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Random Queues and Item Level Requirement

kors#9447 kors Member Posts: 110 Arc User
With the reworks seen until now we are in a state where the matching of groups are pretty bad if Queue groups aren't pre-formed. The main issue can be found in the Random Advanced Dungeon Queue where the IL (Item Level) set as requirement is far from being enough for that kind of queue. A new player with base equipment and few other things is up to that IL, however they have not a strong character able to do the kind of contents that are in the queue mentioned above.
I'd like to suggest to rise the minimum IL required to 40k (up from 30k) in which players are supposed to have worked a bit on their toon and being able to complete the advanced dungeons that that random queue has.

I've often found that if a group isn't pre-formed it can barely (if you aren't lucky to get a half pre-formed group of people) complete the content or even doing things properly.
Also, another thing to mention (and this is not the first time I report it in the forums) is that particular mechanics of contents must be explained somewhere in the game. Maybe a pop-up guide when entrying in certain contents or before fighting certain bosses could be helpfull.

Cheers

Comments

  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 462 Arc User
    The random dungeon also has issues. Players that are low lvl can get into FBI and spellplague, and haven't even lvled their hero all the way to max lvl 20, or have any idea what mechanics are involved. I suggest make the advanced include some like FBI, MSPC, and move the RAQ IL required to at least 35k.
  • kors#9447 kors Member Posts: 110 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    Item level requirements are based on the highest dungeon in a queue, so in this case, Infernal Citadel. These item levels were completely fine when the dungeons first came out. If you want to raise the item level, the dungeon difficulty will have to increase along with it. Now player skill has certainly decreased as the content no longer is endgame and more players can easily attain these minimum requirements. Keep in mind that these are minimum requirements too, as in if you are at 30k you need more skill than those at 40k, 50k, 60k, etc will need to be able effectively do the dungeon. If you are on the cusp or have barely any clue about the dungeons in the queue, you should be finding a group to carry you or to do tutorial runs with. You should really only be solo queuing if you already know how to do the dungeon and your class.

    This is an MMO, being social should be required for some content, join a guild, make some friends. Games hardly ever tell you how to do boss mechanics, this know how is something the community develops and shares. Neverwinter does have several people who either stream on Twitch or post videos on Youtube, the information is out there.

    Honestly I think you went quite out of the topic. I want to say also that the patch that raised the IL of gears and all raised ILs a lot more than the increase of IL requirement for the contents. IC, if I remember right, was 25k IL when came out and 30k now isn't proportioned to the IL increase of few months ago.
    Also, you are talking about skills, but as mentioned in my initial post the simple levelling gives you stuff enough to get the minimum IL requirement to join the most advanced queue. And, at that point, you can't call a player skilled nor experienced. It's just a player not ready for the content they got the IL to join to. This is the reason I'm asking for a raise of IL requirement for that queue. A player that just started the game has a lot to do (campaigns etc), and has a lot to learn about game mechanics and class mechanics that make the advanced dungeon the least of the problems.
    Moreover, there are a lot of sources of rAD and a new player isn't obliged to run ALL randoms to reach the daily cap of rAD (and daily cap of refinement).
    Last thing: the concept that to do/complete an advanced dungeon requires to premade a group it's totally wrong. The entry in the content should allow to filter the players who can actually really do that content and not allow everyone to entry just because got free stuff by creating a toon.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,265 Arc User
    edited August 14
    Cryptic have a long tradition of setting the IL access requirement way too low.

    One thing is RADQ, where people quickly learn they will get fail or kicked if they go in there below 40k.

    Another thing is RDQ, where the variation in dungeon difficulty is so large that low IL is fine in some, but completely insufficient in others.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,905 Arc User
    To my mind, the issue that's mostly overlooked is that Item Level used to reflect your stats but now that is really not the case.

    The stats gained from enchantments and gear have been heavily reduced to accommodate the new class of stats gained from companions - but the enchantments and gear alone can bring a player to 30k to access dungeons they do not have the stats to effectively contribute to the run.

    The bonuses from companions are heavily slanted. A purple companion gives 3% but a mythic gives 7.8%. That is a huge gap and is expensive to address. Add on top the companion bolster & the reason for the capability difference becomes pretty obvious.

    There's a huge difference in capability between a reasonably geared 40k player (i.e. someone who has at least 2 or 3 mythic companions and the rest at leg or epic) and someone at 30k who has a couple of purples and the rest at green / blue (possibly not even a full complement of 10 and certainly not chosen for the appropriate bonuses for the player's role).
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  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,265 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    To my mind, the issue that's mostly overlooked is that Item Level used to reflect your stats but now that is really not the case.

    And boons do not change your IL at all, yet a full set of boons could mean 15-20% dps.
  • franciscoperolafranciscoperola Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    I think the discussion about queue random is being made from the wrong perspective, and I'll explain why.
    In the past there were always bad players, but you were able to finish the dungeons, but the same is not happening now. So something has changed.

    With mod 21 the structure of random queries has undergone a radical change, which clearly aims to create an artificial obstacle that leads players to spend real money on the game and, at the same time, radically reduce the amount of AD accumulated by veteran players. Novice players, but not only, will face a very difficult barrier to overcome.

    That's the only way to understand why a minimum level of equipment is not required to face one such as Castle Never, Fangbreaker Island, Valindra’s or Lostmouth, even more so for a measly reward of 6,000 AD. These queus have been integrated into the most accessible group, but as players are not stupid, no one makes them (I stopped doing them some time ago), because the waiting time is very long, and the participating players are very inexperienced, overwhelming the more experienced.

    As novices go through leveling and adventures, the system provides gear and AD with plenty of generosity and, consequently, they practically don't need to do the random ones. However, after reaching 30K, you can only progress, without spending real money on the game, running the random ones. And that's the real problem, as new players, with luck, can only raise around 40K AD a day, which is very little compared to mod 20, where they managed at least twice as much.

    Seeking to increase revenue is perfectly legitimate, but not in this way. After so many mistakes in the past, I thought Cryptic had already learned its lesson. It seems that I was completely wrong.
    Now I understand why Cryptic has become so generous with novice players, it hits with one hand and takes off with the other.

    I love Neverwinter (I fiercely defend it when it should be defended and I criticize it the same way when it should be criticized), and I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but if Cryptic doesn't change their strategy quickly, the result will be the opposite of intended, because, after spending money and getting no results, newcomers will swell the ranks of the game-haters, and curse it every day on the ARC and Steam forums.
    For most players, who play for free, the problem is easy to solve, they will play another game that is friendlier. And, the few veterans who are still present, leave for good.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,226 Arc User
    The company has an obligation to make money or the game goes away completely.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 797 Arc User
    "community events hosted with, by and for the community that are not about selling some new zen package deal, but to actually improve and form a tight community. Races, Titles, Transmutes for special occassions (that are not released on Zen store after the race/event :)') "

    This quote above caught my eye. When I read it I hear new players say "But if I can't have it too, it's not fair to everyone and it should not be in the game, it should be deleted." And I think this is connected to part of the problem. The company is so focused on making changes which attract new players at the expense of keeping old ones happy, ideally what you want is to retain your loyal player base and build on that and grow the game with new ones as well, but existing loyal players (who are after all responsible for the game still being in existence after so many years) just keep getting offended by damaging idiotic decisions which feel like a slap in the face and play less or leave entirely, and it becomes a thing where the majority player base just slowly mutates into something else where new players bring their existing expectations into the game and there is less and less of an existing playerbase around to teach the new ones and help them assimilate into the existing community. Only a small proportion of new players will stay long term, many will try the game and then move to another one after a time with no loyalty, so players who stay and are loyal to the game should be the #1 priority. Until they value the veterans the game is just going to die because the new players who do end-up becoming loyal will not outweigh the amount of players who ultimately leave. I personally am having a very hard time right now with what the game has become and how it is being run and although I'm trying to log-in here and there to help my guild I don't stay for that long, I don't know how much longer I want to play tbh.
  • onodrainonodrain Member Posts: 332 Arc User

    I think the discussion about queue random is being made from the wrong perspective, and I'll explain why.

    As novices go through leveling and adventures, the system provides gear and AD with plenty of generosity and, consequently, they practically don't need to do the random ones. However, after reaching 30K, you can only progress, without spending real money on the game, running the random ones. And that's the real problem, as new players, with luck, can only raise around 40K AD a day, which is very little compared to mod 20, where they managed at least twice as much.

    I don't know why people keep thinking the only effective way to make rAD is with random Q. That is not correct anymore. You can run a few characters thru MEx3 per day, do insurgencies and Bel and get well over 100k rAD per day. And you can do this with iLevel in the low 20's.

    Also, my understanding was that this game was made to emulate the table top experience. So a group of friends who used to play table top, but have now moved away from each other, can get a similar experience online. In that sense, this game is a hands down winner. There is a ton a content that is easily accessible with a 1-5 hour play time for groups to get together and have fun.

    As for the random Q. One huge problem is the scaling system. As the top content that is not scaled requires a DPS centric focus. But if you are scaled with that DPS focus, you get killed easily in scaled content because your defensive stat percentages are not high enough. How they configured the new Demo is brilliant. No DPS check. Everyone at iLevel 48k. If you know the mechanics it is simple, but if you screw up the mechanics, it eats your lunch. Demo's hit points are still high enough that it takes you a while to kill him in Phase 3. IMHO, it is how the content should all be reconfigured. Devs did a brilliant job on Demo refresh.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,905 Arc User
    onodrain said:


    Also, my understanding was that this game was made to emulate the table top experience. So a group of friends who used to play table top, but have now moved away from each other, can get a similar experience online. In that sense, this game is a hands down winner. There is a ton a content that is easily accessible with a 1-5 hour play time for groups to get together and have fun.

    Who ever played actual D&D, completed a dungeon and opened the chest only to find their reward was worth less than the key used to open it...?

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  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 309 Arc User
    edited October 1

    community events hosted with, by and for the community that are not about selling some new zen package deal, but to actually improve and form a tight community.
    Creative Competitions, actively motivate players to help with the content in a creative way.

    We had some exemple of events driven by players in the past : the pvp tournament (can't remember the name of the players who had organized it) the Barovian Bash organized by @sandukutupu, etc.

    Some official help on those kind of events could be something interesting, in one form or another (advertising, prizes to be given away like what they do with the content creator program, extending temporarily the instance size to allow more player to be at the same place at the same time [like what they do on EvE online when devs know a sector will be flooded with players because a huge battle is coming], etc).

    Personnally, i am already into organizing those kind of things in the limited population of my ally, i have always thought about trying something "server-wide" but always find there are too much limitations (one being the amount of AD i put in the rewards, it's already in the vinicity of 50M AD / event for my ally..., another one being the amount of players able to fit in the same instance [when i see they can be 35 allymates already for a 1h30 music quizz], etc)

    Who would be into a server wide "Avernus Fury Road" race organized by a player but sponsorised by the devs themselves ? :P


  • franciscoperolafranciscoperola Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    I just want to explain to Onodrain, that the point of view I expressed is not a personal perspective, as I am a veteran player with seven years of experience and, to raise the daily 100k, like today, for example, it was enough for me few seconds, because I have more than 2 million AD to refine.
    Of course there are many ways to do AD, for people like you and me: selling rare items in the House of Auctions is also one of them and one of my favorites. The problem is that novice players don't have tens of millions of AD, like you and me, in order to trade and earn millions.
    The problem is not me, or you, but the novice players who don't have any chance of getting where I got and where you got.
    I don't spend a penny on the game and never will. I have 10 characters and I bought them exchanging AD po ZEN, but now beginners, in addition to not getting AD would have to wait many years to get the same.
    I look at Neverwinter from the perspective of an average player, because it's that same player who will dictate the failure or success of the game. The game doesn't survive just with paying players and veterans, it needs a broad base of support.
    In short, no game survives attacking your player base like Cryptic is doing.
  • paixnidiaris1#0777 paixnidiaris1 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    Couldn't help but leave a comment reading all of these discussions...and .. i couldn't agree more ...+1 to all of you ..lol...
    compared to older mods..... cryptic devs nerf classes , destroy queues ,they bring out (expensive) upgrade possibilities for companions,mounts,collars,insignias....they bring out artifact weapons that even an average player cannot obtain( zariel,tomm,zariel favor that you cannot earn any more, stronghold mastered artis that cost 5mill both..) ...
    If this is not enough , laggs and rubberbanding are present for at least one week ,what the hell...
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