Suggestion: Add Insignias to the Wonderous Bazaar

jihalla · July 2021

Kill two birds with one stone.
1). Makes plenty of powder accessible for the Mythic insignia upgrades.
2.) Creates a potentially huge AD sink to help reduce the ZAX.

johnnystranger · July 2021

There will be plenty of dust available, via the zen store .
The ZAX would ruin the company’s bottom line . It’s WAI .
Imho

hadestemplar · July 2021

jihalla#0769 said:
Kill two birds with one stone.
1). Makes plenty of powder accessible for the Mythic insignia upgrades.
2.) Creates a potentially huge AD sink to help reduce the ZAX.

Well this eliminate grind and trading.. All is need to log in, do daily Trial/dungeon/skirmish runs, claim 100k AD, which you spend for insignais.

But I don't see why it should affect ZAX, players thrown AD to ZAX not to buy regular stuffs from ZEN store,, they all aim to VIP, rest of stuffs from ZEN store you can find in AH anyways..

Other thing with your suggestion, take VIP with 25% discount, they easily gain advantage on it. They will buy insignias from Wondrouns Bazaar and sell with adjusted prices, like 10% cheaper than what non VIP would pay.

The AH get quickly overflood with insignias, which drop their value. Now to remind you, insignias can be upgraded, and unlike enchantments who relaying on regents like mark of potency and enchanting stones, insignia upgrading relayin on Insignias( different ranks) and powder which you gain from insignais too.

So very quickly their value goes down, and legendary insignais would be cheap as Enchantment ranks 9 or 10. Thas somewhere bellow 50k.
The ones who reap benfits would be with max VIP with 25% discount.. Less AD will flow in market but will be gathered in one place.. So it's not even sink AD, but will boost up ZAX issue.

If you want this your idea work, then insignias from Wondrous Bazaar should be character/account bind once you purchase them.

Now understand that I am not against such or similar ideas, but pls guys/girls think from multiple sides.

1) how benefit players.
2) Benefit company - ( game maintaining cost money, if they can't get money from one side or make other stuffs less valuable and players less buy them, then company must add otther ways how make money).
3) how you can exploit in negative way - some play legit way but will always appear someone who will try exploit in negative way.. So you must look how it would not happen in this way.. To prevent possibilities from abusing feature is more beneficial, then add it and latter try clean up mess.

hadestemplar · July 2021

@arkhadiam#2543

This analysis that you do on the insignias and the powder, in general, I do not see the problem. From what you say, it would be perfect for me (and for most players) to put those insignias "Bound to account/character". If they do, the only ones who would be sad would be the VIP12 speculators. For the rest:

- An extra source for obtaining insignias/powder.
- A cheaper source? (it all depends on the price they put on it)
- Trade would not end because people will continue to obtain insignias as drops (they can be traded), and there will always be demand. And the price will be limited by the bazaar.
- From the MOD21, a large part of the investment that anyone makes will be in powder, so those AD would go directly to the bazaar or to the AH and not to the ZAX.

---> As you can see, neither grinding nor trade would end. And indirectly it would lower the ZAX

The reason why I prefer acoount/character bound is that, it then would act as AD sink for sure, cuz spent AD is removed from game. If you can sell via AH or trade in general, you simply migrate AD from one account to other, and gained AD player spend in ZAX.
Thats the difference.

Other thing adding Insignias in wondrous bazzar will not 100% remove trading, yet changes will impact market greatly and mostly get hurt casual players. Also need to remember that epic Insignias also more less premium reward in dungeon chest at this moment.

This wondrous method is hardly "exploitable" in a negative way. It is an NPC, you spend your AD, the market can be distorted by speculators ... and prices would be fixed in relation to the limit established by the Bazaar ..... Would you see any exploit method?

I am not sure have you heard or not about how players making ad with mark of potency and enchantment stones from Woundrous bazaar.

Player daily gets 100k AD from Trial/eDungeon/skirmish. We use this sum as example, now also add VIP rank 12 which gives you 25% discount in Wondrous Bazaar.

Here is how you do.

Buy like mark of Potency rank 5, which cost 100k for non VIP. Due 25% discount as VIP you pay only = 75k..
Add it to AH for like 90k price tag, which is still lesser than what non VIP players or lesser ranked VIP pay.

Since you are VIP listing fee is eliminated, yet AH takes 10% of your profit. Little bit math trick.

90k - 10% = 9k. ( AH fee) thats lead 81k in your pocket. 81k - 75k = 6k profit. Though it's looks silly, here is one thing. More items you list, more you make. List 13 Mark of Potency rank 5 for 90k and it will make you 78k, thats mean with each step you gain one free mark of potency. After 13 times you sell them all, your all scheme runs on it's own without need to add extra AD from your farmings like dungeons or selling other stuffs..

On top of that, since you sell for 90k which is still 10k cheaper that non VIP players would pay, even players with VIP whom not have reach discount to same price tag would buy them.

Other thing, for casual player this 90k price does not look so bad deal. Considering alternative, which is you may spend whole day farming them and gain nothing. And fact that even if you spend 90k now, next day you will get 100k again.

Thats why farming them and try sell without this scheme is more less nonsese. Mostly players farm during x2 Dread ring event and stockpile for own future needs, and not for selling.

Insignias in other hand comes few ways.

Lockbox = depend on your luck with RNG.
Dungeon chest = dpend on your luck with RNG.

Tarmalune trade bar = only if you have them in first place. And even then players would spend them when there are discount for them to gain most benefits. On top of that since this store also sell mount/companion upgrade tonkens, which considered one of best ways to boost up or max out your companion/mount boister. So it's easily to assume they are in higher priority list than insignias.

So in other words, there is no constant high stream of them being thrown in AH and that insignia upgrade system. Which in order to refine and upgrade them, require lesser ranked insignias and powder as catalist.
Which remove them from game.

If there will be way to get them anything, thats will lead to get AH overflood with insignias, whcih lead fast and easy upgrading and max out them..
At first it's a benefit for players, cheap insignias, easy to max out. All happy.

But very quickly that ends, I mean, no one will sell with higher price tag then what you can get from Wondrous bazaar. As like with potency rank 5, would you pay 110k in AH and pay 100k in Wondrous bazaar? Players pick cheaper variant.

So players with 25% discount will dicatate prices. Casual players will be pushed out of trading. Even if you get lets say epic insignia as reward in dungeon chest.
To sell it in AH, well as example with mark of potency rank 5.. You will not for 100k, you will sell for 90k as ones who play market, maybe 5k cheaper to get make quick selling, cuz each time listing = cost if you are not VIP. Listing multiple times = more lose then benefit.

And even if lets say you sell with cheaper price tag then usually some guy with VIP grab it, and ressel it with price.

So ones who have 25% discount gains AD whom spend in ZAX. And circle keep going.

And finally, we find the key factor ..... which is to "benefit" the company. Obviously, any method that helps (and really helps) to get stuff for free and also reduces the collapse of the ZAX, implicitly leads to players spending less $$.
This is the main reason why they never really want to solve some financial problems that they created themselves.

Here is one thing need to understand cryptic studios and PWI do not controll directly ZAX. They only can manage rates, maybe set up how offten you can list, but over al they can't do much.

This ZAX system is not Cryptic studios invetntion, the oldest game whom I played and had similar or even same like system where as early as 2008. But I would not be suprised that where games who utilized such feature even before.

But now ask yourself why not all Free2Play mmo's don't use this feature? The answer is that it double edge sword, it can act as
tool to reward hardcore players. But also it can be exploited and cause in game economy crash. Whom also affect companies incomes and etc..

In order to keep this system, you need keep eye on market or cause lot of trouble..

And mmo game with dead economy = dead game. Cuz essentially there is no more mmo, and players have to use wallet.
When game start to demand your wallet most of time, well, Trion Games (ArcheAge) learned one lesson in hard way. The outcome where that private server ArcheRage where opened as protest and most players went there. Which latter end up with Trion game loosing money, also bringing their publishing license to quostion, and doubting about your capability to handle other mmo games.. So eventually, October 22, 2018, Trion Worlds was acquired by Gamigo.

The idea proposed in this thread is very interesting, but you don't have to be very smart to know that what benefits the player does not benefit the company.

This is an idea that the vast majority of players would support, except for the "big whales", who are interested in maintaining this economic gap with the rest of the players, and the devs for obvious reasons.

The "whales" is good and bad in same time..
But one thing is that for sure is that, once game become more about "whales" then devs game is no longer in dev/publishers hands. And for sake them to please "whales" they may sacrifice other part of game community.
Casual players discouraged at start, which simply make game less appealing. So they leave.. Even possible future "whales".
Also what happens when whales start to leave game?? Then what?

Also I want to bring one question for you and everyone who like these so called "whales" speculations.

How you can you be sure that few or small group of players whom are callled as "whales" outsped remained game community combined??

In order to know who spend most and how offten and whom realy bring most incomes for company can only seen by PWI and maybe Cryptic Studios, no player have access to this data. I doubt that even devs know details about it, and that only managers may acess to this data. And no mentioned to reveal also would require PWI/Cryptic Company Managers aproval too.

So how can you be sure that game should focuse more and please players whom someone call "whales"?
Also are you that richest players in games are ones who spend most money?

Lot of times casual players spend more money cuz they don;t play daily, and simply use money to catch up others..

Other nice example is Black Desert online, wh do you think players call it pay2win? Cuz previous publisher Kakao games was managing game arround so called "whales". Whom use wallet more than for cosmetic stuffs..

That didn't end well, community where outrage, which lead Pearl abyss to step in and take over game publishing for themself.

And now they try clean up mess.

So are you sure that game should be pleasing whales?

My opinion is that, some extra reward for big spenders would not hurt, maybe unique titles, unique skins and etc.. But also game should not be arround whales, cuz that break game.. And no one likes broken game..

tchefi · July 2021

jihalla#0769 said:
SUGGESTION: ADD INSIGNIAS TO THE WONDEROUS BAZAAR

Kill two birds with one stone.
1). Makes plenty of powder accessible for the Mythic insignia upgrades.
2.) Creates a potentially huge AD sink to help reduce the ZAX.

I would really prefer direct powder in the WB rather than insignas themselves, especially if your idea is to have epic and legendary unbound ones there.

But it's probably better to avoid the "mark of potency" effect (though it's not as powerful as some years ago @arkhadiam#2543 : buy with -%event/-%VIP on WB, sell on AH with margin but still a bit under the "no event/not VIP" WB prices = for yourself use the profit margin you got to buy your own insignas or simply make AD with AD, at the end the AD sink is shifted on "not VIP players" and it helps the recent VIP players to build up quicker their 5x5k demands on the Zax).

Anyway this "WB insigna" idea can't fix the Zax issue/sink AD in the long run, it's only helping for a moderately long period of time, delaying the problem further (exactly the same as any new level for enchants).
If i take myself as an exemple : once my AD/tradebars are sunk to get my 15x3 mythic insignas (because 3 "good" toons to equip), and it wont be long before i'm done with that, then i'm back using insignas as a source of growing personnal AD. Much like what I did when powder and legendary insigna were anounced for mod16, but with profiting from the WB to grow even more my wealth (not that it would change anything for the Zax ^^, a backlog superior to 60-80 days is well enough for me to permanently roll 5x5k Zax demands)

In fact, any idea that is not a "consummable/repeatable" concept (player able to "max it out") can't fix the Zax/lack of AD sink issue.

Off topic : In my opinion, the various nerfs on consummable we currently see (elixir, food) can be an opportunity for cryptic to introduce new powerful consummables sold by NPC for AD and/or crafted by players with AD (like the reinforcement kits). To develop this idea a bit more, I can imagine a 90% cap reached by equipment+old consummables, those new powerful "AD" consummables allowing you to get up to 93% (for exemple). As players love to compete for dps, i'm pretty sure some would use those AD consummables just to see their name 1st on the paingiver weenie-meter.

hadestemplar#9918 said:
But I don't see why it should affect ZAX, players thrown AD to ZAX not to buy regular stuffs from ZEN store,, they all aim to VIP, rest of stuffs from ZEN store you can find in AH anyways..

Bank slots and toon slots can't be purchased on the AH, and can be a secondary Zen target after VIP is secured. I'm not sure if racial packs are sellable on the AH (with all the account-wide bags/mounts/comps/fashion in), and can't test as once you bought/used one it's gone from the Zen Store for your account.

hotfrostworm · July 2021

I am not going to quote anything from above here.

This company designs their games to appeal to the player character betterment. Some call it "Pay to Win" but I sure don't, there is nothing to win here. Other online games I have tested cater to player character ego, these sell costumes, weapon skins, and other glamour items for housing to be seen by other players. Then there are the play for free, but additional content will cost you, as in downloadable content packages.

Anything Cryptic sells for zen will not be offered for AD. They sell insignia packs or they drop in lock boxes or you can grind multiple insignias to rank them up with the powder they produce. These insignia grant you more power and better your character. Not many games will give away items you are meant to buy. Some will have a special event to promote the item and once it is gone, they know others who missed it will have to buy it.

Free to Play Game is a very loose definition for any and all games. The game can be Free to Play to a certain level or have restricted areas meant for paid customers only. I always wanted to see my definition of a true "Free to Play" online game. There are only 2 methods by which anyone could make such a game.

1. They could use sponsored product placement within the game.

For example, imagine flying around in a city as a superhero and seeing billboards for Coke and Pepsi. Playing the radio in the car you just stole and hearing an advertisement for Nike running shoes or picking up a magazine off the rack and getting a real life coupon for 50% off a can of Monster energy drink. All of this advertisement (depending on the genre) would add immersion and generate real revenue for the game.

2. Player supported donations.

Players would gift money to generate more server time. The game designers would set up a clock showing the remaining time the game has before the servers go offline from lack of funds. The time would be increased for each donation no matter how large or small, it would calculate the funds into server time remaining for the game. One could call it a Doomsday Clock I suppose, the idea would be, playing a fun game without the consumerism or grind would appeal to some players who would donate to keep the game online.

These models would be truly free to play, then there would be no need for a cash store or catering to a special group of players needs, wants, and desires.

hadestemplar · July 2021

tchefi#6735 said:

Bank slots and toon slots can't be purchased on the AH, and can be a secondary Zen target after VIP is secured. I'm not sure if racial packs are sellable on the AH (with all the account-wide bags/mounts/comps/fashion in), and can't test as once you bought/used one it's gone from the Zen Store for your account.

SUre you can buy bank or shared bank slot expansion, but now ask yourself is it needed? I mean if there are non Bound items, you can simply store in your alt's Guild bank. THere are countless single players guilds who's bank are utilized for such purpose. While bound stuff keep in your inventory and these legendary bags are very helpful in this way.

The difference is that, you don't spend ZEN at all, you only using AD for such purpose.. Either get bags or unlock Guilds bank slos..

But I am sure you alredy knew that..

hadestemplar · July 2021

arkhadiam#2543 said:

I disagree .... I don't think the existence of a "cap" price affects "casual" players. These players, by concept, don't have great resources ... and they don't grind insignias either. That the insignias are cheaper with that method only benefits them.

Also as I wrote, as for now epic and even rare ranked insignias are great items as rewards for casual players.. Once there is source to get them anytime greatly diminish it's value. Eventually you get insignai and it will be same as now you get rank 8 enchantment. You simply throw away, cuz to try sell will cost more than what you would gain.

Game went same path before, with enchantment realated catalists when VIP feature got implemented. Now we going same route again. So outcome already obvious.

I know how profit via Wondrous Bazaar works if you have VIP12 ... But, from the moment you put those insignias/powder (I don't care) bound to character/account, you can no longer "exploit" that method.

By the way, I don't know what it will be like on PC, but on Xbox since the last two months of avernus (which is where I really started trading), MOP5s have never been above 65k and MOP6s have never been above of 90k in the AH.
When I say that the method is very difficult to exploit, it is because it is.

Thats the reason I suggested to make them bound to account once you buy them from store. Then we avoid this explotation scheme.

65k for potency rank 5. Are you sure it's not 75k? It's rise suspicions why it's 65k.
Either potency drop rates are higher than what on PC, or there are utilized automated tools aka Bots.

If this where for temporally then it's understandable due x2 Dread ring drop rates. But to sell cheaply most of time.. Then there should be massive player base farming them all time.

And in the end, as casual player who just jumped in game done daily stuffs, got Potency mark 5, would you sell it for such price?? I mean you will still pay listing fee is you are not VIP, and AH will take 10% from your profit which lead you lose 6.5k AD, and from 65k you end up with 58.5k ad in your pocket.
Not so encouraging to farm them.

hadestemplar#9918 said:

Tarmalune trade bar = only if you have them in first place. And even then players would spend them when there are discount for them to gain most benefits. On top of that since this store also sell mount/companion upgrade tonkens, which considered one of best ways to boost up or max out your companion/mount boister. So it's easily to assume they are in higher priority list than insignias.
Here I do not agree either. You can't assume that ... it would even be the other way around. Those who focus on getting Powder will be end-game players. And those players already have 100% bolsters and all the companions / mounts they need. Saying that they will prioritize tokens before powder is a mistake.

At the beginning and at the end ... and yes, that is what it is about, to reduce/facilitate the cost of 37,500 powder.

To read your written line it's like deja vu. Same was told when VIP get introduced. And said all would be happy. Yet tell me how happy you are when you get rank 9 enchantment as reward? Or lesser rank ones?
Or when you get items which give your refine points?

Their value now equal to trash. That's how happines ended.

And here, you repeat the same thing. You are obsessed with the VIP12 and 25% ... it is as simple as putting the items of the Wondrous Bazaar Bound to character/account. So you do not allow the speculation that the VIP12 can do.

And yet again it's me who pointed to make them bound. To avoid same scheme.

Here I do not agree either ... the ZAX, in the end, reflects the value of the Zen Vs AD. If there is a demand for months it is because Zen has much more value. And that's because more and better stuff is being introduced into the zen market. And there, obviously, those responsible are the developers.
The only way to solve this is to give AD Value with good stuff at a good price. In this way players will spend their AD directly without using the ZAX. As long as this does not happen, the ZAX will remain the same or worse.

You have 1k ZEN, where do you spend? What is best investment? obvious answer is VIP. Only who have more spare ZEN would probably buy some extra mount like wings. Now if you make Wings cheaper which devs does with discounts, does it also reduce value of ZEN? No. Since in ZAX rates where adjusted to 750 AD for 1 ZEN it did not change at all.

The backlog didn't appear over night, it was growing through years. And biggest grow started since VIP. Cuz VIP gives keys, gives discounts and etc.
More keys you use = more stuffs claim form lockbox, even if it's not mounts, you still gain stomething. On top as safeguard you still gain tarmalune trade bar.

This idea about adding more stuffs in Wondrous Bazaar is good. Cuz when player buy there, the sum of AD spend there is simply removed from game..
However it will not fix ZAX at all. Cuz as I wrote in first line, VIP remain as best investment. Not mount, not companion, not bank expansions but VIP.

As long players can make ZEN via ZAX and get VIP they all will aim to it.

The solution is simple yet it's brutal. And I am sure no one want this..

1) Remove VIP from ZEN store and move it to Website.. So players buy it directly with cash, no play arround with ZAX.
2) Add seprated VIP features in ZEN store.
As example - 1 enchanted key per day for 1 month or 7 days for x zen.
AH listing removal for 7 or 30 days. = x zen.
Summoning map/teleportation for 7 or 30 days. = x ZEN.
Wondrouns Bazaar discount - for 7 or 30 days = x zen.

More less you buy seprate features in ZEN store.

On top of that add premium instances in game server..
That's mean only players with VIP can access it. The instances may have increase creatures/enemies respawn rates..
Also when buying VIP's from website some extra stuffs may be added in pack.. Like unique titles, or trasmutes( costmetic stuffs) maybe extra mount or companion ( bound ones).

You want VIP, pay for it.

And to be fair, same method have been used by other games whom I played before. But as I wrote above, no one want truly fix this issue, compnay don't much care as long gain money. And same can be said about players. They all want to keep this going even if backlogs keep rising.

hadestemplar#9918 said:

The "whales" is good and bad in same time..
But one thing is that for sure is that, once game become more about "whales" then devs game is no longer in dev/publishers hands. And for sake them to please "whales" they may sacrifice other part of game community.
Casual players discouraged at start, which simply make game less appealing. So they leave.. Even possible future "whales".
Also what happens when whales start to leave game?? Then what?

We will see it very soon because we are at that point.

Yes, we are at this point, a cross road and devs have to pick where game goes.

I don't understand this question

I simplify question. .

Whom spend more,
A) 10 players 100 $$$ monthly,
or
100 players spend 10$ montly.

I dont know what point you want to tell me here .... for me, "big whale" is not the one that has spent thousands of dollars. He is the one who opens his bank and has resources worth hundreds of millions. I don't care if they got it for years or with $$, because the end result did not change the current reality.
What I do say is that I have already met some of these types of players who defend the current situation of the game. Why? ... because while "new" / "casual" players are hard-stucked with the 100k daily, they just have to open the bank, take "x" r15 or "x" mount and put it up for sale.
And this, directly or indirectly, ends up controlling the game. That's why they don't want things to change.

OK so here is how you see. If I would have tons of goods and lot of AD and lets say lot of ZEN in my account, you would say I spend lot of $$$ in this game??

Now here is one thing, yes there are ones who spend money, some even big sums, yet your items in your account do no defy are you spend more ..

There are whom stockpiled stuffs and goods and zen and AD via legit way, and I respect such player.
And ther are whom gained them all and even more in non legit way. Exploiting glitches, scamming, botting.

In mid/end of mod 13 I was in non eng speaking alliance.. One player joined us, he was Paladin ( obviously). He utilized multi client app. And with his multiple accounts whom he made party and farmed dungeons and even Guild pvp, whom where giving blood rubby whom costed 50k each. On top he was not even shy to exploit some broken mechanics to gain advantages and even run bots over night.

Within 6 months he not only max out on main account he was securiing VIP for other x3 alt accounts, by utilizing ZAX. And very quickly reach end game and eventually he reach poit that he was able buy anything in AH without problems..

Now one thing to let you know, I knew him well, to be fair he lived like less than 1 mile from me. I even repaired his PC multiple times. He was good at exploiting game glitches and running bots, realy good. Even when this 14 Barovia hunt with tarroka Card glitch, he was abusing since was able get there.

Eventually he left game, not due ban waves in mod 15, but simply he was bored. As far I know, now he plays EVE online.

So, to assume that x player posses lot of goods are also one who spend most, is not true. And this apply to any mmo rpg games up to day. Have seen similar thing in other games too, when at first seems player who spend lot of momey actually spend very little.

As good example, have you heard about "fake" rich peoples? Who faking they are rich. The point is to convince others that you are rich and there for banks would lend money, or gain x companies supports and etc..

In other words you faking being rich, so you could become rich.. By manipulate others opinion based on your appearance.

It's nice trick. And it's also work on players too You convince you are rich, and try shape game for own advantage, which you use to become richest player.

That's why never rush in conclusions, based on appearance only.

I think that with this last thing you say, I can say that you have not understood anything about my post, tbh

Read few lines above,. Faking being rich to concinve players you are rich, to shape game for own needs, to use it as advantage to become rich.

Also X player may be richest in game, but question how he got there. With grining, with spending money or cheating..

And its not only here in NEverwinter, but in almost all games whom I played before.. IF there is way to cheat, there will always appear someone who do so.

As for finall liners,, I shared my opinion, you or someone else don't agree about it. Well fine by me, I am not here to convince someone/anyone.

It's seems we started move out of thread topic.. If you want keep debates, the is need to create seprated thread.. Other than that I drop drop an anchor here. There for this is my last commnet about insignia at etc..

tchefi · July 2021

arkhadiam#2543 said:

The question is not to take the time that the ZAX has to 1-2 days ... it would be to take it to something reasonable (2 weeks? ... 20 days?).

Really depends.
For a new player, 30 days should be reasonnable.
For someone who is playing for more than 6 months, 90 days is probably still acceptable.
For an old player, personnaly I don't mind waiting up to 150 days (= ability to get at least 25k Zen at both jubilee and blackfriday).

For what it matters, i don't mind paying 10€/month for VIP (as a sort of subscription, it feels quite cheap when you play around 100h/month... in France it is as expensive as 20 cigarettes...).
But whatever they add in the game, I will never put Zen in the Zax to get AD, it feels extremely counter-intuitive for me, even when Zaxing for AD was considered "interesting". I pay for an entertainement service, not for virtual thingies.

greywynd · July 2021

This issue was resolved when they took the wards out of the trade bar merchant; you don't find the same things that are in the zen market for purchase in the Bazaar or trade bar store.

raziel2004 · July 2021

Powders can be a good loot after finishing any randoms similar like seals or Rads.

kaksika88 · July 2021

Can be a good idea

Suggestion: Add Insignias to the Wonderous Bazaar

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