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Tank's defense formula - a small modification to make tanking more relevant

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  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    mushellka said:



    Yep. This is the reason why tanks are leaving the game. They come in here with their problems and all they get is HAMSTER. Is wilbur trying to help? Yes. Is he helping? No. Not at all.

    How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage.

    That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.

    And you promise not to lose aggro to those dps?
    Because while your faction claims that dps are immortal, I dare say otherwise. . .

    Your style of writing in one word: eaggerations.
    Do you really think it help? You do not help at all. You make the problem worse. What you do is mockery.
    Can you quote someone told DPS are immortal?
    I still wait for quote someone ask for equal damage DPS:Tank.
    Can you please stop it?
    There can be no debate on this basis.

    I cannot see your point. HDPS dealing x5-x8 multipler in damage more than a paladn (without DPS paragon - I think a tank without DPS paragon, while is worse tank than vanguard should get compensation). I asked one time +20%, your reaction = LOL.
    x5 - x8 -> x5*0,80=4 - x8*0,80=6,4
    Why you are that intolerable against tanks come here and stifle whole discussion with your false exaggerations. Only numer I provided to raise damage was blessed wanderer +20% damage and to lose all extra threat generation.
    this would be a damage buff in the range versus DPS from x5 - x8 -> x4 - x6,4. YAY Mushellka needs to come here to stifle (without any proof or quote) and that tank wants deal equal damage to DPS. HELPFUL. Very helpful. I am sure you must be proud of you.
    I cannot see your point. I proof non-tank paragons have exaggerated defence capabilities and claim that tanks are often not needed and you come here our faction claim DPS are immortal. You should be banned for all this false information and all these provokes base of 0 fundamentals. You helped no one.
    Having different opinion like @wilbur626 is one point. But what is your assignment @mushellka ?
    Can you now only one time give us a useful comment?

    1.) someone ask for equal damage DPS:Tank
    2.) someone told DPS are immortal
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    edited March 15
    I don't think you distinguish between general discussion and class forum discussion.
    You should have written there. You'd have a more appreciative audience. . .

    On the other hand, in a public forum, you have to be ready for a discussion of substance, supported by arguments, not empty complaining.
    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @maxzius#3795 said:

    > Yep. This is the reason why tanks are leaving the game. They come in here with their problems and all they get is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Is wilbur trying to help? Yes. Is he helping? No. Not at all.

    >

    > How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage.

    >

    > That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.


    Unlike you, I don’t have a group to run with. I run with whoever is running the content that I want to run.


    One of the problems with these “discussions” is that people like you make up stuff to make people that provide actual facts look bad.


    I have been called a whale, elitist, troll, fanboy and even shareholder the last few days just for disagreeing and providing counter arguments.


    I find behavior like this very weird, but I guess it is what happens when I provide information to people that want to make up stuff to fit their complaints.


    I have shared multiple builds, ranging from budget builds to extreme “endgame” builds via nw-hub and YouTube, and many players have found these very helpful. I can’t claim to be a superior e-sports athlete or some kind of professor in NW, but I do make sure the information I provide is correct.


    Simply asking a question in these forums instead of making wall-of-text posts based on false information would make it a lot easier to help.

    I run my REDQ/RTQ only with randoms. Every time. Maybe ~3% of all my runs was friend-only = 0,000000% problems.
    But with randoms (most often new players) I play what is needed tank/heal. I know the problems very well they have because I see the problems every day atleast 6 times.
    I called you the whale. If it affected you, I am sorry. I do not want to insult you, but many of you do not understand the problems of many players, because you do not run with them. I want only to clarify that you cannot have problems - as a whale = have everything needed.
    Now with tank damage nerf it is a huge problem if you get a very weak team. As DPS player I would be able to carry them. As Tank the nightmare starts.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    mushellka said:

    mushellka said:



    Yep. This is the reason why tanks are leaving the game. They come in here with their problems and all they get is HAMSTER. Is wilbur trying to help? Yes. Is he helping? No. Not at all.

    How about we do it this way... If the tanks want to survive how about they only run with great healers and 3 dps who not only know the content, but hit hard enough to kill whatever comes the group's way before the tank has to take too much damage.

    That's the problem with wilbur's advice. He doesn't realize it, but he's totally fine because his group is great, like mine.

    And you promise not to lose aggro to those dps?
    Because while your faction claims that dps are immortal, I dare say otherwise. . .

    Wait, what? Who ever said dps were immortal?

    Also, no, I don't have a problem with aggro, although I hear most tanks in the 30-50k range do. If they're losing aggro to you then that seems to back up the claim that there's a problem with the tank formula, right?
    No, the problem is with the tank's skills.
    The problem is also often a bad build.
    The problem is not knowing the mechanics.
    If you cannot do something it does not automatically mean that the formula is wrong.
    You always have to start from yourself.

    I've seen tanks over 50k who have never been on end-game content. Because they'd rather play tank-dps, and despair that the game is broken.
    95%-98% of the game is that easy that there is no reason to play full-tank. The tank is strong enough, if he is strong enough. If I do not die, there is no reason to cap to more of die not????
    It is like overheal not needed. Ofcourse it is a smart guy only use what is needed.
    2%-5% is full-tank content. And you - with all respect - do not know the difficulty level to tank at end content (first hand, not friend). It is not that easy only build full-tank build and everything cool. Tank a TOMM yourself. The difficulty level of all mechanics for tanks are downright overwhelming many tanks. While the tank have to take care about many in TOMM, what do you do? Hit TAB 3 seconds every 5 seconds, hit 'E' after aoe damage, move out of AOE, behind ice etc. plus having good stats? If it would be that easy for tank.... I know the difference of tank and healer.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 885 Arc User
    > @hypervoreian said:
    > The discussion is pointless.
    >
    > The mod16 rebalance and nuking of the tanks was so severe and so triumphant for the people that wanted tanks nerfs , that now asking simple things DPS take it as insult.
    > It is hopeless.
    >
    > It is sad.
    >
    > Imagine a tank player that never plays DPs to state that and go to CW/TR/GWF forum and start patronizing that the classes are fine ,that GWFs have no skill and so on.He will be banned in seconds.
    >
    > And here we have a fest of other classes showing up and telling us how to play what to demand and how and what to write.
    > Like we do not play this game for 8 years and dont know the mechanics.

    I dont know if you are aware of it, but you keep commenting on the participants in the discussion and never the topic.

    This is what makes your participation pointless.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 885 Arc User
    > @maxzius#3795 said:
    > I've been telling you that you're not actually listening to what the players are saying for weeks, now, and that there is a huge difference between our IL and the players that are having problems. If you consider me trying to help you understand what they're saying this:
    >

    I don’t know how you could have missed that I play a 51k Fighter. a 37k Paladin and a 33k Barbarian.
    None of them are experiencing the “problems” described in this thread or the other tank threads.

    The problems described can easily be solved with understanding of the new system and willingness to learn actual game mechanics/systems instead of making up stuff to fit complaints.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    You really surprising, even me.
    It's hard to talk to you.
    Who is asking for tanks damage to be eqalled with dpses?
    You first.

    Tanks deals 100% dmg, DPS 100% + 20%, total 120%.
    You're asking for a 20% damage increase for tanks and you're asking me who expects that? And who wrote that:


    Only numer I provided to raise damage was blessed wanderer +20% damage and to lose all extra threat generation.

    Roughly speaking, that means you want 20% more dmg, without aggro generation, but also without the condition that it is only for solo content

    You removed damage from tank, to give work to paingivers. And play only aggro and sandbag is not that sexy for many veterans. And to speak about damage. Many tanks still do good amount of damage - with offensive build and risky tank, but nowhere near from what it was before against REAL HDPS.

    Sexy? Really? If you dealing more damage, will that make you sexier? Well, good luck It must be very important for you.

    I'm not going to comment on the rest of your nonsenses, because I'd have to fight you on your level, and here you will beat me with experience

    So. Since you already said goodbye nicely once, be consistent for once and don't force me to participate in your next fantasies.

    And yes, now it was actually irony, in a case if anyone had any doubts

    I don't know why I'm even replying to you, since both your posts and my replies will be deleted by a moderator.(regards)

    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 885 Arc User


    I called you the whale. If it affected you, I am sorry. I do not want to insult you, but many of you do not understand the problems of many players, because you do not run with them. I want only to clarify that you cannot have problems - as a whale = have everything needed.

    This is a very spesific example of things that are only true in your own head. I have no idea what you are basing this on. Can you please eleborate ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    mushellka said:

    You really surprising, even me.
    It's hard to talk to you.
    Who is asking for tanks damage to be eqalled with dpses?
    You first.

    Tanks deals 100% dmg, DPS 100% + 20%, total 120%.
    You're asking for a 20% damage increase for tanks and you're asking me who expects that? And who wrote that:


    Only numer I provided to raise damage was blessed wanderer +20% damage and to lose all extra threat generation.

    Nothing get equalled. You only look to absolute numbers and do not put them into relative context. With losing all threat generation a tank lose his tank role and is now useless to the group from tank perspective, but he will perform atleast 20% faster in solo content and can atleast get a little boost in group content of 98% within the game where tank is not needed.

    If you only look to absolute numbers it would be equal with 120% increase of damage. But you know a tank has way longer encounters and lower magnitudes.
    Is this total damage ratio equal?
    5.000.000*1,20=6.000.000
    1.000.000*1,20=1.200.000
    ??? That are relative numbers.
    mushellka said:


    You removed damage from tank, to give work to paingivers. And play only aggro and sandbag is not that sexy for many veterans. And to speak about damage. Many tanks still do good amount of damage - with offensive build and risky tank, but nowhere near from what it was before against REAL HDPS.

    Sexy? Really? If you dealing more damage, will that make you sexier? Well, good luck It must be very important for you.
    Replace sexy with fun if you have problem with that word. I thought even in poland, from what I know, someone would understand in context I mean it is not that much fun.

  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:


    I called you the whale. If it affected you, I am sorry. I do not want to insult you, but many of you do not understand the problems of many players, because you do not run with them. I want only to clarify that you cannot have problems - as a whale = have everything needed.

    This is a very spesific example of things that are only true in your own head. I have no idea what you are basing this on. Can you please eleborate ?
    You said the game is okay. Only need tutorials. If you would see new tanks struggling on regular basis AND think about that they do not have equipment to adjust what you proposed to them? I cannot imagine you run often with new players. Maybe you do, if so, you do them zero favor argue everything is their fault. You can deny to everything. But pushing DPS make tanking harder and unfun, especially to a new player. He have to learn RUN, RUN, RUN? I never met a new tank fast enough. No tutorial will help with that problem. It is systems fault, not players fault.
  • badnickname#3262 badnickname Member Posts: 23 Arc User


    Nothing get equalled. You only look to absolute numbers and do not put them into relative context. With losing all threat generation a tank lose his tank role and is now useless to the group from tank perspective, but he will perform atleast 20% faster in solo content and can atleast get a little boost in group content of 98% within the game where tank is not needed.

    Look from the dps perspective. What is the reason to invite such tank to group? He has +20% dmg, but without threat generation. If this is private q, I would take another one dps, run will be even faster. If this is redq, me or another real dps would have aggro. But during this time tank could play without interruption. And he may get role bonus at the end. For what? For queuing as a tank but pretending dps while others had to deal with boss agro and hords of mobs? No thanks.

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 885 Arc User

    wilbur626 said:


    I called you the whale. If it affected you, I am sorry. I do not want to insult you, but many of you do not understand the problems of many players, because you do not run with them. I want only to clarify that you cannot have problems - as a whale = have everything needed.

    This is a very spesific example of things that are only true in your own head. I have no idea what you are basing this on. Can you please eleborate ?
    You said the game is okay. Only need tutorials. If you would see new tanks struggling on regular basis AND think about that they do not have equipment to adjust what you proposed to them? I cannot imagine you run often with new players. Maybe you do, if so, you do them zero favor argue everything is their fault. You can deny to everything. But pushing DPS make tanking harder and unfun, especially to a new player. He have to learn RUN, RUN, RUN? I never met a new tank fast enough. No tutorial will help with that problem. It is systems fault, not players fault.
    I have yet to blame a new player for anything, once again you are making up things to fit your arguments.
    What equipment is it that i recommend that is impossible to get hold of ?

    All the equipment I recommend for new players can be farmed from Adventure Zones, Juma bags, Heroics and UM Expeditions. The weapon set I recommend is the one you get as quest reward for UM intro. If getting equipment that is handed out for free in non-quened content is too hard, I really dont know how to help these new players.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    mushellka said:

    Relative numbers, you say?
    Relative numbers, you forgot about are also:
    Bane:- 620 mag
    Smite -1150 mag
    Divine Judgement - 2200 mag
    With frequent critic (forte) and chosen feat Baneful Strikes, you have a free bane every now and then.

    As for the second part of your statement. . .
    In Poland we even have a special term to describe admiring yourself on a pangiver's list and yes, you're right, it's related to sex :)

    Divinity skills have good magnitudes but we can not spam divinity skills, so it is not comparable with fast DPS cooldown encounters.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User


    Nothing get equalled. You only look to absolute numbers and do not put them into relative context. With losing all threat generation a tank lose his tank role and is now useless to the group from tank perspective, but he will perform atleast 20% faster in solo content and can atleast get a little boost in group content of 98% within the game where tank is not needed.

    Look from the dps perspective. What is the reason to invite such tank to group? He has +20% dmg, but without threat generation. If this is private q, I would take another one dps, run will be even faster. If this is redq, me or another real dps would have aggro. But during this time tank could play without interruption. And he may get role bonus at the end. For what? For queuing as a tank but pretending dps while others had to deal with boss agro and hords of mobs? No thanks.

    Yes, okay. This would be a problem if a tank do not get aggro when he should get it.
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User


    Divinity skills have good magnitudes but we can not spam divinity skills, so it is not comparable with fast DPS cooldown encounters.

    I see where it goes. A mechanic that allows you to use free bane, high magnitudes plus block restoring your divinity, partially caped offensive stats and in addition extra 20% to dps would allow you to one-shot weaker bosses


    That's why I'm all for boosting Blessed Wanderer but only for solo content.

    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • maxzius#3795 maxzius Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @maxzius#3795 said:

    > I've been telling you that you're not actually listening to what the players are saying for weeks, now, and that there is a huge difference between our IL and the players that are having problems. If you consider me trying to help you understand what they're saying this:

    >


    I don’t know how you could have missed that I play a 51k Fighter. a 37k Paladin and a 33k Barbarian.

    None of them are experiencing the “problems” described in this thread or the other tank threads.


    The problems described can easily be solved with understanding of the new system and willingness to learn actual game mechanics/systems instead of making up stuff to fit complaints.

    I understand what you're trying to avoid. I get it. My problem is that you are arguing so hard to avoid tank-dps builds that you don't seem to understand that we're ALREADY there BECAUSE of this new system and the lack of items for defensive builds.

    There is absolutely no reason (especially for a Paladin) to spec full defense for 98% of the content since no matter what we do we're going to get absolutely hammered by mobs. Crit Avoid only helps half of the time, there's no way to raise Deflect Severity so no reason to raise Deflect. Pure math says that a Paladin should cap Defense, get Awareness to 60% (get the cap from your daily) and go full offense once you have a decent amount of HP. That's what the math says. I get you're arguing to try to avoid where tanks can do this, but again... we're already there for Paladins.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 885 Arc User
    edited March 15
    @maxzius#3795

    How will increasing effectiveness of defensive stats that we already have more than enough of solve this issue?

    I would love to see that pure math btw

    While you are educating me, please explain how critical avoidance works aswell?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • maxzius#3795 maxzius Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    @maxzius#3795


    How will increasing effectiveness of defensive stats that we already have more than enough of solve this issue?


    I would love to see that pure math btw


    While you are educating me, please explain how critical avoidance works aswell?

    You give people a choice since we're already there. If there were deflect severity items tanks may choose to go that route instead of going offensive, as they might actually take less damage.

    Your pure math is this - a dead mob can't damage you.

    Tanks are taking way too much damage from mobs. The game changed and we have to change with it. If they're not going to provide items to mitigate the damage then the mob has to die faster. Again, no reason to spec full defense for 98% of the content in this rushed, half thought-out update.

    A mob has 50% chance to crit strike you with it's 90% crit sev. Your crit avoid counters the mobs crit sev. So... it doesn't matter what your Crit Avoid is unless the mob actually crits on you. 50% of the time. Half, like I said.

    I'm sorry that you don't like where we are, and honestly I wasn't even going to post it here until you kept pushing it, but I figured someone else was going to figure it out sooner or later - especially after you posted those solo videos in the other thread. This is where we're at. Blame whoever tells the devs what to do, not the players.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 459 Arc User
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1258799/official-combat-changes-stats

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1258800/official-combat-changes-forte

    Instead of theorizing things without a future perspective or wondering, they should stop to understand how the changes were made and that there are many suggestions from players that were attended to by the Dev's.

    One of the complaints of many was that everyone ran with the same equipment and this should not be occurring due to the "Forte", but it is that for some it is easier to copy from someone without even understanding than to create something really their own.

    "Youth is the time to study wisdom; old age is the time to practice it."

    Jean-Jacques Rousseau
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 885 Arc User
    > @maxzius#3795 said:

    > Tanks are taking way too much damage from mobs.
    >
    > A mob has 50% chance to crit strike you with it's 90% crit sev. Your crit avoid counters the mobs crit sev. So... it doesn't matter what your Crit Avoid is unless the mob actually crits on you. 50% of the time. Half, like I said.
    >


    Tanks are taking too much damage.
    Tanks take even more damage 50% of the time.

    How can it not matter what your Critical Avoidance is ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • maxzius#3795 maxzius Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    > @maxzius#3795 said:


    > Tanks are taking way too much damage from mobs.

    >

    > A mob has 50% chance to crit strike you with it's 90% crit sev. Your crit avoid counters the mobs crit sev. So... it doesn't matter what your Crit Avoid is unless the mob actually crits on you. 50% of the time. Half, like I said.

    >



    Tanks are taking too much damage.

    Tanks take even more damage 50% of the time.


    How can it not matter what your Critical Avoidance is ?

    c'mon... you even quoted what I said.

    I literally said Crit Avoid doesn't matter unless the mob actually crits on you. So... there's your answer, I guess.

    To take it further, yes, tanks take even more damage 50% of the time. Unless the mob is dead because the tank can actually help the dps kill it. Then the tank takes 0 damage from that mob. So up to you, I guess... either take more damage from that next hit or never even take that next hit.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 885 Arc User
    > @maxzius#3795 said:
    > c'mon... you even quoted what I said.
    >
    > I literally said Crit Avoid doesn't matter unless the mob actually crits on you. So... there's your answer, I guess.
    >
    > To take it further, yes, tanks take even more damage 50% of the time. Unless the mob is dead because the tank can actually help the dps kill it. Then the tank takes 0 damage from that mob. So up to you, I guess... either take more damage from that next hit or never even take that next hit.

    How does this kill or be killed strategy work for you in Zariel?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • maxzius#3795 maxzius Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    > @micky1p00 said:
    > So, let me get it straight. You don't spec full defense, because you get hammered, in a content that just yesterday was shown that can be tanked by a bloody healer, solo?
    >
    > How about speccing some defensive stats then... And you know.. not get hammered... mind blown... (and no I'm not saying capping them all)
    >
    > And can we see that math? I'm math challenged so detailed calculation will help a lot, thanks.

    How about you follow the actual conversation instead of being toxic? If the tank is going to get hammered with or without Deflect or Crit Avoid why spec it? Just spec offense with capped Def and Aware and actually help out the dps so you don't get hit?

    Or just keep following the videos that tell you what to do because that's easier than doing math.
  • maxzius#3795 maxzius Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    > @wilbur626 said:
    > > @maxzius#3795 said:
    > > c'mon... you even quoted what I said.
    > >
    > > I literally said Crit Avoid doesn't matter unless the mob actually crits on you. So... there's your answer, I guess.
    > >
    > > To take it further, yes, tanks take even more damage 50% of the time. Unless the mob is dead because the tank can actually help the dps kill it. Then the tank takes 0 damage from that mob. So up to you, I guess... either take more damage from that next hit or never even take that next hit.
    >
    > How does this kill or be killed strategy work for you in Zariel?

    Why would you think that 98% of content would include Zariel?
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