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Tank's defense formula - a small modification to make tanking more relevant

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  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    mushellka said:

    ...

    I general agree with that you said.
    But you are making a general mistake when saying that tanks want to do same dps ad strikers (DPS).
    None tank ever said that. Sorry. None in all threads.
    we said we want more dps cause now it is abysmal low . You misunderstood that part.
    One thing is morer DPS other thing is to have DPS on par with DPS.

    Really? Also, what does it mean, when you say that tanks have 20% less dps than DPSes? :) Because this issue is brought up in every thread. The usual hypocrisy.
    As for the number of loadouts on sw I have 4, on cw 5. For OP I only need two: tank and heal. Strange, isn't it?

    Maybe because changing something for OP has only negligible impact?
    Or it is your lack of knowledge of the OP paragons.
    Oathkeeper DPS - ATM strongest of Paladin
    Oathkeeper Heal - Normal envionment // Trash Groups
    Oathkeeper Heal - Boss environment
    Justicar DPS
    Justicar Tank - Normal envionment // Trash Groups
    Justicar Tank - Boss environment

    2 Loadout for Paladin means you only play Redq/Rtq for AD bonus with low performance.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 12
    wilbur626 said:

    @hypervoreian


    A tank can use procs and class mechanics to reach all 90% in all defensive stats just like a DPS can do it for offensive stats. You claim this is impossible and unfair when the reality is that the claim is false.


    Can you name one example of content currently in the game where you need 1 or more defensive stat at (or even close) to 90% to finish?

    You missed one point.
    If a DPS raise offensive stats by procs and class mechanics it is at 0 risk and will raise their damage.
    If a Tank raise defensive stats by procs and class mechanics it is at risk, because you need to procc it before you receive the hit. Lead effectively to procc it when it is not needed and often is not procced when it is needed, while DPS deal more damage at 0 risk.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    DPS with all 90% offensive stats = faster clears.


    Tanks with all 90% defensive stats = no difference at all.


    Is it the look of the number 90 you are after?

    Yea tanks have not that much impact. Now you confirm my point of view.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User

    First of all, tank does not need 90% in all stats to perform well. Since current combat changes tanks can generate and mantain threat easier than before without investing much in offensive stats.

    There is also new set that helps you generate more threat. I’m playing justicar 1,5 year and this is not my only one character. My tank has currently 47,8k TIL. I haven’t invested in offensive stats, but mostly in defense and awareness. The solo play is slower in comparison to my wizard, but it’s not terrible.

    I haven’t problems with survivability in new dungeon as well with threat. Some skills offers hard taunt, others helps mantain aggro by generating threat. The key to succes is to use combination of them. People who demand to increase magnitude of encounters and base damage, doing just something wrong.

    I would say that it’s easier now to hold aggro. I’m not claiming that it’s good and everyone should be happy, becouse they are some areas that needs improvement. I would have more fresh gear specced for tanks, with more useful bonuses. We don’t have items comparable to gear from avernus t3 hunt. These items are suited for dps classes and we should ask for new gear that would help play our role – tanking. It means holding aggro, taking damage and keeping rest party safe.

    Threat is not a stat at all. It is a class mechanic and compensate nothing when it comes to balance.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 905 Arc User
    edited March 12
    >@hypervoreian

    > Do you think giving NPCs CA while facing you is logical?

    A random dwarf facing a demigod, archdevil, dragon or even the queen of dragons should of course be at a disadvantage. The way this is solved by combat advantage uptime can be discussed, but it makes perfect sense.

    > Do you think a tank wih 53% DR is tanky ?

    For some it sure is. Why players with limited experience/skill would choose to not increase DR is the question.

    > Do you think that awareness is not needed?

    Awareness is needed. Is 90% awareness needed? No. Is 60-70% more than enough? Yes.

    > Do you think high HPs are not needed?

    This does of course depend on content. It is currently possible to stack far more HP than actually needed, so it is up to the individual players skill/playstyle to determine if other sources than item level is needed.

    > Do you think high shield regen is not needed?

    There are more than enough sources of stamina regeneration in the game.

    > Do you think that Mod19/20 tank gear is appropriate?

    Mod 19 has the boots. Mod 20 the chest. Mod 20 has the artifact set. Mod 19 has the rings. Mod 20 has shirt/pants. M19 has viable weapon sets. Mod 19 and mod 20 has viable companion gear. This means 3 artifacts is all you need from older content.
    Post edited by wilbur626 on
    Elite Whaleboy
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User

    @arkhadiam#2543
    Why do you comparing dps and tank in such way? It’s like comparing apples and oranges.
    Dps needs those offensive stats (which is not easy to achieve, as you may think), to be effective in group content. Tank does not need so many stats capped becouse he has other role. It’s enough if he have two the most important defensive stats high. For me, it’s easier to make a tank build than dps.

    Perspective of a tank who tank on occasion and has main DPS at hand.
    So tank is only useful(like a slave) at group content?
    No problem with that.
    Give Paladin DPS Paragon.
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User




    Maybe because changing something for OP has only negligible impact?
    Or it is your lack of knowledge of the OP paragons.
    Oathkeeper DPS - ATM strongest of Paladin
    Oathkeeper Heal - Normal envionment // Trash Groups
    Oathkeeper Heal - Boss environment
    Justicar DPS
    Justicar Tank - Normal envionment // Trash Groups
    Justicar Tank - Boss environment

    2 Loadout for Paladin means you only play Redq/Rtq for AD bonus with low performance.

    I rarely get to play RDQ and REDQ.
    I've only been playing healer and dps lately.
    But my boyfriend plays OP, has two loadouts, and successfully completes vos :)
    Want to talk about it?

    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • badnickname#3262 badnickname Member Posts: 23 Arc User


    Threat is not a stat at all. It is a class mechanic and compensate nothing when it comes to balance.

    I didn't wrote that it's a regular stat. Threat can be generated by dpses and even healers. Tanks has class mechanic that incrases their threat generation. There are aslo items that incrases threat by %. So it is just some generated value, based on your damage and threat multipliers, not displayed in your character tab. And if it's higher than threat generated by other players, voilà you holding agro.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 12
    Mod edited out religion.

    You guys tell me/us a hundred times tank is in a decent spot, do enough damage, can do content, can farm all needed.

    And I speak to you guys a hundred times about balance/fairness/bad TTK/many content do not need tank, you yourself Wilbur told us defense stats are not that important. Cool.

    You want me to point out in what content Tank deal not enough damage. This is pointless. You speak apples I speak bananas.

    If Monster A has 1000 HP, DPS deal 1000 Damage = 1 Hit = dead.
    If Monster A has 1000 HP, Tank deal 150 Damage = 7 Hit = dead.

    You see no problem because content can be done. I see problem because of slow TTK. The difference is to big.

    I tell you guys TTK is bad, you guys come and say I want same damage like DPS. WTF. This is very low degree of discussion dudes. What about 4 Hits in this example?

    It is not that I do not understand your point of view. The content is described i.e. open world to be done with more players. But you guys never respond to the reality. The tank is now seeking that group but the tank is not needed. You do not see these problems? IF there are groups formed, it is filled with HDPS.

    To be more in line to your arguments - every can be done - are you more happy if I ask for nerfhammer to DPS? I mean, even if they get nerfed, every can be done. (or they could form groups, lol) No?

    Balance is a systems problem, not a players problem.
    Post edited by kreatyve on
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    How about we stop the conversation here, ask for a dev's reply (chris does indeed play a pally) and ask what the intent is for open world content and where they believe pally to be. This thread just took over the other thread's traffic that was closed. This is doing nothing but going in circles.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 905 Arc User



    Fact is, DR cannot be increased beyond 53%, because its the true DR you get at 90% defense.


    This is 100% incorrect
    Elite Whaleboy
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,896 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:



    Fact is, DR cannot be increased beyond 53%, because its the true DR you get at 90% defense.


    This is 100% incorrect
    It isn't? I thought it was - can you tell us what info you have on DR.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:



    Fact is, DR cannot be increased beyond 53%, because its the true DR you get at 90% defense.


    This is 100% incorrect
    How about enlightening us, instead of throwing out unsupported claims?
    I guess this special tactic of yours is the major reason, why this thread is becoming more and more unmanageable ...

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited March 12


    On the other hand one can argue, that tanks can still take harder hits than dps, due to 20% HP bonus.

    This is by far not the reason why tanks are tankier than DPS. A tanks effective HP is not made up of only HP and the defense stat. Not only there are other stats, and mechanics, but most importantly the mitigation skills that are multiplicative.

    Again, how is that, that this is somehow always "ignored".


    Also there are hard taunts and powers that increase threat (by another factor of 9 or so, as found out by Aragorn). So holding aggro is not really the problem here.

    Not to ruffle any feathers, but the aggro multipliers were worked out ages ago and not by Aragorn.
    Also, at least unless something changed, hard tounts are not multipliers but match the highest in the aggro list + IIRC 10% margin. This is the reason why using hard taunts just before the debuff window is a recipe to lose aggro.


    The problem is, that a typical dps will do 4-5 more damage than the typical tank, but a typical tank can only soak up

    Where are these numbers from? What I know differs. Also where we measure that DPS and Tankiness? Since Tank needs DPS in solo play, but needs tankiness in group content. Taking the damage numbers from group content and tankiness from the solo content will be not truthful wouldn't it?


    Some might feel, this is "balanced". Arguably there is no objective way to decide, what is "balanced" and what not. However, I would rather prefer something along the lines:
    - a typical dps should do ~3 times the damage of the typical tank
    - a typical tank should soak up ~3 times the damage than a typical dps
    This would provide a clearer distinction between the two roles and would make it very difficult for a dps to tank, or vice versa

    Is the goal to solve the speed at which tanks do solo content or group content?

    I personally, do not want for my paladin to do dailies 3 times slower, as such, I prefer a solution that brings the damage up at the cost of tankiness in said solo content. With loadouts or whatnot.

    For group content, do we really see end-game done without tanks?? Just few weeks ago people complained that they can't do content because of the damage, and from what I saw the tanks survive, the rest do not (which is not a problem)
    So if someone can slap some screenshots of VoS, ToMM, Zariel, or hell, even IC, without tanks I'll be grateful. (Obviously M20)
    Maybe the entire game is made up of uber players and I'm the noob here, or I'm just noob compared to average, but I can't do end-game without tanks, nor see anyone ask for that. - This is not mod5 where tanks were liability.

    Or by "do not need tanks" we talk about stuff like elol or VT or somesuch?
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 905 Arc User
    edited March 14
    > @motu999#9953 said:
    > How about enlightening us, instead of throwing out unsupported claims?
    > I guess this special tactic of yours is the major reason, why this thread is becoming more and more unmanageable ...

    I was not aware that throwing out unsupported claims was a right only you had, but thank you very much for actually asking for information to be shared 👍

    Defense provides about 47% damage resistance at 90%. As this is the cap for defense, you can’t get more DR from defense.

    This does not mean that the cap for DR is 47%.

    In trials for example, awareness also contributes to DR.

    0.47*0.47=0.2209

    With both capped you only take 22.1% of the damage, which is a DR of 77.9%

    If that is not enough, you have the flat DR increases from items like Barkhide, Fireburst, Lazaric Gloves (?), the boots with -movespeed/+DR, Ebony pants, The DR on movement ring, Lionheart set, artifact sets, overloads and class features/powers.

    All in all, you can get far more Damage Resistance than the 53% you get from defense.

    Now I would like to see how a DPS paragon is able to come close to tanks survivability.
    Post edited by wilbur626 on
    Elite Whaleboy
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    I want to add, that in part this is why I don't understand why people are so fixated on the 90%. No one said it's optimal, It's just a cap. Yet even half this thread is "They can cap 4 stats" and "They can't cap 4 stats". Not only different stats behave differently, with some are worth to go all in and max, while others give very little and it's optimal to spread, but at the end, stats are only a small cog in an overall system of balances. There are much more important factors.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,896 Arc User
    edited March 12
    wilbur626 said:

    > @motu999#9953 said:

    > How about enlightening us, instead of throwing out unsupported claims?

    > I guess this special tactic of yours is the major reason, why this thread is becoming more and more unmanageable ...


    I was not aware that throwing out unsupported claims was a right only you had, but thank you very much for actually asking for information to be shared 👍


    Defense provides about 53% damage resistance at 90%. As this is the cap for defense, you can’t get more DR from defense.


    This does not mean that the cap for DR is 53%.


    In trials for example, awareness also contributes to DR.


    0.47*0.47=0.2209


    With both capped you only take 22.1% of the damage, which is a DR of 77.9%


    If that is not enough, you have the flat DR increases from items like Barkhide, Fireburst, Lazaric Gloves (?), the boots with -movespeed/+DR, Ebony pants, The DR on movement ring, Lionheart set, artifact sets, overloads and class features/powers.


    All in all, you can get far more Damage Resistance than the 53% you get from defense.


    Now I would like to see how a DPS paragon is able to come close to tanks survivability.

    I was under the impression that DR worked against normal attacks but not CA damage, I figured it was more like;
    if a boss dealt a crit on you; (normal damage-DR) +(CA damage - Awareness %) + (crit damage - crit avoid %). As such, DR from Defence would have no impact on combat advantage or critical strikes.

    This of course was pure assumption - I'm happy to be set straight. But to clarify, are you saying that it's more like:
    Total Damage - (normal DR-awareness-crit avoid).

    I looked up Janne's stat guide and he stated it was purely 'stat - counter-stat' (which is probably where I got the idea from, but this was from mod 16, but I couldn't imagine them re-writing how everything is calculated on top of everything else they've changed.)

    Actually - whilst on the subject does anyone know if Awareness & Crit Avoid use the old or new DR formula? (or some random other arcane method...)

    Sorry, another edit: I could be wrong, but if a tank has 90% defence but (let's say) 80% awareness & 80% crit avoid - under any method of calculation, wouldn't the total damage reduction be less than 53%? I mean, wouldn't all stats have to be at 90% to achieve 53% total reduction from a critical hit? Of course, I'm not factoring in enemy crit severity or combat advantage %. At this point the math starts to get away from me.....
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
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    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


    Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited March 12
    wilbur626 said:

    > @motu999#9953 said:

    > How about enlightening us, instead of throwing out unsupported claims?

    > I guess this special tactic of yours is the major reason, why this thread is becoming more and more unmanageable ...


    I was not aware that throwing out unsupported claims was a right only you had, but thank you very much for actually asking for information to be shared 👍


    Defense provides about 53% damage resistance at 90%. As this is the cap for defense, you can’t get more DR from defense.


    This does not mean that the cap for DR is 53%.


    In trials for example, awareness also contributes to DR.


    0.47*0.47=0.2209


    With both capped you only take 22.1% of the damage, which is a DR of 77.9%


    If that is not enough, you have the flat DR increases from items like Barkhide, Fireburst, Lazaric Gloves (?), the boots with -movespeed/+DR, Ebony pants, The DR on movement ring, Lionheart set, artifact sets, overloads and class features/powers.


    All in all, you can get far more Damage Resistance than the 53% you get from defense.


    Now I would like to see how a DPS paragon is able to come close to tanks survivability.

    So you are using a different definition of DR than I am.
    I would wager, that every single participant in this thread is aware of the fact, that there are other ways than defense to mitigate certain types of damage.
    However, in a D&D context DR (without any additional qualifier such as "DR against xx") is generally understood as the resistance to *all* types of damage.
    It is obvious from the context of this thread and the original post that started this thread, that this was how DR has been used by myself and others that referred to the 53% number -throughout the entire discussion.
    The rather narrow context of this thread was to discuss the changes of the general DR formula, e.g. the formula that calculated the general DR (against all types of damage), given by the defense stat.

    Of course you are free to define and use DR differently, thereby changing the context of the original discussion.
    But if you wish to change the context, then you should state so openly.

    Awareness is a mitigating factor, that nullifies a very specific type of situational damage, namely the additional damage from combat advantage.
    EDIT: In addition, unless something changed awareness is a counter-stat, its not a resistance in the original sense. The mitigating effect of a counter-stat is calculated differently than a %-based resistance. It subtracts from the combat advantage stat of your opponent.

    Except for boss fights, combat advantage damage can be nullified by other means (in this case: positioning). But independent of how one wishes to define the term "DR" or "damage resistance", the context in which it was used in this thread was clear from the beginning and I think you are intelligent enough to have been very well aware of the context.

    Implying that participants in this discussion are "too dumb" to know, that awareness (or deflection or other factors) can reduce damage (or certain types of damage) in addition to defense, is quite an insult. Maybe the insult was not intended ...

    Please try to be a little more non-assuming about the perceived lack of knowledge of the other participants in this discussion.
    Post edited by motu999#9953 on
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited March 12
    armadeonx said:


    I looked up Janne's stat guide and he stated it was purely 'stat - counter-stat' (which is probably where I got the idea from, but this was from mod 16, but I couldn't imagine them re-writing how everything is calculated on top of everything else they've changed.)

    Actually - whilst on the subject does anyone know if Awareness & Crit Avoid use the old or new DR formula? (or some random other arcane method...)

    Sorry, another edit: I could be wrong, but if a tank has 90% defence but (let's say) 80% awareness & 80% crit avoid - under any method of calculation, wouldn't the total damage reduction be less than 53%? I mean, wouldn't all stats have to be at 90% to achieve 53% total reduction from a critical hit? Of course, I'm not factoring in enemy crit severity or combat advantage %. At this point the math starts to get away from me.....

    I'm very short on time these days, but meanwhile if it helps: https://www.nw-hub.com/mechanics/ehpmath
    Also it may be not accurate and obviously needs some restructuring, and obviously the explanations are MIA until times allows.
    Menu on the left, or just go via https://www.nw-hub.com to get to the damage
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    A tanks effective HP is not made up of only HP and the defense stat. Not only there are other stats, and mechanics, but most importantly the mitigation skills that are multiplicative. Again, how is that, that this is somehow always "ignored".

    We all know that. However, it is IMO important to keep a thread narrowly focused on a single issue.
    Otherwise we can discuss everything and completely derail the discussion.
    The narrow focus of this thread was to discuss the implications of the change in the DR resistance formula from defense.
    micky1p00 said:


    Also, at least unless something changed, hard tounts are not multipliers but match the highest in the aggro list + IIRC 10% margin.

    I never said they were multipliers. I can assure you that I know quite well how hard taunts work and where they are useful and where not so much. shrug.
    micky1p00 said:




    The problem is, that a typical dps will do 4-5 more damage than the typical tank, but a typical tank can only soak up

    Where are these numbers from? What I know differs.
    This is my experience in random Q`s. Note that I usually do not run my main through random queues. I generally use alts with account-bound gear, epic companions and mounts. IL is typically around 33-35k. dps stats (power, accuracy, crit chance, crit severity, CA) are typically between 45-50%. There are better and also far worse tanks running RQ's, so I would assume that I am"typical". Comparing my (not great) damage output to the damage output of the dps usually puts me into the 20% range. Very rarely it is 50%, but then the dps struggle. I never struggle to hold aggro, and unless there is a very bad healer I do not die. Might use a potion once in a while to help out the healer.

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 905 Arc User
    > @motu999#9953 said:
    > So you are using a different definition of DR than I am.
    > I would wager, that every single participant in this thread is aware of the fact, that there are other ways than defense to mitigate certain types of damage.
    > However, in a D&D context DR (without any additional qualifier such as "DR against xx") is generally understood as the resistance to *all* types of damage.
    > It is obvious from the context of this thread and the original post that started this thread, that this was how DR has been used by myself and others that referred to the 53% number -throughout the entire discussion.
    > The rather narrow context of this thread was to discuss the changes of the general DR formula, e.g. the formula that calculated the general DR (against all types of damage), given by the defense stat.
    >
    > Of course you are free to define and use DR differently, thereby changing the context of the original discussion.
    > But if you wish to change the context, then you should state so openly.
    >
    > Awareness is a mitigating factor, that nullifies a very specific type of situational damage, namely the additional damage from combat advantage.
    > EDIT: In addition, unless something changed awareness is a counter-stat, its not a resistance in the original sense. The mitigating effect of a counter-stat is calculated differently than a %-based resistance. It subtracts from the combat advantage stat of your opponent.
    >
    > Except for boss fights, combat advantage damage can be nullified by other means (in this case: positioning). But independent of how one wishes to define the term "DR" or "damage resistance", the context in which it was used in this thread was clear from the beginning and I think you are intelligent enough to have been very well aware of the context.
    >
    > Implying that participants in this discussion are "too dumb" to know, that awareness (or deflection or other factors) can reduce damage (or certain types of damage) in addition to defense, is quite an insult. Maybe the insult was not intended ...
    >
    > Please try to be a little more non-assuming about the perceived lack of knowledge of the other participants in this discussion.

    This is why I specified that Damage Reduction is increased by awareness in trials.

    There are many other examples in my original answer that provide a flat DR bonus, what is the reason not to add these to the 53% provided from defense?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:


    This is why I specified that Damage Reduction is increased by awareness in trials.

    Just to be clear about the matter, so that others can understand what happened:

    You changed the definition of DR with a rather obscure reference to "trials" (btw, not all mobs in trials are bosses, so "DR" is not always increased by awareness in trials) from the way it has been openly used in this thread since post one. I defined DR in my original post as the general DR, that works against *all* types of damage, and is determined from the defense stat.

    Using your modified "non-standard" changed version of DR, you then claimed that my statement about DR was "100% incorrect"

    The fact of the matter is, that you - in contrast to myself - you never explicitly stated your personal "non-standard" definition of DR, when you made your false accusation.

    The fact also is, that my statement remains 100% correct. It is based on a clearly stated definition of DR, which is compatible with standard D&D usage of the term. Also, my usage of the term DR was explicitly stated in the first post of this thread.
    wilbur626 said:


    There are many other examples in my original answer that provide a flat DR bonus, what is the reason not to add these to the 53% provided from defense?

    The reason is, that this thread was originally designed - before you came around - to be narrowly focused on the implications of the change of the DR formula, that determines DR from the defense stat. You - for whatever reason - chose to dilute the focus by discussing a lot of other stuff. That can happen in such discussions. I don't really think its productive, but who am I to tell others how to discuss things.

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    So if I understand correctly, the crux of the point is that you want to cap 4 stats because the other 2 roles can do it.
    In essence, to my understanding of system mechanics, you are willing to get less optimal build just for the principal of "if they can, I must too"? Lets trade then, absolution gives 20% multiplicative mitigation. So I get on DPS a multiplicative damage buff of 20% with 8/20 uptime and you can have those 4 90% cap stats...

    ----

    Those 90% caps are gear issue, that's a whole different problem, but more importantly, there is extreme dichotomy in the arguments.

    Thread topic: Defense has issue: Capping Defense yields very little gain, it doesn't worth to cap.
    Few pages later- argument: I must cap all the stats, including said defense.

    Even without going into if the stat should be as is or not, or any other thing, see the issue here?

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited March 12



    1) @wilbur626 has no idea what he's talking about. That 0.47% x 0.47 that he comments is taken from a false initial premise.
    It cannot be assumed that: "as bosses always hit with combat advantage (at least endgame ones), the behavior of awareness will be equal to defense when reducing damage, and voilà, 0.47 * 047. NO¡¡ .... a capped awareness cancels the Combat advantage multiplier, it does not mitigate its damage.

    Semantics.. Investing in either stat will reduce the incoming damage. The question is what is more effective, defense or awareness. btw CA uptime for a boss will be 100%


    3) As I said, there is an CA damage multiplier factor that I don't know how to calculate. but by the name that it has, it is based on the time in which it is fighting with CA. And this is related to what I said in a previous post, about "the need for DPS to have almost everything capped to be effective". It is not because they are useless with no caps (imagine 4 stats at 80%, for example), its because if they do not have damage to kill a boss quickly, the tank dies. Here would be the cause.

    This is purely incorrect. The game has DPS checks, you can't pass those if you can't pass those.


    Therefore, to claim that with Def and Awar capped you are going through the game with 78% damage reduction, is simply lying. First, because it does not mitigate that, and second, because u cant go permanently with 90% awareness.

    A tank needs to survive the tank busters, and hold aggro. If you mean to achieve that by a game of stats making actual game-play skill irrelevant that's your right, but I'm sorry, some consider that pressing a button once or twice before a bit hit should be part of a game. Same way DPS time things to get more out of things, up to full group coordination to get a debuff window, a tank can time what's needed for the tank buster.


    Finally, yes, you are right about the objects. There are many that grant you direct damage reduction if you meet the "X" requirement. And even so, you have confirmed again that the complaints of the tanks are true, because if my build has to be based around items from Barovia or Undermountain ... xD

    And when DPS uses weapon from 2 mods ago, or 5? Or 11?
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 254 Arc User
    edited March 12
    @arkhadiam#2543

    I wouldn't go so far to say that @wilbur626 has no idea what he is talking about.
    We are all struggling to understand the changes to tanking implemented lately, and as far as I know nobody verified or falsified, how awareness currently contributes to damage resistance. The safe way is to assume that the MOD 16 formula was not changed, e.g. that it acts as counter-stat to combat advantage in a subtractive way. In this case you are right and wilbur might be off (EDIT: actually Wilbur is spot-on regarding the effectiveness of awareness, see one of my next posts), but when the devs recently introduced combat advantage for all types of mobs, to make awareness more relevant, they might also have changed the formula.

    Also, wilbur of course has a point, that there are many sources that effectively reduce our damage taken. Most of these, however, are situational. Most of them require a rather good knowledge of the game, that new players do not tend to possess. My focus was on the damage reduction that works for all types of damage. The major source of DR (for all damage taken) comes from defense. For this reason I attempted to focus the discussion on the changes to the DR formula (for all types of damage) calculated from defense.

    It is obvious, that players with a lot of knowledge of their class and the mechanics, such as wilbur, will not have that great difficulties to cope with the changes. Therefore I tend to ignore them, in particular when the argument goes: "I (great player) can handle all content, so everything is fine."

    The recent changes will mostly effect inexperienced players. Not so much in dungeons; there tanks are actually in a very good spot now. With the recent changes in threat management even the worse specced tank should be able to hold aggro and survive big hits (except LoMM and newer dungeons) , if she uses the right (threat generating) powers. The fact that the tank will mitigate less damage due to the change in the DR formula, is not so much the problem of the tank, but of the healer. In public dungeon Qs there is always a healer available and the problem is shifted to the healer.

    The problem is not dungeons, it rather is: How do new tanks perform in landscape content?
    And there it does not look very good. If a new tank struggles to do landscape, e.g. takes much longer than a dps or healer, she will likely abandon playing a tank altogether. Currently my estimate is, that a typical new tank takes ~5 times longer to finish off landscape mobs than a dps of the same IL. This is just an estimate, based on my personal experience. It could be 7 times longer in some situations, 3 times longer in others. In any case, let us assume that the factor 5 is not too far off the mark for new players. This means, the mobs will attack the tank 5 times longer than they would attack the same player when he chooses a dps paragon. The tank will take 5 times the (unmitigated) damage, that a dps of the same IL and experience would - for exactly the same mobs.

    Before the change to the defense formula, the tank could expect to withstand between 4-6 times the damage that a dps of the same (rather low) IL could withstand. Again, an estimate based on personal experience and a comparison between the old and new formula. Now she can only take twice the amount of damage, maybe even less. So the bottom line is:
    - tank (in solo landscape) takes ~5 times the damage, because it takes 5 times longer to kill stuff
    - tank can soak up a factor 2 more damage, still will take 2.5 times the damage of a comparable dps
    - tank not only takes 5 times longer to do landscape stuff (solo), she also needs more potions, scrolls etc.
    Well balanced? I don't think so.

    The reason why I am so much focusing on defense, and the DR versus *all* types of damage that comes from defense, is the following:
    New players must focus first and foremost on the damage reduction that applies to all types of damage.
    Only when their general DR (from defense) is in a good spot, they can start to increase their mitigation against the more situational types of damage. These players are hit hardest by the change in the formula.
    Post edited by motu999#9953 on
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