus purely on threat multipliers... do not expect me to throw you a snack...

    @armadeonx I think they really are trying to do that, because tanks are the area the mechanics is by-passed the most... which is undesirable.
    I was hoping for spesific numbers (the "when"), and yes im serious.
    I am sorry, but I do not have any insider information about an exact day of release of purely hypothetical gear in a purely hypothetical scenario that tries to show how threat increasing gear might not be the best way to maintain the agro.
    I will try again.

    Lets make this easy and use a tank with the following stats as example :

    1500000 Hit Points.,90% Defense, 90% Awareness, 90% Critical Avoidance, 90% Deflect, 90% Deflect Severity.

    At what point would changes to these stats make him what you define as "squishy as hell" ?
    OK, at this point I really think you are trolling here. Like seriously.

    First, it was hypothetical total focus on a agro bonuses - meaning, you would not put any specific points to survivability or damage. Which means, in that scenario, the tank would be purely on the couple of points of defence every piece of gear gives - plus a little bit of the other random stats gear gives.
    Second, I meant it literally: "really squishy" as "you die a lot". As.. "In the content you are supposed to tank, you die... a lot." I freaking do not care what the exact line would be. If you would not put anything to survivability at 60Kil as a tank - and went to a specific 60Kil (which does not exist now), you would not survive the hits there. Why the hell are you interested in a specific number, when all that matter is the result?
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,211 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    wilbur626 said:


    rikitaki said:

    wilbur626 said:

    rikitaki said:

    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Let me pick out of my comment the main parts... "About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro..." "Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage." "...there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell." (notice the conditional!) "The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro."
    @wilbur626 Now, you ask me when does this happen... are you serious?

    @admiralwarlord Thanks for your kind tips, but what did you want me to do? Pat your head? I said focusing purely on threat generation bonuses would not get you anywhere, because threat is based on damage and at the same you still need to maintain some survivability. Congratulation, you figured out you don't intend to focus purely on threat multipliers... do not expect me to throw you a snack...

    @armadeonx I think they really are trying to do that, because tanks are the area the mechanics is by-passed the most... which is undesirable.
    I was hoping for spesific numbers (the "when"), and yes im serious.
    I am sorry, but I do not have any insider information about an exact day of release of purely hypothetical gear in a purely hypothetical scenario that tries to show how threat increasing gear might not be the best way to maintain the agro.
    I will try again.

    Lets make this easy and use a tank with the following stats as example :

    1500000 Hit Points.,90% Defense, 90% Awareness, 90% Critical Avoidance, 90% Deflect, 90% Deflect Severity.

    At what point would changes to these stats make him what you define as "squishy as hell" ?
    OK, at this point I really think you are trolling here. Like seriously.

    First, it was hypothetical total focus on a agro bonuses - meaning, you would not put any specific points to survivability or damage. Which means, in that scenario, the tank would be purely on the couple of points of defence every piece of gear gives - plus a little bit of the other random stats gear gives.
    Second, I meant it literally: "really squishy" as "you die a lot". As.. "In the content you are supposed to tank, you die... a lot." I freaking do not care what the exact line would be. If you would not put anything to survivability at 60Kil as a tank - and went to a specific 60Kil (which does not exist now), you would not survive the hits there. Why the hell are you interested in a specific number, when all that matter is the result?
    That specific point is important though, it's what you build your build off of. Why would someone build a tank that can overtank? You don't need 1.5m HP, and all 90% defensive stats, you need something less than that, and turn any left overs into offensive stats.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    rikitaki said:

    wilbur626 said:


    rikitaki said:

    wilbur626 said:

    rikitaki said:

    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Let me pick out of my comment the main parts... "About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro..." "Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage." "...there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell." (notice the conditional!) "The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro."
    @wilbur626 Now, you ask me when does this happen... are you serious?

    @admiralwarlord Thanks for your kind tips, but what did you want me to do? Pat your head? I said focusing purely on threat generation bonuses would not get you anywhere, because threat is based on damage and at the same you still need to maintain some survivability. Congratulation, you figured out you don't intend to focus purely on threat multipliers... do not expect me to throw you a snack...

    @armadeonx I think they really are trying to do that, because tanks are the area the mechanics is by-passed the most... which is undesirable.
    I was hoping for spesific numbers (the "when"), and yes im serious.
    I am sorry, but I do not have any insider information about an exact day of release of purely hypothetical gear in a purely hypothetical scenario that tries to show how threat increasing gear might not be the best way to maintain the agro.
    I will try again.

    Lets make this easy and use a tank with the following stats as example :

    1500000 Hit Points.,90% Defense, 90% Awareness, 90% Critical Avoidance, 90% Deflect, 90% Deflect Severity.

    At what point would changes to these stats make him what you define as "squishy as hell" ?
    OK, at this point I really think you are trolling here. Like seriously.

    First, it was hypothetical total focus on a agro bonuses - meaning, you would not put any specific points to survivability or damage. Which means, in that scenario, the tank would be purely on the couple of points of defence every piece of gear gives - plus a little bit of the other random stats gear gives.
    Second, I meant it literally: "really squishy" as "you die a lot". As.. "In the content you are supposed to tank, you die... a lot." I freaking do not care what the exact line would be. If you would not put anything to survivability at 60Kil as a tank - and went to a specific 60Kil (which does not exist now), you would not survive the hits there. Why the hell are you interested in a specific number, when all that matter is the result?
    That specific point is important though, it's what you build your build off of. Why would someone build a tank that can overtank? You don't need 1.5m HP, and all 90% defensive stats, you need something less than that, and turn any left overs into offensive stats.
    But what does it has in common with my post? Why the hell do you guys quote me and go absolutely rogue not touching the quote at all, or try to force me to pretend I had some higher crusade in mind about area I did not talked at all? Go your crusade, just do not try to drag me into it, or label it being mine.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,211 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    arazith07 said:

    rikitaki said:

    wilbur626 said:


    rikitaki said:

    wilbur626 said:

    rikitaki said:

    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Let me pick out of my comment the main parts... "About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro..." "Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage." "...there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell." (notice the conditional!) "The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro."
    @wilbur626 Now, you ask me when does this happen... are you serious?

    @admiralwarlord Thanks for your kind tips, but what did you want me to do? Pat your head? I said focusing purely on threat generation bonuses would not get you anywhere, because threat is based on damage and at the same you still need to maintain some survivability. Congratulation, you figured out you don't intend to focus purely on threat multipliers... do not expect me to throw you a snack...

    @armadeonx I think they really are trying to do that, because tanks are the area the mechanics is by-passed the most... which is undesirable.
    I was hoping for spesific numbers (the "when"), and yes im serious.
    I am sorry, but I do not have any insider information about an exact day of release of purely hypothetical gear in a purely hypothetical scenario that tries to show how threat increasing gear might not be the best way to maintain the agro.
    I will try again.

    Lets make this easy and use a tank with the following stats as example :

    1500000 Hit Points.,90% Defense, 90% Awareness, 90% Critical Avoidance, 90% Deflect, 90% Deflect Severity.

    At what point would changes to these stats make him what you define as "squishy as hell" ?
    OK, at this point I really think you are trolling here. Like seriously.

    First, it was hypothetical total focus on a agro bonuses - meaning, you would not put any specific points to survivability or damage. Which means, in that scenario, the tank would be purely on the couple of points of defence every piece of gear gives - plus a little bit of the other random stats gear gives.
    Second, I meant it literally: "really squishy" as "you die a lot". As.. "In the content you are supposed to tank, you die... a lot." I freaking do not care what the exact line would be. If you would not put anything to survivability at 60Kil as a tank - and went to a specific 60Kil (which does not exist now), you would not survive the hits there. Why the hell are you interested in a specific number, when all that matter is the result?
    That specific point is important though, it's what you build your build off of. Why would someone build a tank that can overtank? You don't need 1.5m HP, and all 90% defensive stats, you need something less than that, and turn any left overs into offensive stats.
    But what does it has in common with my post? Why the hell do you guys quote me and go absolutely rogue not touching the quote at all, or try to force me to pretend I had some higher crusade in mind about area I did not talked at all? Go your crusade, just do not try to drag me into it, or label it being mine.
    Hey, you're the one who came into this thread and started to take issue with the OP and making these claims, not the other way around. Don't try and gas light.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 901 Arc User
    > @rikitaki said:
    > OK, at this point I really think you are trolling here. Like seriously.
    >
    > First, it was hypothetical total focus on a agro bonuses - meaning, you would not put any specific points to survivability or damage. Which means, in that scenario, the tank would be purely on the couple of points of defence every piece of gear gives - plus a little bit of the other random stats gear gives.
    > Second, I meant it literally: "really squishy" as "you die a lot". As.. "In the content you are supposed to tank, you die... a lot." I freaking do not care what the exact line would be. If you would not put anything to survivability at 60Kil as a tank - and went to a specific 60Kil (which does not exist now), you would not survive the hits there. Why the hell are you interested in a specific number, when all that matter is the result?

    I build all my tanks with focus on only offensive stats, and have yet to find content where I’m “too squishy”. That is why I ask. It would be interesting to know how low I can go on defensive stats before reaching this limit.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited October 19
    arazith07 said:

    rikitaki said:

    arazith07 said:

    rikitaki said:

    wilbur626 said:


    rikitaki said:

    wilbur626 said:

    rikitaki said:

    rikitaki said:

    @admiralwarlord About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro... I think you underestimate the role.

    Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage. If at lvl11 tank does roughly half the damage of the dps chars, in IL50k groups it can already drop to 10%. At IL60k tanks lose further % on every stat they did not focus on, which sums to a lot. Even if you would like to, there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell. Because you did not focus your gear and companions on survivability.

    The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro. It is not that noticeable at the beginning, but you really feel it as your IL increases. (Your suggestion to increase your max IL to increase your damage potential is flawed exactly because it is accompanied with a significant drop in stats that sabotages your goal.)

    Let me pick out of my comment the main parts... "About tanks and using companions and gear that increase aggro..." "Except the hard taunts, the aggro is generated by dealing damage." "...there are not enough items in the game that together would increase your threat generation 10x. But if there were - and you used them - at that point, you would be squishy as hell." (notice the conditional!) "The combat system makes you bad at areas you do not focus on. If you focus on aggro, you become squishy. If you focus on survivability, you lose aggro."
    @wilbur626 Now, you ask me when does this happen... are you serious?

    @admiralwarlord Thanks for your kind tips, but what did you want me to do? Pat your head? I said focusing purely on threat generation bonuses would not get you anywhere, because threat is based on damage and at the same you still need to maintain some survivability. Congratulation, you figured out you don't intend to focus purely on threat multipliers... do not expect me to throw you a snack...

    @armadeonx I think they really are trying to do that, because tanks are the area the mechanics is by-passed the most... which is undesirable.
    I was hoping for spesific numbers (the "when"), and yes im serious.
    I am sorry, but I do not have any insider information about an exact day of release of purely hypothetical gear in a purely hypothetical scenario that tries to show how threat increasing gear might not be the best way to maintain the agro.
    I will try again.

    Lets make this easy and use a tank with the following stats as example :

    1500000 Hit Points.,90% Defense, 90% Awareness, 90% Critical Avoidance, 90% Deflect, 90% Deflect Severity.

    At what point would changes to these stats make him what you define as "squishy as hell" ?
    OK, at this point I really think you are trolling here. Like seriously.

    First, it was hypothetical total focus on a agro bonuses - meaning, you would not put any specific points to survivability or damage. Which means, in that scenario, the tank would be purely on the couple of points of defence every piece of gear gives - plus a little bit of the other random stats gear gives.
    Second, I meant it literally: "really squishy" as "you die a lot". As.. "In the content you are supposed to tank, you die... a lot." I freaking do not care what the exact line would be. If you would not put anything to survivability at 60Kil as a tank - and went to a specific 60Kil (which does not exist now), you would not survive the hits there. Why the hell are you interested in a specific number, when all that matter is the result?
    That specific point is important though, it's what you build your build off of. Why would someone build a tank that can overtank? You don't need 1.5m HP, and all 90% defensive stats, you need something less than that, and turn any left overs into offensive stats.
    But what does it has in common with my post? Why the hell do you guys quote me and go absolutely rogue not touching the quote at all, or try to force me to pretend I had some higher crusade in mind about area I did not talked at all? Go your crusade, just do not try to drag me into it, or label it being mine.
    Hey, you're the one who came into this thread and started to take issue with the OP and making these claims, not the other way around. Don't try and gas light.
    Freaking read it post by post. Quote one PART of my post that "takes issue with the OP". One. Part. One is there, And I explained my point. (edit: and the issue is not even with the OP)
    And yes, I made claims. And I have problems with people digging out of those what is nowhere even their broader topic. Or quoting and then talking about something else.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 485 Arc User
    I'm disappointed. This was supposed to be a space to comment on sharing buffs and how this would or would not be able to improve all in-game functions in terms of survival, damage output and speed for content completion.
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