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Tank threat generation.

wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
edited October 2021 in General Discussion (PC)
@nitocris83 @noworries#8859

Hi!

After having tested Fighter Vanguard threat generation an absurd amount of times since the M16 changes to tank threat generation, I decided to collect information for all 3 tank paragons. The introduction of the training room would make this a lot more enjoyable than the hours spent hitting dummies in the Trade of Blades, as there is nothing that quite matches the feeling of getting interupted by a random player hitting the dummy for no reason at all after 491 at-will hits. The only thing stopping me from utilizing the training room for these tests, is the fact that you can not enter the training room with a party member ( @skingdev#1102 ).

These are the questions I would like to get answers to from the testing :

1. What is the base threat modifier for the Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin tank paragons ?
2. What % increase does the sentence "Increased Threat" translate to ? Is this the same for all paragons, or defined for each power ?
3. What % increase does powers that grant the effect "Your actions generate more threat" represent ? Is this the same for all paragons, or defined for each power ?
4. Do proximity play a role when it comes to aggro ?
5. Do control powers (Knock Back, Slow, Stun, Pull) generate threat ?
6. Do healing (Paladins Divine Touch) generate threat equal to threat generated by doing damage ?
7. Do self-healing (Fighters Second Wind, Barbarians Bloodletter + Primal Fury) generate threat equal to threat generated by doing damage ?
8. Do "overhealing" (healing over the amount of HP actually missing) generate threat, or is actual HP gained = threat generated ?
9. Will applying buffs/debuffs generate threat ?


In an effort to save myself from a few mental breakdowns, I decided to find every developer statement that could potentially ease the testing ;

I remembered a former dev giving details in the M16 Fighter feedback thread, but he is referring to possible changes before M16 launch :



Asterdahl giving details on threat in M16 Fighter feedback thread :




In these posts Asterdahl gives information that could answer a lot of the questions, but all testing done shows that the numbers are incorrect. @noworries#8859 stated that the base modifier for tanks was x4 in this interview :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdAiouwYLkE&t=1943s

The most interesting developer comment I found regarding threat generation was this :



The dev promises to provide FULL INFORMATION on tank threat modifiers "at some point in the future". Almost 3 years (and 6 full module releases) later, we still havent seen this information. The release of the Reapers Challenge could potentially mean a need for different tank loadouts, mening a perfect time to release this information.


Elite Whaleboy
Post edited by wilbur626 on
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Comments

  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,710 Arc User
    [Great post, Ive been testing tanking after walking away from it 2 years ago to see how viable a 40k tank Fighter Vanguard is in today's NW World.

    This "4. Do proximity play a role when it comes to aggro ?" I have tested in Tiamat and I cant aggro mobs a certain distance away during the clerics phase to keep them away from the clerics. That could be because a) im not generating enough threat and b) DPS types tend to stand too close to the clerics.

    Not sure if that helps or not]
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    I’m going to shockingly agree with Wilbur on this.

    Just as a GF Tank, I have poor results from enforced threat vs line breaker due to AOE and targeting.

    But my Pally can grab attention from across a bridge.

    Clarity would be nice.
  • aragon#8379 aragon Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    Paladin Tank Threat
    These are my findings from my tests of Paladin Threat modifiers. Would be very nice if we could actually see these in-game and thus it can help us figure out how much offense we may need to ensure we can hold the aggro.


  • walker#8832 walker Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    As it happens I've been experimenting with tank aggro as well, using different pally tank builds.

    I'd especially love to see more answers related to the Intimidating Presence feat (which I see on your chart there Aragon, thank you). It supposedly causes Divine Champion to "greatly" increase threat generation, and you lose the blocking benefit for that. I'm trying to figure out a way to make it a useful play option. You do get some fancy looking wings from it, so maybe it's at least good for picking up chicks? Hmmm

    If the Intimidating Presence version was redesigned to pulse out a "set me at top of threat list" taunt for the whole illuminated area around the Divine Champion tank, then I could see it being a useful option, and an interesting alternative to smite. For example, I suggest it could send out the first pulse after a 3 second delay, and then pulses every 3 seconds after that.
  • walker#8832 walker Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    Just as a data point for comparison, about a year ago someone named Malistairetheundying commented on Reddit that the Ring of the Condemned +5 generates "around 100-200 magnitude damage worth of threat every second. This is roughly the same amount of threat an at-will with the Increased Threat bonus generates."

    That ring is a common tank tool for aggro, so it would be nice to confirm the info, and to know further details such as the radius of effect and if the ring's threat magnitude is increased/decreased by other threat factors.
  • walker#8832 walker Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    Some test results. Friends and I did some testing to see if I could grab and/or hold aggro in combat with Intimidating Presence (IP) running plus any attacks that do not require divinity (aside from vow of course, which is already a taunt). We tested attacks that don't use divinity because the divinity is needed to keep the IP going for a useful amount of time.  So far the answer from the tests is no - not even close.

    I didn't have the brand new threat enhancing artifact set on for this, that should give some improvement, but I did have the aggro-while-moving ring on and the extra threat while standing still from the diamond artifact set. Survival oriented build with remainders into power.

    ps: Pumpkin-heads are the coolest, yay Halloween event B)
  • walker#8832 walker Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    I'm curious about the ring of darkness as a tank aggro tool, but don't have one to test with. Has anyone done careful testing on its aggro usefulness?

    Thanks,
    Walker
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    I posted my questions in yesterdays Reddit AMA and got the following answer :

    “ That is a lot of questions so I won't get to them all in order to give time for other questions.

    The base threat multiplier for tanks is 4.5x
    Increase % can be set individually by power, I'd have to check them all to see if they're currently all the same
    I don't believe proximity factors in at all outside of being within a certain range to be considered in the fight in the first place”

    That leaves 7 of 9 questions unanswered, could these be answered here in the forums @noworries#8859 ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • thomasisalonethomasisalone Member Posts: 78 Arc User

    I'm curious about the ring of darkness as a tank aggro tool, but don't have one to test with. Has anyone done careful testing on its aggro usefulness?

    Thanks,
    Walker

    (I have a vanguard, so this might not apply to OP and GWF)

    I'm hoping to get mine soon to test it, but in my experience DOTs aren't as good for keeping aggro as single big hits, so Band of Air is probably will be better. Some of it will depend on whether Ring of Darkness can stack (I don't know if it can), but even then I'd side with the Band. Band gives ~20-25% extra dps and each hit is like an extra encounter power - that's really good for aggro generation.

    I think because we don't know how much extra threat we're generating does lead tanks to focus too much on dps stats. Unless you're going for a dps-tank build like Wilbur's, you're sacrificing survivability for miniscule extra damage that doesn't translate much into threat generating. Having a clear indicator, or understanding in the tooltips, as to how much threat tanks generate would be really helpful. Otherwise, DPS and healers have a solid understanding how their classes work, but tanks are left with vague senses of what powers are doing. It would be like a cc power saying "stun" or not indicating the range of an encounter.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    The ring of darkness lowers an enemies accuracy 30%, or gives everyone 30% deflect sev also. Main reason i still use.
  • walker#8832 walker Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    That's a nice chunk of deflect severity 8)

    I spent a few weeks testing aggro on a pally tank again. I was hoping to be able to grab aggro using regular attacks instead of hard taunts, running intimidating presence a lot. This was a tanky defense oriented build mind you, not a damage build, with only moderate power (between 50 and 60 percent) and other offensive stats left alone. This approach still doesn't seem workable sad to say.
  • skulbukol#9415 skulbukol Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    As a tank, I always have to compete on threat with dps who have the band of air ring or who have excessive amount of dps. I can always get the aggro back but it's like tango, always have to get it back when aggro is stolen by a dps. It's a struggle but dps loves it when they steal aggro. Struggling to manage aggro and taking big hits is sometimes frustrating :disappointed:

    I just hope the devs could adjust all tank classes to help manage aggro better.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,259 Arc User
    edited February 2022
    wilbur626 said:



    1. Obvious bugs with powers (Paladin feat that should be increasing threat generation by 800% instead REDUCES threat generation by 800% for example).

    What feat? the 5th one that works on tab?
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
    Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
  • masteryoda#6623 masteryoda Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    As pally, before the latest update holding aggro was easy with high crit strike, since the update my crit strike stat is currently pretty much in the bin, I am planning to bring it back up with enchantments, I know many will recommend power but IV always found crit strike works better for me and I can just pop eye of the giant and practically cap power. Just my experience.

    By the way yes control powers generate threat no idea about what the hidden numbers are though
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User

    wilbur626 said:



    1. Obvious bugs with powers (Paladin feat that should be increasing threat generation by 800% instead REDUCES threat generation by 800% for example).

    What feat? the 5th one that works on tab?

    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    edited February 2022

    As pally, before the latest update holding aggro was easy with high crit strike, since the update my crit strike stat is currently pretty much in the bin, I am planning to bring it back up with enchantments, I know many will recommend power but IV always found crit strike works better for me and I can just pop eye of the giant and practically cap power. Just my experience.

    By the way yes control powers generate threat no idea about what the hidden numbers are though

    Why not go high power AND crit ? :D



    This is out of party, missing 6k power from chest
    Elite Whaleboy
  • walker#8832 walker Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    That's pretty similar to what I run for damage / solo use. Except your defensive stats here are quite a bit more tanky, I focus more on damage for that loadout to clear content faster.

    Nice balance of tankiness and damage there. 👍
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,405 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:


    1. Obvious bugs with powers (Paladin feat that should be increasing threat generation by 800% instead REDUCES threat generation by 800% for example).

    Weird thought: but you think this happened because asterdahl copied and pasted the Divine Touch code from the healer path?

    From what I remember checking of the Cleric/Paladin passives, they get something which "reduces the threat generated by heal powers".


  • maxzius#3795 maxzius Member Posts: 165 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    As a tank, I always have to compete on threat with dps who have the band of air ring or who have excessive amount of dps. I can always get the aggro back but it's like tango, always have to get it back when aggro is stolen by a dps. It's a struggle but dps loves it when they steal aggro. Struggling to manage aggro and taking big hits is sometimes frustrating :disappointed:

    I just hope the devs could adjust all tank classes to help manage aggro better.

    Tbh, aggro management/threat calculation is not an issue. As I see it, there are three major issues that lead to problems for some tank players
    The tank threat formula IS an issue. They should have updated it when they did the 'combat upgrade' last year and they didn't because it still worked when everyone was max 60-ish K and they half-HAMSTER everything. As item levels increase the formula is going to keep getting worse and worse.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User

    wilbur626 said:

    As a tank, I always have to compete on threat with dps who have the band of air ring or who have excessive amount of dps. I can always get the aggro back but it's like tango, always have to get it back when aggro is stolen by a dps. It's a struggle but dps loves it when they steal aggro. Struggling to manage aggro and taking big hits is sometimes frustrating :disappointed:

    I just hope the devs could adjust all tank classes to help manage aggro better.

    Tbh, aggro management/threat calculation is not an issue. As I see it, there are three major issues that lead to problems for some tank players
    The tank threat formula IS an issue. They should have updated it when they did the 'combat upgrade' last year and they didn't because it still worked when everyone was max 60-ish K and they half-HAMSTER everything. As item levels increase the formula is going to keep getting worse and worse.
    How exactly does the item level increase affect the formula ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • walker#8832 walker Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    > @stark760 said:
    > The ring of darkness lowers an enemies accuracy 30%, or gives everyone 30% deflect sev also. Main reason i still use.

    Anyone know how this 30% accuracy drop for band of darkness target was tested? I've been looking for a reference and haven't been able to find it.

    Thank you,
    Walker
  • shirghe#4424 shirghe Member Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited March 2022

    Anyone know how this 30% accuracy drop for band of darkness target was tested? I've been looking for a reference and haven't been able to find it.

    It's fairly easy to check in the training room. With 46.4% deflect severity, on deflect, I was getting hit for 16725.4/24508.7 = 1/1.4654 without the debuff and for 13883.1/24508.7 = 1/1.7654 with the debuff.

    In theory, that's about 6% average damage reduction (with 45% deflect chance).

    But it would be interesting to check the actual stats screen and potential stacking in PvP.

    The DoT damage from different players stacks (independent ticks). The dps from it was almost as high as from the Band of Air on my paladin.
    Post edited by shirghe#4424 on
  • walker#8832 walker Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    Awesome reply, thanks very much! I thought of trying a PvP test, but didn't think of that training room at all, will keep that in mind for future testing B)

    Appreciated,
    Walker
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    Now that the caped dwarfs conspiracy theories regarding @rgutscheradev return to the Neverwinter team has been proven correct, there may still be hope for a proper reply/clarification regarding threat generation.

    Elite Whaleboy
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    Mod 23 removes Trinity model, returns game to no-roles-needed roots. You heard it here first!
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 264 Arc User
    Damn pitshade, as a tank I Really don't want to completely redo my character again. That would really suck. Damn!
  • benyrbenyr Member Posts: 238 Arc User
    pitshade said:

    Mod 23 removes Trinity model, returns game to no-roles-needed roots. You heard it here first!

    April fools or legit? :smile:
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    Joking
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User

    Elite Whaleboy
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