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Tank's defense formula - a small modification to make tanking more relevant

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  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited March 21

    The reality behind the disagreement is, that on the one side you have people who, for the most part, believe tanking should be a passive part of gameplay. Where they believe that you should not have to play the game at all and your stats alone should make you able to survive anything. The other side believes that tanking should be an active part of gameplay. Whether you survive or not should rest on player skill. Which abilities you use, when you use them, how you position yourself should be the factors that determine whether or not you are capable of tanking. This right here is the heart of the disagreement.

    Stating that tanks should be able to tank by just having the stats they have is like saying that DPS should have auras that they slot into every available place in their power tray and the only thing that determines whether or not they pass a dps check is the stats they have. Right now DPS gameplay is very nearly like this for almost every class, which is one of the reasons (in my opinion) why right now, the game is so dull to play. There is almost no active component to any part of gameplay, the outcome of almost everything rests solely on your gear.


    Defenders' classes active abilities cannot perform well in the current combat environment;
    The reason is -as encounters- have an ICD and an uptime. So to rightfully choose the best time to use them and so on.
    Now adds hit too hard and way too often. Combined with the new defense formula the Defender will not have the hp to use the boosting encounters hen he should be;
    He will be dead long before that.


    Let's take an example that is most accesible due to low IL reqs; LOMM.
    The average 25k IL Defender parted with the average 25k IL Healer will have a bad gameplay experience managing the ads there.
    I dont say that is cannot be done; I say it cannot be done in the context of an average player.
    That means gear for a 30k Il and gameplay experience of a year or less.
    50k toons that scale their IL down manned by 7 year old experienced veterans will succeed. But we are not talking about these.

    Also tank classes do not have meaningfull and really usefull DR synergies. At least vanguard that I play.
    A daily every 35-45 secs is not a synergy.And so on.




    Post edited by hypervoreian on
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    Also a general review of the adds hitting abilities is required;
    some of them I suspect have not their magnitudes adjusted after combat changes.

    Fact is adds hit too hard.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,903 Arc User
    edited March 21
    @hypervoreian Do you not think that the biggest tanking issue Pallys have atm is in inability to effectively use their tab mechanic?

    Would you agree that if we were able to rely on it as a dr and/or buff resource without killing divinity based encounters then us pally mains would find ourselves getting that 'flow' back which makes the class interesting and that fixing this would be a huge help?

    Janne had not only agreed with this but was discussing ideas on what kind of synergistic changes would be effective, interesting but not unbalanced. It's not fair to be making accusations against people who are actively trying to help. Discussions are more able to reach a useful consensus if we treat each other with respect.

    I agreed with some of your points (on the long post) such as suggesting the capability difference between a tank & a dps is now narrower in defensive terms and that as they've re-positioned boss dps to compensate, it makes it easier to form tankless runs - and that the only way to counter this is to make bosses hit harder but also make tanks better able to take those increased hits.

    However, when we move from talking about mechanics and start talking about the personalities of those that disagree with us, the discussion devolves into something that guarantees no positive outcome.
    Post edited by armadeonx on
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  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 912 Arc User
    edited March 21
    @damnacious

    “one where they agree that the damage multiplayer (sic) (should read "multiplier", but some people experience difficulty with English as a second language)”

    Comments like these are just as constructive as your obvious lack of understanding of the system and FAR too long posts that contain no information at all, keep your racism to yourself.
    Post edited by wilbur626 on
    Elite Whaleboy
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited March 21
    armadeonx said:

    @hypervoreian Do you not think that the biggest tanking issue Pallys have atm is in inability to effectively use their tab mechanic?

    Would you agree that if we were able to rely on it as a dr and/or buff resource without killing divinity based encounters then us pally mains would find ourselves getting that 'flow' back which makes the class interesting and that fixing this would be a huge help?

    Janne had not only agreed with this but was discussing ideas on what kind of synergistic changes would be effective, interesting but not unbalanced. It's not fair to be making accusations against people who are actively trying to help. Discussions are more able to reach a useful consensus if we treat each other with respect.

    I agreed with some of your points (on the long post) such as suggesting the capability difference between a tank & a dps is now narrower in defensive terms and that as they've re-positioned boss dps to compensate, it makes it easier to form tankless runs - and that the only way to counter this is to make bosses hit harder but also make tanks better able to take those increased hits.

    However, when we move from talking about mechanics and start talking about the personalities of those that disagree with us, the discussion devolves into something that guarantees no positive outcome.

    Goodmorning @armadeonx

    While I agree that Justicar class would be better , there are other two classes as defenders in NW. Vanguards and Sentinels.
    So a solution must apply to all of them and a fix. The spesific player that you mentioned proposed this .It is good but there are two other classes that need adjustment.

    I never mentioned the spesific player I did mentioned others. I was the target of bitter comments but I chosen not to respond cause the thread would be derailed and I think the thread is on track to gain the attention of the devs and the problem to be spotted and to get to spotlight.

    I mentioned others and I would do it again if need to be; Not out of anger or vengeance or I dont know what; But cause they were awfully wrong in the past while in general they are good guys and players. What I wanted to show is that an experienced player can get wrong impressions. And others blindly to follow his. That is all. It does not take time wrong impressions to become from a snowball to an avalanche.It just takes a push.

    Also in general ,and there is a point which I differ from some others , I will not hesitate to clash in a debate even with a friend if I think he is wrong. The views of a man should not weighted versus his interests; If something is wrong it is wrong no matter who supports it.
    Be friend or be in good terms with someone should not be a criteria what to support or not; Only the truth.

    ------------

    To the matter at hand and to this excellent thread , we must continue to ask for survivability buffs.
    Defender classes cause of low number of players and subsequent low market power have not received the attention they should and ,as content became more challenging, they were left behind.

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 912 Arc User
    > @hypervoreian said:
    > Also tank classes do not have meaningfull and really usefull DR synergies. At least vanguard that I play.
    > A daily every 35-45 secs is not a synergy.And so on.

    Vanguard has Iron Warrior.
    Vanguard has the feat Combat Balance.
    Vanguard has +15% awareness and +10% crit avoid on TAB.
    Vanguard has +10% crit avoid on shift.
    Vanguard has the 2 most powerful +DR dailies.

    If anything, the Vanguard should be adjusted to be in line with Paladins and Barbarians.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User


    Defenders' classes active abilities cannot perform well in the current combat environment;
    The reason is -as encounters- have an ICD and an uptime. So to rightfully choose the best time to use them and so on.
    Now adds hit too hard and way too often. Combined with the new defense formula the Defender will not have the hp to use the boosting encounters hen he should be;
    He will be dead long before that.


    Let's take an example that is most accesible due to low IL reqs; LOMM.
    The average 25k IL Defender parted with the average 25k IL Healer will have a bad gameplay experience managing the ads there.
    I dont say that is cannot be done; I say it cannot be done in the context of an average player.
    That means gear for a 30k Il and gameplay experience of a year or less.
    50k toons that scale their IL down manned by 7 year old experienced veterans will succeed. But we are not talking about these.

    Also tank classes do not have meaningfull and really usefull DR synergies. At least vanguard that I play.
    A daily every 35-45 secs is not a synergy.And so on.

    The fact of the matter is, the current stat curve can work just fine and indeed, it was better than the old system because it is less responsive to small changes and thus allows for more nuanced adjustments. In the old system if you raised the cap from 80 to 90%, you halved the incoming damage, now by doing so you reduce it by a much smaller amount. This allows for more graduated balance changes.

    The problems that exist right now have nothing to do with the stat system, they have to do with the way the classes are built. Its a problem that in my opinion, every single class has right now, be it tank, healer or dps. Feats and powers lack synergy, resulting in gameplay which requires absolutely 0 skill. Here is an example on Wizard.
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/666779963470512128/698669424189636658/VID_20200412_020018.mp4

    This was recorded by a friend of mine during m18 but since then nothing has been adjusted to make the gameplay more compelling, indeed if anything it has become worse since then. Wizard is not the only class like this, they all are.

    Sure, DPS have more bonuses on items than supports, but those bonuses are dull and uninteresting. I would rather they removed and tanks and dps are on a similar ground, then new bonuses are created that actually change gameplay, then tanks are put in the same position as DPS.

    The problems we are faced with and should be striving to get fixed have nothing to do with the stats and everything to do with the gameplay, a problem which is sorely needing to be addressed.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited March 21

    sentences with a lot of synonyms..

    It's nice to see the amusement, it's also amusing to see how some people can only go to personal attacks and claim that disagreement with them is invalid by lack of that or that, but they neither provide arguments or able to counter arguments.

    In the argument that ToMM was not doable after the rework due to tanks not being able to tank, I've proved that not only it's doable, it was doable without significant adjustment. What did happen is that most others, except the tanks could die, especially to crit hypothermia (it doesn't cause a wipe but annoying). Hence it's not a tank ehp problem but overall damage problem that came to be due to the adjustment of a damage multiplier to compensate for the earlier defense function (and in the case of hypo, how crit works).

    To not derail any further, I'll just add only one thing, it's pathetic when one can't even get the personal attack factually correct. English is my third language, not second.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,903 Arc User
    The game was more interesting with the old feats and boons system, for sure. I'm not sure Cryptic are up for the task of another rework though - every time they've done one of late, they've tended toward bland simplification (possibly due to time and financial limitations) so appear to have gone for the simpler solutions.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 912 Arc User
    > @armadeonx said:
    > The game was more interesting with the old feats and boons system, for sure. I'm not sure Cryptic are up for the task of another rework though - every time they've done one of late, they've tended toward bland simplification (possibly due to time and financial limitations) so appear to have gone for the simpler solutions.

    I think the new ratings system opens up for far more diversity in itemization. Leave system as it is, add items that directly affect powers/playstyle instead of going for the dull +X to rating/% stuff.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • damnaciousdamnacious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited March 21
    wilbur626 said:


    Vanguard has Iron Warrior.
    Vanguard has the feat Combat Balance.
    Vanguard has +15% awareness and +10% crit avoid on TAB.
    Vanguard has +10% crit avoid on shift.
    Vanguard has the 2 most powerful +DR dailies.
    If anything, the Vanguard should be adjusted to be in line with Paladins and Barbarians.

    These are all wonderful, yet they are not static, but temporary. Not all of these are available to players of all levels, and not all of these are able to be used simultaneously.

    To clarify, Vanguard only has one Daily which provides actual direct +DR - Phalanx.

    Bladed Rampart, while providing +Defense, it is not actually the same as providing +DR, as they are different with different caps. For example, if a player is already at the Defense cap, then there should be no increase to DR when using Bladed Rampart.

  • damnaciousdamnacious Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 348 Arc User

    The problems we are faced with and should be striving to get fixed have nothing to do with the stats and everything to do with the gameplay, a problem which is sorely needing to be addressed.

    While this may be true to some extent, stats influence and restrict game play. As an over-simplification, previously there were tanks who preferred to run into a mob and slaughter them on the run to the next mob. Then there were tanks who would run straight through those mobs and bunch them all up, while other tanks preferred to take one mob at a time, and use every tanking mechanic possible for a 'clean' run.

    I'm not describing this as a means to argue that the game needs to be changed to support these play styles now, but simply as a means of illustrating that, to an extent, stats do influence and restrict play styles.

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 912 Arc User
    @damnacious

    «providing +Defense, it is not actually the same as providing +DR, as they are different with different caps»

    Can you please explain the difference between damage resistance from defense and damage resistance ?

    Also, what is the cap to damage resistance?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited March 22

    The problems we are faced with and should be striving to get fixed have nothing to do with the stats and everything to do with the gameplay, a problem which is sorely needing to be addressed.

    While this may be true to some extent, stats influence and restrict game play. As an over-simplification, previously there were tanks who preferred to run into a mob and slaughter them on the run to the next mob. Then there were tanks who would run straight through those mobs and bunch them all up, while other tanks preferred to take one mob at a time, and use every tanking mechanic possible for a 'clean' run.

    I'm not describing this as a means to argue that the game needs to be changed to support these play styles now, but simply as a means of illustrating that, to an extent, stats do influence and restrict play styles.

    The only build diversity offered by the old stats system is the build diversity of apathy. It is not a good form of build diversity, because by apathy I mean, you can build and play whatever you like because the game is so easy that no choice you make matters at all. Your build is not working as a result of you being clever about your choices, your build is working because any build you would make would work.

    The current system does have the potential to allow for some build diversity, provided it is built upon correctly. See it as a foundation for a house. If proper item bonuses are added and relevant changes are made to powers and feats, the system has a chance.
  • raziel2004#7353 raziel2004 Member Posts: 88 Arc User
    I miss burnadin n engine inspiration... Such unique boon systems. Now just plain boring...
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    Wow 8 pages.

    What’s amusing is that Tanks are mostly irrelevant in the majority of content. All DPS runs are going fine and you only “need” a Tank for Random Ques and Trials. For the AD.

    But running multiple Ques, the DPS run ahead and kill everything. Even when I had Agro on The T3 Hunt, the mechanic is worthless, he turns and goes after everything and wanders while I’m still holding aggro.

    It’s boring. As a Tank we buffed, held aggro and supported the group. Now it’s catch up to the dead bodies and collect a chest. Unless they aggro all the mobs, then it’s my fault they die and I get lectured on how to play my character.
    Sorry pal, you spawn 6 scorpions with Trobriand that’s all you.

    I’m not sure what the answer is at this point. And this thread certainly has lost the plot.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 492 Arc User
    There are as many possibilities and variations in gameplay on a system that is balanced as I've never seen before. The real problem is the lack of understanding of the game's content. I went into the Janne + Rainner website to see the builds of the classes I play, and there are several different builds. In the GF Tank section I was amazed at Wilbur's new build, it's a dream for any tank to have those statuses. My build is the one that has the lowest score and even then it's going to be the build I'm going to follow, because it's a build I did from my perspective of a tank that was formerly a Tactical Buff, and was adapting to be a viable and good alt to play. To make it a comparison the build of Wilbur reminded me once while I was farming in Omu and came across several gorillas attacking a player, I promptly went to help him and this told me he did not need help, he told me it was immortal and nothing in the game had damage to kill him, I recorded his nick until today "Victim of Chult" , I remember friends commenting on how he was the best tank in the game. That's the prospect of some, being immortal, in the build of wilbur he should not even need a shield,is perfection for someone who just wants to tank. Already in my view that I came from a buff to Tank is that I need to be as I was, now that the difference is that my priority is tank, buff and give damage, even if little compared to a DPS end game, but close to a player with no experience since I encounter a lot of these in the random queue. In the end, it's all the way you filled the game, at the time there were many who called themselves tactical buff, but who were DPS running like buff and forgot that this role was what started the mobs and kept the aggro for some time and I saw many died for not having the balance that was needed.
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