> @maxzius#3795 said: > > @wilbur626 said: > > > @maxzius#3795 said: > > > c'mon... you even quoted what I said. > > > > > > I literally said Crit Avoid doesn't matter unless the mob actually crits on you. So... there's your answer, I guess. > > > > > > To take it further, yes, tanks take even more damage 50% of the time. Unless the mob is dead because the tank can actually help the dps kill it. Then the tank takes 0 damage from that mob. So up to you, I guess... either take more damage from that next hit or never even take that next hit. > > > > How does this kill or be killed strategy work for you in Zariel? > > Why would you think that 98% of content would include Zariel?
I find it very hard to follow your logic.
Are you saying that you are building your tank in a way that will exclude it from endgame content by focusing on offensive stats because you are taking too much damage ?
When you stated that there is “ no reason to spec full defense for 98% of the content”, I thought you meant the stat “defense”.
I would still love to see the math that you use to come to your conclusions, as I like to study actual calculations for better understanding of the combat system.
Whats going on ? what is real you don't need tank in 98% of content or tanks need more defense for 98% of content that healer can tank. For solo content if they need damage buff sure but you need to spec full dps gear companion enchants and lose the defense you have , you cant ask to keep tankiness and get more dps game will be broken . you cant use tank gear on dps and expect to kill adds fast as full dps gear. In party content tho tank need keep adds in check can even do 0 damage no one care is dps job to kill adds. when you chose to play tank you chose bc you want to tank get the heat and all be in your hands where adds and the pace of dungeon will go, if you want to do damage play dps. All here writing for new players and know what they want new players don't come here anyway they play the game and are having fun, if game is hard is even more fun to play ,like was this game for us when it started was a hard fun game they got rid of both fun and hard part. Only came back with tomm and zariel the hard and fun part. All people that come here and want something are not new players are players that cant adapt to the new system , game moves you need to prepare for that, listen to people that know the new system is different game that was before mod 16 or mod 19 we have new system.
> > > I literally said Crit Avoid doesn't matter unless the mob actually crits on you. So... there's your answer, I guess.
> > >
> > > To take it further, yes, tanks take even more damage 50% of the time. Unless the mob is dead because the tank can actually help the dps kill it. Then the tank takes 0 damage from that mob. So up to you, I guess... either take more damage from that next hit or never even take that next hit.
> >
> > How does this kill or be killed strategy work for you in Zariel?
>
> Why would you think that 98% of content would include Zariel?
I find it very hard to follow your logic.
Are you saying that you are building your tank in a way that will exclude it from endgame content by focusing on offensive stats because you are taking too much damage ?
When you stated that there is “ no reason to spec full defense for 98% of the content”, I thought you meant the stat “defense”.
I would still love to see the math that you use to come to your conclusions, as I like to study actual calculations for better understanding of the combat system.
Ok, lets start this over as I have not been clear and things are confused.
I have 2 builds for group content. We'll call one dps and one defense (not the stat, the stat defense is always near cap except in my solo build). The first build, the dps build, I use in almost all content. I use this build because I can both tank and help the dps kill things. I don't need Deflect or Crit Avoid in most content so I boost my offense stats in order to help the group. This is great for PUGs and when you end up with new dps players to help them get through content. As a side note - very rarely I'll end up with 2/3 good dps and a new healer. In that case I might switch out to my full defense build in order to help the healer if they are struggling. I'm at work so I can't take a screenshot, but here's a image of the build from Rainer's Character Builder in combat with Protector on (note that the Defense Rating is higher in the image because Rainer is in the middle of updating the Boots of the Herald on his builder and they are still showing as 5000 rating rather than 5 percent, but the percent is correct overall - this matters because I use the insignia powers Protector's Comraderie (1k Defense/Crit Sev - stacks are easy to keep up) and Calvary's Warning (2k all stats for 10 sec) and neither show up in the builder:
My second group build I use for the tougher content. This is where tanks could use some more defensive equipment choices, in my opinion. It would be nice to be able to choose more Crit Sev or more Crit Avoid if that's what someone would like to do. As it stands now, Paladins are the only tank class where going Deflect makes any sense for a full Defensive build due to getting Defl Sev from Forte. An image of that build with Protector on and the same notes from the other about Boots of the Herald (Defense rating showing 5k too high and, in this case, the Defense % is actually showing low. I also use both of the same insignia powers:
The problem, and it's been stated before, is that there is no real middle ground for difficulty. It's either pretty easy to tank (and in that case I use my dps group build to help) or it's incredibly difficult to new tanks because we get absolutely hammered, now, and there's no real difference in damage taken between a DPS character or a tank character. I'm with both zimxero and mentinmindmaker (very beginning of this thread) in adding some type of damage resistance if using a tank loadout. It helps the new players learn to tank and doesn't affect us in the easier content as, in my opinion, we should already spec offense to help out there.
The only thing confusing me is that you are referring to “pure math” that is telling you to distribute stats the way that you do. If you could show this math, it would be easier to understand what you are trying to say.
The only thing confusing me is that you are referring to “pure math” that is telling you to distribute stats the way that you do. If you could show this math, it would be easier to understand what you are trying to say.
How about we do it this way since I just watched Rainer's video and he came to the same conclusion as me with regard to Crit Avoid and Deflect. He's telling people to dump everything else into HP, though. I disagree, with the caveat that my dps build isn't for the high-end dungeons.
So a question for you. Disregarding the high-end dungeons, you have your Defense and Awareness capped and 900k-ish HP. What else would you do with your extra stats?
The only thing confusing me is that you are referring to “pure math” that is telling you to distribute stats the way that you do. If you could show this math, it would be easier to understand what you are trying to say.
How about we do it this way since I just watched Rainer's video and he came to the same conclusion as me with regard to Crit Avoid and Deflect. He's telling people to dump everything else into HP, though. I disagree, with the caveat that my dps build isn't for the high-end dungeons.
So a question for you. Disregarding the high-end dungeons, you have your Defense and Awareness capped and 900k-ish HP. What else would you do with your extra stats?
I am extremely aware of Rainers videos and Janne's documentation of game mechanics/calculations. I just find it very weird that you tell Janne to "Just keep following the videos that tell you what to do because that's easier than doing math." and refer to Rainers videos instead of taking your time to explain the math behind your decisions.
I have posted several builds online that go into detail about what i do when building my toons, you should look them up for answer to your question.
The only thing confusing me is that you are referring to “pure math” that is telling you to distribute stats the way that you do. If you could show this math, it would be easier to understand what you are trying to say.
How about we do it this way since I just watched Rainer's video and he came to the same conclusion as me with regard to Crit Avoid and Deflect. He's telling people to dump everything else into HP, though. I disagree, with the caveat that my dps build isn't for the high-end dungeons.
So a question for you. Disregarding the high-end dungeons, you have your Defense and Awareness capped and 900k-ish HP. What else would you do with your extra stats?
I am extremely aware of Rainers videos and Janne's documentation of game mechanics/calculations. I just find it very weird that you tell Janne to "Just keep following the videos that tell you what to do because that's easier than doing math." and refer to Rainers videos instead of taking your time to explain the math behind your decisions.
I have posted several builds online that go into detail about what i do when building my toons, you should look them up for answer to your question.
Lol I don't think he realised he was talking to Janne or he would've taken his input more seriously xD
For the sake of clarity, Micky1p00 and Janne are the same person.
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The only thing confusing me is that you are referring to “pure math” that is telling you to distribute stats the way that you do. If you could show this math, it would be easier to understand what you are trying to say.
How about we do it this way since I just watched Rainer's video and he came to the same conclusion as me with regard to Crit Avoid and Deflect. He's telling people to dump everything else into HP, though. I disagree, with the caveat that my dps build isn't for the high-end dungeons.
So a question for you. Disregarding the high-end dungeons, you have your Defense and Awareness capped and 900k-ish HP. What else would you do with your extra stats?
I am extremely aware of Rainers videos and Janne's documentation of game mechanics/calculations. I just find it very weird that you tell Janne to "Just keep following the videos that tell you what to do because that's easier than doing math." and refer to Rainers videos instead of taking your time to explain the math behind your decisions.
I have posted several builds online that go into detail about what i do when building my toons, you should look them up for answer to your question.
I have no idea who Janne is and only know Rainer from his character builder / pocket wiki and seeing his name mentioned on the forums or in game. I decided to check out one of his videos and, while I see why he is doing what he is doing, I don't agree with dumping everything in HP - again, with the caveat that he isn't specifically talking about lower-IL dungeons like I am. It makes it difficult to compare.
The only thing confusing me is that you are referring to “pure math” that is telling you to distribute stats the way that you do. If you could show this math, it would be easier to understand what you are trying to say.
How about we do it this way since I just watched Rainer's video and he came to the same conclusion as me with regard to Crit Avoid and Deflect. He's telling people to dump everything else into HP, though. I disagree, with the caveat that my dps build isn't for the high-end dungeons.
So a question for you. Disregarding the high-end dungeons, you have your Defense and Awareness capped and 900k-ish HP. What else would you do with your extra stats?
I am extremely aware of Rainers videos and Janne's documentation of game mechanics/calculations. I just find it very weird that you tell Janne to "Just keep following the videos that tell you what to do because that's easier than doing math." and refer to Rainers videos instead of taking your time to explain the math behind your decisions.
I have posted several builds online that go into detail about what i do when building my toons, you should look them up for answer to your question.
Lol I don't think he realised he was talking to Janne or he would've taken his input more seriously xD
For the sake of clarity, Micky1p00 and Janne are the same person.
Sorry, I don't watch YouTube videos about Neverwinter. I really don't know who Janne is - assuming he posts YouTube videos like the one I watched from Rainer yesterday.
But I've never seen an update on this site, maybe the contents are more in discord now.
And I believed that Janne was a former and current regular of the dragon race in well of dragons since in a chat with SkullElf he reported to me that Janne was not fluent in English and Janne of racing also did not interact much and the times when I tried to take some doubts, always asked me to write in French.
> @maxzius#3795 said: > I have no idea who Janne is and only know Rainer from his character builder / pocket wiki and seeing his name mentioned on the forums or in game. I decided to check out one of his videos and, while I see why he is doing what he is doing, I don't agree with dumping everything in HP - again, with the caveat that he isn't specifically talking about lower-IL dungeons like I am. It makes it difficult to compare. > > Do you have a link to your builds online?
They are in the integrated nw-hub directory of shared builds in the character builder.
> @admiralwarlord#3792 said: > https://guides.jannenw.info/category/opinions-and-blog/ > > But I've never seen an update on this site, maybe the contents are more in discord now. > > And I believed that Janne was a former and current regular of the dragon race in well of dragons since in a chat with SkullElf he reported to me that Janne was not fluent in English and Janne of racing also did not interact much and the times when I tried to take some doubts, always asked me to write in French.
Try nw-hub-dot-com
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
But I've never seen an update on this site, maybe the contents are more in discord now.
And I believed that Janne was a former and current regular of the dragon race in well of dragons since in a chat with SkullElf he reported to me that Janne was not fluent in English and Janne of racing also did not interact much and the times when I tried to take some doubts, always asked me to write in French.
hmmm, except that I really do like French baguettes I don't know a single word in French. I think you mistake the Janne's. The site was/is https://jannenw.info what you linked is an attached guides site ( https://guides.jannenw.info/ ) that had emphasis on quality, but it's hard for people to write guides with every mod there is a rework.
Sorry, I don't watch YouTube videos about Neverwinter. I really don't know who Janne is - assuming he posts YouTube videos like the one I watched from Rainer yesterday.
But funny aside, I'll try to make an ehp calculator today to help to resolve this issue. (and apologies to the OP for the thread hijack.) Meanwhile, while I don't agree with the must cap, and indeed some stats are less effective than others, it doesn't mean that they are useless as defensive stats. Sometimes going extreme in either direction is not optimal, in some context.
> I have no idea who Janne is and only know Rainer from his character builder / pocket wiki and seeing his name mentioned on the forums or in game. I decided to check out one of his videos and, while I see why he is doing what he is doing, I don't agree with dumping everything in HP - again, with the caveat that he isn't specifically talking about lower-IL dungeons like I am. It makes it difficult to compare.
>
> Do you have a link to your builds online?
They are in the integrated nw-hub directory of shared builds in the character builder.
Fighter builds with author Grim Kaal.
Nice builds and exactly what I would do if I was building for any of the higher-end dungeons (like my defense loadout). Do me a favor and try out your AOE/Solo build that you posted on 3/1 in an epic q. Use the Frozen or Envenomed as your active and let me know how it goes compared to a full defensive build.
As a sidenote - you may want to look into using the Darkened rather than the Flayed for the Forte in that build.
Anyway, we're way off topic, now. The game is losing tanks daily because of the changes. Partly because they're not used to taking the damage that they're taking and partly because most people don't understand percents - especially the way it's implemented with percent coming from two different places and the ratings side not even really being a true percent. There has to be a way to allow tanks to take less damage than they are currently taking - tanks are currently taking the same amount of damage as dps do... so why play a tank (is exactly what any new player is going to think). New tanks and healers aren't used to this and are giving up and either leaving the game or just playing dps. Let's not forget - healers are also negatively affected by tanks taking the amount of damage that we're taking. As I said before, I'm all for some type of Damage Resistance on tank builds. I'd much rather that DR not be tied to threat, though, as was suggested because I don't believe that would help new players, at all.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited March 2021
Not verified yet, so there could be errors, but for now:
1. Even at lower deflect severity, rising deflect chance is better than defense (for the stats in the example). 2. Awareness in many cases is the best defensive stat, not taking it is... waste of points. 3. Crit avoidance, while not the best, is still not negligible.
There are 2 things that I think are taken over the top, one is that if a stat is less effective than another doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taken at all. It means that if given a choice between the two, one should take the better one. But it doesn't mean a player that needs defensive stats should go offensive because some defensive stats are not great.
Second thing is that DPS and Tanks do not take the same damage, same as DPS and tanks do not deal the same damage. The only difference while having the same stats are the feats + role bonus. That's it. But it is a difference that shouldn't be neglected when comparing in neither offense, and neither defense.
Saying that they receive the same damage, is the same as saying they deal the same damage, both are untrue.
Second thing is that DPS and Tanks do not take the same damage, same as DPS and tanks do not deal the same damage. The only difference while having the same stats are the feats + role bonus. That's it. But it is a difference that shouldn't be neglected when comparing in neither offense, and neither defense.
Saying that they receive the same damage, is the same as saying they deal the same damage, both are untrue.
Sorry Janne, I don't understand that point. I know dps deal more damage due to the 20% bonus - but other than holding up their shield as needed, I don't see any other incoming damage modifiers for tanks unless you're referring to the use of encounters or the shield?
On the Pally, we used to have a variety of secondary defence layers (shielding strike, templars wrath etc) but now we only have Absolution and the never-used Divine Champion (never used as it drains divinity, which is needed for encounters).
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Second thing is that DPS and Tanks do not take the same damage, same as DPS and tanks do not deal the same damage. The only difference while having the same stats are the feats + role bonus. That's it. But it is a difference that shouldn't be neglected when comparing in neither offense, and neither defense.
Saying that they receive the same damage, is the same as saying they deal the same damage, both are untrue.
Sorry Janne, I don't understand that point. I know dps deal more damage due to the 20% bonus - but other than holding up their shield as needed, I don't see any other incoming damage modifiers for tanks unless you're referring to the use of encounters or the shield?
On the Pally, we used to have a variety of secondary defence layers (shielding strike, templars wrath etc) but now we only have Absolution and the never-used Divine Champion (never used as it drains divinity, which is needed for encounters).
Sorry, I've meant powers, but was thinking how the feats are bad, so ended up writing the wrong one. (and also the daily, divine protector, but yeah, it's a daily..)
About Divine Champion, you mean in solo play? Because I've used it, and Palisade (to help DPS survive AoE). For solo I would still go for more damage over defensive stuff.
In general while I don't think that passive increase in mitigation is the way to go, I do think that there should be more with various powers and feat synergies. Making a more interesting gameplay.
Second thing is that DPS and Tanks do not take the same damage, same as DPS and tanks do not deal the same damage. The only difference while having the same stats are the feats + role bonus. That's it. But it is a difference that shouldn't be neglected when comparing in neither offense, and neither defense.
Saying that they receive the same damage, is the same as saying they deal the same damage, both are untrue.
Sorry Janne, I don't understand that point. I know dps deal more damage due to the 20% bonus - but other than holding up their shield as needed, I don't see any other incoming damage modifiers for tanks unless you're referring to the use of encounters or the shield?
On the Pally, we used to have a variety of secondary defence layers (shielding strike, templars wrath etc) but now we only have Absolution and the never-used Divine Champion (never used as it drains divinity, which is needed for encounters).
Sorry, I've meant powers, but was thinking how the feats are bad, so ended up writing the wrong one. (and also the daily, divine protector, but yeah, it's a daily..)
About Divine Champion, you mean in solo play? Because I've used it, and Palisade (to help DPS survive AoE). For solo I would still go for more damage over defensive stuff.
In general while I don't think that passive increase in mitigation is the way to go, I do think that there should be more with various powers and feat synergies. Making a more interesting gameplay.
Yep Divine Champion is a real sticking point for me - the fact that it is linked to Divinity and that incoming damage drains divinity (while DC is up) - but the best encounters also need divinity (Smite, Templars Wrath, Bane) and getting the divinity back up is really slow unless we have multiple sources of incoming damage.
So if we use DC we can run out of divinity, which means we have to wait before using the encounters - which are our main threat generators. It's weirdly unhelpful.
I do believe you're right about not needing extra mitigation if the mechanics worked together well - I just wish that either DC didn't use divinity or we had a better means of refreshing it - especially against enemies that hit infrequently but very hard.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited March 2021
Yeah, this is why I actually like Fighters "Dig in", I know some call it the potty squat and make fun of it, (and disclaimer, I don't play GF) but I do like the concept (and the looks). The fact that DC allows to move, imo, doesn't compensate for the convoluted usage of divinity. IMO it should work like palisade to begin with, mitigation + some area mitigation + no movement and the entire divinity stuff needs a rework.
Though I usually overtake aggro with one smite and then try to keep it with at-will, so not overly smiting. I do think that divinity stuff can work, but IMO it should recharge faster, and be decoupled from damage taken unless it's some feated bonus that gives more. In some ways like healer works.
This way a player has a choice use it up offensively, or use it defensively (lets say you have a skill similar to absolution that works like smite, using divinity). In many ways it worked like that previously, but a lot was lost during so many reworks.
Bottom line, I do not presume to a be tanking expert (though, before anyone jumps, Iv'e tanked enough on paladin), my argument is that the main issue is not in the ability of the tanks to tanks, or even if, the solution is not just throw passive mitigation. Since people can prove that it's possible to tank, or to kill or everything. The question is "Is it fun?" "Is it interesting?" "Does it have a skill curve, where a player can do perform better by using some synergy or combinations?" And IMO currently it's not. Increasing passive ability while may solve some issues, in general it's the same as making content hit less.. until comes the next content and we are in the same story once again. Only with duller classes.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
Bottom line, I do not presume to a be tanking expert (though, before anyone jumps, Iv'e tanked enough on paladin), my argument is that the main issue is not in the ability of the tanks to tanks, or even if, the solution is not just throw passive mitigation. Since people can prove that it's possible to tank, or to kill or everything. The question is "Is it fun?" "Is it interesting?" "Does it have a skill curve, where a player can do perform better by using some synergy or combinations?" And IMO currently it's not. Increasing passive ability while may solve some issues, in general it's the same as making content hit less.. until comes the next content and we are in the same story once again. Only with duller classes.
IMO the fun comes when you have to "play" actively as a tank, not only be a bag of hits.
I like how the ads try to get CA so I have to move to not be flanked. I like to "manage" the bosses, moving them out of ice for example to have a more smooth time for dps or moving them to be able to kill him (VoS 3rd boss) while trying to survive the mechanics I like to tune up defenses / powers for a big hit, I would like also to have something to protect team from a big aoe for example (other than palisade or Shield of Faith that are meh)
This is why the new dungeon (VoS) is a very good example of a good job in mechanics, and I would like to have more like this
Also I would like to have powers like "Come and get it" to group ads or more tactical things. Auras IMO are just trash and boring
Yes auras are trash as they provide almost meaningless buffs now - I'd like to be able to use the tab mechanic Divine Champion without killing offensive capability by draining divinity as it would free up more options - but I suppose those other options are pretty limited regardless since they nerfed every encounter, at-will and class feature...
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited March 2021
Here a random idea, what if tab works like palisade (or more like dig in) without the 10% on cone but just on the tank, and the tank can't move. But since the player can't move or attack the at-wills get 2 new actions, and those do drain divinity. One is the 10% cone mitigation, and the second activates the slotted aura, which should also match and be much more powerful (with more interesting buffs, or enemy debuffs).
(This assumes that divinity recharges mainly with time, like healers)
So we get more standardized tanking ability - which is some way more boring, but at the same time we get more interesting resource management tradeoff on top of tanking that allows the paladin to boost / defend the party when needed, and it's not just walking buff bot like AoC was. And the player can choose if to drain divinity for that, or not, without hurting the most basic defensive class mechanic aspect which is the "dig-in/palisade".
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
Here a random idea, what if tab works like palisade (or more like dig in) without the 10% on cone but just on the tank, and the tank can't move. But since the player can't move or attack the at-wills get 2 new actions, and those do drain divinity. One is the 10% cone mitigation, and the second activates the slotted aura, which should also match and be much more powerful (with more interesting buffs, or enemy debuffs).
(This assumes that divinity recharges mainly with time, like healers)
So we get more standardized tanking ability - which is some way more boring, but at the same time we get more interesting resource management tradeoff on top of tanking that allows the paladin to boost / defend the party when needed, and it's not just walking buff bot like AoC was. And the player can choose if to drain divinity for that, or not, without hurting the most basic defensive class mechanic aspect which is the "dig-in/palisade".
I dont like the idea of being unable to move.
But the idea of the tab activating a powerfull aura for a limited time, or powerfull new powers that can help to burst damage or a big mitigating for team is cool. Divinity as a resource is a good idea, but I think it should be only for offense.
Also, divine palisade wasting divinity + shield is horrible IMO.
My suggestion therefore is the following MODIFICATION of the damage formula (for tanks only): If you change it - from x = 1/(1 + defense%/100%) - to x_mod = 1/(1 + 3*defense/100%)
I agree with what you posted, and particularly with the above quote. This is not a bad suggestion, and it would certainly go a long way to improving the current system for tanks.
I believe that the suggestion for tanks to receive a +20% DR role bonus as an addition to their +20% HP, would actually be a far more effective solution though, although I would like to see that maximum total DR from all sources, even Powers, is capped at 90%, so there would be no issues where players could exceed 90% DR.
I've read through a lot of discussion regarding the need for such a change, and I believe that many are correctly identifying and observing the issue, while others may be challenged in observing the larger and more wider situation and context.
The unfortunate reality is that tanks, as a whole across all three classes, are pretty much at the absolute barest possible capacity and facility to successfully navigate and complete content. For example, even a BiS tank will likely die if the tank now makes a mistake or some other external factor impacts upon their game play (i.e. lag) - the game is very unforgiving. While some may argue that this is how it should be, I disagree, in part, as if a DPS or a healer lags, then it may result in a party/group wipe, yet if a tank dies, there's a significant chance that the party/group will wipe. In this respect, the game is more forgiving of other roles and classes making mistakes than it is for tanks.
In addition to this, the game is now extremely challenging for new players who play a tank, and in my experience, based upon the dozens of new tanks (even those played by people who main other classes and have some experience) that I help out each week, there are a few significant issues which prevent them from enjoying playing the role of a tank. These issues could be loosely described as "a lack of survivability", a "lack of role/class knowledge", and "easy accessibility and acquisition of items to improve survivability".
While it's logical to argue that 'players can acquire the gear necessary to help them easily tank', the actual reality is that, particularly for a new player, even acquiring items from Juma bags, SKT store, Chult/Barovia Hunts etc. takes a considerable amount of time. This then leaves new players of tanks in a state of somewhat despair, as they realise that in order to acquire items to assist in increasing their survivability, they will need to invest possibly even 8+ hours per day for possibly months - just to be able to tank content that their TIL indicates they should be able to successfully. By way of an example, a new player tank could reach 80, and just with gear from Undermountain, gain sufficient TIL to supposedly successfully tank LoMM.
In some contexts, this may not be too much of an issue, yet consideration must then be also given to party composition, experience and capability, as at certain points in even LoMM, healers may struggle to keep that tank alive, and this may be made more difficult when there are DPS in the party who may not be avoiding damage as much as they should, who may not use self-healing capabilities such as Potions/Stones, and who then restrict the capability of the healer to heal the tank.
For those players who aren't new, this may not be as challenging situation as it is for new players, as established players may have access to more gold/AD for potions/stones, better companions (in terms of appropriate stats and quality), better mount bonus, including Combat Powers, and items such as Chains of Scales etc.
What seems most stupid to me, is that throughout the discussions leading up to the live implementation of these changes, and even afterwards (including in this thread), there has been players who either do not tank at all, or who primarily main a DPS class, who have, for some truly stupid reason, decided that they should, somehow, have their perspective given consideration, and wish to nerf the survivability of tanks, when it may often be the tank that stands between them dying, and the successful completion of content - DPS pushing to nerf tank survivability serves no purpose, as it does not negatively affect a DPS if a tank has more survivability, but it certainly does affect the DPS if a tank has less.
I would argue that I am an experienced tank, and have a sound knowledge of the game, yet in my experience, while I may have a tank operating at approximately BiS capability (minus the mythic collars), I will frequently see similarly BiS DPS dealing far more than 300%+ more total damage than I do, and yet that discrepancy between damage output is not mirrored in the comparative survivability between those DPS and I, and a large part of this is due to a lack of inherent passive base mitigation for tanks as a part of their role, even if that means generally lowering the damage mitigation provided by defensive stats in general.
There have been many arguments that 'tanks are needed', and 'DPS can't tank end-content', yet this is, very painfully, not true. I've been a DPS in a party which successfully completed VoS without a tank, where a Rogue outfitted with Earthen weapon set, Diamond set, Dread Warrior in companion equip power slot, and using a Negation, was able to successfully hold Aggro and survive. As others have mentioned, and as I have similarly experienced, ToMM runs are completed without a tank at all, and even IC and LoMM aren't exempt from this lack of a need for a tank. I have heard rumours that it's possible to complete ZC without tanks too, yet i've not experienced this personally yet, but it would not surprise me to find out that it is possible to not bother taking a tank to ZC.
The most troubling thing about the current situation with tanks, is that survivability is a requirement, yet survivability has been significantly nerfed with the new combat changes (Refer to my post here for more information: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1258846/i-dont-appreciate-being-blatantly-lied-to). Although not necessarily directly relevant, it is important to note that, comparatively, DPS players did not experience such a nerf to their damage output. Please note that this is not intended as a request to nerf the damage output of DPS players, as I believe that anyone pushing an agenda for nerfing any particular class/role should be completely ignored.
What I believe is important, is that there was an actual decrease in tank survivability, while at the same time, NPCs were 'buffed'. While there are some players voicing their approval and support of this increase in 'challenging play environment', based upon my limited understanding, those players have a lack of understanding, knowledge or perspective on what the experience is for new players trying to tank, and their perspectives tend towards being too narrow-minded in their focus upon what they may be capable of as an experienced, supported and, in some cases, possibly even well-funded, player.
As a player who has typically been around in the game for longer than most (and for that time, almost exclusively playing a tank), and a player who has been frequently more intimately and directly involved in the progress, and opportunities for development and improvement in tank classes, I have never observed or experienced such a large quantity of tank players all voicing their concerns so unanimously on one single topic - tanks need significant improvements to survivability. Typically, as a whole, tank players do not tend towards bullying, en-masse, for improvements to their classes, as most tanks seem to take the perspective that 'we'll somehow make do with whatever changes eventuate - we'll keep tanking'. However, when there is such a large quantity of tank players all saying the exact same thing, then there is, without any doubt, or reasonable or logical argument against, that there is, indeed, a problem.
While it may be, in some contexts and to some extent, fair and reasonable to propose that the problem lies solely with a lack of knowledge and experience, this argument is, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant as to whether tank survivability requires an increase. Simply put, if a new player finds it impossible (whether due to being too expensive, too tedious, unrewarding, too difficult, or some other reason) or 'not fun' to tank, then there is a problem. When experienced players similarly voice these concerns, then arguments made by those who do not mainly play a tank should never be contributed to the discussion if their arguments are, in any way, an attempt to cast aspersions on the perspectives of those who are actual tanks. One simple, logical, reasonable and necessary way to ensure that all tanks have no issues with tanking, while encouraging and supporting players, both and new and old to tank, is to simply increase the survivability of tanks.
Prior to this combat system going live, I posted suggestions for improving the survivability of tanks by increasing the tank role bonus to HP derived from TIL from 20% to 40%, by changing both Deflect Severity and Critical Severity to constants such as 50%, to changing the stats derived from mount equip powers to %, by decreasing the Combined Rating on enchantments and runestones in favour of increasing their other stats, and I would now like to add to these, the suggestion and recommendation that, for DPS classes, all defensive stats contribute 1%:2000 stats and, similarly, for tanks, all offensive stats contribute 1%:2000 stats, Magnitude of tank powers are increased by 20%, and tanks receive a role bonus of +20% base damage mitigation.
I also believe that Forte should be obtained by stacking the primary Ability Score for your role, and not purely by stacking Charisma, as many players now find that Forte is 'necessary', yet stacking Charisma is a contributing factor to players not being as effective in their role as they might otherwise be.
With these changes, I believe every concern would be reasonably resolved, as survivability would increase, general playability and enjoyment in playing tanks would increase, and, hopefully, general damage for soloing content for tanks.
6
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited March 2021
How insightful to know that someone here gets to decide whose opinions are valid and whose not. I wonder who is more short sighted and who can see the bigger picture, players who play only 1 role (some of those got back to the game a couple of weeks ago) or players who play all roles.
I will not go into all the links and examples how some claimed that it's impossible to do ToMM, and impossible to do this and that, while it was all proven false. It's not a surprise that some do not have an iota of integrity.
I'm just confused by one thing, how is that tanks have such a hard time to tank end-game, while allegedly (and I'll quote) "a Rogue outfitted with Earthen weapon set, Diamond set, Dread Warrior in companion equip power slot, and using a Negation, was able to successfully hold Aggro and survive" (btw, would love to see the video of such run, with Rogue as tank)
Maybe the the tanks that have such a hard time should outfit Earthen weapon set, Diamond set, Dread Warrior companion and use Negation?
I also suggest that BiS gear be given at the end of the tutorial to tanks too. it's surely an oversight, since DPS and Healers obviously are geared from the start and do not need to farm gear to be able to do their role effectively.
Excellent post, I really could not ever expressed these thoughts more clearly and better myself.
Agree with all of your points; But knowing how DPS tend to react in every Defender class buff I would argue that a change that affects both Striker classes and Dfender classes would raise fewer complaints. So a modification as that proposed by the OP maybe is more suitable to the current player ecosystem of NW.
As you clearly identified there is a number of influential DPS players that tend to overeact. These players unfortunately while they are great at creating content otherwise helpfull content for the game ,lack the insight and goodwill to see the greater good; As such the devs should take care and evaluate the situation for the greater good. As you said it is a dire situation. Never before there was such bad situation for thedefender classes. The root of the problem is ,I suspect! , the devs vision of how and what tanks should be in NW.
The mod16 rework and the current changes were a huge contradiction between the desired goals and the outcome. Let's hope for the best in the future!
Another excellent post where you choose to comment on the participants in the discussion. Congratulations on another derailment.
Elite Whaleboy
1
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited March 2021
I've encountered many first in NW. But even now I encounter a new first in the low level of discussion some people bring. It's so sad that again, the discussion gets dragged down to discussion about people.
That "lack of insight and good will to see the greater good", I wonder if those above who bring it up, do they practice what they preach? Even before the rework? I've tanked and healed hundreds of ToMMs (combined, heals more), now comes the question to how many they did as dps and healers? Why I have a feeling that I ran non-dps more than both of those players healed and DPSed combined, both players, both roles. Yet the same accusation of "DPS mafia". Pathetic.
How many times we will see the repeat of the same contradictory lies? Tanks can't tank yet all content can be tanked by non- tanks? New players? New players have issue with doing solo content, it's boring, it's slow, but could it be that 2 of the 3 tanks have DPS paragons.. that at the level of new players doesn't need special gear. But no, lets give them 20% more DR, so it's the same slow and boring, that for sure will make everyone happy.
Since I'm suggesting to increase solo oriented damage especially for paladins, and create more mechanics that allow mitigation from active skills and feats that have actual synergy, playing the game as opposed to passive flat resistance, while having the proper trade offs so a tank class will not slap-on full DPS gear and becomes the FOTM thing until the sure to come nerf that will put it again as the least favored ginger step child for 10 mods, yet, opposed by people who can't hear anything except flat buffs or to remove awareness which is practically the best defensive stats and now separates tanks from other roles. I can only summarize that the underling request is "make tanking easier since we don't want more active class, we want back the snooze fest that was M18-19 (or worse, m12)" where tanks could tank just by standing still. Is it some ego at feeling less good at the role that drives all this? Everyone adapting, except some people who are only here to derail and slander, with personal attacks. Interesting isn't it, since my first suggestion in this thread was to increase DPS to much lower parity than 1:3, yet our 'dear' tanks do not agree?
When the tank role in NW, instead of being a resource management role, a resource only a tank has (active mitigation ability) it will be reduced again to memorizing the one tank buster, and the gear they wear (since you need to survive said tank buster with stats), that is if the Devs have time to do a tank buster, I'll be happy to link the posts with an "I told you so!". And when the dps will kite that one tank buster, or just use a scroll or get the boss stuck in the terrain (hello t3) and tanks will as useful as some forum posts, I could link again the "I told you so".
Oh and ofc one mistake and splat, since there is no other option with tank busters. Hello second boss in IC and all the tears that came with it.
How ironic is that those that blame others of short sightedness are the most short sighted.
Since some tanking to far, resist even to ideas and discussion I don't have the time to for some low level personal attacks and nonsense. Lets hope for the sake of the game that the game doesn't become even more boring, and some roles even more dull and useless, due to some trying to use bandaid as a cure for kidney stones, just due to personal issues.
Post edited by micky1p00 on
3
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited March 2021
The reality behind the disagreement is, that on the one side you have people who, for the most part, believe tanking should be a passive part of gameplay. Where they believe that you should not have to play the game at all and your stats alone should make you able to survive anything. The other side believes that tanking should be an active part of gameplay. Whether you survive or not should rest on player skill. Which abilities you use, when you use them, how you position yourself should be the factors that determine whether or not you are capable of tanking. This right here is the heart of the disagreement.
Stating that tanks should be able to tank by just having the stats they have is like saying that DPS should have auras that they slot into every available place in their power tray and the only thing that determines whether or not they pass a dps check is the stats they have. Right now DPS gameplay is very nearly like this for almost every class, which is one of the reasons (in my opinion) why right now, the game is so dull to play. There is almost no active component to any part of gameplay, the outcome of almost everything rests solely on your gear.
Comments
> > @wilbur626 said:
> > > @maxzius#3795 said:
> > > c'mon... you even quoted what I said.
> > >
> > > I literally said Crit Avoid doesn't matter unless the mob actually crits on you. So... there's your answer, I guess.
> > >
> > > To take it further, yes, tanks take even more damage 50% of the time. Unless the mob is dead because the tank can actually help the dps kill it. Then the tank takes 0 damage from that mob. So up to you, I guess... either take more damage from that next hit or never even take that next hit.
> >
> > How does this kill or be killed strategy work for you in Zariel?
>
> Why would you think that 98% of content would include Zariel?
I find it very hard to follow your logic.
Are you saying that you are building your tank in a way that will exclude it from endgame content by focusing on offensive stats because you are taking too much damage ?
When you stated that there is “ no reason to spec full defense for 98% of the content”, I thought you meant the stat “defense”.
I would still love to see the math that you use to come to your conclusions, as I like to study actual calculations for better understanding of the combat system.
what is real you don't need tank in 98% of content or tanks need more defense for 98% of content that healer can tank.
For solo content if they need damage buff sure but you need to spec full dps gear companion enchants and lose the defense you have , you cant ask to keep tankiness and get more dps game will be broken . you cant use tank gear on dps and expect to kill adds fast as full dps gear.
In party content tho tank need keep adds in check can even do 0 damage no one care is dps job to kill adds.
when you chose to play tank you chose bc you want to tank get the heat and all be in your hands where adds and the pace of dungeon will go, if you want to do damage play dps.
All here writing for new players and know what they want new players don't come here anyway they play the game and are having fun, if game is hard is even more fun to play ,like was this game for us when it started was a hard fun game they got rid of both fun and hard part. Only came back with tomm and zariel the hard and fun part.
All people that come here and want something are not new players are players that cant adapt to the new system , game moves you need to prepare for that, listen to people that know the new system is different game that was before mod 16 or mod 19 we have new system.
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Main Kingslayer.jr(barb)
I have 2 builds for group content. We'll call one dps and one defense (not the stat, the stat defense is always near cap except in my solo build). The first build, the dps build, I use in almost all content. I use this build because I can both tank and help the dps kill things. I don't need Deflect or Crit Avoid in most content so I boost my offense stats in order to help the group. This is great for PUGs and when you end up with new dps players to help them get through content. As a side note - very rarely I'll end up with 2/3 good dps and a new healer. In that case I might switch out to my full defense build in order to help the healer if they are struggling. I'm at work so I can't take a screenshot, but here's a image of the build from Rainer's Character Builder in combat with Protector on (note that the Defense Rating is higher in the image because Rainer is in the middle of updating the Boots of the Herald on his builder and they are still showing as 5000 rating rather than 5 percent, but the percent is correct overall - this matters because I use the insignia powers Protector's Comraderie (1k Defense/Crit Sev - stacks are easy to keep up) and Calvary's Warning (2k all stats for 10 sec) and neither show up in the builder:
My second group build I use for the tougher content. This is where tanks could use some more defensive equipment choices, in my opinion. It would be nice to be able to choose more Crit Sev or more Crit Avoid if that's what someone would like to do. As it stands now, Paladins are the only tank class where going Deflect makes any sense for a full Defensive build due to getting Defl Sev from Forte. An image of that build with Protector on and the same notes from the other about Boots of the Herald (Defense rating showing 5k too high and, in this case, the Defense % is actually showing low. I also use both of the same insignia powers:
The problem, and it's been stated before, is that there is no real middle ground for difficulty. It's either pretty easy to tank (and in that case I use my dps group build to help) or it's incredibly difficult to new tanks because we get absolutely hammered, now, and there's no real difference in damage taken between a DPS character or a tank character. I'm with both zimxero and mentinmindmaker (very beginning of this thread) in adding some type of damage resistance if using a tank loadout. It helps the new players learn to tank and doesn't affect us in the easier content as, in my opinion, we should already spec offense to help out there.
The only thing confusing me is that you are referring to “pure math” that is telling you to distribute stats the way that you do. If you could show this math, it would be easier to understand what you are trying to say.
So a question for you. Disregarding the high-end dungeons, you have your Defense and Awareness capped and 900k-ish HP. What else would you do with your extra stats?
I just find it very weird that you tell Janne to "Just keep following the videos that tell you what to do because that's easier than doing math." and refer to Rainers videos instead of taking your time to explain the math behind your decisions.
I have posted several builds online that go into detail about what i do when building my toons, you should look them up for answer to your question.
For the sake of clarity, Micky1p00 and Janne are the same person.
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Do you have a link to your builds online?
Sorry, I don't watch YouTube videos about Neverwinter. I really don't know who Janne is - assuming he posts YouTube videos like the one I watched from Rainer yesterday.
But I've never seen an update on this site, maybe the contents are more in discord now.
And I believed that Janne was a former and current regular of the dragon race in well of dragons since in a chat with SkullElf he reported to me that Janne was not fluent in English and Janne of racing also did not interact much and the times when I tried to take some doubts, always asked me to write in French.
> I have no idea who Janne is and only know Rainer from his character builder / pocket wiki and seeing his name mentioned on the forums or in game. I decided to check out one of his videos and, while I see why he is doing what he is doing, I don't agree with dumping everything in HP - again, with the caveat that he isn't specifically talking about lower-IL dungeons like I am. It makes it difficult to compare.
>
> Do you have a link to your builds online?
They are in the integrated nw-hub directory of shared builds in the character builder.
Fighter builds with author Grim Kaal.
> https://guides.jannenw.info/category/opinions-and-blog/
>
> But I've never seen an update on this site, maybe the contents are more in discord now.
>
> And I believed that Janne was a former and current regular of the dragon race in well of dragons since in a chat with SkullElf he reported to me that Janne was not fluent in English and Janne of racing also did not interact much and the times when I tried to take some doubts, always asked me to write in French.
Try nw-hub-dot-com
The site was/is https://jannenw.info what you linked is an attached guides site ( https://guides.jannenw.info/ ) that had emphasis on quality, but it's hard for people to write guides with every mod there is a rework.
Now the work is at https://www.nw-hub.com which will be updated as time allows.
You can also find the various builds there. They are a summary of the the builds loaded in the Rainer's Char builder.
well, I don't watch NW youtube either, but more of things like that https://jannenw.info/pages/mechanics16/formulas and
https://jannenw.info/pages/mechanics16/defense
hence what happened was ironic and sort of funny.
But funny aside, I'll try to make an ehp calculator today to help to resolve this issue. (and apologies to the OP for the thread hijack.) Meanwhile, while I don't agree with the must cap, and indeed some stats are less effective than others, it doesn't mean that they are useless as defensive stats. Sometimes going extreme in either direction is not optimal, in some context.
As a sidenote - you may want to look into using the Darkened rather than the Flayed for the Forte in that build.
Anyway, we're way off topic, now. The game is losing tanks daily because of the changes. Partly because they're not used to taking the damage that they're taking and partly because most people don't understand percents - especially the way it's implemented with percent coming from two different places and the ratings side not even really being a true percent. There has to be a way to allow tanks to take less damage than they are currently taking - tanks are currently taking the same amount of damage as dps do... so why play a tank (is exactly what any new player is going to think). New tanks and healers aren't used to this and are giving up and either leaving the game or just playing dps. Let's not forget - healers are also negatively affected by tanks taking the amount of damage that we're taking. As I said before, I'm all for some type of Damage Resistance on tank builds. I'd much rather that DR not be tied to threat, though, as was suggested because I don't believe that would help new players, at all.
https://www.nw-hub.com/mechanics/ehpcalc
What I'm trying to convey is:
1. Even at lower deflect severity, rising deflect chance is better than defense (for the stats in the example).
2. Awareness in many cases is the best defensive stat, not taking it is... waste of points.
3. Crit avoidance, while not the best, is still not negligible.
There are 2 things that I think are taken over the top, one is that if a stat is less effective than another doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taken at all. It means that if given a choice between the two, one should take the better one. But it doesn't mean a player that needs defensive stats should go offensive because some defensive stats are not great.
Second thing is that DPS and Tanks do not take the same damage, same as DPS and tanks do not deal the same damage. The only difference while having the same stats are the feats + role bonus. That's it. But it is a difference that shouldn't be neglected when comparing in neither offense, and neither defense.
Saying that they receive the same damage, is the same as saying they deal the same damage, both are untrue.
On the Pally, we used to have a variety of secondary defence layers (shielding strike, templars wrath etc) but now we only have Absolution and the never-used Divine Champion (never used as it drains divinity, which is needed for encounters).
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Lt. Thackeray: HR
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Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
About Divine Champion, you mean in solo play?
Because I've used it, and Palisade (to help DPS survive AoE).
For solo I would still go for more damage over defensive stuff.
In general while I don't think that passive increase in mitigation is the way to go, I do think that there should be more with various powers and feat synergies. Making a more interesting gameplay.
So if we use DC we can run out of divinity, which means we have to wait before using the encounters - which are our main threat generators. It's weirdly unhelpful.
I do believe you're right about not needing extra mitigation if the mechanics worked together well - I just wish that either DC didn't use divinity or we had a better means of refreshing it - especially against enemies that hit infrequently but very hard.
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Lt. Thackeray: HR
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Though I usually overtake aggro with one smite and then try to keep it with at-will, so not overly smiting.
I do think that divinity stuff can work, but IMO it should recharge faster, and be decoupled from damage taken unless it's some feated bonus that gives more. In some ways like healer works.
This way a player has a choice use it up offensively, or use it defensively (lets say you have a skill similar to absolution that works like smite, using divinity). In many ways it worked like that previously, but a lot was lost during so many reworks.
Bottom line, I do not presume to a be tanking expert (though, before anyone jumps, Iv'e tanked enough on paladin), my argument is that the main issue is not in the ability of the tanks to tanks, or even if, the solution is not just throw passive mitigation. Since people can prove that it's possible to tank, or to kill or everything. The question is "Is it fun?" "Is it interesting?" "Does it have a skill curve, where a player can do perform better by using some synergy or combinations?"
And IMO currently it's not. Increasing passive ability while may solve some issues, in general it's the same as making content hit less.. until comes the next content and we are in the same story once again. Only with duller classes.
I like how the ads try to get CA so I have to move to not be flanked.
I like to "manage" the bosses, moving them out of ice for example to have a more smooth time for dps or moving them to be able to kill him (VoS 3rd boss) while trying to survive the mechanics
I like to tune up defenses / powers for a big hit, I would like also to have something to protect team from a big aoe for example (other than palisade or Shield of Faith that are meh)
This is why the new dungeon (VoS) is a very good example of a good job in mechanics, and I would like to have more like this
Also I would like to have powers like "Come and get it" to group ads or more tactical things. Auras IMO are just trash and boring
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Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
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Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
(This assumes that divinity recharges mainly with time, like healers)
So we get more standardized tanking ability - which is some way more boring, but at the same time we get more interesting resource management tradeoff on top of tanking that allows the paladin to boost / defend the party when needed, and it's not just walking buff bot like AoC was. And the player can choose if to drain divinity for that, or not, without hurting the most basic defensive class mechanic aspect which is the "dig-in/palisade".
But the idea of the tab activating a powerfull aura for a limited time, or powerfull new powers that can help to burst damage or a big mitigating for team is cool. Divinity as a resource is a good idea, but I think it should be only for offense.
Also, divine palisade wasting divinity + shield is horrible IMO.
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I believe that the suggestion for tanks to receive a +20% DR role bonus as an addition to their +20% HP, would actually be a far more effective solution though, although I would like to see that maximum total DR from all sources, even Powers, is capped at 90%, so there would be no issues where players could exceed 90% DR.
I've read through a lot of discussion regarding the need for such a change, and I believe that many are correctly identifying and observing the issue, while others may be challenged in observing the larger and more wider situation and context.
The unfortunate reality is that tanks, as a whole across all three classes, are pretty much at the absolute barest possible capacity and facility to successfully navigate and complete content. For example, even a BiS tank will likely die if the tank now makes a mistake or some other external factor impacts upon their game play (i.e. lag) - the game is very unforgiving. While some may argue that this is how it should be, I disagree, in part, as if a DPS or a healer lags, then it may result in a party/group wipe, yet if a tank dies, there's a significant chance that the party/group will wipe. In this respect, the game is more forgiving of other roles and classes making mistakes than it is for tanks.
In addition to this, the game is now extremely challenging for new players who play a tank, and in my experience, based upon the dozens of new tanks (even those played by people who main other classes and have some experience) that I help out each week, there are a few significant issues which prevent them from enjoying playing the role of a tank. These issues could be loosely described as "a lack of survivability", a "lack of role/class knowledge", and "easy accessibility and acquisition of items to improve survivability".
While it's logical to argue that 'players can acquire the gear necessary to help them easily tank', the actual reality is that, particularly for a new player, even acquiring items from Juma bags, SKT store, Chult/Barovia Hunts etc. takes a considerable amount of time. This then leaves new players of tanks in a state of somewhat despair, as they realise that in order to acquire items to assist in increasing their survivability, they will need to invest possibly even 8+ hours per day for possibly months - just to be able to tank content that their TIL indicates they should be able to successfully. By way of an example, a new player tank could reach 80, and just with gear from Undermountain, gain sufficient TIL to supposedly successfully tank LoMM.
In some contexts, this may not be too much of an issue, yet consideration must then be also given to party composition, experience and capability, as at certain points in even LoMM, healers may struggle to keep that tank alive, and this may be made more difficult when there are DPS in the party who may not be avoiding damage as much as they should, who may not use self-healing capabilities such as Potions/Stones, and who then restrict the capability of the healer to heal the tank.
For those players who aren't new, this may not be as challenging situation as it is for new players, as established players may have access to more gold/AD for potions/stones, better companions (in terms of appropriate stats and quality), better mount bonus, including Combat Powers, and items such as Chains of Scales etc.
What seems most stupid to me, is that throughout the discussions leading up to the live implementation of these changes, and even afterwards (including in this thread), there has been players who either do not tank at all, or who primarily main a DPS class, who have, for some truly stupid reason, decided that they should, somehow, have their perspective given consideration, and wish to nerf the survivability of tanks, when it may often be the tank that stands between them dying, and the successful completion of content - DPS pushing to nerf tank survivability serves no purpose, as it does not negatively affect a DPS if a tank has more survivability, but it certainly does affect the DPS if a tank has less.
I would argue that I am an experienced tank, and have a sound knowledge of the game, yet in my experience, while I may have a tank operating at approximately BiS capability (minus the mythic collars), I will frequently see similarly BiS DPS dealing far more than 300%+ more total damage than I do, and yet that discrepancy between damage output is not mirrored in the comparative survivability between those DPS and I, and a large part of this is due to a lack of inherent passive base mitigation for tanks as a part of their role, even if that means generally lowering the damage mitigation provided by defensive stats in general.
There have been many arguments that 'tanks are needed', and 'DPS can't tank end-content', yet this is, very painfully, not true. I've been a DPS in a party which successfully completed VoS without a tank, where a Rogue outfitted with Earthen weapon set, Diamond set, Dread Warrior in companion equip power slot, and using a Negation, was able to successfully hold Aggro and survive. As others have mentioned, and as I have similarly experienced, ToMM runs are completed without a tank at all, and even IC and LoMM aren't exempt from this lack of a need for a tank. I have heard rumours that it's possible to complete ZC without tanks too, yet i've not experienced this personally yet, but it would not surprise me to find out that it is possible to not bother taking a tank to ZC.
The most troubling thing about the current situation with tanks, is that survivability is a requirement, yet survivability has been significantly nerfed with the new combat changes (Refer to my post here for more information: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1258846/i-dont-appreciate-being-blatantly-lied-to). Although not necessarily directly relevant, it is important to note that, comparatively, DPS players did not experience such a nerf to their damage output. Please note that this is not intended as a request to nerf the damage output of DPS players, as I believe that anyone pushing an agenda for nerfing any particular class/role should be completely ignored.
What I believe is important, is that there was an actual decrease in tank survivability, while at the same time, NPCs were 'buffed'. While there are some players voicing their approval and support of this increase in 'challenging play environment', based upon my limited understanding, those players have a lack of understanding, knowledge or perspective on what the experience is for new players trying to tank, and their perspectives tend towards being too narrow-minded in their focus upon what they may be capable of as an experienced, supported and, in some cases, possibly even well-funded, player.
As a player who has typically been around in the game for longer than most (and for that time, almost exclusively playing a tank), and a player who has been frequently more intimately and directly involved in the progress, and opportunities for development and improvement in tank classes, I have never observed or experienced such a large quantity of tank players all voicing their concerns so unanimously on one single topic - tanks need significant improvements to survivability. Typically, as a whole, tank players do not tend towards bullying, en-masse, for improvements to their classes, as most tanks seem to take the perspective that 'we'll somehow make do with whatever changes eventuate - we'll keep tanking'. However, when there is such a large quantity of tank players all saying the exact same thing, then there is, without any doubt, or reasonable or logical argument against, that there is, indeed, a problem.
While it may be, in some contexts and to some extent, fair and reasonable to propose that the problem lies solely with a lack of knowledge and experience, this argument is, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant as to whether tank survivability requires an increase. Simply put, if a new player finds it impossible (whether due to being too expensive, too tedious, unrewarding, too difficult, or some other reason) or 'not fun' to tank, then there is a problem. When experienced players similarly voice these concerns, then arguments made by those who do not mainly play a tank should never be contributed to the discussion if their arguments are, in any way, an attempt to cast aspersions on the perspectives of those who are actual tanks. One simple, logical, reasonable and necessary way to ensure that all tanks have no issues with tanking, while encouraging and supporting players, both and new and old to tank, is to simply increase the survivability of tanks.
Prior to this combat system going live, I posted suggestions for improving the survivability of tanks by increasing the tank role bonus to HP derived from TIL from 20% to 40%, by changing both Deflect Severity and Critical Severity to constants such as 50%, to changing the stats derived from mount equip powers to %, by decreasing the Combined Rating on enchantments and runestones in favour of increasing their other stats, and I would now like to add to these, the suggestion and recommendation that, for DPS classes, all defensive stats contribute 1%:2000 stats and, similarly, for tanks, all offensive stats contribute 1%:2000 stats, Magnitude of tank powers are increased by 20%, and tanks receive a role bonus of +20% base damage mitigation.
I also believe that Forte should be obtained by stacking the primary Ability Score for your role, and not purely by stacking Charisma, as many players now find that Forte is 'necessary', yet stacking Charisma is a contributing factor to players not being as effective in their role as they might otherwise be.
With these changes, I believe every concern would be reasonably resolved, as survivability would increase, general playability and enjoyment in playing tanks would increase, and, hopefully, general damage for soloing content for tanks.
I wonder who is more short sighted and who can see the bigger picture, players who play only 1 role (some of those got back to the game a couple of weeks ago) or players who play all roles.
I will not go into all the links and examples how some claimed that it's impossible to do ToMM, and impossible to do this and that, while it was all proven false. It's not a surprise that some do not have an iota of integrity.
I'm just confused by one thing, how is that tanks have such a hard time to tank end-game, while allegedly (and I'll quote) "a Rogue outfitted with Earthen weapon set, Diamond set, Dread Warrior in companion equip power slot, and using a Negation, was able to successfully hold Aggro and survive" (btw, would love to see the video of such run, with Rogue as tank)
Maybe the the tanks that have such a hard time should outfit Earthen weapon set, Diamond set, Dread Warrior companion and use Negation?
I also suggest that BiS gear be given at the end of the tutorial to tanks too. it's surely an oversight, since DPS and Healers obviously are geared from the start and do not need to farm gear to be able to do their role effectively.
Agree with all of your points;
But knowing how DPS tend to react in every Defender class buff I would argue that a change that affects both Striker classes and Dfender classes would raise fewer complaints.
So a modification as that proposed by the OP maybe is more suitable to the current player ecosystem of NW.
As you clearly identified there is a number of influential DPS players that tend to overeact.
These players unfortunately while they are great at creating content otherwise helpfull content for the game ,lack the insight and goodwill to see the greater good; As such the devs should take care and evaluate the situation for the greater good.
As you said it is a dire situation.
Never before there was such bad situation for thedefender classes.
The root of the problem is ,I suspect! , the devs vision of how and what tanks should be in NW.
The mod16 rework and the current changes were a huge contradiction between the desired goals and the outcome.
Let's hope for the best in the future!
Another excellent post where you choose to comment on the participants in the discussion. Congratulations on another derailment.
It's so sad that again, the discussion gets dragged down to discussion about people.
That "lack of insight and good will to see the greater good", I wonder if those above who bring it up, do they practice what they preach? Even before the rework? I've tanked and healed hundreds of ToMMs (combined, heals more), now comes the question to how many they did as dps and healers? Why I have a feeling that I ran non-dps more than both of those players healed and DPSed combined, both players, both roles. Yet the same accusation of "DPS mafia". Pathetic.
How many times we will see the repeat of the same contradictory lies? Tanks can't tank yet all content can be tanked by non-
tanks?
New players? New players have issue with doing solo content, it's boring, it's slow, but could it be that 2 of the 3 tanks have DPS paragons.. that at the level of new players doesn't need special gear. But no, lets give them 20% more DR, so it's the same slow and boring, that for sure will make everyone happy.
Since I'm suggesting to increase solo oriented damage especially for paladins, and create more mechanics that allow mitigation from active skills and feats that have actual synergy, playing the game as opposed to passive flat resistance, while having the proper trade offs so a tank class will not slap-on full DPS gear and becomes the FOTM thing until the sure to come nerf that will put it again as the least favored ginger step child for 10 mods, yet, opposed by people who can't hear anything except flat buffs or to remove awareness which is practically the best defensive stats and now separates tanks from other roles. I can only summarize that the underling request is "make tanking easier since we don't want more active class, we want back the snooze fest that was M18-19 (or worse, m12)" where tanks could tank just by standing still. Is it some ego at feeling less good at the role that drives all this? Everyone adapting, except some people who are only here to derail and slander, with personal attacks. Interesting isn't it, since my first suggestion in this thread was to increase DPS to much lower parity than 1:3, yet our 'dear' tanks do not agree?
When the tank role in NW, instead of being a resource management role, a resource only a tank has (active mitigation ability) it will be reduced again to memorizing the one tank buster, and the gear they wear (since you need to survive said tank buster with stats), that is if the Devs have time to do a tank buster, I'll be happy to link the posts with an "I told you so!". And when the dps will kite that one tank buster, or just use a scroll or get the boss stuck in the terrain (hello t3) and tanks will as useful as some forum posts, I could link again the "I told you so".
Oh and ofc one mistake and splat, since there is no other option with tank busters. Hello second boss in IC and all the tears that came with it.
How ironic is that those that blame others of short sightedness are the most short sighted.
Since some tanking to far, resist even to ideas and discussion I don't have the time to for some low level personal attacks and nonsense. Lets hope for the sake of the game that the game doesn't become even more boring, and some roles even more dull and useless, due to some trying to use bandaid as a cure for kidney stones, just due to personal issues.
Stating that tanks should be able to tank by just having the stats they have is like saying that DPS should have auras that they slot into every available place in their power tray and the only thing that determines whether or not they pass a dps check is the stats they have. Right now DPS gameplay is very nearly like this for almost every class, which is one of the reasons (in my opinion) why right now, the game is so dull to play. There is almost no active component to any part of gameplay, the outcome of almost everything rests solely on your gear.