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Official - Combat Changes - Master Trials

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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    @noworries#8859

    Hi, still no response as to whether you're going to remove the 3 minute cooldown on Shield o/t Gods - it'd be great if you could let us know please.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 367 Arc User
    Yeah let’s nerf the other Tanks so Barbs can Tank better.
    That’s fair.
    I mean it’s not like we can remotely compare the dps sides which a sparkly doesn’t even have.
    Hey let’s nerf Barbs so they are more in line with Fighter dps and make their Rage mechanic just like Seethe, so they have to Stand there and build the meter before leaping in.
    Fair is fair.
  • coolgor28#5062 coolgor28 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 79 Arc User
    Do people even test things in trials or just say they nerfed gf and all other are whining, gf tank is still best in live and in preview, people are asking so other tank are treated equally and is very sad to be barb tank really since mod 16 worse tank and utility for group and agro. now for the dps part just ask for buff of your class and still builds are not finished , to see what's going on for final balances.
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  • sephiz#1200 sephiz Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    @noworries#8859

    Will divine palisade (tab+shift) on OP be made to cover 50% of stamina when unfeated and 75% when feated as per tooltip and old behaviour? Divine champion (w/o shift) works as expected (50/75) but palisade is currently doing 40%/60% which looks to be incorrectly linked to the block stamina value instead of the champion stamina value.

    Unrelated but shield of the gods suffer from the same issue as the unfeated bubble daily. On an average 15m master zariel run I can use it at best 4 times since it's a pick your spot skill and the sheer amount of damage you get there is no good spot to use it besides phase 4 angels for solo heal shenanigans. Having it up for ~24s in zariel makes it terrible since it cuts down on the already terrible uptime of the 30% awareness part of the daily. I would flat out rework the feat to do something else since with the current CD it's something that should never be used. Also the competing feat which is the shield of fate one is pretty good which makes me wish that the awareness was given to shield of fate instead of the bubble ;) .

    The current meta for trials at least seems to be to stack awareness to 90% since like old defense the more awareness you have the better mitigation you get making the uptime of the awareness daily bad since you always want to be near cap or risk getting blown up. I ran tomm with 90% defense and 60% awareness depending on the daily and it was fairly terrible experience but to be fair the trial still hits too hard (3+ crits in a row damage spike from halaster was bad) and palisade was only doing 60% of my HP :'( .
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User

    armadeonx said:

    @noworries#8859

    Hi, still no response as to whether you're going to remove the 3 minute cooldown on Shield o/t Gods - it'd be great if you could let us know please.

    That can only be removed if the damage reduction changes to a lower amount, such as 20-25% that stacks on top of defense, instead of the essential immunity it does now. That is too powerful to go off frequently. But if the damage reduction part changes then it can have the cooldown removed fully.
    The Fighter version (Bladed Rampart/Sharpened Senses) gives a 30% damage reduction, reflects damage back to attackers and lasts for 10 seconds - and has no cooldown. I'd be cool with it being changed to do this.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • ron#1747 ron Member Posts: 115 Arc User
    > @noworries#8859 said:
    > That can only be removed if the damage reduction changes to a lower amount, such as 20-25% that stacks on top of defense, instead of the essential immunity it does now. That is too powerful to go off frequently. But if the damage reduction part changes then it can have the cooldown removed fully.

    I agree with you, this power shouldn't go off frequently, and it's also a very cool power idea that I would hate to see changed, but the problem is that you put the 30% awareness on this daily. I'd advise putting it on another pally tank daily, perhaps to divine divine judgement or added as a self buff to shield of faith
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited January 2021
    ron#1747 said:

    > @noworries#8859 said:

    > That can only be removed if the damage reduction changes to a lower amount, such as 20-25% that stacks on top of defense, instead of the essential immunity it does now. That is too powerful to go off frequently. But if the damage reduction part changes then it can have the cooldown removed fully.



    I agree with you, this power shouldn't go off frequently, and it's also a very cool power idea that I would hate to see changed, but the problem is that you put the 30% awareness on this daily. I'd advise putting it on another pally tank daily, perhaps to divine divine judgement or added as a self buff to shield of faith

    The problem with Shield of Faith is that it only gives a 5% damage reduction. The new boss mechanics increase incoming damage dramatically and 5% is pretty much useless.

    Pally Dailies were nerfed into oblivion after two years of 'easy mode' tanking where players could run anything and take almost no damage for the entire run. Unfortunately (and typically) the changes went too far in the other direction, leading to players abandoning them completely, leading to the pre-mod 16 Binding Oath builds, which along with waaay over-powered temp health - led to another version of easy-mode tanking.

    Due to this, I understand the need for a more cautious approach from the devs, especially as once they make a change they typically don't revisit it for (on average) two years(!)

    Any reasonable player will want their main class to be 'comparable' instead of overpowered and the easiest way of achieving this is to look at classes in the same field - if those other classes are doing well but not TOO well, then they make a good blueprint to follow.

    In this case, I consider the Fighter tank to fall into this category: effective but not overpowered. That's why I've suggested that the DR and uptime of Bladed Rampart/Sharpened Senses be a blueprint for the Pally version.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited January 2021

    armadeonx said:

    @noworries#8859

    Hi, still no response as to whether you're going to remove the 3 minute cooldown on Shield o/t Gods - it'd be great if you could let us know please.

    That can only be removed if the damage reduction changes to a lower amount, such as 20-25% that stacks on top of defense, instead of the essential immunity it does now. That is too powerful to go off frequently. But if the damage reduction part changes then it can have the cooldown removed fully.
    Why not provide Deflect instead of damage reduction with Shield of the Gods?

    Barbarian receives +30% Awareness + 90% Critical Avoidance with Primal Instinct.
    Fighter receives +30% Awareness + 30% Defense with Bladed Rampart + Feat.

    Paladin could receive +30% Awarness + 30% Deflect with Divine Protector + Feat then every tank class would get 2 defense stats by using a specific Daily. This would make them a lot more balanced in terms of reaching stat caps.
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • sephiz#1200 sephiz Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited January 2021
    @noworries#8859

    I asked during today's stream and the answer I got made no sense. Could you explain what is the plan for the 5 cases of paladin covering HP?

    The cases are
    - Shift(block)
    - Tab
    - Tab+shift
    - Feated tab
    - Feated tab+shift

    Currently:
    Shift => 40% (gf/op/barb)
    TAB => 60% (gf), 50% (barb/op)
    TAB+ Shift => 40% (op)

    The answer I got was every tank path has a way to get 40%/60%. This is not true for barb or unfeated op.

    First of all tab+shift should be the % of tab + the perk of getting rooted by the shift like it has always been. No tab should ever be 40% especially the tab+shift should be stronger than just tab on paladins since it's just tab + a few extra perks. According to the answer I got barb and op should be 60% for tab/tab+shift.

    The other part of my question was about the feat that is exclusive to paladins. This feat makes the tab stronger and it now covers 75% of HP (as the tooltip currently says). If the plan is to make everyone have a 40%/60% it makes sense that if a class has a feat for this to then actually get a bit more when compared to the classes that don't have this feat and the non-feated version of this class since this is all the feat does therefore 40/60/75% should be fine. The other option is to force the usage of the feat to reach a 60% which every other class would reach w/o a feat which would be unfair.

    Currently the behavior of the feat is:
    Feated tab => 75% (expected behavior)
    Feated tab+shift => 60%


    To summarize the answer of the expected behavior should probably be one of these two

    GF: 40% (shift), 60% (tab)
    Barb: 40% (shift), 60% (tab)
    OP: 40% (shift), 60% (tab, tab+shift), 75% (feated tab, feated tab+shift)

    or

    GF: 40% (shift), 60% (tab)
    Barb: 40% (shift), 60% (tab)
    OP: 40% (shift), 50% (tab, tab+shift), 60% (feated tab, feated tab+shift)

    The option I would like is the 1st one since locking OP out of 60% if you don't pick a feat is unfair but the current behavior shown below makes no sense balance wise.

    GF: 40% (shift), 60% (tab)
    Barb: 40% (shift), 50% (tab)
    OP: 40% (shift), 50% (tab), 40% (tab+shift), 75% (feated tab), 60% (feated tab+shift)

    Edit: At least reword the feat with the expected behavior.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    hastati96 said:

    armadeonx said:

    @noworries#8859

    Hi, still no response as to whether you're going to remove the 3 minute cooldown on Shield o/t Gods - it'd be great if you could let us know please.

    That can only be removed if the damage reduction changes to a lower amount, such as 20-25% that stacks on top of defense, instead of the essential immunity it does now. That is too powerful to go off frequently. But if the damage reduction part changes then it can have the cooldown removed fully.
    Why not provide Deflect instead of damage reduction with Shield of the Gods?

    Barbarian receives +30% Awareness + 90% Critical Avoidance with Primal Instinct.
    Fighter receives +30% Awareness + 30% Defense with Bladed Rampart + Feat.

    Paladin could receive +30% Awarness + 30% Deflect with Divine Protector + Feat then every tank class would get 2 defense stats by using a specific Daily. This would make them a lot more balanced in terms of reaching stat caps.
    Please tell me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the new deflect mechanic proc 50% of the time and increasing Deflect raises its severity?

    If that is the case, its defensive capability is entirely random - which is not what tanks need.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
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    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
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  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited January 2021
    armadeonx said:

    hastati96 said:

    armadeonx said:

    @noworries#8859

    Hi, still no response as to whether you're going to remove the 3 minute cooldown on Shield o/t Gods - it'd be great if you could let us know please.

    That can only be removed if the damage reduction changes to a lower amount, such as 20-25% that stacks on top of defense, instead of the essential immunity it does now. That is too powerful to go off frequently. But if the damage reduction part changes then it can have the cooldown removed fully.
    Why not provide Deflect instead of damage reduction with Shield of the Gods?

    Barbarian receives +30% Awareness + 90% Critical Avoidance with Primal Instinct.
    Fighter receives +30% Awareness + 30% Defense with Bladed Rampart + Feat.

    Paladin could receive +30% Awarness + 30% Deflect with Divine Protector + Feat then every tank class would get 2 defense stats by using a specific Daily. This would make them a lot more balanced in terms of reaching stat caps.
    Please tell me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the new deflect mechanic proc 50% of the time and increasing Deflect raises its severity?

    If that is the case, its defensive capability is entirely random - which is not what tanks need.
    I am bit confused about your sentence. If we have 75% Deflect, we deflect 3 out of 4 hits (statistically ofc). The damage reduction that is applied if we Deflect, is our Deflect Severity.

    I am not sure tho whether Deflect Severity is some counter value (for power?) or is working like defense so 90% Deflect Severity is around halfing the incoming damage.

    I also wouldn't call that random. We know exactly how often we will Deflect (statistically ofc). Random would be a accidential value between 0% and 100%.
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • gweddeoran#4924 gweddeoran Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    @hastati96 Unfortunately, 90% Deflect Severity + 90% Deflect combined give you 0.9 * (1- 1/0.9) = 0.42x Damage Resistance = 42%. So your math is unfortunately incorrect. And just like Healers don't rely on Critical Heals to heal DPS in Heal Checks on Trials, Tanks NEVER rely on Deflects to Deflect those one-time big hits in a Trial since the 10% off-chance occurs, you DIE.
  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 484 Arc User
    > @gweddeoran#4924 said:
    > @hastati96 Unfortunately, 90% Deflect Severity + 90% Deflect combined give you 0.9 * (1- 1/0.9) = 0.42x Damage Resistance = 42%. So your math is unfortunately incorrect. And just like Healers don't rely on Critical Heals to heal DPS in Heal Checks on Trials, Tanks NEVER rely on Deflects to Deflect those one-time big hits in a Trial since the 10% off-chance occurs, you DIE.

    Huh what math I did? Deflect chance works exactly as I said above.

    Our Deflect Sev works as counter stat to enemies Accuracy (which is 90% btw) if I remember correctly.

    I also didnt say we rely on Deflect. In the end it still is an overall improvement for our survivability.
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,502 Arc User
    hastati96 said:

    > @gweddeoran#4924 said:

    > @hastati96 Unfortunately, 90% Deflect Severity + 90% Deflect combined give you 0.9 * (1- 1/0.9) = 0.42x Damage Resistance = 42%. So your math is unfortunately incorrect. And just like Healers don't rely on Critical Heals to heal DPS in Heal Checks on Trials, Tanks NEVER rely on Deflects to Deflect those one-time big hits in a Trial since the 10% off-chance occurs, you DIE.



    Huh what math I did? Deflect chance works exactly as I said above.



    Our Deflect Sev works as counter stat to enemies Accuracy (which is 90% btw) if I remember correctly.



    I also didnt say we rely on Deflect. In the end it still is an overall improvement for our survivability.

    Enemies do not have 90% accuracy...if they did, there would be no point to deflect severity.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,542 Arc User
    edited January 2021

    90% Deflect Severity + 90% Deflect combined give you 0.9 * (1- 1/0.9) = 0.42x Damage Resistance = 42%. So your math is unfortunately incorrect. E.

    0.9 * (1- 1/0.9) = -0.1 .....

    Deflect is perhaps:

    (1 / (1 + (Deflect Severity - Accuracy) / 100 * (Deflect Chance / 100)))

    Which for 0.9 and 0.9 in PvE will be:

    1 / (1 + 0.9 * 0.9) = 0.55 or ~45% Mitigation (averaged on infinite number of tests).
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    Thanks for the clarification on deflect.

    Maybe I've played the game for too long and am stuck in old thinking, but I don't see why there's suddenly all of this talk about deflect being utilised by tanks - deflect has always been the province of classes with good dodging and lower defence stats; so Rogues, Rangers etc. Defence (and now Awareness) has always been for those that have to 'stand there and take it': Fighters, Paladins and Barbarians.

    To move away from this would result in needing to max out more stats than the incoming changes will allow.

    In the case of the Paladin, it's Forte allotments are Defence/Crit Strike/Crit Avoid but bosses have now been given CA, meaning Pallys have to max Awareness with no help or boosts from their powers (except Divine Protector - only usable when feted but comes with a 3 min cooldown - which makes it unusable)

    Removing the secondary DR layer from Divine Protector (as suggested by @hastati96 ) and replacing it with Deflect would further increase incoming damage, with a 'chance' to deflect a percentage of it.

    I honestly cannot understand why the devs think its fine for Fighters to have 30% DR for a Daily but offer 20/25% DR to Paladins in order to remove the 3 minute cooldown from their version of it - we're not even asking for the damage reflect that Bladed Rampart gives - just the defensiveness!
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  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited January 2021
    @noworries#8859
    Thanks for the change to Shield of the Gods, this really should help balancing the tank classes.

    The tooltip seems a bit mixed up. Divine Protector gives 30% Awareness and 25% damage reduction. Is it intended to have 2 seperate durations, one 6 and the other 12 seconds?

    Post edited by hastati96 on
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • tardbathtardbath Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    edited January 2021
    adds 30% defense == reduce damage by 30%, right ? I might be wrong, sry didn't test that.

    Edit. Just saw the preview patch notes, it stucks with defense.
    Post edited by tardbath on
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