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Why Scaling isn't hitting its intended goals

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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User

    greywynd said:


    Doesn't matter. Shouldn't happen. If I can tank demons in Avernus, but get tanked by orcs in the Cloak Tower there is a serious flaw in the game's system.

    Just to be clear, are you claiming that you can't tank mobs in CT with a 50k setup or whatever? Do you have a large amount of "out of ratio gear" like maxed mount collars, maxed armor and weapon enhancement enchants, mythic mount attack powers, tenebrous enchants, high level conditional stat gear that gives temp bonuses, etc.?

    On a different note, if someone is a very powerful character in a DPS role, you probably shouldn't expect to take over the tank role even from a low level actual tank in CT, for example. I have seen DPS lvl 80 warlocks get eaten alive by the trash mobs because they ran ahead of the group, pulled all the aggro on themselves thinking that they are immortal because of their TIL, and then I am once again trying to save them with dedicated heals when the rest of us catch up to them. LOL If you aren't a tank, don't try to be a tank. Yes, even in Cloak Tower. I'm not saying this is you, greywynd... I'm just relaying what I've seen happen more than once. Sometimes it's a rogue, sometimes it's a warlock or ranger. But it happens more than rarely that a DPS thinks he can be a tank, and the new system punishes them. I'm pretty sure that's not a bug, and exactly what the developers had in mind.

    If a tank can't tank, that's something else entirely.
    He's saying he has no problem with tanking in the hardest area of the game but when he goes to something that scales him down, suddenly he's having problems.

    This is exactly the feedback you asked people for yesterday!

    He's saying his stats are balanced for endgame content but scaling down throws his percentages way off and makes him much less effective. When he exits the scaled area, everything goes back to normal.

    And yes, he's a proper tank class tank who's played tank for many years.

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  • ultramath#3953 ultramath Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    armadeonx said:



    He's saying he has no problem with tanking in the hardest area of the game but when he goes to something that scales him down, suddenly he's having problems.

    This is exactly the feedback you asked people for yesterday!

    He's saying his stats are balanced for endgame content but scaling down throws his percentages way off and makes him much less effective. When he exits the scaled area, everything goes back to normal.

    And yes, he's a proper tank class tank who's played tank for many years.

    OKAY THEN, now we have something. All we have to do to prove the OP's case is have this tank remove the strictly "out of ratio" gear and go at it again. If suddenly this 50k tank who couldn't tank CT is now able to do it ---> see where I am going with this? Obviously, this can't be WAI, if this is the case. We report this data (REAL DATA) and the devs have a chance to see that they missed some stuff for fringe cases with their system change. As the OP suggested in the first post here.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User

    armadeonx said:



    He's saying he has no problem with tanking in the hardest area of the game but when he goes to something that scales him down, suddenly he's having problems.

    This is exactly the feedback you asked people for yesterday!

    He's saying his stats are balanced for endgame content but scaling down throws his percentages way off and makes him much less effective. When he exits the scaled area, everything goes back to normal.

    And yes, he's a proper tank class tank who's played tank for many years.

    OKAY THEN, now we have something. All we have to do to prove the OP's case is have this tank remove the strictly "out of ratio" gear and go at it again. If suddenly this 50k tank who couldn't tank CT is now able to do it ---> see where I am going with this? Obviously, this can't be WAI, if this is the case. We report this data (REAL DATA) and the devs have a chance to see that they missed some stuff for fringe cases with their system change. As the OP suggested in the first post here.
    I'm sure @greywynd could post a screenshot of his stats being unscaled in Avernus and being scaled in CT but this is not a 'fringe' problem, it happens to all highly geared players and many have already left feedback saying that if they remove most of their gear and/or swap it for very low IL stuff they can balance their stats back to where they should be. This has been said by many players over the last week.

    This of course is just a workaround as players shouldn't have to use up inventory space for several sets of equipment to slot in depending on where the random queue lands them.
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  • ultramath#3953 ultramath Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    I'm not talking about screenshots of numbers, I'm talking playing the game and being able to succeed or not. When a tank geared for epics that succeeds at epics can't tank normal, then the devs might need to look at it.

    And there is a difference between "I can't do this" and "I can't easily blow through this without trying". Some people on the forums are being very cavalier with their word choices as we saw in the help thread where somebody came in and claimed they couldn't clear content in Blacklake as a level 63. There were a couple of posts similar to that. Exaggerating doesn't help, we need actual case data that proves this is a real issue and not just people upset because they can't roll their face across their keyboard and win the game anymore.

    Edit: As an aside, I have yet to see any tank of any level struggle with tanking a normal RDQ. Our problems always seem to be with handling the misfit rebels in the DPS crew. LOL I assume that tanks with very very high TIL are quite rare to spot in the lesser queues.
  • lordmelchett#1830 lordmelchett Member Posts: 33 Arc User



    And there is a difference between "I can't do this" and "I can't easily blow through this without trying". Some people on the forums are being very cavalier with their word choices as we saw in the help thread where somebody came in and claimed they couldn't clear content in Blacklake as a level 63. There were a couple of posts similar to that. Exaggerating doesn't help, we need actual case data that proves this is a real issue and not just people upset because they can't roll their face across their keyboard and win the game anymore.

    I believe most people posting in this thread are not about the "I can't easily blow through this without trying".

    The problem we're facing is that scaling has a flaw right now and that's not a "fringe" issue.
    We are raising our IL because we want high damage & high HP for the end game content.

    The problem is that currently scaling just makes everyone have the same base damage & hp - but the stat values of the high geared players are still compared to the original High IL - which causes our stat percentages to drop. This usually makes us weaker than low IL players in these environments.

    This should be addressed somehow.
  • ultramath#3953 ultramath Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    I would love to see somebody with 50k+ recording a CT run for Youtube or Twitch or whatever with their out of ratio gear. If that supergeared tank can't hold aggro or properly defend himself with proper teamwork then that would be something that the devs would not be able to ignore.
  • datarider#1036 datarider Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    me and my fr played CT, we both around 36-38k ilvl. me - arbiter, he - barbi with chicken :D
    it was kinda slow /3 encounters on every mob/ - running from CA, sliding for your life. Used like 4 potions xD

    got to boss Vansi with no major problems - just annoying fight... Added 3 ppl from guild, because I was scared, reading the comments here. buffed, prepared mentally for the fight... Vansi died in 3 secs... confusion ...

    thats my exp from 2 days ago and I dont like it - its big amortization on my expensive pro-gaming mouse :D I need it for csgo and pubg ffs.. you know - serious games :D
  • lordmelchett#1830 lordmelchett Member Posts: 33 Arc User

    me and my fr played CT, we both around 36-38k ilvl. me - arbiter, he - barbi with chicken :D
    it was kinda slow /3 encounters on every mob/ - running from CA, sliding for your life. Used like 4 potions xD

    got to boss Vansi with no major problems - just annoying fight... Added 3 ppl from guild, because I was scared, reading the comments here. buffed, prepared mentally for the fight... Vansi died in 3 secs... confusion ...

    thats my exp from 2 days ago and I dont like it - its big amortization on my expensive pro-gaming mouse :D I need it for csgo and pubg ffs.. you know - serious game :D

    Yeah, after the last patch Vansi got nerfed big time.
    Before that she was actually a challenge.
  • ultramath#3953 ultramath Member Posts: 143 Arc User

    me and my fr played CT, we both around 36-38k ilvl. me - arbiter, he - barbi with chicken :D
    it was kinda slow /3 encounters on every mob/ - running from CA, sliding for your life. Used like 4 potions xD

    got to boss Vansi with no major problems - just annoying fight... Added 3 ppl from guild, because I was scared, reading the comments here. buffed, prepared mentally for the fight... Vansi died in 3 secs... confusion ...

    thats my exp from 2 days ago and I dont like it - its big amortization on my expensive pro-gaming mouse :D I need it for csgo and pubg ffs.. you know - serious games :D

    Notice that this guy 2-manned Cloak Tower. Don't throw down the gauntlet, dude... I'm a healer, I'll solo it just to prove a point to nobody. :)
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    After thinking more on scaling and running numbers... I believe the following would work better and be easier to manage and understand:


    1. Remove combined ratings from the game. (except for select cases)
    2. Set all default starting stats at a flat 25%.
    3. Each Item Level adds 5 stats or equivalent value.
    4. Scaling upward adds 20% of Item Level differential as combined rating. Scaling downward subtracts 20% of the Item Level difference in combined rating. (50,000 IL scaling to 25,000 IL would lose 5,000 to all ratings)

    A 50,000 ilevel character would have an average stat value of about 41.666%, with a lot of allocation control, while a new character's stats will average 25%. You never gain stats by removing stuff. It doesn't matter where your stats come from anymore. You just need one column to show the percentage. The stat percentages barely drop when you scale. There is room to raise the caps to 100%, and room for growth exists up to and exceeding 100,000 IL.


    * * * * * E X A M P L E S of G E A R * * * * *

    * Unbolstered Mythic Companion (4,500 IL) - 1,500 in every stat, 2,500 for augmented stats
    * Bolstered Mythic Companion (9,000 IL) - 3,000 in every stat, 5,000 for augmented stats
    * Mythic Staldorf Companion Power (1,500 IL) - plus 7.5% Combat Advantage
    * Legendary Barbed Insignia of Dominance (200 IL) - 500 Power, 500 Forte
    * Mythic Barbed Insignia of Dominance (400 IL) - 1000 Power, 1000 Forte
    * Enchantment, Rank 15 (200 IL) +1000 total added to specified stats
    * Practical Collar V (1000 IL) - Effect +200cr
    * Other Collar V (1000 IL) - Effect +100cr
    * Headwear (1000 IL) - 1250 CritSeverity, 1250 CombatAdvantage, 2500 Defense
    * Armor (1000 IL) - 2500 CritSeverity, 2500 Defense
    * Handwear (1000 IL) - 1250 CritStrike, 1250 CritAvoid, 2500 Defense
    * Weapon (1000 IL) - 2500 Combat Advantage, 1250 Accuracy, 1250 CritStrike
    * Offhand (1000 IL) - 2500 Combat Advantage, 1250 Accuracy, 1250 CritStrike
    * Footwear (1000 IL) - 1250 Awareness, 1250 CritAvoid, 2500 Defense
    * Neck (1000 IL) - 2500 CritStrike, 2500 CritSeverity
    * StatRing (1000 IL) - Effects plus 3750 PrimaryStat, 1250 SecondaryStat
    * Statless Ring (1000 IL) - Effects plus 100cr
    * Waist (1000 IL) - 2500 Defense, 2500 SecondaryStat
    * Shirt (1000 IL) - 2500 PrimaryStat, 2500 SecondaryStat
    * Leggings (1000 IL) - 2500 PrimaryStat, 2500 SecondaryStat
    * Mythic Artifact (900 IL) - 4500 total stats [iLevel doubled for these]
    * Campaign Boon ( 0 IL ) - no changes
    * Stronghold Offense/Defense Boon (600 IL) - 200cr, plus adds 200 Feature Stat per structure level
    * Stronghold Utility/PvP Boon ( 0 IL ) - no change
    * Companion Gear (1000 IL) - 200cr, +2000 allocated to specified stats
    * Runestone Rank15 (200 IL) - 1000 to SpecificStat
    * MountCombatPower Unbolstered (2,000 IL) 200cr plus ability
    * MountCombatPower FullBolster (4,000 IL) 400cr plus ability
    * MountEquipPower Unbolstered (2,000 IL) 400cr plus 4000 in specified stat
    * MountEquipPower FullBolster (4,000 IL) 800cr plus 8000 in specified stat
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User

    me and my fr played CT, we both around 36-38k ilvl. me - arbiter, he - barbi with chicken :D
    it was kinda slow /3 encounters on every mob/ - running from CA, sliding for your life. Used like 4 potions xD

    got to boss Vansi with no major problems - just annoying fight... Added 3 ppl from guild, because I was scared, reading the comments here. buffed, prepared mentally for the fight... Vansi died in 3 secs... confusion ...

    thats my exp from 2 days ago and I dont like it - its big amortization on my expensive pro-gaming mouse :D I need it for csgo and pubg ffs.. you know - serious games :D

    Notice that this guy 2-manned Cloak Tower. Don't throw down the gauntlet, dude... I'm a healer, I'll solo it just to prove a point to nobody. :)
    What would be the point of you soloing it when you aren't subjected to the scaling issues? You know, it's all very easy for you to play the supreme sceptic when you've admitted that the stated issue doesn't even apply to you.

    How about you share a screenshot of your cleric w/stats so we have a reference point to the 'it's all cool at this IL' position?
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  • ultramath#3953 ultramath Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    image

    You see that staff of flowers? I'm pretty stoked on that one. I knew I wanted one eventually, but I hit a tarmalune jackpot around level 78 with a daily key and got one from the tarmalune trader. The head armor is just what I've got so far from Zuma Bag farming -- I'm not going to keep that veil forever.

    My plan is to run the River District for the Ascended Fey weapon set... I just started there yesterday, so I have a long way to go.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    I'm not seeing a picture - something didn't work. You do need to bear in mind though that as you get better gear you're going to perform progressively worse in the easy queues... until they fix the problem.
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  • ultramath#3953 ultramath Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    I'm not seeing a picture - something didn't work. You do need to bear in mind though that as you get better gear you're going to perform progressively worse in the easy queues... until they fix the problem.

    I hosted the image on google photos - that might be the issue. LOL shoulda used imgshack

    Anyway, the Cragmire I just healed 5 mins ago was all 80s except for one nub at lvl 28. I'm 28k, the tank was 40k, one of the DPS was 34k, and the other DPS was 18k. The run went very very smooth. I barely had to heal, the Flower fields I laid down were unnecessary, I could have not even slotted any dailies. The tank held aggro very easily and was never overwhelmed. The DPS burned the mobs down quickly everywhere, the boss lasted maybe 30 secs.

    What made that run so smooth (to the point that the tank kept thanking us in party chat... like 3 times during the run) was the fact that nobody charged ahead and tried to be Han Solo. The DPS crew stayed back and everybody played like a team. We stuck together.

    Maybe you do perform worse as your TIL goes up. I suspect that the math used by the OP to explain this phenomenon could be why. But maybe it doesn't matter for the normal RDQ's when you can still make it work easily and quickly as long as you play your role correctly.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 708 Arc User
    edited February 2021

    me and my fr played CT, we both around 36-38k ilvl. me - arbiter, he - barbi with chicken :D
    it was kinda slow /3 encounters on every mob/ - running from CA, sliding for your life. Used like 4 potions xD

    got to boss Vansi with no major problems - just annoying fight... Added 3 ppl from guild, because I was scared, reading the comments here. buffed, prepared mentally for the fight... Vansi died in 3 secs... confusion ...

    thats my exp from 2 days ago and I dont like it - its big amortization on my expensive pro-gaming mouse :D I need it for csgo and pubg ffs.. you know - serious games :D

    Notice that this guy 2-manned Cloak Tower. Don't throw down the gauntlet, dude... I'm a healer, I'll solo it just to prove a point to nobody. :)
    Data 2-manned a leveling dungeon (unless they brought back epic CT) with a toon than can (could? who knows these days) run most content in the game.
    So yes, if that ever stops being possible I will finally uninstall.
    Bring it on, Cryptic.

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    - bye bye -
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    @ultramath#3953

    Here, check this post:https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1259740/when-removing-gear-makes-you-better

    Bear in mind that this guy only removed 4 of his mount collars, nothing else - look at the percentages. This is what people are talking about. If he'd removed more gear, the stats would've gone up further.
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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    @xaltius#7326 great post - they did nerf Defence btw. They reduced it so that 90% Def gives you 50% Damage Reduction (insane move, I know).
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  • ultramath#3953 ultramath Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    @ultramath#3953

    Here, check this post:https://arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1259740/when-removing-gear-makes-you-better

    Bear in mind that this guy only removed 4 of his mount collars, nothing else - look at the percentages. This is what people are talking about. If he'd removed more gear, the stats would've gone up further.

    Yes, I've been watching that thread.

    He removed out of ratio gear (powerful mount collars) and his percentages went up. EXACTLY what the OP in this thread was warning us about. If the mount collars gave more combined so that the ratio hit 1:15 then the percentages would stay the same. In effect, that player is nerfed for using powerful out of ratio equipment in scaled content like Cloak Tower. That is probably not WAI, and is an oversight by the dev team. That's what we've been talking about the whole time here.

    The math is irrefutable. There's the proof. But here's the kicker: is that player now unable to play Cloak Tower? His power stat went from 60% to 62% --> is he unable to do his job with that lower 60% because he has the mount collars equipped? If he can still run stuff and isn't truly "gimped", then our case to the devs to fix this issue becomes weaker. This is Cryptic, man! These guys aren't exactly known for having a track record of even-handed generosity and timely and effective bugfixing.

    For example, I reported that the Fawn companions were broken back in November, and I reminded them again before the Simril Event when everybody and their grandma would be getting the fawns as drops, and not only did they not say anything, they completely ignored the problem and gave out tons of broken comps as rewards. It would have taken a dev like 1 minute to fix the comp, as it was probably a missing semicolon in the code.

    We need videos of 50k Tanks failing to hold aggro in CT. We need videos of 50k healers failing to keep players alive. We need videos of teams of 50k DPSers taking WAAAAY longer to burn down bosses to the point that it's farcical. Only then will these guys give a HAMSTER. Maybe not even then. LOL Remember who we are talking about here.
  • ultramath#3953 ultramath Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    @xaltius#7326 great post - they did nerf Defence btw. They reduced it so that 90% Def gives you 50% Damage Reduction (insane move, I know).

    There needs to be a giant flashing neon sign on the character sheet that says this. I bet almost nobody realizes the defense stat% is NOT straight damage reduction.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User

    armadeonx said:

    @xaltius#7326 great post - they did nerf Defence btw. They reduced it so that 90% Def gives you 50% Damage Reduction (insane move, I know).

    There needs to be a giant flashing neon sign on the character sheet that says this. I bet almost nobody realizes the defense stat% is NOT straight damage reduction.
    yeah they did something good and then bad to defence just before sending this update to live. Defence was previously worthless when below an enemys armor pen stat and it scaled up badly (something mathematical - can't remember what, but it gave less at lower levels) - they fixed that (the good part) but they downgraded max defence from 90% effectiveness to 50% (that's the bad & probably part of the reason everyone takes more damage now).
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  • datarider#1036 datarider Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    armadeonx said:

    @xaltius#7326 great post - they did nerf Defence btw. They reduced it so that 90% Def gives you 50% Damage Reduction (insane move, I know).

    There needs to be a giant flashing neon sign on the character sheet that says this. I bet almost nobody realizes the defense stat% is NOT straight damage reduction.
    yeah they did something good and then bad to defence just before sending this update to live. Defence was previously worthless when below an enemys armor pen stat and it scaled up badly (something mathematical - can't remember what, but it gave less at lower levels) - they fixed that (the good part) but they downgraded max defence from 90% effectiveness to 50% (that's the bad & probably part of the reason everyone takes more damage now).
    yea - Aragon entered tomm and showed how he can take 16+ balls from halaster and named the video "tanks are gods in the new mod" :D the devs took it personally, I guess and did what they can't - tried to balance :D:D
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    I saw that video, lol. Yes it was OP! but the devs 'tweak' things with a sledgehammer. It's more like demolition than surgery.
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  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 379 Arc User
    They gave Awareness to Barb tanks, then nerfed the other tanks more.
    Fun times.
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,364 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    I saw that video, lol. Yes it was OP! but the devs 'tweak' things with a sledgehammer. It's more like demolition than surgery.

    @nitocris83

    Feel free to pass this on to whomever you like.

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