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Hell Pit Sadness and Remorse Over The state of NW

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  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 666 Arc User
    edited May 5

    Yeah, this event is no longer the fun ride it used to be and since I mainly used it to get health stones there's no point this time since I'll be consuming the uses faster than earning them. Just another example of how scaling is a failed waste of resources and worthless design decisions. On the plus side: rejoice! Skipping the event means you can do other things... like try out better and more exciting MMOs without worthless scaling.

    Cryptic likes playing stupid games, they can win stupid prizes.

    I love this. So apt. So relevant. So true.

    Is it the event is harder or is it that the Combat Rework has nerfed some toons?

    Or is it wonky scaling?
    A bit of everything with a dose of depression.
    See, I play a few other things now, and in those a setback (like dying in hellpit would be, imo) might make me and others rage a bit - but you always want to come back to beat it.
    Like. Thats part of playing a game. You get annoyed if its not working like it should - but the fun is to tweak it to make it work. That way you feel even better about beating it.
    (I think thats how some people see the scaling. "if its harder its even more fun to beat :)" but it doesn't work, because it doesn't feel rewarding. Maybe it will one day after they finally got rid of everybody that has been around before M15 and can compare it to what it was)

    I tried this times hellpit once - and when it came down to adapting with a loadout that I would only need for hellpit, I just logged out again. Nothing makes me want to give my toon more thought to beat it. I'd rather not try at all.

    Maybe that's just me being lazy, but if something is very fun to beat (as in, enjoyable even though (or because of) being a pain in the HAMSTER) I will come back to try it. It's just not.
    NW is probably one of the few games where people are occupied with anything but playing the game - you can see that in how people often avoid running any kind of content. Somedays its more a chat-with-visuals. I imagine its hard to get it out of a hole like that when people are already expecting this by logging in.
    You can hear "this hellpit event rn is trash" and ask them if they tried it - often they didn't :D
    - bye bye -
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,120 Arc User



    Is it the event is harder or is it that the Combat Rework has nerfed some toons?

    Or is it wonky scaling?

    Yes?
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 302 Arc User
    Really wish events like this would be more tailored to the class and what it specializes in, but guess that'd be too much of an issue. As a fighter, I never need a single potion, dps or tank spec, since I have so much sustain with just second wind + envenomed + regen mount. 3 times a minute I can 100% regain my hp and while regaining hp, lower shield to regain stamina without feeling pressured.

    I noticed some of the smaller enemies followed step for step while I tried to move to avoid them having CA over me, similar to how Halaster behaves where he clings to the player until they stop moving.

    I haven't built around the new combat system on my fighter (80% ish power, 50-60% in everything else) and I don't use an active companion, bulette seems to do just fine.

    With the newest combat changes, mob waves were built with a tank and healer more in mind so I'm suspecting they didn't re-balance the mobs for the new system.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,498 Arc User

    Yeah, this event is no longer the fun ride it used to be and since I mainly used it to get health stones there's no point this time since I'll be consuming the uses faster than earning them. Just another example of how scaling is a failed waste of resources and worthless design decisions. On the plus side: rejoice! Skipping the event means you can do other things... like try out better and more exciting MMOs without worthless scaling.

    Cryptic likes playing stupid games, they can win stupid prizes.

    I love this. So apt. So relevant. So true.

    Is it the event is harder or is it that the Combat Rework has nerfed some toons?

    Or is it wonky scaling?
    A bit of everything with a dose of depression.
    See, I play a few other things now, and in those a setback (like dying in hellpit would be, imo) might make me and others rage a bit - but you always want to come back to beat it.
    Like. Thats part of playing a game. You get annoyed if its not working like it should - but the fun is to tweak it to make it work. That way you feel even better about beating it.
    (I think thats how some people see the scaling. "if its harder its even more fun to beat :)" but it doesn't work, because it doesn't feel rewarding. Maybe it will one day after they finally got rid of everybody that has been around before M15 and can compare it to what it was)

    I tried this times hellpit once - and when it came down to adapting with a loadout that I would only need for hellpit, I just logged out again. Nothing makes me want to give my toon more thought to beat it. I'd rather not try at all.

    Maybe that's just me being lazy, but if something is very fun to beat (as in, enjoyable even though (or because of) being a pain in the HAMSTER) I will come back to try it. It's just not.
    NW is probably one of the few games where people are occupied with anything but playing the game - you can see that in how people often avoid running any kind of content. Somedays its more a chat-with-visuals. I imagine its hard to get it out of a hole like that when people are already expecting this by logging in.
    You can hear "this hellpit event rn is trash" and ask them if they tried it - often they didn't :D
    Yes again!

    In previous Hell Pits I have tried, tweaked, re-tuned, worked on strategies, failed, re-tried and finally succeeded. And boy that felt good. A proper adrenaline rush.

    But that was because I could see the light at the end of the tunnel, from Round 1 day 1 I could survive using skill, tactics and maybe a bit of luck now and again.

    It was a close fight, that is the fun part.

    In any MMO or game in general its getting the balance between "nah that was too easy lol yawn" and "thats too hard, aint wasting my time" and hitting the sweet spot in between the two extremes.
  • vastano#2343 vastano Member Posts: 169 Arc User
    regenerde said:

    Yeah, this event is no longer the fun ride it used to be and since I mainly used it to get health stones there's no point this time since I'll be consuming the uses faster than earning them. Just another example of how scaling is a failed waste of resources and worthless design decisions. On the plus side: rejoice! Skipping the event means you can do other things... like try out better and more exciting MMOs without worthless scaling.

    Cryptic likes playing stupid games, they can win stupid prizes.

    I love this. So apt. So relevant. So true.

    Is it the event is harder or is it that the Combat Rework has nerfed some toons?

    Or is it wonky scaling?
    Well, to me it feels like enemies always have Combat Advantage, even when there's not a single enemy behind me, they still hit like trucks, which reminds me of the time when they gave enemies Armor Penetration, that was a mess too, no offense, but i'm not sure why they keep doing the same HAMSTER over and over again, shouldn't at some point "learning from experience" kick in?

    I'd also like to know why enemies can surround the player character within seconds and even seem to adjust their positions during fights, while my bloody companion can't stay on the opposite side of a target, so that i can get CA too?!

    Anyway, it would be nice to know how this whole campaign event continues, and what we can expect from the next parts...
    from what i have seen from cryptic they never learn from experiance whether its good things (bounties in barovia) or bad things like giving mobs perma comb adv
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    Has anyone made it through with a Wizard?
  • kalina311kalina311 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited May 6
    The real main reason to do this event is for the overload enchants rewards you get in later weeks .and is the only thing of "real" value for end gamers.
    so what if you have to "burn" health stones/ life scrolls to get them, when they last 10 combat hours each ,and are +5%-10% OP sources of extra damage accuracy crit awareness etc ..

    Post edited by kalina311 on
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,803 Arc User

    Has anyone made it through with a Wizard?

    Yes, Kalina did, but Kalina is very good.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • nic1985nic1985 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 373 Arc User
    edited May 6

    Has anyone made it through with a Wizard?

    I run all Hell Pits with my CW (Arcanist) and a variety of comps from Air Archon, Xuna, Chicken, Merc, Yojimbo, WWizard, Frost Mimic, etc. Which ever I feel like that day. I rarely/never have to use potions and only on rare occasion when I am not paying attention does my HP goes lower than 50% HP.

    I went mostly defensive, with healing insignia bonuses, and not trying to kill all mobs but wait the timer out.

    -Enter Hell Pit, choose a wall/gate/rock area to hug and have my back to. Wait for mobs to appear.

    -Kill any mobs coming my way, there will be some mobs far away that might not agro to you at all. Leave these mobs alone until the timer runs out.

    -Grab any buffs I see appearing (buffs before I enter with Elixir, SH food, Event food.

    -Wait out the timer, I never kill all the mobs, I leave one or two of the weakest mobs to fight it out with my companion.

    *My rotations is IcyT on tab, Repel, ArcaneT, Shield, daily = ArcaneS, Class Feat = StormSpell/Evocation, Artifacts i've used Sigil OP or DC, Evenomed, Frozen, or Horn of Valhalla.

    Just from observations and something I have to do when it gets harder, to keep moving at the outside perimeters while attacking when there are a lot of mobs, this help interrupt their attack as they try to follow you instead of attacking.
  • oberonsghostoberonsghost Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    Item level please?
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,915 Arc User
    Hell Pit strategy:
    50k IL
    ...
    end of line.
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • aslan3775aslan3775 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 222 Arc User
    regenerde said:

    Hell Pit strategy:
    50k IL
    ...
    end of line.

    It probably also matters how you achieve the 50K IL. Five worthless mount collars will add 5,000, but get you nowhere in the survivability rating. Six rank 15 empowered each add 200, but that will just amount to another wasted 1,200 IL.

    I know I still have a bunch of worthless points in my IL--and for an event like this, it seems to matter more than regular PVE.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 302 Arc User
    Storvell, keep in mind that this was intended to be a casual game, even the cryptic devs had said so. When you go from a game that many players could just one shot groups and didn't really need to kite, to this, people will struggle. Regardless of people being able to finish things while being lower-end, some can't do it. Its like comparing people who do no exp, nightmare runs of rpgs and those who feel they need to level up in rpgs. Until the combat change reaching caps was easy for people, now people have to adjust fully their playstyle.

    Aragon did it with a paladin, many struggling are dps that have to play carefully or can be burst done in 2 seconds. Some classes don't have great ranged AoE, so have to take risks or go very slow. Classes that can block aren't having issues (except killing time). I haven't seen a single fighter (either role) or barb (tank) have issues. Seen I think 1 paladin say he couldn't do it, but have my doubts on that legitimacy as it was being said in a thread about improving paladins.

    Shields stop a lot of CC effects, remember this. In this game there isn't really proper CC breaks and many mobs are immune to being CC'ed. Secondly, there are several sets of week 1, week 2 and week 3 mobs that could end with getting an easier or harder version of Hell pit. Sometimes you're stuck with constant CCs where you really can't do much about it.

    A lot of people are also frustrated, 2 years for this event to try getting a leg mount, all to have everything thrown on its head for the last part which feels like its aimed to get people to spend $ by making things a lot more difficult than it should be.

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,691 Arc User
    edited May 6

    Storvell, keep in mind that this was intended to be a casual game, even the cryptic devs had said so. When you go from a game that many players could just one shot groups and didn't really need to kite, to this, people will struggle.

    I did not now the game WAS intended to be a casual game. When I started in mod 3, it took me 3 days to get through one quest trying all sort of trick to get it passed. Eventually, I found a trick to do so (still needed to execute perfectly) but Cryptic patched that to eliminate that. It was a wizard in level 42.

    If the game you referred to is Hell Pit, it was not that 'casual' in the beginning neither. It was a lot easier though.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 302 Arc User
    I wish I was better at remembering where to find old posts, but neverwinter was intended to be played casually (their reason for content droughts back when I started playing) but as people played more hardcore, wanting more difficulty, people completing the newest module in no time, they had to adjust. One statement they had was about character slots and trying new classes was expected to be enough for casual play along with replaying the modules, this was their intended gameplay loop. Not sure exactly when it had changed, maybe mod 16's overhaul or mod 17's tomm where they said they wanted to try something new.

    Though this part itself wasn't from cryptic, I recall some people claiming cryptic never referred to NW as an mmo until after a certain point. If true, then that may be when things had started to change or just a way of changing their marketing.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 666 Arc User

    Storvell, keep in mind that this was intended to be a casual game, even the cryptic devs had said so. When you go from a game that many players could just one shot groups and didn't really need to kite, to this, people will struggle.

    I did not now the game WAS intended to be a casual game. When I started in mod 3, it took me 3 days to get through one quest trying all sort of trick to get it passed. Eventually, I found a trick to do so (still needed to execute perfectly) but Cryptic patched that to eliminate that. It was a wizard in level 42.

    If the game you referred to is Hell Pit, it was not that 'casual' in the beginning neither. It was a lot easier though.
    I find it hard to tell what the core demographic is right now, after M16 (making it "easier"?) and streamlining the leveling experience and scaling, I got the impression that they want NW to be fast and easy accessible, but it is attracting a different kind of player than the casual-rpg-dnd-person (if there is such a thing, don't kill me) like this. The wallet-warrior "I want to beat tomm how can I get a high IL" kinda player.
    - bye bye -
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,691 Arc User
    edited May 6

    I wish I was better at remembering where to find old posts, but neverwinter was intended to be played casually (their reason for content droughts back when I started playing) but as people played more hardcore, wanting more difficulty, people completing the newest module in no time, they had to adjust. One statement they had was about character slots and trying new classes was expected to be enough for casual play along with replaying the modules, this was their intended gameplay loop. Not sure exactly when it had changed, maybe mod 16's overhaul or mod 17's tomm where they said they wanted to try something new.

    Though this part itself wasn't from cryptic, I recall some people claiming cryptic never referred to NW as an mmo until after a certain point. If true, then that may be when things had started to change or just a way of changing their marketing.

    Different people has different definition of 'casual'. One's casual is another one's hardcore. Neverwinter has been MMORPG since the start. Neverwinter Night (a totally different game) is not.

    An article written in 2010:

    https://kotaku.com/return-to-neverwinter-in-2011-5619535
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 765 Arc User
    I might have some prejudice against Aragon - I did not see too many of his clips, but what I saw... he tends to avoid the "fine print" and therefore probably straightforwardly misleads quite a few new guys.
    But back to the topic - the video with pally doing the hell pit was one big hamster move from him. Like, really - he is fine, many people are not. So, he uploads vid that has no other purpose except telling people "you guys suck"? Really? That is roughly as helpful as when he proved that 52k paladin in BIS DPS gear has no trouble doing solo stuff...

    He could have said:
    If you struggle, there are some possible insignia bonuses that regenerate health.
    If you are under 40k IL, do not look at IL of items, but on special bonuses - and prefer the defensive ones.
    In Vallenhas you can obtain https://neverwinter.fandom.com/wiki/Bone_Harvester_Hood and https://neverwinter.fandom.com/wiki/Shielded_Defender_Vambrace
    For Underdark campaign currency - that can be easily obtained through demo or heroics - buy yourself the boots in the campaign store, if you do not have the undermountain ebonized version, get there a shirt+pants set as well.
    Make sure you use your highest quality companion and have Redemption selected as enhancement power.
    The breastplate from Avernus maps has a good enough health regeneration bonus as well. (if you do do not have the one that regen health on critical)
    As for rings - let me present you some with defensive abilities... and look! The stronghold has some overload enchantments!
    ...

    He could have given an advice, but hey, he had to make a vid "I know you guys struggle, but look, it is easy." With absolutely no content at all. Just drink a lot of potions, that is all his brain could muster.
    There really is a ravine between trying to help and telling people they suck.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 302 Arc User
    I don't know much about him, last video I likely watched was a solo tanking build for tomm early 2020?
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,915 Arc User
    edited May 6
    aslan3775 said:

    regenerde said:

    Hell Pit strategy:
    50k IL
    ...
    end of line.

    It probably also matters how you achieve the 50K IL. Five worthless mount collars will add 5,000, but get you nowhere in the survivability rating. Six rank 15 empowered each add 200, but that will just amount to another wasted 1,200 IL.

    I know I still have a bunch of worthless points in my IL--and for an event like this, it seems to matter more than regular PVE.
    Well, i upgraded some companions to mythic and that did the trick for me - around 3 more weeks until the next Trade Bar Store sale, currently thinking about using that for upgrading more companions to mythic and then be done with it.

    Day 8 plus bonus round were no real problem, i had to use one or two Healing Potions. And that's with 44k IL, no top of the line equipment or artifacts, so it should be smooth sailing for a decently geared character with 50k IL.

    A few more week 1 runs before my 31k IL Fighter is into week 2, but at this point i doubt i'll be able to get through all 5 rounds with him... the scaling in this events is just one hot mess.
    Post edited by regenerde on
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 208 Arc User
    I asked if any wizards have made it through and was told yes, but they were a good player.

    Ouch.

    My warlock with no guild boons and ok gear can make it through.
    Wizard, same level, with guild boons and better gear can’t.
    Too bad all my progress is bound to my Tank and is NOT fun to take in the pit.

    I’m saving my keys and will help my Alliance but I think I’m done with the game for a while.
  • thany#4351 thany Member Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited May 7
    Goodbye than...

    I think I’m done with the game for a while.

    Goodbye then... For a while.
  • empalasempalas Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 783 Arc User
    edited May 7
    Day 8 should not be this hard. This is just stoopid. For me it just comes down to RNG. I get it down to two mobs...then 10 new mobs spawn that are hammering me like a punching bag. There is no fun at all in this. This is the type of content you should remove. Instead you remove fun content. SMH And yes I know its my opinion but judging from many other comments... I'm not the only one.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,803 Arc User

    I asked if any wizards have made it through and was told yes, but they were a good player.

    Ouch.

    Sorry Silente that wasn't meant to sound disrespectful, I meant the player is very good, very experienced, maxed out player with tons of pvp experience. Wizard is an ultra squishy class with relatively poor magnitudes & cooldowns. There's absolutely no way I'd run my CW through hell pit.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • louchristanlouchristan Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited May 8
    I had a DC with 55K IL doing Hell Pit and still die many times since the latest patch. Seems they had made the scaling pretty bad for high IL players. I had tried to go in as a healer with 60% self healing, don't even last through the third round, LOL . Only go in as dps now :) I think they want to make it so difficult so players have to spend real cash to buy the event Buyout so that they can make some money. By the way you can run aound the area in circles and the dozens of mobs can hardly hit you but you still have to kill them all before the game will end, there is no time out if not all the mobs are killed,
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,915 Arc User
    edited May 8
    Well, the "problem" with the buyout is, that's simply not worth buying at all. I mean, even if you pull ZEN from the ZAX, you're better off buying something else, selling that for profit and then buying two or even three legendary account-wide mounts in return. Depending on what you buy/sell you might even be able to top it off with a few legendary mount insignias too.

    And players that would have to buy ZEN with real money... pretty sure most of them are more likely to say "HAMSTER it, i'm going to play something else until this HAMSTER is over." instead.

    They've really mastered the "Let's shoot ourselves into the foot again." skill to perfection.
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • pakatapoespakatapoes Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    They missed the point completely , events should be fun and boost you to keep playing the game.
    This game went from good to sad and with the scaling going into high gear its completely unenjoyable.
    Came back after months of not playing and the game reminded me why I left.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 765 Arc User
    edited May 8
    I think it will end up like the last time - they will compare the participation in the Hell pit with the one in the Harvester of the nightmares. And they will figure out that the Harvester is much more popular, so the Hell pit will be discarded once again.

    Too bad it is not because the event itself is in any way a bad idea. Just... you compare a solo event... of nightmarish difficulty - a difficulty that straight out cut off most of the player-base, that is even set up to actively discourage you from participating on multiple chars... and as well limits you how many times you can get in... with an event that is far easier to solo - while you are allowed to bring a whole party in... plus you are even rewarded for repeated completions.

    But the numbers will speak, so our future lies within fighting harmless sponges in the Harvester. The Hell pit is inferior and it could not be because it is over-tuned and not balanced - and the Harvester is widely popular and it could not be because they accidentally allowed people to participate...

    BTW: I found one nice aspect of the combat rework - it brought the difficulty of the first and the second week in Hell pit much closer to each other.
    Post edited by rikitaki on
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,691 Arc User
    rikitaki said:


    BTW: I found one nice aspect of the combat rework - it brought the difficulty of the first and the second week in Hell pit much closer.

    I guess the bright side is one can give up a week earlier without getting disappointed a week later. :)
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