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Celestial Weapon set

synyster3006synyster3006 Member Posts: 57 Arc User
Here we go again,
On preview threads we already made several suggestions, and also we said not to nerf lionheart set, but nothing changed.

I consider this a main issue, since that many of us that spent a lot of time obtaining new weapons in Zariel, can’t use them, since we get better performance from Lionhearts.

Those weapons are supposed to be best in slot, and must be so (untill next Trial comes)

Unfortunately just removing the cooldown isn’t enough, since that after 30 seconds (TOMM or Zariel phase/transition for example) you need to stack back from scratch. And since the max damage/healing you get when stack is ready is the same as lionheart at full stamina, you loose too much.

There are several ways to solve that problem, and was already put on the table
- Add at-wills as source of 5 stack making or reduce the number of stacks
- Increase damage/heals up to 10% (or 12% if you plan to restore Lionheart set to its original 10%)

All objections like “lionheart is worse since you lose your benefits after you dodge”: the main problem is that both sets has the same % bonus with like 0.05 difference from IL
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Comments

  • dracory1#6808 dracory1 Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    There is no incentive for Tanks to run Zariel anymore.
    Set is only DPS oriented and even then it is not the best in some cases, AoE for example - you will NOT proc 5 encounters in group or solo content without everything dying, the only place where Celestial is actually procced in AoE is incoming Vault of Stars and currently running Harvester of Nightmares.

    Zariel. Weapons. Are. Supposed. To. Be. The. Best.

    That was the case since mod 19 was released, hardest trial for top players for best items in the game. Currently it's either 2nd or 3rd place item for DPS, 2nd for tanks and healers over lionheart.

    Mirage weapons are an issue over all, though.

    My propositions are as following:
    Illusions spawned via Mirage set bonus should only deal a set amount of magnitude damage and then disappear - sort of like Rogue's Shadow Flurry.

    Lionheart bonus should return to 10%, it was not a smart idea to reduce it in my opinion - Mastercraft weapons atm can give 10% to OD, OH and -10% to ID if 5 people wear these, even 4 sets is enough to outclass Lionheart, considering the item level decrease is too low to be even compared to 2% gained.

    Celestial bonus should have the biggest change - just 7.5% to damage and OH is not fine. -7.5% ID should be also added. In addition, the stacks required to proc the bonus should be reduced to 3 and the set bonus should be able to be procced twice. So, if you constantly fight, you'll easily keep up stacks and will at least give you something in content other than Vault of Stars, Harvester or longer boss fights. 15% max gain should be appropriate for something that's supposed to be the best, at least for now - since we don't have much else than set bonus.

    Item level gain/loss does not matter when it's up to 1k and players want to feel progress rather than be rewarded with nothing but self accomplishment. Do I need to remind that Zariel is punishing and often results in loss rather than gain? Every death = a watermelon or caprese, possibly scroll of life. Top players didn't farm that trial for a shiny new mount and with current system we can certainly see how it affected queues. Before changes - 4 Zariel instances was a maximum, maybe 3 times a month. Now? Barely 1 instance active a day at once.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    > @nisckis said:
    > everyone who is calling for nerfs to other weapons, buffs to Celestial (like upping it to 10%/15%), or undoing the Lionheart change, probably should be thinking about mid and long term.
    > As a fast example, let say they make Lionheart 10% again and Celestial 15%, then what would you do with next weapons? give a 20%? and then 25%? and next ones 30%?
    > The problem with weapons is that, with current stats rework, new ones are not a big improvement if their bonuses are similar so people could just go and farm the easiest one to get, and the hardest one with similar output will just be there for a little improvement and for bragging right (like rank V collars).
    >
    > So, personally I would stop asking for all that nerfs and changes, and just enjoy the game and the new changes.

    The worst suggestion lol. End game players will not, and should not be happy with a poor reward system like this. These changes are necessary to improve the incentive structure to run content.
  • highlyunstablehighlyunstable Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 333 Arc User
    jman3l... FYI... there ARE other weapon in game that DO give 10% damage that are fairly easy to obtain. With the way this new system works, higher IL is not always the best so why in the world would we need to train for weeks to do ToMM and Zariel if there is no true incentive.

    Weapons WERE the incentive... they were the backbone to us, as players, to achieve better DPS/Healing/Tanking. You see, the simple concept is... we level up, as we do we get stronger, then we run harder content to get even BETTER gear/weapons etc. so that we can run the even harder content.

    By making the Celestial and Lionhearts the same or, in some cases less desirable to have then the Mastercraft ones.. those dungeons will all but die and those that truly wanted to learn it... well, good luck finding a group as NOT a whole of players will find a need, want nor desire to run it.

    It will be just more garbage content in the game that NO ONE runs, ( Like ZCM) and then.. of course, they will bring out harder content with weapons that will do absolutely NOTHING for us so.. no one will run that as well.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    jman3l... FYI... there ARE other weapon in game that DO give 10% damage that are fairly easy to obtain. With the way this new system works, higher IL is not always the best so why in the world would we need to train for weeks to do ToMM and Zariel if there is no true incentive.

    Weapons WERE the incentive... they were the backbone to us, as players, to achieve better DPS/Healing/Tanking. You see, the simple concept is... we level up, as we do we get stronger, then we run harder content to get even BETTER gear/weapons etc. so that we can run the even harder content.

    By making the Celestial and Lionhearts the same or, in some cases less desirable to have then the Mastercraft ones.. those dungeons will all but die and those that truly wanted to learn it... well, good luck finding a group as NOT a whole of players will find a need, want nor desire to run it.

    It will be just more garbage content in the game that NO ONE runs, ( Like ZCM) and then.. of course, they will bring out harder content with weapons that will do absolutely NOTHING for us so.. no one will run that as well.

    Imo I would put celestials at 12%, reduce stacks to 3 to proc, and add DR, but we won't get that. So 10% + the tiny item level damage increase will help and its probably a reasonable request.
  • synyster3006synyster3006 Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    In a long term point of view, Weapons needs some changes in general.

    Personally, the only thing that comes to my mind that could fix that big problem is to add some "Base Damage" to the main hand weapon, damage that will directly be added to the one that comes from IL.

    So that, for example (don't take into account those numbers, are just to explain a possible progression)
    • Blessed: 500
    • Lionheart: 550
    • Celestial: 600
    should be something around a 10% damage/healing increase between each one.
    That should grant a real worthy progression for all the upcoming modules that will bring new weapons (most of if those will come from new Trials)
  • dracory1#6808 dracory1 Member Posts: 74 Arc User

    In a long term point of view, Weapons needs some changes in general.

    Personally, the only thing that comes to my mind that could fix that big problem is to add some "Base Damage" to the main hand weapon, damage that will directly be added to the one that comes from IL.

    So that, for example (don't take into account those numbers, are just to explain a possible progression)

    • Blessed: 500
    • Lionheart: 550
    • Celestial: 600
    should be something around a 10% damage/healing increase between each one.
    That should grant a real worthy progression for all the upcoming modules that will bring new weapons (most of if those will come from new Trials)
    The problem with idea above is that it'll require putting base damage twice in case of rangers and 1/2 of base damage in case of rogues again. And last time we had rangers being able to do twice their at-will damage due to formula combining base damage of bow and axes.
  • synyster3006synyster3006 Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited February 1

    In a long term point of view, Weapons needs some changes in general.

    Personally, the only thing that comes to my mind that could fix that big problem is to add some "Base Damage" to the main hand weapon, damage that will directly be added to the one that comes from IL.

    So that, for example (don't take into account those numbers, are just to explain a possible progression)

    • Blessed: 500
    • Lionheart: 550
    • Celestial: 600
    should be something around a 10% damage/healing increase between each one.
    That should grant a real worthy progression for all the upcoming modules that will bring new weapons (most of if those will come from new Trials)
    The problem with idea above is that it'll require putting base damage twice in case of rangers and 1/2 of base damage in case of rogues again. And last time we had rangers being able to do twice their at-will damage due to formula combining base damage of bow and axes.
    No.... in the previous system we had base damage that came directly from weapon, in this system it comes from IL.
    This "base damage" should be treated just like all the other statistics. In this way you can keep it in the main-hand only, we won't ever have problems as the ones you was talking about.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    In a long term point of view, Weapons needs some changes in general.

    Personally, the only thing that comes to my mind that could fix that big problem is to add some "Base Damage" to the main hand weapon, damage that will directly be added to the one that comes from IL.

    So that, for example (don't take into account those numbers, are just to explain a possible progression)

    • Blessed: 500
    • Lionheart: 550
    • Celestial: 600
    should be something around a 10% damage/healing increase between each one.
    That should grant a real worthy progression for all the upcoming modules that will bring new weapons (most of if those will come from new Trials)
    The problem with idea above is that it'll require putting base damage twice in case of rangers and 1/2 of base damage in case of rogues again. And last time we had rangers being able to do twice their at-will damage due to formula combining base damage of bow and axes.
    Its a suggestion at least. The point that Aster and I are making in this thread is that, probably close to 50+ end gamers have asked for a Celestial weapons buff, and we've been completely ignored. Not to mention that tanks are totally screwed over by these weapons and have 0 use for them.
  • mathnotevenonce#2925 mathnotevenonce Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    I literally just got my weapons on console yesterday. 8 of us in our trial group did. It's sad that all this effort and practice will result in a weapon set that sits in the bank. It really needs to be buffed.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    I literally just got my weapons on console yesterday. 8 of us in our trial group did. It's sad that all this effort and practice will result in a weapon set that sits in the bank. It really needs to be buffed.

    Yeah, every single person that actually plays the game agrees they need a buff, except for the developers it seems :c
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,360 Arc User
    noone say something about earthen or drowned shore weapons
  • mercbenz360mercbenz360 Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited February 2
    I just got my soot lion and there is ZERO reason to run Zariel. The loot is criminally awful and requires a special key.

    If the devs think Celestials are BiS with their "fix" by nerfing Lionheart, they simply don't play this game. Everyone pops artifacts/debuffs and full rotations at the start of phased trials and bosses. Celestial weapons mean you won't have your 7.5% damage add up during this which is when you need it. Just such a poor decision because you could sacrifice that before with the higher weapon damage but now there's no reason to make that sacrifice.

    I'm far more variety and weapon choices. I'm for rewarding people that put in the time and effort while not gatekeeping to only the elites but this is just nuts. I've never seen any MMO screw their players for completing the hardest content. It's just mind boggling. Currently my Celestials are used to farm dread ring, motes, and river district - all years old zones. This is probably the most tone deaf part of the whole update. Gee can't wait to go through the new dungeon or next trial for Jack squat too.

    And no sadly Zariel isn't worth playing for the fun of it. It's an well designed trial but it's the same sequence every time and super repetitive.
  • drago#9606 drago Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited February 3

    Personally, the only thing that comes to my mind that could fix that big problem is to add some "Base Damage" to the main hand weapon, damage that will directly be added to the one that comes from IL.

    This is absolutely what needs to happen IMO. The set bonus should be secondary, otherwise % will keep needing to be increased to improve on what came before, which will lead to out of control numbers again in the end (that's also a problem with the new % implementation in general, I think - higher IL needs to drive an item being better, and bonus should be a secondary boost).

    Weapons should have a base damage booster that increases with item level, and ensures weapons released as part of the hardest content are always the most desirable.

    Of course, this has a knock-on effect, which is that base damage needs to be "scaled" in scaled content, and not capped. Otherwise the base damage increase would do nothing in most content. This is an underlying issue with the current system, though one that seems relatively easy to fix, for example by adding a reduced amount of base damage in scaled content for every 1k IL you're above the IL cap for that content.

    @noworries#8859
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    edited February 5
    @noworries#8859 please consider adding that small diminished increase in base damage scaling in scaled content from the above post^. It can be SUPER tiny, but it should be there.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    @noworries#8859 daily reminder to please take this as a priority. All end gamers are leaving and playing other games for three main reasons: celestials not being a good incentive to run ZC (aka buff them please and add DR), actives being too good / augments needing buffs, downscaling issues (add CR to collars please).
  • raziel2004#7353 raziel2004 Member Posts: 88 Arc User
    Just change every weapon %dmg to % power then everyone can shut up n focus more on IL. This getting boring already.
  • synyster3006synyster3006 Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    > @raziel2004#7353 said:
    > Just change every weapon %dmg to % power then everyone can shut up n focus more on IL. This getting boring already.

    What’s boring? Giving feedbacks? It’s a shame seeing all server in River District gathering Mirage weapons

    Without talking about Active Companions and Collars CR huge problems...
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 308 Arc User
    edited February 11

    By making the Celestial and Lionhearts the same or, in some cases less desirable to have then the Mastercraft ones.. those dungeons will all but die and those that truly wanted to learn it... well, good luck finding a group as NOT a whole of players will find a need, want nor desire to run it.

    I just want to say that reaching MW5 is quite a costly time-consumming process (it's also the case for MW3, though obviously "cheaper" and shorter). Maybe "easy" for you to buy the weapons on the AH, but it was definitely not a simple task for the artisan who had crafted it...
    I do think the best weapons in the crafting system deserve to be among the best weapons in the game. I find it way easier to stuff-up, then train, then farm a dungeon/trials for the weapons than to get all the way to MW5 in the needed professions to craft by myself my own weapons. (though i did neither recently :P, i don't like trials so nope for ToMM or Zariel repeatedly, don't really like farming something again and again, so i'm also yet to get my 2nd profession up to MW5 something like 2,5 years after starting to grind in mod15 the ingredients for my first MW1^^)

    But maybe the real problem is the lack of connexion between endgame and crafting system...
    would be interesting to try in Neverwinter on the top endgame last trial/dungeon : no more direct weapon/equipement drop, only ingredients used in crafting the new weapons/equipements. This way, economically, endgamers completing the hardest content will either for their own weapons do direct negociations with artisans, and/or feed ingredients on the AH to make AD, and crafters will advertise their services or buy those ingredients in the AH to transform them in equipement and sell back on AH (with margin obviously).
    A simple model revolving on a tiny supply-chain and involving players able to finish the endgame "fighting" level, and players who are able to finish endgame "crafting" level... both somehow interdependant (and you can put whatever intermediate things in between).
    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    > @dracory1#6808 said:
    > There is no incentive for Tanks to run Zariel anymore.
    > Set is only DPS oriented and even then it is not the best in some cases, AoE for example - you will NOT proc 5 encounters in group or solo content without everything dying, the only place where Celestial is actually procced in AoE is incoming Vault of Stars and currently running Harvester of Nightmares.
    >
    > Zariel. Weapons. Are. Supposed. To. Be. The. Best.
    >
    > That was the case since mod 19 was released, hardest trial for top players for best items in the game. Currently it's either 2nd or 3rd place item for DPS, 2nd for tanks and healers over lionheart.
    >
    > Mirage weapons are an issue over all, though.
    >
    > My propositions are as following:
    > Illusions spawned via Mirage set bonus should only deal a set amount of magnitude damage and then disappear - sort of like Rogue's Shadow Flurry.
    >
    > Lionheart bonus should return to 10%, it was not a smart idea to reduce it in my opinion - Mastercraft weapons atm can give 10% to OD, OH and -10% to ID if 5 people wear these, even 4 sets is enough to outclass Lionheart, considering the item level decrease is too low to be even compared to 2% gained.
    >
    > Celestial bonus should have the biggest change - just 7.5% to damage and OH is not fine. -7.5% ID should be also added. In addition, the stacks required to proc the bonus should be reduced to 3 and the set bonus should be able to be procced twice. So, if you constantly fight, you'll easily keep up stacks and will at least give you something in content other than Vault of Stars, Harvester or longer boss fights. 15% max gain should be appropriate for something that's supposed to be the best, at least for now - since we don't have much else than set bonus.
    >
    > Item level gain/loss does not matter when it's up to 1k and players want to feel progress rather than be rewarded with nothing but self accomplishment. Do I need to remind that Zariel is punishing and often results in loss rather than gain? Every death = a watermelon or caprese, possibly scroll of life. Top players didn't farm that trial for a shiny new mount and with current system we can certainly see how it affected queues. Before changes - 4 Zariel instances was a maximum, maybe 3 times a month. Now? Barely 1 instance active a day at once.

    > @dracory1#6808 said:
    > There is no incentive for Tanks to run Zariel anymore.
    > Set is only DPS oriented and even then it is not the best in some cases, AoE for example - you will NOT proc 5 encounters in group or solo content without everything dying, the only place where Celestial is actually procced in AoE is incoming Vault of Stars and currently running Harvester of Nightmares.
    >
    > Zariel. Weapons. Are. Supposed. To. Be. The. Best.
    >
    > That was the case since mod 19 was released, hardest trial for top players for best items in the game. Currently it's either 2nd or 3rd place item for DPS, 2nd for tanks and healers over lionheart.
    >
    > Mirage weapons are an issue over all, though.
    >
    > My propositions are as following:
    > Illusions spawned via Mirage set bonus should only deal a set amount of magnitude damage and then disappear - sort of like Rogue's Shadow Flurry.
    >
    > Lionheart bonus should return to 10%, it was not a smart idea to reduce it in my opinion - Mastercraft weapons atm can give 10% to OD, OH and -10% to ID if 5 people wear these, even 4 sets is enough to outclass Lionheart, considering the item level decrease is too low to be even compared to 2% gained.
    >
    > Celestial bonus should have the biggest change - just 7.5% to damage and OH is not fine. -7.5% ID should be also added. In addition, the stacks required to proc the bonus should be reduced to 3 and the set bonus should be able to be procced twice. So, if you constantly fight, you'll easily keep up stacks and will at least give you something in content other than Vault of Stars, Harvester or longer boss fights. 15% max gain should be appropriate for something that's supposed to be the best, at least for now - since we don't have much else than set bonus.
    >
    > Item level gain/loss does not matter when it's up to 1k and players want to feel progress rather than be rewarded with nothing but self accomplishment. Do I need to remind that Zariel is punishing and often results in loss rather than gain? Every death = a watermelon or caprese, possibly scroll of life. Top players didn't farm that trial for a shiny new mount and with current system we can certainly see how it affected queues. Before changes - 4 Zariel instances was a maximum, maybe 3 times a month. Now? Barely 1 instance active a day at once.

    NO MORE NERFS!
    Do you even know how insanely long it takes to get those weapons.
    Quit nerfing everything you don’t like because you want your one set to be the best.
    WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE?
    It’s the one set wizards can use and have fun.
    FUN.
    No one wants this nerf, no one thinks it’s a good idea.
  • nic1985nic1985 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 377 Arc User
    @silente07#2597 I agree, I would never suggest the Dev to nerf Mirage or other weapons if they happen to be viable options now or the future. However they should buffs Celestial/Lionsheart, as those take considerable effort to get since it is end game and the amount of investment it takes.

    I am surprised the last few patches have not addressed the concerns. They are failing a lot in the current reworks.
  • dracory1#6808 dracory1 Member Posts: 74 Arc User


    NO MORE NERFS!

    Do you even know how insanely long it takes to get those weapons.

    Quit nerfing everything you don’t like because you want your one set to be the best.

    WHY DO YOU EVEN CARE?

    It’s the one set wizards can use and have fun.

    FUN.

    No one wants this nerf, no one thinks it’s a good idea.

    >insanely long
    >35 runs of the same skirmish
    >farming some realm quests or key of shadows within river district for treasures
    >3/5 mats can be bought on AH
    Only thing that takes longer would be the arcanic focus iirc. I had hundreds of those after finishing River District years ago. You can get the weapons in a day, Celestials take you those months of getting to the end game to finish Master Zariel.

  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 486 Arc User
    The problem with the Mirage weapon set by what I've been reading about it, is that it's playing the character faithfully, this includes the damage of enchant and skills like one of tr that has the maximum of 10 stack (i don't know the name) when it shouldn't. That was a common problem while these weapons were BIS from what I remember. The companion Paranoid Desilusion seems to have also had this problem and solved, but the price of it is so high and as I do not own it, nor can I say whether yes or no. So if they fix these problems it won't be a nerf, and everyone who uses that set is aware of it.
  • highlyunstablehighlyunstable Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 333 Arc User
    It is a slippery slope they have created.... making old weapons viable now means... no need to run ZCM. They actually should just remove it like they did with the other Dungeons and free up some space.
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    If you nerf older content the majority of players can do, people will stop playing. There are only a fraction of a percentage of players who can do TOMM or ZC.
    The majority are having problems in CODG.

    The vast amount of players are just looking for items to play and have fun. Leave our stuff alone and argue about BIS.
  • synyster3006synyster3006 Member Posts: 57 Arc User

    If you nerf older content the majority of players can do, people will stop playing. There are only a fraction of a percentage of players who can do TOMM or ZC.

    The majority are having problems in CODG.


    The vast amount of players are just looking for items to play and have fun. Leave our stuff alone and argue about BIS.

    That's a scaling issue. Doesn't mean we need to keep broken things in the game...
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