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Letter from a Veteran Great Weapon Fighter to the Developpers

fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
I've been playing your game since Shadowmantle. I did not count how many modes have changed. Agarthan has adventured for 108 days, 2 hours, 16 minutes, 41 seconds when i type / played .. I always played Great Weapon Fighter. I've had other characters too, but since I couldn't get one-tenth of the GWF's pleasure with them, the time I spent on them could be one percent of the time I spent on Gwf. Playing GWF was a matter of skill and attention at the time. We were not lazy and we used to follow the action, we also had skill sets suitable for this job. Now maybe before leaving this game again, please a developper read this thread, I beg you.

Until the famous mode 16, there have been moments of disappointment. Especially in mod12-13 and 14 there were moments when I felt like a god. Getting into PUG games was no problem for me, as I didn't need a tank or a healer.

Me, Alone in Yester Hill.


Me vs Orcus here:


The links above explain why I felt like a god at the time. I said I had disappointments until the famous mode 16. This disappointment was due to the fact that a class was very advantageous over other classes. So even though I was having a lot of fun, it was upsetting that other dps and tanks that came into the game were complaining about it. Healers would usually be content. But rangers and warlocks thought this was exaggerated. Because why?

As today, Ranger, warlock, or wizard entered the game with the "dps" tag that day. And the fact that a gwf doubled them in damage caused not only a personal sense of failure, but also "anxiety about not being able to contribute enough to the party".

With mod16 you have created a new table in front of us. You know, I'm actually glad at first. Because it was kind of a "balancing" situation. Indomitable Battle Strike was no longer hitting 3 targets if properly aimed. Punishing charge was locking on target like in a mobile platform game, I could not provide combat advantage while i slide behind the target with one of my 3 charges, as before. Putting aside the old damage buff of Battle Fury, it couldn't even restore stamina anymore. We could no longer mark the enemies, we could not defend ourselves with the "Daring shout", which is essential for a melee class (we needed some kind of protection, rogues has stealth, vanguard's have shield, us?) . With a mod change, there was now a crippled, blind and deaf "barbarian" in front of me. However, I was still delighted. These changes were enormous and "must have been considered to balance all classes". I realized with a greater disappointment that this was not the case.

I guess I quit the game 6 times after Mode 16. And every time I miss my GWF and come back. Sure Strike was no longer "absolutely critical" with its last hit. Hah, it's last blow wasn't even "aoe". But after all, at least our "Unstoppable" still remained. I was very afraid that you will take the Unstoppable away, should I not think of such ideas? Anyway, let's get back to our topic;

I'm back in mode 17 with my crippled "Barbarian". Adding a tank feature to it was enough to steal my heart at first. Then, not surprisingly, I saw that it took a year or two before he really became a tank. Some simple feats were not even working. (As of mod20 it works good)

All these changes were a truly painful experience. Those who remember the first Gwf will understand me, now we have something completely different. While I was going to say I got used to it despite everything, I left the game in mod 19 and returned in mod 20. It has only been 3 weeks since I arrived. It must be because of my longing for GWF, I updated my build in just 3 weeks. I currently have more or less the same equipment as endgame dps.

I would like to give you some statistics and explain what I am uncomfortable with. I find it right to do this on the most up-to-date content.

Talking about the Vault of Stars dungeon, I made some calculations for you. You know the Range 'unit is being used. For example Barbarian's Paragon Encounter Axestorm's range is 50'.

The first two zones of VoS where we clear thrash mobs have a range of about 200 '. The area where the first Boss is located has a range of approximately 200 '-250', similar to the range in the zones where the second and third bosses are located.These values may not be accurate.

Speaking of the Range. The range of my Warlock's at-will and encounter powers is 80 '. I think this is the case with other ranged classes.

Now I will list all the range and gap closer features of the Barbarian Blademaster without getting cold.

Bounding slam (At Will, 30 '). This at-will was extremely problematic from the beginning. It was there since I first started the game, it was only in the iron vanguard back then. I really waited so long that you would fix it one day. It lets you down when it should lock onto the target and lunge at it. When you are halfway through, with the heat of battle, you use your other encounters and at-wills, but none of them reach the target. It feels like rubberbanding is happening. I have never been able to use this at-will properly under battlerage, nor under normal circumstances. Because you reach the target as animation, you bounce back when you use any other skill (you realize that you are halfway).It takes an average of 10-15 seconds (often much shorter) for a group of mobs to die on Vos. And if you use this at-will you will regret it because it will cost you at least 1.5 seconds.

Mighty Leap (Encounter 50 ') This encounter can really work if used with the Mightier Leap feat. But for feat to work, the first hop should not hit any target, which is almost impossible to do quickly among crowded mobs. If you try you will lose 2 seconds of guarantee, there is also a chance that you will fail to reach the target. Cooldown: 16,3 seconds

Punishing Charge (Encounter 60 ') This encounter is great! (I'd like to say) But not, yes it has a "control effect", and it works fine with the trample the fallen feat but Cooldown: a whopping 16.3 seconds.

Axestorm (Encounter Paragon 50 ') This encounter's magnitude is too low (400) and its cast time is 2 seconds!

Savage Advange (Daily 82 ') Without this Daily, we won't even reach the target at all, but we can use it every 30 seconds on average and we are using this ability not to do damage, only trying to reach the target and start dealing damage)

My recharge speed is %10, only %2-3 more is attainable.


Why did I get into the subject of Range? Our friends who have played with ranged class all their lives may not understand. As Melee classes, we need to be able to go to the enemy before we can do any damage. Frankly, this situation was so tiring for me that I left the GWF for a few hours and went to my Warlock alt and started leveling missions. I was on duty at Neverdeath Graveyard (where the dragon was killed) and I think I came across a few barbarians who were on the same quest as me. While doing the Grave Rubbing mission, I was attacking mobs from the comfortable 80 'range. The mobs were dying until they caught up with me, while the poor barbarians were trying to catch up and hit the same mobs. The sad part is whenever they reach the mob and prepare to hit (because the mob was moving), most of their swings were wasted.I looked at this situation and laughed a little. Because it was really funny.

Now, the developpers will say(if they ever read this), the Fighters are also melee, they have a shield. Rogues are melee too, they have dodge, Barbarians too have melee, you have sprint too, so use it!

Although I searched it, I could not find it, I also looked for in-game tooltip and looked for an explanation but it is not there. For example, if tanks hit f2 and hover over the guard metter, they will see a statement. But in the barbarians the tooltip says "Your stamina, it is used to perform dodge and sprint maneuvers". Stamina value is not written. Nevertheless, I tested it, I sprinted completely by spending the stamina gauge, and I saw that I could go about 150 'range. Stamina gauge takes about 11-12 seconds to re-fill when completely empty. My stamina regeneration is 52,5% which is a very good rate.

Now, between melee dps, rogues can dodge, Fighters can block with shield, and we can sprint. Rogues have a tremendous advantage: They have ranged at-will. This situation turns the whole equation upside down. Fighters also do not need to run to escape red-zones, as they can prevent damage from red-zones using shields. But the barbarian has to run all the time. He has to run to escape the red-zones, run to get close to the opponent and deal damage, he has to run to revive his fallen friends. Barbarian can use gap closer to get closer to the target. But these gap-closer have an average cooldown of 12 seconds and a battle takes an average of 12 seconds. He can run the map from head to toe by completely unloading Stamina. There he kills a mob and can cover the 60 'range with a gap-closer to kill another mob. Then what? He can walk to reach other mobs. But a encounter takes about 10 seconds, other mobs other than bosses die within 10 seconds.

Barbarian was designed to be "Aoe" dps after all these changes, did I get it wrong? If we are aoe, dps, we always have to run between mobs to use relentless slash, which is our signature ability, but we can only do this every 12 seconds. Until 12 seconds pass, the mobs die and the boss remains. Why did you give us the aoe feature if we stick to the boss from the beginning (which sometimes isnt present on map)

After all this analysis, please let someone tell me where I went wrong and how barbarian, a class labeled as dps, can catch up with others. If some are going to perceive this as playing high on the "paingiver" list, so be it. Why wouldn't I want to be a paingiver, am I not already "labeled dps"? If I don't even get a chance to get on the paingiver list, why am I dps and why would the team want me? Let's put Paingiver aside, how did the developpers expect me to enjoy the game by running around and exhausting myself?

Ranged classes can attack bosses and mobs , who are usually in the middle of the space, in a 200 'range arena without moving at all, with their 80' at-will range.Since their stamina is full, they can easily benefit from the passive perks of many items. They don't think twice about avoiding the Red-Zones. But as a barbarian, I have to spend stamina for all kinds of actions. Before I get to the scene, the rangers would have already figured out half of the work.

Do not think that I am looking for ways to solve this. For example, I did extensive research on how to increase my "stamina regeneration". For this purpose, I bought "pseudodragon" and raised it up to mythic rank. Because it was written "on at will use % 10 chance to gain % 7,5 stamina" as companion equip power. I saw that it doesn't even work! So I really worked hard to break the meta. I thought that; For example, they may want us to keep our stamina high so that the "charged furry" perk on items such as "Upper pact brands of the blaze-bond" works. However, it is not possible to keep my stamina constantly high with the class feature "sprint".

I ask my question again. How do the developpers expect me to both escape from red-zones, run to reach enemies, and move between zones? Where am I lacking and where am I going wrong?

What if "Battle Fury" fills our stamina as it used to be? Because I explained above, the Fighter melee too, but he can stand on the red zone by lifting his shield in the air. Rogue is also melee, but has ranged at-will. But Barbarian? It has to run. If we think in terms of frp logic, should the class with the highest strength not have the highest stamina? I think you should give us some skills to refresh our stamina. That way we can perhaps do something with our talent and ignore our already obvious low damage disadvantage against other classes.
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Comments

  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    Playing GWF was a matter of skill and attention at the time.

    You sure?


    :trollface:
    I liked the diagram very much and it completely reflects the truth. But playing GWF really required attention and skill at that time. Now I can say that "not being able to play GWF" requires skill, attention and patience.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,331 Arc User
    Your description of the issues with gap closing reminds me of my early attempts at playing GWF in pvp, which turned out to be just after a major nerf to the class (the one after the devs played against a top PC team & had a humiliating defeat & blamed the GWF class, so nuked it).

    Every time I went for another player it was "RAAAAAAAAA... "*SPLAT* as I died just as I was closing in. Of course, I was not geared or experienced - but I did a much better job on DC & CW.

    I've suggested before that the Barbarian sprint mechanic should have 2 utilities - the sprint is good for gap closing but not at all useful once actually fighting. My thought was that in melee range it should change to a leap, allowing Barbs to actually get out of red zones in a similar way to most other non-tank classes.

    I agree with your point about the necessity of stamina usage and perhaps just adjusting the cooldown on Punishing Charge to a similar value to the Pally's Relentless Avenger: base cooldown of 12 seconds - so that stamina is used less to get into range (it's what Pallies use it for).

    On stamina sources, maybe gaining stamina from incoming damage when Unstoppable..?

    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD (coming soon)


  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    Your description of the issues with gap closing reminds me of my early attempts at playing GWF in pvp, which turned out to be just after a major nerf to the class (the one after the devs played against a top PC team & had a humiliating defeat & blamed the GWF class, so nuked it).

    Every time I went for another player it was "RAAAAAAAAA... "*SPLAT* as I died just as I was closing in. Of course, I was not geared or experienced - but I did a much better job on DC & CW.

    I've suggested before that the Barbarian sprint mechanic should have 2 utilities - the sprint is good for gap closing but not at all useful once actually fighting. My thought was that in melee range it should change to a leap, allowing Barbs to actually get out of red zones in a similar way to most other non-tank classes.

    I agree with your point about the necessity of stamina usage and perhaps just adjusting the cooldown on Punishing Charge to a similar value to the Pally's Relentless Avenger: base cooldown of 12 seconds - so that stamina is used less to get into range (it's what Pallies use it for).

    On stamina sources, maybe gaining stamina from incoming damage when Unstoppable..?

    Thank you for your comment. If you think about it, there will be more than one way to solve the movement problem, and all these possible methods are exciting.

    Actually, as you suggested, after I created the thread yesterday, I thought the "Battlerage" would give you the amount of stamina lost, just like the Sentinel "Rage And Rally".

    If you ask my personal request, it's usage can be seen in the first video, I want Battle Fury to return. Because Battle Fury could also be activated during the sprint. It had a long cooldown of 18 seconds, but it could be used when moving between mobs, both filling the stamina completely and providing damage buff. I think GWF used to have excessive damage with self-buffs. I can understand this. So remove the damage contribution of Battle Fury altogether, but only restore stamina, I'm even okay with this solution. Or a method like this can be developed, for example, develop a class feature and when we slot it, the battle fury does not provide the damage buff, but the stamina is renewed.

    I personally support increasing stamina re-fill methods. Because as I mentioned at the beginning, Fighters have shields and they can be protected from damage by using their shields in red-zones. In this case, their shields will decrease, in fact, the fighters are also in a problematic situation. But at least they gain "vengeance" as they take damage, which increases their dps. Under the Barbarian battle rage mechanics, it says that as you deal damage, kill enemies, or take damage, rage is earned. However, when damaged, the rage doesn't really increase noticeably. I have a fighter altough I'm really not very experienced with it. But I see that the (shift-key) guard mechanic block damage up to 40% of hit-points. So fighter have multiple solutions to re-fill stamina. They can either increase hitpoints, or completely refresh stamina with "Into the Fray".

    Rogues have both dodge and stealth. Rogues also have a ranged at-will. All these utilities are some kind of survival mechanic, and stamina management.

    Paladin is also melee, but not dps, its role is to be a tank anyway and take some kind of damage.

    Barbarian is also a melee damage dealer, our only survival mechanic is running. As we used to, we cannot fill our stamina with battle fury anymore. We do not have the option of not escaping from red-zones. As I explained before; our mechanics to access mobs are very limited due to cooldowns and inactivable bounding slam. So as you can see, the only resource we can use as survival mechanics or engage mechanics is stamina and our stamina has the same value as that of ranged classes. But ranged dps don't have to run for engagement (they always attack the enemy before us because they have no obligation to move.) They don't have to dodge to approach the enemy, they only use their stamina for red-zones. Besides all this warlock's for example, when they shadow slip their damage taken is reduced greatly. So every class has some kind of survival mechanic, why don't the barbarians have any? I have to run into the middle of all mobs to use the relentless slash. I am already using my stamina to do this. Due to my lightning enchantment and high damage, I immediately generate threat and some mobs start attacking me. Why do I not have any damage reduction methods? Instead of removing Daring Shout completely, what if you made it a little more meaningful by trimming it's Mark (which gave combat advantage) and 10% damage buff, but keeping it's damage resistance contribution...

    If the animation problem of "bounding slam" is solved (for example make it fluid like punishing charge) this can also provide a solution. I don't think this solution would be great because as you know, relentless slash provides 5% damage contribution, and we want to use brash strike for single target. So brash strike and relentless slash will fill all 2 at-will slots. In this case we will have to sacrifice one of them to use Bounding slam. I don't want to talk about the inefficiency of Sure strike. Which was one of the main motivations for me to play the game. I just loved&enjoyed it. But I know America becomes socialist, but neverwinter team doesn't make sure-strike meaningful.

    The mighty leap and the mightier leap work really well, but as I mentioned before, it is almost impossible to use the mighy leap without hitting any mob in fast battles. And it's a pity that we only have this method viable for engagement. So I don't think the developpers want to see barbarians flying here and there. Also, when we activate this feat, we lose the not so fast and relentless flash synergy.

    Another solution might be to add new features to the punishin charge via a feat or class feature. The imagination is unlimited in this regard. But for example, you can give us 3 charges as before. Or make a condition, for example punishing charge can be activated again if a mob dies within 5 seconds or so ...

    I am really curious about the opinions of other barbarians, even other classes, on this subject. Please let's list our suggestions under this thread.

  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,763 Arc User
    Properly utilized Sprint is a dodge. Not a "hurry up and get to the next fight" the way it was always used before.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,193 Arc User
    edited May 2
    greywynd said:

    Properly utilized Sprint is a dodge. Not a "hurry up and get to the next fight" the way it was always used before.

    That is how I use that in a fight, to dodge a big attack. I have been GWF/Barbarian since mod 3. I did not change my style much. My muscle memory pretty much has stayed the same to do the rotation.
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    Properly utilized Sprint is a dodge. Not a "hurry up and get to the next fight" the way it was always used before.

    Please let me explain my opinion:

    Properly utilized Sprint is not a dodge, at least not for any blademaster barbarian.

    Increases your movement speed by 100% and drains your stamina.
    Added Effect: Control Immunity

    For the 1st 1s you are sprinting you gain immunity to most damage. This effect may not occur more than once every 3s. All effects end when sprint is released or stamina is depleted.

    Properly utilized sprint is an immunity to most damage for 1 seconds, by every 3 seconds. Friends who have been playing gwf for a long time will accept it; For a sprint to grant you immune to damage effect, you must use at least 10% of the stamina gauge. So small movements do not provide this effect. Also, the dodge is usually enough to get you out of the large red-floor. Especially frozen, poisened red-floors. Because they cause continuous dot damage. If you consider being immune to them with a short sprint, you would be wrong. You need to run or walk away from them completely as a barbarian. For example, in the first boss Vos, with a double arrow on your head, you may have to run to the edge of the plotform (which is usually the case). In this case you lose 1 second of damage immune '. And mushrooms slow you. In addition to all these, let's not forget the following factor, I have to go to the enemy to hit. This is not just due to rush. This is mandatory in all circumstances. If you think that after I drop the double arrow on the edge of the platform, it is what I should have to walk to the corps spawned in the middle, you are completely wrong.

  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 406 Arc User
    I don't think some of you understand your real problem. I will cite an example, in the expeditions in Undermountain is possible with all the classes I play to dodge the runes that cause you debuffs, except with GWF. In the preview of the rework of the change of combat there was a discursion about the Fort in which this theme quoted by me, in the end we gained Awareness of defensive bonus in the Forte, yet Still i find the mechanics of the Tab / Stamina of GWF horrible compared to the others.

    There are also already here in the forum other topics citing other problems in the class with in the
    rage and a 3-second delay for the stamina regen to start working. Other than that the class has a great damage and is probably only behind the TR which is normal and the HR (unbalanced class compared to the others).
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User

    I don't think some of you understand your real problem. I will cite an example, in the expeditions in Undermountain is possible with all the classes I play to dodge the runes that cause you debuffs, except with GWF. In the preview of the rework of the change of combat there was a discursion about the Fort in which this theme quoted by me, in the end we gained Awareness of defensive bonus in the Forte, yet Still i find the mechanics of the Tab / Stamina of GWF horrible compared to the others.

    There are also already here in the forum other topics citing other problems in the class with in the
    rage and a 3-second delay for the stamina regen to start working. Other than that the class has a great damage and is probably only behind the TR which is normal and the HR (unbalanced class compared to the others).


    Undermountain expeditions is a good example, but those who haven't played GWF for a long time are hard to understand what we mean. With the exception of Warlock and Tank classes, all other classes shift+direction to automatically dodge. This dodge includes a certain distance dash. With gwf and warlock, when we use shift we kinda sprint. If you do this quickly, sometimes your character won't even move or appear to move (in animation), but it bounces back. Because the game does not allow some at-will skills to be skip. Relentless slash for example, if you hit once, you won't be able to run until the second hit animation is complete. So relentless slash locks you in the ground (which is really limiting)

    greywynd said:

    Properly utilized Sprint is a dodge. Not a "hurry up and get to the next fight" the way it was always used before.

    That is how I use that in a fight, to dodge a big attack. I have been GWF/Barbarian since mod 3. I did not change my style much. My muscle memory pretty much has stayed the same to do the rotation.
    However, if my first post is read from start to finish, what I want to mention is essentially our lack of stamina. In any arpg melee classes have some means of gap closing. These methods include running directly, jumping towards the target, jumping, or teleporting. Neverwinter also has some of these, but in the case of Barbarian, these skills are quite limited. And again for the barbarian, the "sprint" is both the gap closing method and the survival method of the barbarian.

    So when Plasticbat says that I use sprint to dodge big attacks during fight, he either knowingly or unknowingly suggests to me:

    In The Infernal Citadel, when the first boss takes off and dashes towards the party and flees to the other part of the map, I will use sprint to escape from the dash, and walk to the other side of the map, of course, the tank will engage right after the boss flying to the other side of the map, all the other ranged classes will have already started doing damage, and I will see if the punishing charge cooldown is over when I have started about a 10-second walk towards the boss.

    In The Infernal Citadel, while the tank is fighting with the second boss, tank will pull the boss into a corner, I will engage with the punishing charge, a huge red-zone will appear under everyone's feet in an average of 10 seconds, while I will try to dodge it with a proper timed sprint, as Greywynd said, but I'll die because my dodge won't be far reaching enough to get out of red-floor, or I'll run out of red-floor using half my stamina gauge to prevent death, during this time, the tank will have taken the boss at least 50 'range from me, and I lose 7-8 seconds while walking towards him (I don't sprint to not spend any stamina, saving them for future dodges). When I finally reach the boss without being caught by any other red along the path, I use my encounters with the most damage within a 2-second period, only to see next big red-floor is appearing beneath everybody, I spend the rest of my stamina completely and run away. Therefore, while I was trying to catch up with the boss, or trying to escape from it, I constantly spent either stamina or encounter power, while range classes instantly dodged and continued to damage the boss. Right now I have neither stamina nor engage mechanics (cooldown). Suddenly, the boss transitioned and imps spawned, imps chained one of party members 50' away from me, it takes 5 seconds to walk against it, but if I don't hide behind a wall in 10 seconds, the whole platform will explode and I will die. Thankfully my encounter cooldown was over and I jumped towards my chained friend. Even getting behind him and providing combat advantage is a problem, because this is how I consumed 10% of my stamina, which had just begun to fill. Luckily my at-will hits critical and i save my friend from chains, I use all of my stamina, 10% of which has just been filled, to run behind the wall.

    I'm starting the new phase with 0 stamina and with a punishing charge on 10 second cooldown. And I will probably try to drop the circular lava on the walls with my stamina, which will be only half full by the time. That way I will not be able to activate the "immune to damage" effect of my sprint for 1 second, because I will be running into the wall with the last oxygen in my lungs.

    This time I wanted to give an example from the infernal citadel. But the life of a blademaster barbarian is full of snapshots that I tried to illustrate above. Unfortunately this is not the case for me and I probably don't know what I have been playing for 7 years.


  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    Since I have been playing only barbarian for years, I was wondering whether I am not able to do this stamina management job. Maybe I was getting old, maybe I just couldn't adapt to the direction the course of the game was turning. I had such dilemmas.

    Tonight I watched the video of a famous streamer playing barbarian. During V.o.s, his stamina was only able to stay over half on boss 2. He spent most of the game with "plug" sounds and "Not enough stamina" messages in red text. He was also using the shirt that gave 5000 power over 75% stamina.

    Then...

    I returned to my rogue. I raised him from level 30 to 53. I saw that both warlock and rogue have a much easier stamina management status than barbarian.

    If I compare Rogue - Assassin to barbarian, it feels like maybe he has 3 times more stamina. When the companion died, I was able to escape from them every time, even though the mobs were chasing me.

    I think this was done deliberately against the barbarians. Maybe there are a lot of barbarians with very good items and someone asked them to press the button and start spending money on new characters.

    Because it's more dramatic to think the opposite, what if it wasn't done on purpose?
  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 292 Arc User
    edited May 5
    Ello @fabricjumper.

    Devoted Cleric was my first ever main class back in mod2 (just a little before Icewind Dale was released "with the biggest map ever!" -remember when they said that lol. It was, too.) but after playing him for I think it was 6 months to a year, I moved to GWF and played him for several years. His name was Azaziel and he was a lot of fun largely because he was so fast and could move around so well. I know exactly what you mean about stamina, it is fundamental to playing this class. You need enough to dash around and be able to do what you need to do without taking too much damage, the class is built sort of like a glass cannon and doesn't have the protection other classes do so their movement is key to playing it well and surviving just by being able to maneuver and get out of danger quickly over and over again then run back up to them fast to continue hitting. That takes stamina.

    I used to have a technique where I would run up to mobs and kite around them in ever smaller and smaller circles and exploiting the fact they just followed me around, and it was sort of like rounding-up sheep in one nice big lump as they condensed into a tighter and tighter bunch trying to follow me while I was circling around them, and I would spiral-inwards and then when they were all tightly packed together I would hit them as one unit and do melee damage to all of them at the same time. Once they were in a lump I would hit them a couple of times and they would all be facing me, then I would dash straight through the middle of them to behind them and do a very fast 180 degree turn to face their backs and hit from behind a few times until they realized I was there and started to turn around to face me and while they were doing that I would again rush right through the center of them all and do a 180 flip and hit them from behind again. I did this over and over and it meant I took far less damage because the mobs were constantly confused and couldn't find me and couldn't get a hit-in, but that took a lot of stamina to be able to achieve and in those days I had just enough to always be able to get to where I needed to be.

    So I understand what you are saying. And as you say, you have to be right up in their faces to even do any damage in the first place, but when those red splats appear you have to get right out of them and then immediately get right back up in their faces again, that takes a lot of stam to do. Back when I was GWF I included having all Dark enchantments in every single utility slot to move as fast as possible to further help me get to places quickly and efficiently, at that time most players were using enchants which dropped goodies or other ones which gave other benefits like XP or gold bonuses, I think I was one of the few (there were others but not that many) who placed so much emphasis on speed, most people didn't think the movement stat was that important, or at least that was my observation at the time, and therefore preferred to have enchants other than Darks in those slots. But to me speed was everything. So with both the movement maxed and the stamina working well, I could move and move fast and be wherever I needed to be. And as I said, GWF didn't have anything to reduce damage like other classes so I also stacked lifesteal as well, so while I was hitting things I was self-healing and kept my HP's high. If I stopped hitting and doing damage my HP's went down very fast.

    On the subject of damage, I know nowadays that GWF (sorry, Barbarian, I don't like the name change personally) can act as a tank and queue as one and has a tanking facet to the class if someone wants it, but my view on GWF and where they should sit on the damage ladder comes from the early days when tanking was just not a thing with this class. Not including tanks, the other classes besides GWF have dual abilities and I think this is important in the scheme of things. CW can not only do great DPS but they can freeze mobs and move them around at will using singularity (depends where you throw it down as to which direction they get pulled so you can more or less move them around to where you want them to be and pull them off more vulnerable players) and have the ability to influence the mobs behaviour in various ways to the benefit of the party, Rangers can also control mobs by rooting and I think other means as well as doing DPS, TR's can vanish as well as doing DPS so they have the ability to interact with mobs without taking intentional aggro away from others, Clerics can heal party members (in the old days buff them as well) as well as doing DPS, SW's can also heal and debuff enemies as well as doing DPS, but GWF can only do ONE thing and that is dish-out damage, they have no other skills, they are created to kill stuff and nothing else.

    So in my view, GWF's should be THE most powerful damage dealers in the game being they do not have dual abilities like most of the other classes. In my mind there are the tanks at one end of the spectrum controlling where the mobs and bosses are looking (so not at the others and therefore not doing damage to the others), the GWF at the other end doing pure damage, and then a bunch of classes in between who do a bunch of other interesting and handy things for the team as well as dealing respectable damage. And I think there has to be some trade-off for those other classes who can do more than just DPS, and that to me should mean they do slightly less damage than the GWF but are useful in various other ways to make up for it. GWF only deals damage so logically they should be the best at it and deal the most. Bash bash bash. That is the class, and also why I eventually moved onto my CW for some variety and versatility.

    But on the topic of stamina, for a GWF/Barb it is just about the most important stat alongside power, crit and crit sev, and fundamental to playing the class well and surviving and I hear what you're saying. And I do hope you have stam regen armor reinforcement jewels forged to all the gear which accepts them (neck, waist and rings) because it helps a bit, I have them all on my Cleric now (as I did with my CW before) so I can dash around more and keep myself out of danger more easily. Doesn't work if you run out of stam. As a GWF/Barb you are just so vulnerable without that ability to move around fast as required, it's a very fast-paced class and needs fully-controllable placement at all times, so it's just not practical to keep running out of stam because it basically $crew$ everything up.

    P.S. I quit quite a few times as well but missed the place and kept coming back, I know your pain.
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User

    Ello @fabricjumper.

    Devoted Cleric was my first ever main class back in mod2 (just a little before Icewind Dale was released "with the biggest map ever!" -remember when they said that lol. It was, too.) but after playing him for I think it was 6 months to a year, I moved to GWF and played him for several years. His name was Azaziel and he was a lot of fun largely because he was so fast and could move around so well. I know exactly what you mean about stamina, it is fundamental to playing this class. You need enough to dash around and be able to do what you need to do without taking too much damage, the class is built sort of like a glass cannon and doesn't have the protection other classes do so their movement is key to playing it well and surviving just by being able to maneuver and get out of danger quickly over and over again then run back up to them fast to continue hitting. That takes stamina.

    I used to have a technique where I would run up to mobs and kite around them in ever smaller and smaller circles and exploiting the fact they just followed me around, and it was sort of like rounding-up sheep in one nice big lump as they condensed into a tighter and tighter bunch trying to follow me while I was circling around them, and I would spiral-inwards and then when they were all tightly packed together I would hit them as one unit and do melee damage to all of them at the same time. Once they were in a lump I would hit them a couple of times and they would all be facing me, then I would dash straight through the middle of them to behind them and do a very fast 180 degree turn to face their backs and hit from behind a few times until they realized I was there and started to turn around to face me and while they were doing that I would again rush right through the center of them all and do a 180 flip and hit them from behind again. I did this over and over and it meant I took far less damage because the mobs were constantly confused and couldn't find me and couldn't get a hit-in, but that took a lot of stamina to be able to achieve and in those days I had just enough to always be able to get to where I needed to be.

    So I understand what you are saying. And as you say, you have to be right up in their faces to even do any damage in the first place, but when those red splats appear you have to get right out of them and then immediately get right back up in their faces again, that takes a lot of stam to do. Back when I was GWF I included having all Dark enchantments in every single utility slot to move as fast as possible to further help me get to places quickly and efficiently, at that time most players were using enchants which dropped goodies or other ones which gave other benefits like XP or gold bonuses, I think I was one of the few (there were others but not that many) who placed so much emphasis on speed, most people didn't think the movement stat was that important, or at least that was my observation at the time, and therefore preferred to have enchants other than Darks in those slots. But to me speed was everything. So with both the movement maxed and the stamina working well, I could move and move fast and be wherever I needed to be. And as I said, GWF didn't have anything to reduce damage like other classes so I also stacked lifesteal as well, so while I was hitting things I was self-healing and kept my HP's high. If I stopped hitting and doing damage my HP's went down very fast.

    On the subject of damage, I know nowadays that GWF (sorry, Barbarian, I don't like the name change personally) can act as a tank and queue as one and has a tanking facet to the class if someone wants it, but my view on GWF and where they should sit on the damage ladder comes from the early days when tanking was just not a thing with this class. Not including tanks, the other classes besides GWF have dual abilities and I think this is important in the scheme of things. CW can not only do great DPS but they can freeze mobs and move them around at will using singularity (depends where you throw it down as to which direction they get pulled so you can more or less move them around to where you want them to be and pull them off more vulnerable players) and have the ability to influence the mobs behaviour in various ways to the benefit of the party, Rangers can also control mobs by rooting and I think other means as well as doing DPS, TR's can vanish as well as doing DPS so they have the ability to interact with mobs without taking intentional aggro away from others, Clerics can heal party members (in the old days buff them as well) as well as doing DPS, SW's can also heal and debuff enemies as well as doing DPS, but GWF can only do ONE thing and that is dish-out damage, they have no other skills, they are created to kill stuff and nothing else.

    So in my view, GWF's should be THE most powerful damage dealers in the game being they do not have dual abilities like most of the other classes. In my mind there are the tanks at one end of the spectrum controlling where the mobs and bosses are looking (so not at the others and therefore not doing damage to the others), the GWF at the other end doing pure damage, and then a bunch of classes in between who do a bunch of other interesting and handy things for the team as well as dealing respectable damage. And I think there has to be some trade-off for those other classes who can do more than just DPS, and that to me should mean they do slightly less damage than the GWF but are useful in various other ways to make up for it. GWF only deals damage so logically they should be the best at it and deal the most. Bash bash bash. That is the class, and also why I eventually moved onto my CW for some variety and versatility.

    But on the topic of stamina, for a GWF/Barb it is just about the most important stat alongside power, crit and crit sev, and fundamental to playing the class well and surviving and I hear what you're saying. And I do hope you have stam regen armor reinforcement jewels forged to all the gear which accepts them (neck, waist and rings) because it helps a bit, I have them all on my Cleric now (as I did with my CW before) so I can dash around more and keep myself out of danger more easily. Doesn't work if you run out of stam. As a GWF/Barb you are just so vulnerable without that ability to move around fast as required, it's a very fast-paced class and needs fully-controllable placement at all times, so it's just not practical to keep running out of stam because it basically $crew$ everything up.

    P.S. I quit quite a few times as well but missed the place and kept coming back, I know your pain.

    I agree with your views from start to finish. I was playing exactly as you described, there are examples of this in the first video I added (although it is mod 15)

    Besides all this, I also think that gwf used to do more damage than necessary. So for example "hunter" should logically do more damage than us. At least this business should be open to competition. Dungeons played hundreds of times in a row are no longer enjoyable if dps won't compete for damage.
    I knew that stamina and movement had a vital value. Actually, elven battle enchantment has been with me since it first came out. But whatever we do in the new paradigm, stamina regeneration or movement speed increses are not as effective as before.
    For example, when I have 55% stamina regen, all my stamina recharges in 13+ seconds with GWF. When I try this with the rogue, I find that having 16% stamina regeneration is enough to fill its entire stamina in 13 seconds. In addition to the recharge speed of the stamina, there is also the issue of starting to fill up late when it is empty. Yes! Barbarian's stamina; It doesn't start to fill up immediately when it's a little empty! (This is the same with warlocks.) It takes about 1 second to start filling up again. Then it starts to increase gradually. This means; As you explained above, our method of flanking the enemy with small dashes doesn't work anymore. In fact, it is no longer possible to make those small dashes regardless of stamina. Because for some reason immediate shift + direction doesnt work. The character seems to be gone first, then comes back a bit.
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    Barbarians, who used to have enough skills and items, had a feature that angered other members of the party. If you have the required "life steal" degree (about 15%), you can go to the mobs by sprinting from the front, use daring shout and hit everything in front of you midnlessly. I have to admit that I did a lot too. Because it was extremely enjoyable. ...Think of cursing tanks or crying wizards behind my back, I saw them all.

    Because most barbarians would jump ahead and die. The rest of the party would also sometimes be happy about it. This is how one of my tank mates explains why he especially hates the barbarians.

    I and some barbarians were not dying either. Because we had lifesteal like a beast. If you also have protection like negaation, or barkshield. Before the mobs killed you, you would kill them by stealing their lives like vampires, and wait for the rest of the party to arrive at the scene. Of course, this was unacceptable. And lifesteal with mod16 has been removed. So what I mean is that the Barbarians can no longer do such a thing, even if they want to, because simply; they die. If we are faced with a situation where the GWF stamina is particularly lowered, this is just one of the proofs that such a measure is not necessary.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,763 Arc User
    Everyone had Lifesteal like a beast. That's why now we don't.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 292 Arc User
    Lifesteal was an awesome stat I loved but I guess they removed it largely because it negated a lot of the reason to have healers. Great result for parties but not so good for solo.
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    Life steal was available in every class, but GWF's aoe was not available in every class. It will be seen from the 10th minute of the first video, we can hit even dozens of enemies at the same time with Relentless slash. I don't know of any other class that can do this with at-will as fast and high damage as gwf. And I am almost sure that life steal was removed due to this feature of GWF.

    I am now sure that almost all of the things I have listed above are correct. Because I played with both rogue and fighter for days. The main reason I chose these classes is that they are also melee. Rogues have ranged at-will as well as abilities that can teleport to the enemy (deft strike) With stealth, the situation is completely changing. and their stamina recharge much faster.

    I didn't know the Fighter had a ranged at-will. And some of his feats increase at-will damage. It's a good thing that the Fighter's stamina goes down. (More than 50% determination means 20% extra damage) He can inflict incredible damage with his At-wills. Bull's charge has a 10 second cooldown ... (which is a great gap closer) and gains 20% movement speed with the Momentum class feature. If cloaked ascendancy weapons weren't that hard to get, I would turn into a fighter.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    Okay, let me give you all an example of a few other games i've been playing since I got bored with NW.

    Magic Legends (yeah, I tried it, and I got bored), and Path of Exile. One game that's worse, and one that's infinitely better, with one "small" problem.

    You know what's the boring part of PoE? After I get turned into paste by a unique enemy, I have to walk all the way back to where I was, just to get destroyed again.

    I have a blink type ability and a sprint thing. Even with all that, I get bored in the walking time.

    Sadly, for barbarians here in NW, I spend 99% of the time behind the group because if I wanna deal damage, I gotta keep my stats up due to the stamina based bonus. But the issue then is, by the time I'm there everything is dead.

    Simple solution - run towards the enemy? Yeah, and then run away because I'm a squishy DPS. Wait, run away? With what stamina?

    Genuinely, barbarians have literally NO advantage over other classes. Barbies and their DPS have taken a similar turn Michael Schumacher has taken a few years back. EVERY class has a ranged at-will ability.

    HAMSTER, even tanking - barbies can't pull aggro without planting their faces in buttocks of oversized, sweaty demons. I don't think eating Orcus' butt would make him happy (unless he's into it, I guess).

    All I'm asking for is something viable. I'm not asking for mod15 barbie. I'm asking for something fun, which just happens to be mod15 barbie, where I could be the guy who breaks a wall down with his head. Painful for both sides, but fun in any case.

    Instead, the breakdown we got was just mental.

    Bis stuff yall
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited May 20

    Okay, let me give you all an example of a few other games i've been playing since I got bored with NW.

    Magic Legends (yeah, I tried it, and I got bored), and Path of Exile. One game that's worse, and one that's infinitely better, with one "small" problem.

    You know what's the boring part of PoE? After I get turned into paste by a unique enemy, I have to walk all the way back to where I was, just to get destroyed again.

    I have a blink type ability and a sprint thing. Even with all that, I get bored in the walking time.

    Sadly, for barbarians here in NW, I spend 99% of the time behind the group because if I wanna deal damage, I gotta keep my stats up due to the stamina based bonus. But the issue then is, by the time I'm there everything is dead.

    Simple solution - run towards the enemy? Yeah, and then run away because I'm a squishy DPS. Wait, run away? With what stamina?

    Genuinely, barbarians have literally NO advantage over other classes. Barbies and their DPS have taken a similar turn Michael Schumacher has taken a few years back. EVERY class has a ranged at-will ability.

    HAMSTER, even tanking - barbies can't pull aggro without planting their faces in buttocks of oversized, sweaty demons. I don't think eating Orcus' butt would make him happy (unless he's into it, I guess).

    All I'm asking for is something viable. I'm not asking for mod15 barbie. I'm asking for something fun, which just happens to be mod15 barbie, where I could be the guy who breaks a wall down with his head. Painful for both sides, but fun in any case.

    Instead, the breakdown we got was just mental.

    Bis stuff yall

    I recommend you use might leap with mighter leap feat. So you dont have to run to get between mobs. I have to suggest this. Because there is no other solution. I do not use items that give stats when the stamina is above 75%. Because, as you mentioned, it is almost impossible to achieve this with barbarians. Instead, I wear a shirt that reduces cooldowns when we do critical damage. (We hit critical by 90%)

    So it was so obvious that there was not any Devs playing with the barbarian, I think they have no idea what is wrong and why the class is so broken for non-casual players. Actually I'm really wondering about this, while a patch is added, are they not going into a dungeon and testing before the server goes live? And in this dungeon (eg Vos) the guy who played the barbarian never complained? Perhaps the appearance and voice of barbarians impress masochistic people?

    I lost all hope and made a fighter. With Fighter, my stamina is usually over 75%. Because I have a ranged at-will, which resets the cooldown of other encounter skills so I can do aoe damage (shield throw.) It is clear that this class was tested by devs before the server went live. There is a solution to all kinds of incidents with fighter. With Elven Battle enchantment, it seems like 5-6 seconds for my shield to be fully charged on fighter.

    So I don't want to blame anyone. Perhaps the superriors of the Devs want the barbarian to remain like this and give orders as such. Just sad.
  • mparcher#3106 mparcher Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    I lost all focus reading this when this was written.


    "My recharge speed is %10, only %2-3 more is attainable."
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User

    I lost all focus reading this when this was written.


    "My recharge speed is %10, only %2-3 more is attainable."

    And can you explain why good sir?

  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 406 Arc User
    It would be interesting that some power could give a stamina regen as the class already had at the time of Battle Fury.

    I suggest that Roar win this feat like the Ranger's Steel Breeze does.

    I do or say this because even though my GWF is from the Gith Race, there is very little stamina or recharge for so much movement that the game proposes.
  • klingon122#5927 klingon122 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    I started as a Great Weapon Fighter

    When I saw I had to

    Stand Still to attack
    Patiently watch my character sit in red zones waiting for attack animations to end instead of quickly being able to move
    Repeatedly take unnecessary combat advantage damage because you can't just quickly take 1 step backward to reposition when mobs swarm you
    Repeatedly stand still, kill the main mob pack, then walk 2 steps forward, stand still and kill all those mobs that separate themselves like 2 steps away from the pack
    Have the camera angle fly all over the place when performing things like leaps/charges

    I quickly changed classes lol
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited May 21

    It would be interesting that some power could give a stamina regen as the class already had at the time of Battle Fury.

    I suggest that Roar win this feat like the Ranger's Steel Breeze does.

    I do or say this because even though my GWF is from the Gith Race, there is very little stamina or recharge for so much movement that the game proposes.

    This is also the best solution in my opinion. Because I know that balancing is a difficult concept. In the current situation in Neverwinter, we cannot say that all classes are perfectly balanced. For example, yesterday I was outdpsed by the warlock, who didn't even have a ribcage yet while I had the best stats I could have, and our target was a huge boss standing in place (in avernus). Frankly, I don't even mind that. So if the designers of this game thought that a warlock should deal more damage per second than a barbarian, then so be it. (actually I don't even think they have any idea about it, anyway). I wish we could at least move and hit something in a dynamic dungeon environment. As Klingon122 perfectly explains, when entering into conflict with enemies, the barbarian player may feel like he is teaching an autistic to read and write.

    Considering that the barbarian feats are outdated, as I suggested before, either develop a feat that will target the gap-closer skills (like punishing charge) and add a cooldown reduction feature along with it, or bring the stamina regeneration feature to the battle fury. In this way, we will not annoy people (wicked smile) by preserving our ability to deal less damage than some lazy classes, and at least we will be able to swing our sword among mobile enemies without thinking about whether or not our weapons hit them. After all, everyone's goal is to enjoy the game, right? Everyone is holding their tools, some like to hold small tools and shoot from afar, others like to hold a huge weapon and hit it close. What is our fault because we liked to come close?



  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User

    I started as a Great Weapon Fighter

    When I saw I had to

    Stand Still to attack
    Patiently watch my character sit in red zones waiting for attack animations to end instead of quickly being able to move
    Repeatedly take unnecessary combat advantage damage because you can't just quickly take 1 step backward to reposition when mobs swarm you
    Repeatedly stand still, kill the main mob pack, then walk 2 steps forward, stand still and kill all those mobs that separate themselves like 2 steps away from the pack
    Have the camera angle fly all over the place when performing things like leaps/charges

    I quickly changed classes lol

    This is the main issue. The clunkiness and basically no AoE damage other than whats right in front of us. We have avalanche of steel but that is WAY too slow. I'd rather have a lower magnitude slam instead of that last daily. I literally never used it because the damage is for some reason delayed by a good 2 seconds. With the 5 secs on AoS, everything is already dead.
  • zakarum#5949 zakarum Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    Friends, here are the lyrics of a tired barbarian. Meet me there at the [email protected] game. From everything I've read, it really seems to me that only those who play the longest with the class realize the problem that becomes the end game. As I've said in other reviews, all barbarian damage is based on Stamina+Battlerage+At-will. Our encounters only serve to fill our rage bar (and God knows how long it takes even after 3 encounters). As said by a friend up there, much of the barbarian's gameplay is based on melee movement. Most epic dungeons are long and long, our approach depends solely on stamina (a paladin has more mov.speed than us). Is Overpenetration (I could be mistaken) is a feat that asks for too much and gives too little, 2 stats capped for 5% more damage? After 50K IL you have a fever to put the ratings on the ideal. Passives are others that were forgotten by the update, those that increase Rage are really horrible, and those that increase your damage are modest. Steel Blitz is irremovable. If they criticize the barbarian for having "raw" gameplay, they should at least acknowledge that in the class's only strength it is completely out of step with the ranged class.
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited June 10

    Friends, here are the lyrics of a tired barbarian. Meet me there at the [email protected] game. From everything I've read, it really seems to me that only those who play the longest with the class realize the problem that becomes the end game. As I've said in other reviews, all barbarian damage is based on Stamina+Battlerage+At-will. Our encounters only serve to fill our rage bar (and God knows how long it takes even after 3 encounters). As said by a friend up there, much of the barbarian's gameplay is based on melee movement. Most epic dungeons are long and long, our approach depends solely on stamina (a paladin has more mov.speed than us). Is Overpenetration (I could be mistaken) is a feat that asks for too much and gives too little, 2 stats capped for 5% more damage? After 50K IL you have a fever to put the ratings on the ideal. Passives are others that were forgotten by the update, those that increase Rage are really horrible, and those that increase your damage are modest. Steel Blitz is irremovable. If they criticize the barbarian for having "raw" gameplay, they should at least acknowledge that in the class's only strength it is completely out of step with the ranged class.

    I think you should give up the barbarian. Because game makers have already given up on him. There is a huge elephant in the room and no developer sees... They have an awkward silence. Either be one of the barbarians who jump between mobs 5 seconds before the tank and die, even after death looking at the paingiver list. Or, play it as a tank.

    It is not a fault wanting to cause damage, and it is not a crime to do the most damage. But seeing the desire in barbarians, the developer who wants to prevent it by nerfing his at-will damage-lifesteal ability & ability to move, offers the only option for him to enter the paingiver list : To jump among the creatures early while hoping healer will be able to heal his bottom, hit as many as he can and die. This is disgusting, especially for tanks. Because this teenage barbarian turns and gets angry at the tank. Because he's crazy, how can he spend that much zen and not do enough damage. I'm sorry I just encountered a blademaster from one of the "extremely elite and super-skilled alliance" as a tank. He was jumping between mobs like a grasshopper and dying, then using res scroll. Still, this example gave me an idea of the root of the problem. The man wants to be the best, but he can't? Because the game neither coded enough damage nor enough means of sustaining hitpoints to the toy he's playing with.

    How painful.
  • zakarum#5949 zakarum Member Posts: 8 Arc User

    Friends, here are the lyrics of a tired barbarian. Meet me there at the [email protected] game. From everything I've read, it really seems to me that only those who play the longest with the class realize the problem that becomes the end game. As I've said in other reviews, all barbarian damage is based on Stamina+Battlerage+At-will. Our encounters only serve to fill our rage bar (and God knows how long it takes even after 3 encounters). As said by a friend up there, much of the barbarian's gameplay is based on melee movement. Most epic dungeons are long and long, our approach depends solely on stamina (a paladin has more mov.speed than us). Is Overpenetration (I could be mistaken) is a feat that asks for too much and gives too little, 2 stats capped for 5% more damage? After 50K IL you have a fever to put the ratings on the ideal. Passives are others that were forgotten by the update, those that increase Rage are really horrible, and those that increase your damage are modest. Steel Blitz is irremovable. If they criticize the barbarian for having "raw" gameplay, they should at least acknowledge that in the class's only strength it is completely out of step with the ranged class.

    I think you should give up the barbarian. Because game makers have already given up on him. There is a huge elephant in the room and no developer sees... They have an awkward silence. Either be one of the barbarians who jump between mobs 5 seconds before the tank and die, even after death looking at the paingiver list. Or, play it as a tank.

    It is not a fault wanting to cause damage, and it is not a crime to do the most damage. But seeing the desire in barbarians, the developer who wants to prevent it by nerfing his at-will damage-lifesteal ability & ability to move, offers the only option for him to enter the paingiver list : To jump among the creatures early while hoping healer will be able to heal his bottom, hit as many as he can and die. This is disgusting, especially for tanks. Because this teenage barbarian turns and gets angry at the tank. Because he's crazy, how can he spend that much zen and not do enough damage. I'm sorry I just encountered a blademaster from one of the "extremely elite and super-skilled alliance" as a tank. He was jumping between mobs like a grasshopper and dying, then using res scroll. Still, this example gave me an idea of the root of the problem. The man wants to be the best, but he can't? Because the game neither coded enough damage nor enough means of sustaining hitpoints to the toy he's playing with.

    How painful.
    Man, I seriously thought about dropping out and moving on to another class. The thing is, I'm an old D&D player, Barbarian is my favorite, and it took me a ton of hours and Zen to get to my 54k IL. It's agonizing just watching the other DPs in a dungeon doing the work. You test, change, build a build to optimize but it's just AD expense.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 406 Arc User


    This is a video of a Hero who is a Barbarian in Dota 2, while we GWF only get the Barbarian Title. For comparison, we're more like a Juggernaut than a Troll Warlord.

    Switching the XP gain boon to movement may ease our suffering a little, but I will continue to say that I play GWF, because that's what we are!
  • zakarum#5949 zakarum Member Posts: 8 Arc User



    This is a video of a Hero who is a Barbarian in Dota 2, while we GWF only get the Barbarian Title. For comparison, we're more like a Juggernaut than a Troll Warlord.

    Switching the XP gain boon to movement may ease our suffering a little, but I will continue to say that I play GWF, because that's what we are!

    If I were to compare, I would say that my view of the barbarian is more like Huskar. Jumping on enemies' necks, mechanics with loss of life, punitive when close to death. A real berserker.
    Except at-will (Sure Strike R.I.P) and Steel Blitz, nothing in the class currently makes sense.
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited June 12



    This is a video of a Hero who is a Barbarian in Dota 2, while we GWF only get the Barbarian Title. For comparison, we're more like a Juggernaut than a Troll Warlord.

    Switching the XP gain boon to movement may ease our suffering a little, but I will continue to say that I play GWF, because that's what we are!

    If I were to compare, I would say that my view of the barbarian is more like Huskar. Jumping on enemies' necks, mechanics with loss of life, punitive when close to death. A real berserker.
    Except at-will (Sure Strike R.I.P) and Steel Blitz, nothing in the class currently makes sense.
    Man, I'm not going to philosophize about it. But I always thought that playing melee in games like action rpg or moba is related to one's character. Now I'm leaving GWF (necessarily) and playing Assasin as dps. Yes, Assassin is a fun class in its own way. But it does not give the pleasure of getting close and killing the enemies with only arm-power. So those of us who like to play this class are somehow accustomed to positioning themselves carefully and dealing damage to multiple enemies at once. Instead of taking a strategic approach with Encounters, we like to be some sort of high-damage off-tank using encounters to buff oneself. In the meantime, we also like to take damage. Actually, the reason I played newerwinter was because I found it very clever to increase rage metter as I take damage. Because, as I said, I think it reflects my character. So, although the game has an unrealistic and fantastic background, logically, someone who carries a huge weapon with their hands will want to swing it. He will expend energy with each swing and shout with determination. That scream becomes the encounter power. He will run and get tired, he will shout again as he collects his breath. And this scream becomes the encounter power. He will find himself among ten enemies and will shout by challenging them. And this scream becomes the encounter power which toughens him. So on the battlefield, there is always someone like that in front of friends shooting arrows behind. Does not anyone get inspiration from the Battle of Stamford Bridge too? So if really needed; I wish they'd keep GWF damage low but increase his mobility and provide solutions to increase it's defense. So that we can create opportunities for ourselves to wreak havoc on the battlefield and catch up with others.

    The sad thing is that they pruned this great mechanic to fit the bigger picture of the game. I've never written such a long post on any gaming forum in my life. I really hope that one day they will understand what we mean and at least return to a mechanic that reflects the true Gwf spirit, where we can compete with other classes. I understand how difficult it is to present everything in a great balance in an environment where the action is very fast and there are many variables. But gwf must be mobile, period. Gwf should have meaningful encounters to buff at-will damage, period. Gwf is not a strategist; his problem is not to accumulate action points and intervene when necessary, this is the assasin's job. Gwf must be fighting hand to hand all the time.
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