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Can we get a comment regarding matchmaking?

knorke3knorke3 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
Matchmaking is a mess right now. It is nothing new and very common opinion in the PvP community.

Sometimes you go in with three players new to PvP on the one side (you can see it when looking at their build/ilvl/gear/position on the leaderboard) and a team of only experienced players on the other side.
Or you have matches where one team has two healers and the other has zero. Or four healers on one team and one healer on the other. Healer numbers are somehow never even.
In matches where you have one team with experienced players and one team with only one new(-ish) player, the team with the new(-ish) player has to kick the one player that is trying to get into PvP and gain some match-experience. It frustrates the players trying to get into PvP and it frustrates the player trying to do competitive PvP. While one doesn't get to play PvP until he is skilles/geared enough, the other doesn't get even matches where his actions actually contribute to the win. Often the win is predetermined. If the competitive player has no kick left in the team, he knows he's going to loose, so most don't even bother playing and noone gets to play.

Another issue are people trying to piggy-back on PvP to get free stuff. We have matches where people queue with some alt that has Lion-Head-Weapons but 4k ilvl and 64k HP. Clearly these are trolls and/or people trying to get free stuff with as many alts as possible, without even thinking about winning a match. Slightly less frustrating are the PvE players doing that, but since most PvE-builds get squished in PvP, they don't have fun dying all the time and his team doesn't have fun because they have a disadvantage only because he is on their team.

Right now there is no place for competitive PvP and no place for casual PvP. There's only solo domination and it is no fun 50% of the time. Half the time you just stand around and wait until the match is over. And that is no fun at all.

There where many proposals how to fix this state of PvP:

separate queue for different ilvl
removing rewards for the lower ranks of the leaderboard
rewards for domination queue (and fixing the queue)
reducing the kick-cooldown

just to name a few.

It would be nice to know if this is on your agenda at all or if we have to get used to it permanently.
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Comments

  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,059 Arc User
    edited January 14
    I agree with the issue and parts of the rest.

    For those 4 proposals though, there is one on that list that is a really bad idea if applied to the current system, reducing the kick cooldown. Imagine literally every match you play there are multiple kicks per team, the current kick abuse is already unfair to everyone and this would just turn every single match into an even more atrocious kick war. If anything, what needs to happen is the exact opposite, where best option at this point is to remove kicking entirely, it does come with some cons but its probably the only viable option for adjusting kick voting at this point that would actually improve PVP.

    Separate tiered ques for different item levels is something that could have worked if it happened a long time ago and we would probably have retained more players. But we probably can't support it now that population is this low. A better idea would be to establish a basic item level requirement, it can't be set as high as would be ideal but we do have a big enough population to support setting it to somewhere around when people have purple gear, around 400k hp, and do decent dps. The way PVP in this game is, the blue and green gear fresh level 80s shouldn't be allowed to join public PVP ques period.

    For rewards for the domination que, a good option is establishing separate leaderboards and rewards for solo que and regular domination que. and tweak the rewards to be more win based instead of participation based. Or at least make it so you have to play a lot more matches per character to get the good rewards, which is something that needed to be better encouraged anyways. Most likely what we will get from the devs is an accountwide limit to how much PVP currency you can earn, or rewards in the shop becoming account bound.

    ----

    For matchmaking, a big issue with it is it doesn't factor in roles at all. It needs to be tweaked to take roles into account when deciding how to split people. Healers for example it should attempt to evenly split whenever possible. If there is more than one healer it should always ensure both teams get at least 1. If there is more than one dps player, both teams should be guaranteed to get at least 1 of those too, usually there are plenty of dps players around so each team should always be getting 2 of these at least.

    It does have some class restrictions at least, where you can't have more than 2 of the same class per team.

    I'm pretty sure it can't read item level either, which is also a problem.

    It does appear to take rank into account, a majority of the time, it will split 2 high ranked players apart. but because its going off of combined rank of each team, it can easily decide to do something stupid like put 3 or 4 green/blue gear pugs on the same team with 1 or 2 high ranked players and put a full team of 5 middle ranked players with good gear on the opposite team. If some of the players are unranked, it appears to mess up this matchmaking and how they are split is weird. Unranked players are more likely to be placed on the same team as a high ranked player, but its like the unranked people are counted as high rank players themselves when calculating how much points the opposing team gets for beating them.

    The que often isn't very good at changing the teams up when there is only 1 match in progress at a time and mostly the same people. It frequently keeps giving you mostly the same teammates as the previous game for like 3 or 5 games in a row. In general, low population makes all the que's matchmaking issues and issues with exploitation and trolling more pronounced.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
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  • knorke3knorke3 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    You're right, not every suggestion on that list is a good one. However it illuminates the fact that there are concepts and thoughts put into this question. Devs only need to reach out and talk with us about it.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,590 Arc User
    Yeah, good luck with the reach around and talk.
    I have something to say. It's better to burn out, than fade away!
  • vaultingfrog#2497 vaultingfrog Member Posts: 159 Arc User
    How about you remove kicking all together as it is abused to an extreme.

    Also instead of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over players at the bottom of the rankings you make a single account wide ranking no matter how many toons you use with only 1 reward per account and its bound to account so the people multi tooni g can't abuse the auction house for millions by manipulating the boards for tons of rewards. And yes I should have worked a period in there somewhere.
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,059 Arc User
    knorke3 said:

    You're right, not every suggestion on that list is a good one. However it illuminates the fact that there are concepts and thoughts put into this question. Devs only need to reach out and talk with us about it.

    I sent the thread link to ridi, but I think he is on break.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 194 Arc User
    PvP in any game is always the hardest part to deal with, since in PvE enemies typically behave as devs intend and easy work arounds/loop-holes aren't as obvious. Its good to see some feedback on forums about PvP as its not always clear where to go for information. Hopefully by dissuading people from alt spamming pvp growth will improve and can start adding item level ques, or at least more modes.
  • lunartic666lunartic666 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 36 Arc User
    Separating queue would help.
    Currently we have situation where ppl with low il won't queue couse they don't want to be stomped by higher il players. Also high il players dont want to be mixed with lower il so they don't queue.

    About rewards.
    Get rid of pvp seasons and seasoned rewards, instead give us repeatable account-wide reward tracks, where all account characters progress one track. Repeatable to give more rewards to ppl who play more.

    Kicking players should be disabled, but only with separated queue for il.


  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 656 Arc User
    @rhroudadev#5641

    By "removing value-based rewards out of the PvP seasonal store", do you mean removing the enchantment packs we can buy ? This is the one and only reason I made a PvP build ready for the new combat system (can survive more than 0.5 sec vs a pvper in new system), and if that is removed I will stay away for a little longer :disappointed:
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 656 Arc User
    Hang on, does "cosmetic rewards" include capes ???
    Elite Whaleboy
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,378 Arc User
    edited January 19

    ....

    Just wondering, there are two contradicting issues there, one is not enough players, and "... since a lack of value-based rewards tends to dissuade people from doing activities.."
    Which means removing the rewards will also reduce players.

    Why not make the value-based rewards claimable only once per account, as in claim only the top reward on the account. Since isn't the issue is that people running on practically naked alts and ruin the matches for others?
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  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 373 Arc User
    edited January 19

    • Separating the queue for item level would result in longer queue times, and would also result in low-ilevel queues not popping. One of the primary issues being that people lose patience after a few minutes and then drop out of the queue, or get busy doing something else and abandon it when it does pop.
    • We are in the process of removing value-based rewards out of the PvP seasonal store, and replacing them with cosmetics. Right now, because there is value, there are people who will just spam it for minimum value on alts. This should reduce some of that problem, since a lack of value-based rewards tends to dissuade people from doing activities.
    • The queue is working with a limited player count, and is doing what it can to make the queue pop. If we force constraints on team building for the queue, then that will lead to longer queue times, which we see people drop out of, thus resulting in fewer people trying to play at any given time.
    • We're not reducing vote kick cooldown. I'm currently trying to figure out how to solve the problem of people abusing the kick system as-is.
    -I've talked about this a bunch on the PvP discords, but it is good to put it here for non-discord users as well. One of the main problems we face is that unless the queue pops quickly enough, people just abandon it and do something else. More people playing of course means that it will pop more frequently, so I added seasonal PvP rewards to try and entice players into it and make it rewarding for them. Unfortunately the impact wasn't significant enough, and fresh players who were initially attracted to PvP because of the new reward mechanism weren't prepared for PvP, and the numbers dropped back down. During this time, I myself was vote-kicked (On my secret account) multiple times during matches, which makes me very hesitant to further empower vote-kicking behavior.-

    Me: Wouldn't scaling pvp be a solution? Look at my point of view, I'm a player that I must be a little above the media in terms of gear and equipment on most players, but still do not practice PVP even though I want to, since it is very expensive to have a build just for me to perform this. The game will soon become viable to scale any item, so why not scale the PVP? An example, I have the lion mount bonus in the epic version, with the various changes in the game I have no way to put it in the mythical mainly because the focus of the majority of the community is pvp, but you could climb me to a legendary version so that the player that has the mythical does not suffer miss and so that I also feel interested in giving an update on my mount. There must also be a minimum number of item levels for you to participate in PVP, and take into account that the player has at least one epic mount, epic insignias and enchants let's say rank 11 so that the player can enter.

    In Dota there is a ranking system that tries to put players of equal level in the same match, but sometimes I am obliged to play with players of less rank (which is not good, since I am a player of the position sup 5) or with players of rank much higher that make me notice why I have my medal and because I am below them. In Dota there are specific positions and this is easier to balance, since it is easy to find 2 medal HC and MMR similar, already here in Neverwinter you could do the balance by item level and rank in PVP.
  • xvimn134xvimn134 Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited January 20

    • We are in the process of removing value-based rewards out of the PvP seasonal store, and replacing them with cosmetics. Right now, because there is value, there are people who will just spam it for minimum value on alts. This should reduce some of that problem, since a lack of value-based rewards tends to dissuade people from doing activities.



    1. for me I do not really need cosmetic rewards, maybe people with green/blue gears like cosmetics more than competetive players. People dont realize the overall goal is to encourage more competetive pvp game (quantity of game+ quality of game) the well geared pve players/competetive alts are actually helping both. The problem is the incompetetive players or alts with green/blue gears which ruins the game play. I understand people who play only one character or doesn’t play pvp a lot feel jealous when seeing me and other players playing alt characters to get more reward, but we can not satisfy all people. In my opinion, as long as the quantity and quality of match can be both improved it is good for pvp community, so encouraging competitive characters to join pvp is actually helping pvp to grow. Pve players and more alt characters join pvp after mod 17 is actually helping pvp to grow (from 5 matches a day to 40 matches a day now). The only problem I see is the incompetetive players/alts which should be discouraged since they lowers the game quality.

    2. Actually with value based rewards people are playing very seriously and try to compete for every game. From the numbers of kick we can see people are treating every win seriously. (Although kick is not a good thing ) By changing to cosmetics rewards pvp will be completely casual content without any competetion because they know even they don't play seriously they do not lose anything. Again, the problem is the incompetetive characters or the trolls who only play 1 or 2 games everyday to simple disconnect or throw the games. By removing the value based rewards pvp will be completely casual content and people will play casually just for fun. Some people want this to happen but I prefer pvp to be more competitive since in every other game playing good pvp is very rewarding and end game content

    3. A simple and efficient way to make pvp more competetive without hurting the queue is simply to remove rewards for bottom 50% or bottom 25% in leaderboard; Or maybe give like 200k AD to botom 50%, as "comfort rewards" instead of 1m which encourages trolls to queue. By doing this it will force people to play better and discourage incompetetive players/alts from entering pvp instead of killing the pvp queue for competetive characters and make pvp completely casual content.
    Post edited by xvimn134 on
  • unknowndramaunknowndrama Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 89 Arc User
    Sorry but they could have fixed pvp very easy if they wanted..
    1. Block any PVE GEAR in PVP make ppl use ONLY PVP GEAR
    2. Disable or reduce efficiency of insignias and mounts in PVP
    For very long time pvp has bring broken not much becose of class balance but becose of PVE items that where abused in pvp..
    Other pvp focused players can add more but i will stop here..
  • miliantriciamiliantricia Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    Remove skill mounts and mount bonuses from PvP. Do PvP like it was in the 2019 April Fowls event, so that all equipment and all skills are locked.
    Or remove PvP from the game altogether.
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    edited January 19



    • Separating the queue for item level would result in longer queue times, and would also result in low-ilevel queues not popping. One of the primary issues being that people lose patience after a few minutes and then drop out of the queue, or get busy doing something else and abandon it when it does pop.
    • We are in the process of removing value-based rewards out of the PvP seasonal store, and replacing them with cosmetics. Right now, because there is value, there are people who will just spam it for minimum value on alts. This should reduce some of that problem, since a lack of value-based rewards tends to dissuade people from doing activities.
    • The queue is working with a limited player count, and is doing what it can to make the queue pop. If we force constraints on team building for the queue, then that will lead to longer queue times, which we see people drop out of, thus resulting in fewer people trying to play at any given time.
    • We're not reducing vote kick cooldown. I'm currently trying to figure out how to solve the problem of people abusing the kick system as-is.
    I've talked about this a bunch on the PvP discords, but it is good to put it here for non-discord users as well. One of the main problems we face is that unless the queue pops quickly enough, people just abandon it and do something else. More people playing of course means that it will pop more frequently, so I added seasonal PvP rewards to try and entice players into it and make it rewarding for them. Unfortunately the impact wasn't significant enough, and fresh players who were initially attracted to PvP because of the new reward mechanism weren't prepared for PvP, and the numbers dropped back down. During this time, I myself was vote-kicked (On my secret account) multiple times during matches, which makes me very hesitant to further empower vote-kicking behavior.
    This would kill pvp again, with the rewards people were interested in pvp again. You can make rewards once per account only so that players will enter with their best geared toon (this was discussed in pvp discord). This together with a better matchmaking algorithm (one that considers more the stats and also the position in the leaderboard) will make kicking not necesary as teams would be more balanced
  • flo38#2567 flo38 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    Can someone explain me why kick still not removed in pvp ?
    In every pvp game, especially moba who have same queue system, you go solo queue but still play in team of 5 and you can't kick your teammate.
    Without kick, i have 50% chance to be in advantaged team or disavantaged team so if i played enough game it will find some balance.
    But in the actual pvp system, kick completely destroy this 50% chance. It is even worst because it force us to kick...
    If this match i got a bad team/disavantaged team and i choose to don't kick then next match i am finally in better team but other team choose to kick their lowest player then they get a better player and finally become the advantaged team so instead to have 1 match in advantaged team and 1 match in disavantaged team, i get 2 match in disavantaged team.
    If you can't kick, it will also forced player who really want to climb leaderbord to play with every player even if they are very low/bad, some will try to carry or help low player...other may choose to surrend/gg if they want and go for next game.
    Yeah win/rate may be lower to everyone but we just need to win some games when we are in disavantaged team and most of the game in advantaged team.
    Don't tell me kick is here to kick troll/afk, in every moba there is troll or afk player and you can't kick them. Also everyone know in Nw, most of the time kick is not for this purpose, it is just use to kick the lowest or badest player...

    There is plenty of other problems in pvp but remove kick should be considered, it will improve game experience for everyone and forced player to play together.

  • xenocide#6577 xenocide Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    Could there be a way to match players who are at an equal rank +/- 1 from where your character is in the standings?

    competitive players could easily climb up into a higher bracket to avoid being matched up with newer or pve players who are only there for their 6 games.
  • xvimn134xvimn134 Member Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited January 20

    Could there be a way to match players who are at an equal rank +/- 1 from where your character is in the standings?

    competitive players could easily climb up into a higher bracket to avoid being matched up with newer or pve players who are only there for their 6 games.

    decently geared pve players are actually helping pvp to pop and some of them played not bad, like back before mod 15 only 5-10 games everyday now its like 40+ with the rewards, the problem is players with green/blue gears.
  • stonerwstonerw Member Posts: 22 Arc User

    We are in the process of removing value-based rewards out of the PvP seasonal store, and replacing them with cosmetics. Right now, because there is value, there are people who will just spam it for minimum value on alts. This should reduce some of that problem, since a lack of value-based rewards tends to dissuade people from doing activities.
    Oh, removal of rewards will kill the queue. Look, yes there are people coming in with alts, but many of those people actually have powerful alts that advance up to tier 1 and 2. Those people will likely still play if the rewards players leave, but the queue will only pop about 2 hours a day, like it did under the last mod.

  • igrejamasterigrejamaster Member Posts: 22 Arc User

    • Separating the queue for item level would result in longer queue times, and would also result in low-ilevel queues not popping. One of the primary issues being that people lose patience after a few minutes and then drop out of the queue, or get busy doing something else and abandon it when it does pop.
    • We are in the process of removing value-based rewards out of the PvP seasonal store, and replacing them with cosmetics. Right now, because there is value, there are people who will just spam it for minimum value on alts. This should reduce some of that problem, since a lack of value-based rewards tends to dissuade people from doing activities.
    • The queue is working with a limited player count, and is doing what it can to make the queue pop. If we force constraints on team building for the queue, then that will lead to longer queue times, which we see people drop out of, thus resulting in fewer people trying to play at any given time.
    • We're not reducing vote kick cooldown. I'm currently trying to figure out how to solve the problem of people abusing the kick system as-is.
    I've talked about this a bunch on the PvP discords, but it is good to put it here for non-discord users as well. One of the main problems we face is that unless the queue pops quickly enough, people just abandon it and do something else. More people playing of course means that it will pop more frequently, so I added seasonal PvP rewards to try and entice players into it and make it rewarding for them. Unfortunately the impact wasn't significant enough, and fresh players who were initially attracted to PvP because of the new reward mechanism weren't prepared for PvP, and the numbers dropped back down. During this time, I myself was vote-kicked (On my secret account) multiple times during matches, which makes me very hesitant to further empower vote-kicking behavior.

    PVP will be dead again, soon they will no longer see me in the PVP queue until the PVP does something useful again. PVP will again be a waste of time, the queue will again take hours for POP. Quality Seal!!!
  • xvimn134xvimn134 Member Posts: 132 Arc User

    Can someone explain me why kick still not removed in pvp ?


    2 reasons kick need to be saved in NW pvp.

    1. if matches are balanced for most of the game then we don't need kick. Like in game with big population and good match system you can enjoy the game by playing competetively for majority of the game. Unfortunately currently 50% of the NW pvp games are gg at begining without kick simply because 1 or 2 people with green/blue gears. There are people who doesnt mind wasting 10 minutes exchaning node for 50% the game, but not everyone prefer that.

    2. Sure not every game there are trolls who afk/throw the game, but without the kick those trolls might come back and easily ruin the game whole day knowing they won't be kicked. Leaving the kick option would frighten them out of trolling the games.

    I hope they can have better match system and find others ways to prevent people from trolling/throwing the games, then people wont bother to kick.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,200 Arc User
    edited January 20


    Separating the queue for item level would result in longer queue times, and would also result in low-ilevel queues not popping. One of the primary issues being that people lose patience after a few minutes and then drop out of the queue, or get busy doing something else and abandon it when it does pop.
    We are in the process of removing value-based rewards out of the PvP seasonal store, and replacing them with cosmetics. Right now, because there is value, there are people who will just spam it for minimum value on alts. This should reduce some of that problem, since a lack of value-based rewards tends to dissuade people from doing activities.
    The queue is working with a limited player count, and is doing what it can to make the queue pop. If we force constraints on team building for the queue, then that will lead to longer queue times, which we see people drop out of, thus resulting in fewer people trying to play at any given time.
    We're not reducing vote kick cooldown. I'm currently trying to figure out how to solve the problem of people abusing the kick system as-is.


    I've talked about this a bunch on the PvP discords, but it is good to put it here for non-discord users as well. One of the main problems we face is that unless the queue pops quickly enough, people just abandon it and do something else. More people playing of course means that it will pop more frequently, so I added seasonal PvP rewards to try and entice players into it and make it rewarding for them. Unfortunately the impact wasn't significant enough, and fresh players who were initially attracted to PvP because of the new reward mechanism weren't prepared for PvP, and the numbers dropped back down. During this time, I myself was vote-kicked (On my secret account) multiple times during matches, which makes me very hesitant to further empower vote-kicking behavior.
    How about just putting in a 'sorting' mechanic that looks at the players for the match and balances team allocation by item level or leaderboard standing? That should solve half the problem at least.
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  • kors#9447 kors Member Posts: 92 Arc User
    I'm not a PvPer, but during last year and half collected a lot of matches and made some experience with PvP in Neverwinter.
    Few points here from my perspective:

    1) Premade group queue should be removed from PvP, this will help a lot with matchmaking and (I hope) balancing of the teams.
    2) Removing rewards means removing people from PvP. Let's be fair, the only reason 99% of the people do PvP is for rewards.
    3) Improving kick-voting is a mistake. Many times happens that also the "victory" of the group is premade (and if you are the "foreigner" you will be kicked for no reasons except the following). Happened to me many time to be in the loser group of alt accounts of the winner group. This is not fair at all. I would rather make an option where a player that doesn't move at all from campfire will be automatically removed from queue after 3 min (maximum time).
    4) Improving also the variety of matches for PvP can help to improve this part of the game (similar to other games PvP based: Heroes vs Evils, premade base classes to use, new maps, etc)
  • kors#9447 kors Member Posts: 92 Arc User

    How about you remove kicking all together as it is abused to an extreme.



    Also instead of HAMSTER over players at the bottom of the rankings you make a single account wide ranking no matter how many toons you use with only 1 reward per account and its bound to account so the people multi tooni g can't abuse the auction house for millions by manipulating the boards for tons of rewards. And yes I should have worked a period in there somewhere.

    I agree with "per account", but I disagree with "bound". This because gearing up properly for PvP has a (high) cost and have the chance to recover part of the investment by selling rewards earned in AH is fair.
  • kors#9447 kors Member Posts: 92 Arc User
    Also, a huge improvement of the Glory vendor with PvP gear can help gearing up properly (if gear is properly thought). And this can reduce the strength distance between veteran PvPer and new players by playing PvP itself.
  • ldog#3742 ldog Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Don’t give the top 3 capes and titles so everyone can get it, people worked hard for them they should still be exclusive
  • ldog#3742 ldog Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Also I agree with different rewards for the different q’s, let’s get the 5v5 competitive q’s going again
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