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Tank's defense formula - a small modification to make tanking more relevant

motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 253 Arc User
edited March 4 in Player Feedback (PC)
It seems that tanks got hit hard with the combat changes. A very active thread in the General Discussion (PC) Section of the forum seems to suggest, that many "old" tank players are very upset with the new combat system, a couple might have left the game.

A major part of the criticism about the new combat system for tanks is, that the tank damage reduction formula has been changed from

old damage multiplier: (1 - defense% / 100%)
new damage multiplier: 1/(1 + defense% / 100%)

With the "old" formula a tank with 90% defense would get a damage multiplier of
x =1 - 90%/100% = 1-0.9 = 0.1
In other words, the tank only takes 10% of the unmitigated damage, the rest (90%) is mitigated by the high defense rating

With the new formula this has changed dramatically.
Now a tank with 90% defense gets a damage multiplier of
x = 1/1 + 90%/100%) = 1/1.9 ~ 0.53
In other words, the tank takes 53% of the unmitigated damage, only 47% is mitigated.

I understand why the formula was changed:
Taking only 10% of the "normal" damage at the defense cap of 90% is a bit over the top,
in particular if a players defense percentage can be increased temporarily beyond 90% by special effects or powers

However, now taking more than half of the damage (53%) at max defense makes tanks far less survivable than ever before.
In fact, it does not provide any incentive to maximize defense, because 70% defense still results in
x ~0.59

In other words, the benefit from going to 70% defense (taking 59% of the normal damage) to 90% defense (taking 53% of the normal damage) is marginal.

As I said, I understand why the change was made, because the "old" formula had the non-desirable effect or "increasing return".
With the old formula, the closer you got to the 90% cap, the more damage reduction you would actually get for every % point added.
The new formula ensures, that there is a "decreasing return", when you approach the cap. This is how it should be.

But on the other hand
- if a maxed out tank still takes 53% of the damage,
- and the dps typically take 65-70% of the damage
the tank takes almost as much damage as the dps.
In fact, currently a maxed out tank at 90% defense still takes 75% of the damage, that a typical dps would take (with 45-50% defense).
Tanks are damage-wise far too close to the dps, in order to tank effectively in difficult content.
IMO a maxed out tank should at least be able to withstand three times the damage that an average dps can.


My suggestion therefore is the following MODIFICATION of the damage formula (for tanks only):
If you change it
- from x = 1/(1 + defense%/100%)
- to x_mod = 1/(1 + 3*defense/100%)

you would still have diminishing returns close to the cap, but a maxed out tank with 90% defense would have a damage multiplier of
x = 1/(1 + 3*0.9) = 1/3.8 ~ 0.26
If you compare this to the damage multiplier of a "typical" dps at 50% defense with x = 1/(1 + 0.5) ~ 0.66
a maxed out tank could withstand somewhat less than three times the damage an average dps would do.
This is IMO the right proportion, and it will make it easier to balance difficult group content, that requires a real damage soaking tank.

«1345678

Comments

  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited March 4
    Messing with Defense stat would throw the 'balance' off between all stats. I'd rather see something like:


    Tanks gain up to 20% damage and damage reduction as their threat level increases.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,173 Arc User
    Or just give tanks 20% damage resistance along with their 20% extra hp.
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Member Posts: 253 Arc User

    Messing with Defense stat would throw the 'balance' off between all stats. I'd rather see something like:


    Tanks gain up to 20% damage and damage reduction as their threat level increases.

    Sure, there are other - maybe better - ways to address the current problem.
    But the problem remains, that the difference in damage soaking capability between dps and tanks is too small.
    Also, there is no real incentive to increase defense beyond 70%

  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    > @motu999#9953 said:
    > Sure, there are other - maybe better - ways to address the current problem.
    > But the problem remains, that the difference in damage soaking capability between dps and tanks is too small.
    > Also, there is no real incentive to increase defense beyond 70%


    Thank you for this! It’s hard to make folks understand what an impact the new system has especially when our hit points have been reduced by a third as well.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    Buffing tanks even more will only result in DPS/Tank hybrid builds (possible even with current formula) and a huge gap between best in slot and mid-level tanks.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,227 Arc User
    edited March 5
    wilbur626 said:

    Buffing tanks even more will only result in DPS/Tank hybrid builds (possible even with current formula) and a huge gap between best in slot and mid-level tanks.

    I don't see how dps tanks can be a thing now that all proper dps classes have a base 20% damage increase over tanks plus power as their main forte. Anyone attempting this would be a winning combo of 'bad tank/bad dps'.

    If a Fighter wants to run as dps they just switch their loadout so your comment would mainly apply to Paladins. As you run a Fighter, you must be aware of the huge increase in incoming damage and the reduction of soaking ability compared to dps classes. This puts ALL tanks just a small percentage away from being unnecessary for private queue runs.

    Especially as the Barbarian and Warlock have Awareness as their defensive forte.

    I was in a RQ lomm run the other day on my cleric (healer) and we had a 30k tank (fighter) who couldn't hold aggro and got lost at some point so he couldn't reach the rest of us waiting at the Boreworm door. After 10 minutes of waiting we kicked him and the rest of us went in and killed the boss.

    By the time we reached Trobriand, a replacement tank arrived: a 30k Pally who was just as bad as the previous Fighter. He also couldn't maintain aggro but still managed to die even with me having him flagged. In the end everyone just ignored the tank and killed Trobriand.
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  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited March 5
    armadeonx said:

    wilbur626 said:

    Buffing tanks even more will only result in DPS/Tank hybrid builds (possible even with current formula) and a huge gap between best in slot and mid-level tanks.

    I don't see how dps tanks can be a thing now that all proper dps classes have a base 20% damage increase over tanks plus power as their main forte. Anyone attempting this would be a winning combo of 'bad tank/bad dps'.

    If a Fighter wants to run as dps they just switch their loadout so your comment would mainly apply to Paladins. As you run a Fighter, you must be aware of the huge increase in incoming damage and the reduction of soaking ability compared to dps classes. This puts ALL tanks just a small percentage away from being unnecessary for private queue runs.

    Especially as the Barbarian and Warlock have Awareness as their defensive forte.


    This is not a bad tank, and a better DPS than most of the DPS players. Increasing survivability would only increase the demand for speccs like this, resulting in less demand for actual tanks.

    If warlocks and barbarian DPS can tank, why are we not seeing TOMM and Zariel clears with 8 DPS and 2 heal ? How many examples can you provide with 4 DPS + 1 healer VoS clears ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,227 Arc User
    So you actually made the thing you're against?

    I have to say those are impressive stats - I'm guessing fully potted etc, but still goes to show what's still possible when you max TIL. Funnily enough, I've also seen maxed dps players that have defensive stats that are just as impressive as your offensive stats. They can easily take a hit like a tank. Still, if they can take the hits AND have a 20% base DPS boost over your tank, who needs even the impressive tank that you've posted?

    Are we actually at that point yet? I don't think so as it would require the entire team to be built that effectively - the point I'm making is that we aren't far from it and as Cryptic put much more focus into dps than tanks, it's likely we will slide that way over the next year or so.

    I've seen people forming TOMM runs excluding tanks but not Zariel (yet) but as I didn't participate I didn't mention it as I have no first hand knowledge of how it went. I only mention what I experience personally.
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  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    IMO the formula works well and tanks only need a bit more HP and the FIX TO ALL THE DMG REDUCTION EFFECTS.

    Now we live in a false illusion with some items / features giving dmg reduction that DOESNT WORK, and you feel save and BAM, the big hit kills you. Only few of them work.
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  • datarider#1036 datarider Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    troll wilbur626 is showing a fake picture :D

    IMO the formula works well and tanks only need a bit more HP and the FIX TO ALL THE DMG REDUCTION EFFECTS.

    Now we live in a false illusion with some items / features giving dmg reduction that DOESNT WORK, and you feel save and BAM, the big hit kills you. Only few of them work.

    you mean they need to fix some items/powers? :D they may succeed in fixing one thing and in the process they will break a few more... as history is telling us - only devs in pung are worse than the ones here :D
    wanting a fix from them is madness /you know - repeat the same thing and wanting diff result/
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited March 5
    armadeonx said:

    So you actually made the thing you're against?

    I made this as a proof of concept and for running random Qs.

    In this setup Im running 6x indomitable runestones and a summoned companion, making it possible to tank AND out-DPS 90% of the playerbase.

    Increasing tank survivability will only enable more players to run setups like these, even in the hardest content. This will effectively remove normal tanks from the "meta", forcing tanks that are gearing up to do another rebuild.

    DPS is also lacking threat management skills, making it very hard to effectively replace a tank in content where aggro is key.

    With the removal of the stacking of Armor Break, there will be very few groups left with high enough damage output to skip phases in trials, resulting in need for tanks.

    I would leave tank DR/Survivability as it is, and rather focus on proper ingame tutorials to avoid experiences like the one you had in LOMM. With the extreme boost to tank threat generation, inability to hold aggro could only come from lack of knowledge.

    If anything should be changed, it would be the DPS paragons ability to reach high levels of the most effective defensive stats (Defense and Awareness).
    Elite Whaleboy
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,227 Arc User
    edited March 5
    wilbur626 said:

    armadeonx said:

    So you actually made the thing you're against?

    I made this as a proof of concept and for running random Qs.

    In this setup Im running 6x indomitable runestones and a summoned companion, making it possible to tank AND out-DPS 90% of the playerbase.

    ...

    If anything should be changed, it would be the DPS paragons ability to reach high levels of the most effective defensive stats (Defense and Awareness).
    On the 1st point - well, that's only because 90% of the player base is not max TIL. Any DPS at your TIL and with full knowledge of their class will out DPS you by at least 20% (due to the class bonus) I know from personal experience that the at-wills and encounters on the vanguard fighter are not particularly competitive in terms of magnitudes and cooldowns.

    On the 2nd point - you know, I thought of that too - but if they go that route, you can be sure they'll also cap the most effective offense stats for tanks & healers.

    I'd be cool with that except for 1 point: the Paladin being the only class that doesn't have a dps loadout for soloing. I know from your previous posts on Paladin related threads that this doesn't bother you, it's pretty clear from your history that you are anti-paladin. I'm wondering if you're still sore about the old Bubble period when Fighters weren't wanted?

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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,227 Arc User
    Sorry, I missed the point about ingame tutorials - you're right on that point, I could tell that the Fighter and Paladin were both out of their depth(s) and didn't know how to run a tank, let alone the specifics of the dungeon we were in. A class-specific tutorial phase where players are confronted with scenarios made just for their class would help them a lot - especially if it gave a score and rewards for hitting a 'success %'
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  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited March 5
    armadeonx said:

    I know from your previous posts on Paladin related threads that this doesn't bother you, it's pretty clear from your history that you are anti-paladin. I'm wondering if you're still sore about the old Bubble period when Fighters weren't wanted?

    Hehe, what have I said that makes me anti-paladin ? I dont have enough knowledge about paladins to leave any kind of feedback on the class, so I only discuss general tank/Fighter specific stuff. I have never experienced not being wanted based on the class I play, so I'm not able to relate to the no being wanted thing.

    When I said "If anything should be changed, it would be the DPS paragons ability to reach high levels of the most effective defensive stats (Defense and Awareness).", I mean removing the most effective defensive stats from fortes and self-buffs, not capping in any way.
    Adjusting available companion ACB slots for DPS paragons and defensive stats on DPS centric gear would also be an alternative.

    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User

    armadeonx said:

    wilbur626 said:

    Buffing tanks even more will only result in DPS/Tank hybrid builds (possible even with current formula) and a huge gap between best in slot and mid-level tanks.

    Same arguments were made prior to Mod16 release.
    While still in beta, two forumers one CW/Dc and one GF both respected community members flood trhe forums with the current argument;

    "If vanguard does not get a DPS reduction, a Vanguard can make a dps build and taking advantage of its hp bonus and tankiness run ahead and dominate the DPS chart.This must stop".

    You can figure out these too.... Well aparently they had made ZERO testing before spreading this nonsense.Zero.
    Zero!!!!!!
    But cause they had a good image as good testers their opinion spread. The Vanguard took a massive -30% inherent damage defficiency while its magnitude damage encounters reduced.
    One month later mod16 went live and one of them complained that his tank did zero damage. Then he figured out one month before he had not even loaded preview but he was spreading roumors in the forums.
    then same player asked for buffs. Well too late.

    Shall I put names?? or links?

    Bottom line : trust none. That a forumer has a good tracking record of testing or supplying data does not mean he cannot make mistakes.

    Links would be nice
    Elite Whaleboy
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited March 5
    wilbur626 said:

    >

    Links would be nice

    No need to dig in wilbur..
    Rjc is a good guy and tester.Ask him when he comes on line.Ask him if he said or not that a vanguard dps build will dominate the charts.
    if he does not remember i will dig in the two year old threads.
    Just ask him,we are in the same channel.
    And the cw was ofcourse Sharp.

    Ask @rjc9000 and @thefabricant

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    I fail to understand how this is relevant to this discussion and proposed increase of defensive stats for tanks tho @hypervoreian
    Elite Whaleboy
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited March 5
    What I'm hearing is that the meta is maximum DPS (as long as it's survivable). Soooo... cook the tank class into the meta.
    While a tank character holds aggro:

    * The tank receives 10% damage reduction from targets when holding top threat.

    * All of the tank's allies gain a 10% damage increase against enemies targeting a tank.
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    Why so? really?
    The thread is about increase defense of tanks.
    you step in with counterargument that if we increase defense then we will have DPS tank builds.
    I reply same argument was made years ago and it was null.
    Why you have difficulty?

    Armadeonx answered to your argument in a precise manner.Your IL allows you to put offensive stats.But your IL and your wealth cause of accumulated gear and experience to choose so.
    Even so at your Il a DPS player can make the same while having aswell +20% damage.This proves nothing.

    But you are one player. The rest hundreds of tanks in NW are suffering.All channels are asking tanks that are nowhere to be found cause the game is unrewarding towards tanks.For reasons i posted in another thread. Too much stress ,bad TTk ratio, lower defenses.
    the devs are not stupid. 95% of players are DPS and game is cattering to them.
    Devs know exactly what is going on. But they have to "balance" difficulty and gameplay. And they are doing so by displeasing the less part of the players the 5% that are tanks.

    Isnt it obvious? imagining instead of reducing tanks defenses reducing dps output of dps.Just imagine the flame war.
    they would had come into same result as concerning game difficulty.
    But is one thing to HAMSTER of 95% people and another to HAMSTER off 5%.
    And they just vote for the second.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,062 Arc User



    * All of the tank's allies gain a 10% damage increase against enemies targeting a tank.

    We already have this concept and is Combat Advantage. No need a new mechanic for this. You can tweak tank powers and class features to make them more relevant.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
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  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    edited March 5
    My argument is that increasing tank defenses will render DPS not needed.
    There is no lack of defensive stats for tanks, there is lack of understanding of the new system.
    Increasing tank defensive stats will enable tanks to build 100% offensively and have zero need for DPS in endgame content.

    Limiting DPS paragons ability to stack defensive stats will make DPS more dependant of tanks, and tanks will still need DPS to clear content.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    Another elegant solution for struggling tanks would be utilizing equip bonuses. I suggest adding a white cape with a big red “L” (for Lathander) with the equip bonus “ -XX% damage taken, unable to summon a striker companion while wearing”
    Elite Whaleboy
  • melechestmelechest Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    The problems will persist if they have stats tied to item level, companions, companions and mounts.
    The only way to make tanks relevant, along with increasing the relevance for tanks, it to tie everything to gear.
    Like, tanks are normally wearing heavy armor which gives more resistances and HP, DPS wear light or medium gear, medium giving a bit of defenses and a bit of damage, light gives more damage and mobility but low defenses. But limit what gear can be used depending on class and role. For example a tank fighter can choose between heavy and medium but a DPS fighter can choose between medium and light. So any player will have to choose, high defenses but low damage or low defenses and high damage. Only way to get everyone to do their job and only that.
    This way tanks can get high resistances and HP without the DPS being able to.
    Also lower the damage of the DPS, as long as there are players that can clear a group in mere seconds, even without anyone being there, or kill bosses within a couple of minutes the game will be unhealthy and tanks will rarely ever be truly needed and not just to get the required group for randoms or a punching bag for the bosses in IC, VoS, tomm and zariel.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 380 Arc User

    troll wilbur626 is showing a fake picture :D

    IMO the formula works well and tanks only need a bit more HP and the FIX TO ALL THE DMG REDUCTION EFFECTS.

    Now we live in a false illusion with some items / features giving dmg reduction that DOESNT WORK, and you feel save and BAM, the big hit kills you. Only few of them work.

    you mean they need to fix some items/powers? :D they may succeed in fixing one thing and in the process they will break a few more... as history is telling us - only devs in pung are worse than the ones here :D
    wanting a fix from them is madness /you know - repeat the same thing and wanting diff result/
    I don't believe it's a fake image, it must be in a group where everyone is using Feral Raptor and Tamed Raptor and with DPS potions plus other external buff's it must have reached those statuses.

    Everything I've been reading in the forum about the state of tank's leads me to believe that players don't like a minimum of difficulty being implemented in the game. And as the darthpotater mentioned there are still corrections to come, so be patient and stop asking for nerfs or more changes than there have ever been.
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    It’s not increased difficulty that’s the problem, it’s the mathematics now work against Tanks. They HAVE to have high item levels to have hit points. They then HAVE to have Max comps and gear to survive.
    A DPS can more easily sacrifice levels to balance and play without maxed mounts, gear or comps.

    You have to PLAY to get the stuff, if you can’t it’s SOL. Tanks now can’t solo and we arnt made to dodge out of the red. So there’s lots of dying. Not fun.
    So some quality of life changes need to be made because it’s not like they set out to bone Tanks.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    > @admiralwarlord#3792 said:
    > I don't believe it's a fake image, it must be in a group where everyone is using Feral Raptor and Tamed Raptor and with DPS potions plus other external buff's it must have reached those statuses.
    >
    > Everything I've been reading in the forum about the state of tank's leads me to believe that players don't like a minimum of difficulty being implemented in the game. And as the darthpotater mentioned there are still corrections to come, so be patient and stop asking for nerfs or more changes than there have ever been.

    The screenshot is of my solo AoE adventure zone loadout. It’s neither fake or in full raptor group. There are zero buffs other than self-buffs and consumables in play.

    Statements like the one @datarider#1036 made is the reason I claim that lack of system understanding is the biggest issue for tanks at the moment.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 380 Arc User
    @wilbur626 So it got even easier to comment, since it's a build in which you're only tank by your choice, which leads me to ask why you didn't create a DPS loadout? I have found it uncomfortable to play in my Tank just because it does not have a DPS loadout which made me comment on another topic or this one (i don't even remember anymore) that the OP class should have a DPS path, since the difference between 0 and the gain of 20% is absurd. But currently few care about this difference, as almost everyone runs with their super buffed pokemons and still complain that the game is difficult.
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    Yeah that’s it.

    All the complaints are from players who don’t have the gear or resources or knowledge to play their characters. You know, the average player.

    Must be why so many Tanks are quitting and the Ques are getting longer.

    So keep blaming them and telling them to learn their characters and to play better.

    Because that’s helping.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    @admiralwarlord#3792

    As I stated before ; I made this as a proof of concept and for running random Qs.

    I have adjusted the setup even more after that screenshot was taken, and now comfortably tank all content (including VoS) with it.

    I simply don’t like playing Dreadnaught fighter, so having a tank build that is very effective for solo AND grouped content fits me very well.

    This setup can easily be used on both Paladin and Barbarian tank paragons, so the “need” for a paladin DPS paragon is just another product of lacking knowledge.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    > @silente07#2597 said:
    > Yeah that’s it.
    >
    > All the complaints are from players who don’t have the gear or resources or knowledge to play their characters. You know, the average player.
    >
    > Must be why so many Tanks are quitting and the Ques are getting longer.
    >
    > So keep blaming them and telling them to learn their characters and to play better.
    >
    > Because that’s helping.
    >
    >
    >

    The game provides what is needed to get gear/resources.

    The game does NOT provide a way for new/average players to understand how the combat system works.
    Elite Whaleboy
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