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Legacy Scaling - The Real Fine Concept Behind the Changes

oktlryk#2717 oktlryk Member Posts: 148 Arc User
edited January 2021 in General Discussion (PC)

OK So I was hanging around, seems that there's a fair amount on confusion on the topic of Legacy Scaling - the worst is probably was that they had IL higher and had scaled and other people with lower IL are on their case in terms of higher damage they gain (or the opportunity to gain) and other similar affairs.

Well - in order to understand these changes better there must be an insight into what they aim to produce: Legacy Play in Older Campaigns that are As Good As They Were When The Campaign Was At It's Peak (Or: INTENDING TO MAKE THE CAMPAIGNS AS INTERESTING AS THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN WHEN THEY WERE FIRST RELEASED).

Yeah - that is mostly what the scaling was about: For instance if you were to get into a Malabog run (peaking at 24K) your damage would be scaled back (and HP) - this is so that you can play the game in it's actual settings ---- it's requirements and it's representation: It's like they're making a virtual computer, one that runs a legacy system, and it isn't simulated to be faster but as it was during the time it was made - with it's actual hardware running at that speed - the speed it had when it was first released - the Peak Playability - as in the Infernal Citadel in today's game.

See as the game progresses it introduces new gear, new ILs and new Levels (especially true in Malabog - L70 I think it was) - these new items would increase the ease in which the dungeon was run - making it similar to an upgrade to a better CPU - as time went on these dungeons became lower level campaigns, or legacy campaigns. In the end, they turned into a cake walk.

With the changes introduced, these places are now back to their prime difficulty - and having just run Malabog a short while ago - I really felt it was as if I was in fact doing a run in the Infernal Citadel - the number of times I died was a record! I usually do Malabog like a breeze - popping in and out of range and melee with my Ranger, or tanking a power DPS run with my fighter or paladin. And now - I am getting the full cognitive experience of running the ol' Hell Pit as it was when it was first released! And my god is the IC a more playable place - LoL!

So in a sense it's bad - but it fits with the legacy design concepts that the devs are working at - maybe it hasn't been fine tuned right? Or maybe it's better then perfect - I couldn't tell you as I wasn't around when Malabog first came out. Still I'd love to see some damage reduction! I can be crit by a Powrie? One Shot Crit?!! LoL! (All my stats above 24K - scouts honor)

So it may seem to some people like the concept is a rip off - they paid for the gear and now it's not reaching that sweat 50K IL place in the sky - but think about this: Isn't all content bound to run out? Hasn't Malabog been around so long it ran out long before the sunrise was creeping over the horizon? Well all economies are subject to deterioration in the end - and economy is a consumption of the duration and provision: In NW the economy is a time gate - in so much of time you will need to replenish supplies - they run out and deteriorate as time goes on - it's like buying a new shirt every now and then (Hopefully your favorite soccer club's) - and in this case Malabog seems to be given a lease! But the catch is it is a controlled playability that limits your existing action to a limited scale - thus eliminating the excess play that you may have acquired. So what - LoL - it's an ol' hell pit anyways! And the new one's about to find itself out in the open in a few short weeks! I'll take my one shot in that place instead - (where the IL is real for me) - LoL!

It's not technically a waste of your stats - It's really the dungeon from before when your stats increased and without accounting for them in their current range, but in it's own capped reality - this means that it doesn't have a timeline outside it's legacy existence - it's cap is the peak projection of its content when it was first released - and not current content projection in the current timeline - they're two different timelines now.

But anyway the point is if someone else even with lower IL is getting it on in a scaled legacy area, don't be freaked out! It's in the sprit of the game that we merry adventurers get together and hit it off in a crazy adventure of freaky proportions in a group of battle crazy madmen! (which all the better if they cap out anyway! - and furthermore the content is reworked and this is the IL of an age long forgotten!) So Content now is Legacy and has a place in NW that is unique to it's own design when it first peaked in some misty dawn sometime ago. And that just means it's well preserved like some Museum presentation - LoL!

And so I just wanted to add my Two Cents on content creation and management - I'm sure it's all good in the larger scheme of things.

However on a side note: I really think that there still are some bugs to address like the excessive damage I'm experiencing throughout the game!! IDK if it's crit avoidance or awareness or the damage multiplier?!! Because I was capped out in Malabog!!! And the Powrie One Shot Me! LoL!
Post edited by oktlryk#2717 on


  • oktlryk#2717 oktlryk Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    I know what's up with the lower levels or alts - I have 7 characters so far and 3 lower than 40, 4 at endgame - and yeah I know it's an AD insane affair especially with the cap at 100K account wide - I haven't even managed to clear off the rough AD from the characters, I got a few million rough AD waiting to be converted and I keep doing more dungeons and getting more rough AD and I guess that will be there piling up forever - unless Cryptic does something incredible about it and makes it character wide or increases the cap to something more playable like 300K or 500K a day.

    Anyway I did mention the problems of taking on too much damage, I didn't say it was great all in all - there's somethings yet to be dealt with a more balanced perspective - taking on damage like that is quite unbelievable - LoL - and the other thing is in fact the higher HP particularly the boss HP - it is pretty much a very grinding ordeal - but I have noted that in a group of like peak performers it can be faster. But at the same time, they're not spared the insane damage either! LoL - a lot have taken on unbelievable damage! I guess if they don't change it or balance it out it's gonna be something we have to get used to.

    And maybe this is what I figured out that could be most interesting with regards to your position on gear and lower level less powerful gear: They may not work correctly - caps work on the stats - like Malabog is 24K so all stats cap at 24K - however, if you use gear that does not reach that level, it won't cap - I'm using Fiend Forged gear on a Paladin who's got an IL of around 37K and it's managed to cap off all stats - but not in LOMM, where there's some stats still around 27K and below 30K - my ranger has managed to cap most 30K stats - but what I was going to say is the lower powered armor / gear need not really be considered unless you can touch the cap with it - it's not necessary that scaling and gear work well in that sense - older gear etc - scaling works on stat caps - and most pre infernal gear may not be able to get there unless you got piles of R15s.

    Yeah your closing is in fact something I pondered on too - but I thought maybe it's just the initial stages of the change - I bet they fix the mechanics. Thanks for your reply!
  • nekogirl#3018 nekogirl Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    I've been playing NW for several years now and I have enjoyed playing with many others who keep coming back for the fun and enjoyment of it all. The other day I saw we had a new update, And I thought great!! Let's see what new things they've come up with for us now. And then I played it. IT SUCKS!!! Please fix this horrible mistake and bring back the game we love! I brought in a new character Lv 17 Barbarian to do the nest egg quest. The kobolds were doing more damage to me then I was to them, How is this even remotely fair? You have a lot of very Dissatisfied customers currently, If they stay unhappy with the current system they may go elsewhere. And that would ruin everything we've come to love about the game. And this has made it almost impossible to solo play as well, Not everyone belongs to a guild or has friends online to play with.
  • oktlryk#2717 oktlryk Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    Yeah, so far so many complaints are real problems - I'm not saying that that's the way it should be in case you mistook what I intended to post on, I agree it is pretty hard - the balance needs to be more playable not another grinder to work for and hope on like the currencies lol - now getting them will also be oppressive not the entertaining battle hour(s) - the balance as it is hovers over a lot of technical actions that are almost impossible with the damage mechanics or dice equations behind the scenes. It must be more laid back IMO - if their aim is to emulate crazy RPGs and hard core player bases then they got it spot on - but else its gonna be like it was before or better, maybe the real way it was intended once the fixes come out - LoL!
  • datarider#1036 datarider Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    hamster in your hamster hamster, mod
  • oktlryk#2717 oktlryk Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    I cannot get these types of posts - are they typos? LoL! Infomative artistic freehand maybe - LoL!
  • urlord283urlord283 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,079 Arc User
    Scaling should work both ways, If you make it harder to complete the "activity" you should increase the reward for doing so.

    The latter is always missing

  • aslan3775aslan3775 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 262 Arc User
    First Point: Scaling is a bad idea, for all the reasons that have been listed above.
    Second Point: Even if you think, as a dev, that Scaling can work and people will really like it once you 'get it right', you need to implement the improved rewards system at the same time. And the improved rewards that have been teased so far--are far from improved rewards.
  • eladonwarps#6040 eladonwarps Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    I can see 1 singular advantage to scaling, and that's Events. It always bugged me how this game locked people out of seasonal and limited time events by mandating minimum Char Lvls and ILs. Maybe it's the STO captain in me, where events are open to everyone after tutorial and participation is scaled pretty well for combat necessary parts.

    And to that end, I noticed Harvester is scaled to 35k IL. I was 33k when it started, but playing with people both above and below, it works pretty well and we've yet to fail even the optional fight. Better if there's more above the 35k mark, slightly slower if too far below, or just poorly played. Although the combat in there is still a bit slower than before, it's working.

    As an example, before combat changes, my healer cleric was so bored in PUGs that she slotted damage encounters and topped Paingiver a few times. After changes, she's at bottom, with tank usually right above. That feels a bit better.
    Call me El, she/her only. Currently Professions-only until the next combat change fixes this mess.
  • frfloppy#3490 frfloppy Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Honestly, I dont understand the reason for scaling (I am a new player). If you have worked hard to improve your character, you should not get punished for doing older content. If I want to become a stronger player, it is because I want not only try new dungeons, skirmish, etc., but also to do some content (that I have previously done) easier. It does not make sense to be weaker in different scenarios. I mean, if you are 1.80m-high in Spain, you are 1.80m-high in Italy or in the USA... So I dont like scaling at all. Stats should always be the same. If you have collected nice gear, mounts,etc. to be stronger, they should be worth no matter which content you play
  • oktlryk#2717 oktlryk Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    I totally think rewards really need further development - Maybe a few tokens are cool, reroll, but I love to do delver's and at least get a few epic companions and a legendary mount? I did delver's through the whole thing, but I got a stone of health as my best reward - the last delver's I got a Dancing Blade epic companion - which beat this one - LoL!

    It really deserves further development - rewards are a key drive to playing the game - a key factor to log in and delve and do Qs and work on further progress. It's an area that recently did get a facelift - tokens and other miscellaneous items began to appear as rewards - usually rerolling got you something useful like that. However the drop rate of real premium drops is as low as it had been - companions still low, mounts as well - In fact I got a Duhr recently in LoL, after delver's week - blue one - I was thrilled. But I gotta say I have had the luxury of getting premium legendary mounts, I got an AxeBeak - this was really a welcome surprise! Totally unexpected and really awesome!

    The thing is, I was delving like 5 - 10 times a day and in a week and in delver week at that I should have got something really premium but nothing - maybe the true random loot should be augmented with a tracking type table modification - like in some games. True random can be impossible given the way true random can be coded and implemented. There are probabilities that occur in large sampling that are a subset of outcomes that are finite and determine the distribution and in these cases however improbably, the same subset of 'non-grata' can recur infinitely or can produce indeterminate outcomes.

    A tracking type augmented random could narrow down the sampling and include excellent 'proc' drops or determinate outcomes like epic companions/mounts legendary mounts and so on - and could be implemented like after 10 runs include a determinate outcome that would include a sampling of these items (subject to reroll etc.) and if after 5 runs with incredible performance (and other types of rationalities) these items too or you could use bundling and state that these packs are to be enabled in the sampling and so on. (Of course you'll know how the rational would work better - LoL!)

    These modifications could really drive the game forward from the sheer awesomeness of getting a great drop during a run!
  • rosh#3730 rosh Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited January 2021
    I dont mind being scaled down , however the rewards for simplest queue has to be great not just bunch of peridots or aquamarine because now it takes time to finish it

    We should have had proper loot table with this system when it launched if you did , most of community wouldn't be angry because there is reward for playing the game content
    Post edited by rosh#3730 on
  • ziggerlinziggerlin Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited January 2021
    I could live with a system where better gear in lower level content had diminishing returns. That is, much better gear could be a LOT better at level, but only somewhat stronger at lower level zones. This would at least prevent many groups from just facerolling over everything and one-shotting everything in sight, and perhaps adding at least a little tactics and strategizing back to the lower level bosses. That to me is an OK concept.

    But it should never be the case that better gear does *nothing* to make you stronger, or worse, as it feels in some areas as currently tunes, makes you struggle more than folks of lower level or lower TIL. You should never put on stronger gear and find that it makes you weaker. That totally goes against the spirit of D&D.

    So maybe it's not fun or challenging for a group of high level players burning a lower level boss in three seconds. But it shouldn't result in wipes, either, usually death by a couple dozen adds applying insane combat advantage. I will use Cloak Tower as an example -- one that is the lowest level in theory, but has become one of the hardest legacy dungeons to finish. It should not be as hard -- or take as long -- for five level 80s to finish as five level 30s. Really, it shouldn't even be close. You could apply some diminishing returns to better gear and that would still be the case. But a group with some 80s in it, with some TILs of 25K and up, should not be wiping Cloak Tower. And given the low level rewards, it shouldn't take them half an hour or more, either.

    So yes, progression. As you gain levels, XP and better gear, you should *always* be stronger than you were before, no matter where you adventure. Period. Even if the gain is less than linear, it should be greater than zero.
  • oktlryk#2717 oktlryk Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    Yeah - The CA against - but funnily - higher awareness adds to survivability and higher def stats in general - for example - outside the dungeon scene, Avernus for instance, I had my Paladin hardly damaged on a whole load of CA and swarming mobs - but couldn't in a scaled Malabog survive Quicklings and Powries swarming, however doing better since the upgrade - think stats need to reach 80%+ to work best in those instances - maybe it is a paradigm shift to stats really working at the fundamental level vs stats and maybe a few hits anyway but whatever IDK what my stats are or maybe they need a little boost, hey it ain't TOMM - I would love to upgrade and have a go at that concept, just soon enough hopefully - LoL!
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