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  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,794 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    arazith07 said:


    You'll still have more defensive stats than a DPS will. A DPS class will normally be around 40-50% defense, which would equate to taking 80-75% of the damage original damage compared to a tanks 45% @90%. This also makes it where a Tank doesn't have to stack defense before anything else, or least where people will consider it more.

    Because of the hard cap, we didn't *have* to stack defense before....now we have even less of a reason to do so. All this does is make us less damaging dps, and keeps the whiny pew pew boys at bay because now they don't have to make any choices that have any consequences to their gameplay.

    When bosses have to take into account that 9/10ths of their damage in gone because of one stat, devs will increase the heck out of those attacks. Now if a tank who doesn't have 90% with the current system on preview were to face that attack, they won't have a means to survive unless they stack 90% defense. How is this a choice in your opinion?

    You have a 5 million damage tank buster hit from a boss (9mil after CA). Now you have a geared DPS with 50% on all defensive stats, That 5mil hit will become 3.5mil after Awareness and defense, will either crit for 4.9mil or not crit, and deflect severity is too low to make deflection any good. Either of these cases, the dps is dead, which is okay really because it's a tank buster and really isn't why they want to do this change.

    Now for a tank who doesn't invest in defense (as you say is possible) They can either go awareness, deflect/severity, or crit avoid. I think crit avoid we can ignore due to RNG and low enemy severity. So let's use awareness and deflect/sev. All defensive stats will be at least 45%, with 75% awareness, and 90% deflect/deflect severity. That same hit will be 3.3mil after awareness and defense, could crit for 4.8mil. Now we have a 90% chance to deflect it, which is pretty good, and that deflection can bring the crit down to 330k damage or 480k damage, yay the tank lives! But if we don't deflect it, either the crit or the non-crit will kill the tank. 10% chance of dying on a tank buster isn't a good build, especially when you rez, you lose 10% more defense.

    Now for the 90% defense tank, we'll move the deflect chance over from above. After awareness and defense, that hit will only do 600k, or crit for 930k. 45% chance to deflect it down to 93k crit or 60k hit.

    Now, for balance, that tank buster will likely have to be increased to balance in endgame content to actually bust a tank. So the non-defense tank will have an even worse time trying to survive. Defense as it stands on the preview server is too powerful to not stack it. It doesn't even come close to any other defensive stat.

    What the devs are proposing is to make defense more in line with what the other stats can do, and bring the damage totals down (though still being deadly for non tanks)

    I only have one question with the above; Is it possible for a tank to achieve the maxed defence, awareness & deflect severity given the current sources of stats? (also bearing in mind needing some offensive stats so the tank maintains aggro)
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  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 294 Arc User
    If changes didn't happen to def, supports in trials would be able to cap out the def of everyone, with dps only needing 50% def, very easily achievable. So dps knows, we can't effect your awareness, so good luck.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 764 Arc User
    edited December 2020


    this literally is like the failure of when elemental evil came out at the beginning all over again and people getting one shotted by mobs while doing content


    Please for players in support of this even Realize and recalculate the fact we are talking about doing this when in test server you got your bolsters at 100% fully geared up with max rank enchants



    Your new players and players in process of getting to end game are screwed doing content with the proposed damage idea

    This literally depends on the map setting, not on the stats or system. Before the last patch I went to the Dread Ring with 11k (naked, transmute IL1 weapon) Rogue. Note that Dread Ring opens ant 10K, so I was 10% over the minimum.
    It was tough, but it was easier than the difficulty back then when Valindra was a new addition - soloable without drinking potions (if you know your class and dodge around like a rabbit.) On 20k it becomes user friendly, 30k is a breeze.
    You can argue if starting at the hard mode is good or bad, but it is about the map setting and user skill. The mathematics behind are quite irrelevant.


    This is just ridiculous 110% total incoming damage with the armor penetration and from that calculate 0.85 incoming damage multiply that by combat advantage in my case 0.43 good luck ranged dps for real multiply to that if mob does critical Strike

    I would advise to forget about math, get the personal experience on the preview server - and if you find something really strange, report it for devs to do the fine tuning.


    Literally too much incoming damage for non end gamers to get their daily ad for me personally the alliance I am in would be decimated with such change for real we dont have lots of endgamers but role players and casuals who do content for fun and not to be best of the best



    Today I was helping my alliance we did elol hc for 6 times with failure, can you imagine how they would fare with this change being pushed

    Now this is actually in line with my experience from the random queues from live server. And I tell you what the new system is supposed to do: hardcap your HP and damage. This literally ensures that experience of anyone that can enqueue is not infinitely far from the "endgamer". But some difference will surely remain. Once again, the goal is for the dungeon to be challenging in the beginning and relaxing at the end of the spectrum.
    This serves as a motivation to improve your character.

    And sorry, but I will bite: ...HC failed? Oh, did it? The check box that is supposed to add difficulty... made it difficult? Really? Oh my gosh!
  • tardbathtardbath Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    So DEF stat is getting "nerfed" , no mention though to tank's HP( and %incoming Healing if i can ad, to Help Healers) getting a boost. Even Rainer in his proposal suggested that!
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    @noworries#8859 thanks for buffing blessed set. Now celestial set will be changed yes? Get rid of the stacking requirement please and make it 10% bonus after one encounter for 10 seconds. Or just copy/paste blessed set bonus and add 1% to each stat. It has to be better than blessed set and lionguard set.
  • brewaldbrewald Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 209 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    arazith07 said:


    You'll still have more defensive stats than a DPS will. A DPS class will normally be around 40-50% defense, which would equate to taking 80-75% of the damage original damage compared to a tanks 45% @90%. This also makes it where a Tank doesn't have to stack defense before anything else, or least where people will consider it more.

    Because of the hard cap, we didn't *have* to stack defense before....now we have even less of a reason to do so. All this does is make us less damaging dps, and keeps the whiny pew pew boys at bay because now they don't have to make any choices that have any consequences to their gameplay.

    When bosses have to take into account that 9/10ths of their damage in gone because of one stat, devs will increase the heck out of those attacks. Now if a tank who doesn't have 90% with the current system on preview were to face that attack, they won't have a means to survive unless they stack 90% defense. How is this a choice in your opinion?

    You have a 5 million damage tank buster hit from a boss (9mil after CA). Now you have a geared DPS with 50% on all defensive stats, That 5mil hit will become 3.5mil after Awareness and defense, will either crit for 4.9mil or not crit, and deflect severity is too low to make deflection any good. Either of these cases, the dps is dead, which is okay really because it's a tank buster and really isn't why they want to do this change.

    Now for a tank who doesn't invest in defense (as you say is possible) They can either go awareness, deflect/severity, or crit avoid. I think crit avoid we can ignore due to RNG and low enemy severity. So let's use awareness and deflect/sev. All defensive stats will be at least 45%, with 75% awareness, and 90% deflect/deflect severity. That same hit will be 3.3mil after awareness and defense, could crit for 4.8mil. Now we have a 90% chance to deflect it, which is pretty good, and that deflection can bring the crit down to 330k damage or 480k damage, yay the tank lives! But if we don't deflect it, either the crit or the non-crit will kill the tank. 10% chance of dying on a tank buster isn't a good build, especially when you rez, you lose 10% more defense.

    Now for the 90% defense tank, we'll move the deflect chance over from above. After awareness and defense, that hit will only do 600k, or crit for 930k. 45% chance to deflect it down to 93k crit or 60k hit.

    Now, for balance, that tank buster will likely have to be increased to balance in endgame content to actually bust a tank. So the non-defense tank will have an even worse time trying to survive. Defense as it stands on the preview server is too powerful to not stack it. It doesn't even come close to any other defensive stat.

    What the devs are proposing is to make defense more in line with what the other stats can do, and bring the damage totals down (though still being deadly for non tanks)

    I only have one question with the above; Is it possible for a tank to achieve the maxed defence, awareness & deflect severity given the current sources of stats? (also bearing in mind needing some offensive stats so the tank maintains aggro)
    Currently it's not possible, with maxing companions and optimisation. At least on OP.
    Brewald - GWF 18.3k
    Eleonore - CW Mof Renegade 17.5k
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    Valrik - DC AC 18.2k
    Furiela - SW Temp 18.1k
  • sekosek#5740 sekosek Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    Reinforcement kits stats need to be balanced. 1 Major +1 Kit can give 880 to a single stat. While 1 Rank 15 Enchantment can give 300 stat. 1 Kit worths around 40-50k AD, 1 Rank15 enchantment can worth over 1.5-2m AD. This stat ratio needs to be fixed.

    Also, Power, Accuracy, Critical Strike and Critical Severity Reinforcement Kits are being applied to armor items(head, armor, arms, feet). While Combat Advantage Kits is being applied to jewelry items(neck, belt, rings). Maybe Combat Advantage Reinforcement Kits should be applied to armor parts, not jewelry parts. Same thing applies for Awareness too.

    And you can put Boosts like Recharge speed, Action Point Gain, Movement Speed, Stamina Regeneration(which already exists) on jewelry reinforcement kits.
  • sekosek#5740 sekosek Member Posts: 106 Arc User

    @noworries#8859 the balance on weapon enchantments after yesterdays patch is a bit off in my opinion. Bilethorn was already equal to vorpal for most classes in mod 19 on live server in damage (wizard/barbarian/warlock bilethorn wins by a lot, other classes its more of a tie or vorpal wins).

    With the recent patch, bilethorn is undoubtedly the best weapon enchantment for all dps classes, with no competitor, since the magnitude was buffed and vorpal was nerfed. My suggestions are as follows:

    Flaming/Dread/Plaguefire all have magnitude procs, but they proc once per second instead of once per hit like bilethorn does. Either change bilethorn to proc once per second instead of per hit, or change Flaming/Dread/Plaguefire to proc per hit instead of per second (second suggestion preferred). These four enchantments should proc their magnitudes in the same way otherwise it will create quite an imbalance. This will give players more choice.

    for Vorpal, try buffing the crit strike to 6% and buff the CA to 4%. As of right now its operating at a large damage disadvantage compared to others.

    I agree on, this balance on Weapon Enchantments was not really effective. As its said above, now only choice for DPS is Bilethorn, because its way stronger than others. Because Bilethorn works based on how many times can you hit, instead of X hit per second like other enchants. This creates an unfair result and makes it harder to balance.

    Another problem with Bilethorn is, its not a consistent enchantment. It acts differently on different classes and different powers. Lets look at the magnitude damage proc bonus. Normally, if the initial hit from a power, which procs bilethorn, crits; bilethorn proc crits too. If power does not crit, bilethorn does not crit either. This is how it works with most weapon enchantments. But on every class, bilethorn works differently on different powers. Such as:
    -Some powers bilethorn proc can critically hit, for example Ray of Frost from Wizards,
    -Some powers bilethorn proc cannot critically hit, for example Brash Strike from Barbarians,
    -Some powers proc bilethorn more than 1 time, for example Hellish Rebuke from Warlocks.

    I can keep giving examples, for atwills, encounters, dailies, list would grow bigger and bigger. And there are some powers which does not even proc Weapon Enchantments at all.

    Either change the way how Bilethorn works to match other enchantments, or fix the bugs on it, but it would require checking literally every power on each class.

    Also please make other enchantments balanced between each other too. For example some Enchantments proc their bonuses on a single Atwill, some works all the time as passively, and some only gets activated from a Daily power.

    For example Feytouched and Terror Enchantments are way less useful compared to others, because they are only connected to Daily powers. Please balance them based on how they proc, and how much they affect.

    Maybe try to give similar amount of damages to them, and give them 5% of buffing a stat or 5% debuffing a stat on enemy. So there will not be only 1 or 2 best in slot enchantments, but it will be better to have 1 of each Weapon Enchantment in a party to make it more effective party wise. So people choose their bonuses and visuals, instead of just going for the best in slot enchant without thinking.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 556 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    rubytrue said:

    arazith07 said:

    rubytrue said:

    We have a build coming up where we have Defense and Deflect Severity swapped over to the same scale as other attributes so we will be testing that out, see how it is going and continue to make adjustments from there.

    This means that defense will still go up to 90%, but like 100% power would double damage, 100% Defense would halve damage.

    If you wind up going through with this on live eventually, remind me again why I should play a tank, please.....

    Mod 20: Curse of the Archlich's Wet Noodle.


    You'll still have more defensive stats than a DPS will. A DPS class will normally be around 40-50% defense, which would equate to taking 80-75% of the damage original damage compared to a tanks 45% @90%. This also makes it where a Tank doesn't have to stack defense before anything else, or least where people will consider it more.
    Because of the hard cap, we didn't *have* to stack defense before....now we have even less of a reason to do so. All this does is make us less damaging dps, and keeps the whiny pew pew boys at bay because now they don't have to make any choices that have any consequences to their gameplay.
    When bosses have to take into account that 9/10ths of their damage in gone because of one stat, devs will increase the heck out of those attacks. Now if a tank who doesn't have 90% with the current system on preview were to face that attack, they won't have a means to survive unless they stack 90% defense. How is this a choice in your opinion?

    You have a 5 million damage tank buster hit from a boss (9mil after CA). Now you have a geared DPS with 50% on all defensive stats, That 5mil hit will become 3.5mil after Awareness and defense, will either crit for 4.9mil or not crit, and deflect severity is too low to make deflection any good. Either of these cases, the dps is dead, which is okay really because it's a tank buster and really isn't why they want to do this change.

    Now for a tank who doesn't invest in defense (as you say is possible) They can either go awareness, deflect/severity, or crit avoid. I think crit avoid we can ignore due to RNG and low enemy severity. So let's use awareness and deflect/sev. All defensive stats will be at least 45%, with 75% awareness, and 90% deflect/deflect severity. That same hit will be 3.3mil after awareness and defense, could crit for 4.8mil. Now we have a 90% chance to deflect it, which is pretty good, and that deflection can bring the crit down to 330k damage or 480k damage, yay the tank lives! But if we don't deflect it, either the crit or the non-crit will kill the tank. 10% chance of dying on a tank buster isn't a good build, especially when you rez, you lose 10% more defense.

    Now for the 90% defense tank, we'll move the deflect chance over from above. After awareness and defense, that hit will only do 600k, or crit for 930k. 45% chance to deflect it down to 93k crit or 60k hit.

    Now, for balance, that tank buster will likely have to be increased to balance in endgame content to actually bust a tank. So the non-defense tank will have an even worse time trying to survive. Defense as it stands on the preview server is too powerful to not stack it. It doesn't even come close to any other defensive stat.

    What the devs are proposing is to make defense more in line with what the other stats can do, and bring the damage totals down (though still being deadly for non tanks)
    If you read through my posts throughout this thread, you will notice that the 90% damage resistance was hard capped; this means that *all* forms of damage resistance such as effects from class features and feats, effects from companions, effects from consumables, effects from gear, etc. went towards that cap (most of these ways did not show up in the total damage resisted column on the right hand side). I don't think any tank would deliberately *try* to get less than the damage resistance cap; my point was that there were a *lot* of different ways they could *choose* to get to the cap--and one of those ways was to have their defense significantly lower than 90% and use these other methods in lieu of defense. (Going the straight 90% defense route obviated the need for these other items, so you could *choose* to replace them with items that contributed elsewhere such as different defensive effects or offensive effects.)

    Hope that clears things up for you.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Right now, it is possible to cap 4 stats, but not 5.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 890 Arc User
    > @sekosek#5740 said:
    > Reinforcement kits stats need to be balanced. 1 Major +1 Kit can give 880 to a single stat. While 1 Rank 15 Enchantment can give 300 stat. 1 Kit worths around 40-50k AD, 1 Rank15 enchantment can worth over 1.5-2m AD. This stat ratio needs to be fixed.
    >
    > Also, Power, Accuracy, Critical Strike and Critical Severity Reinforcement Kits are being applied to armor items(head, armor, arms, feet). While Combat Advantage Kits is being applied to jewelry items(neck, belt, rings). Maybe Combat Advantage Reinforcement Kits should be applied to armor parts, not jewelry parts. Same thing applies for Awareness too.
    >
    > And you can put Boosts like Recharge speed, Action Point Gain, Movement Speed, Stamina Regeneration(which already exists) on jewelry reinforcement kits.

    You are forgetting the combined rating x15 in your calculations for reinforcement kits vs enchantments
    Elite Whaleboy
  • tardbathtardbath Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    Are you seriously asking for a kit nerf, when every time we get more ilvl make us need more stats ? You can also ask for nerf in the offhand weapon modification that grants 2.5k stats, it's too much.. Unbelievable.
  • sekosek#5740 sekosek Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    You are forgetting the combined rating x15 in your calculations for reinforcement kits vs enchantments

    Even if you count the combined ratings, if you compared with a single stat enchantment, it gives 300 stat + 180 combined rating. Which means 180*15 + 300 = 3000 stats. 1 kit gives 880 stats. You buy/make the kit for lets say averagely 50k. 1 Rank15 enchantment is around 1.5m to 2.5m, lets say averagely 2m.

    How is it any balanced or fair that spending 50 k for 880 stats and spending 2m for 3000 stats? You can compare with other things too if you want, almost everything had balanced, but not kits. I am giving feedback that maybe they might have forgotten about those because they should not be a huge source of stats in the first place. They are meant to be just small upgrades.
    tardbath said:

    Are you seriously asking for a kit nerf, when every time we get more ilvl make us need more stats ? You can also ask for nerf in the offhand weapon modification that grants 2.5k stats, it's too much.. Unbelievable.

    Did you look at how much stat it gives compared to other stuff? Its not about asking for a nerf, its about making it balanced based on the changes, devs also explained that it will not be possible to cap all stats so that we will have to make choices and make builds. What is the point on keeping unbalanced stuff?

    I am not asking for a nerf, Im asking it to be balanced. Its not like balancing kit bonuses will make you unable to finish dungeons. Changes are still on preview and they are working on balancing everything. Its better to tell them now about unchanged/forgotten things, rather than telling after they are finished with everything.

    And my feedback wasnt just about "nerfing" them, it was also about stat placing on kits about where they should be applied. Stop looking at things only from bad side and stop judging everything as "its a nerf!!".

  • dududududusadududududusa Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    @noworries#8859 1.Batiri damage bonus does not increase damage of bilethorn effects(poison) 2. Haunting hawk increase only at wills damage about too big amount for example on barbarian its like 40-50k per hit(it also should not works on melee classes like the tooltip say) 3. Hellish rebuke( at will) of sw procs 2x bilethorn ticks by using it 1x. It should be changed before it will go on live 4. Like @sekosek#5740 said our at wills should be able to make bilethorns poison in crit strike...
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 467 Arc User
    Vorpal's new bonus gets to be pathetic so bad it is! +2% CA when you activate a daily? Lol that's less than a companion on the legendary level. Meanwhile the bilethorn is the most damage and you just need to click. Interesting this perspective of balanece.
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited December 2020



    when i do full hit( no deflect) my effectiveness is 66,7% instead of 50% from a previous patch what is going on?

    Enemy defense = 50%.

    New defense formula: damage = base_damage / (1 + Defense)

    So base_damage is being divided by 1.5, which is the same thing as being multiplied by 0.667 = 66.7% effectiveness.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User



    when i do full hit( no deflect) my effectiveness is 66,7% instead of 50% from a previous patch what is going on?

    Enemy defense = 50%.

    New defense formula: damage = base_damage / (1 + Defense)

    So base_damage is being divided by 1.5, which is the same thing as being multiplied by 0.667 = 66.7% effectiveness.
    Is the formula for deflect/accuracy the same as this? I saw noworries post about this somewhere. In which case, has accuracy been diminished as a stat?
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 640 Cryptic Developer

    So I done some testing on my Paladin Oathkeeper. From what I could ascertain, Healers don't gain any benefit to their Healing powers from any +% Power and Critical severity buffs, like boons, passive companions, food etc. The only thing to give any benefit is from the actual rating, which is capped to 50%. I tested with buffs from Boons, Baby Deepcrow, Alpha Compy, Wild Storm Elixer and Superior Flask of Potency.

    As well as that I went and tested the Critical Chance on healing and it also appeared to be capped at 50%. I done a 17 min long test with nearly 400 casts and got 50%, when my character sheet displayed 64%, from the Rating and other buffs, like the boons, Black dragon Ioun and Quickling.

    Here is my notes from my testing: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQ5YO14QE6nyiQ8sRM-_d9_vUThmEVy64dWAw5dbzv6weSHXhBdaX-8SCa5u3cbijJOP8zm0hW_UXOJ/pub

    So I ask, is this intentional, to limit Healers to 50% Power, Critical Strike Chance and Critical Severity?

    Critical Severity is halved for heals still as it is on live.

    I found a bug with Critical Strike for heals, that should be fixed in a future build.

    I'm not immediately seeing anything that would be affecting Power's maximum on heals but I will look deeper into that one.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,147 Arc User
    hi



    when i do full hit( no deflect) my effectiveness is 66,7% instead of 50% from a previous patch what is going on?

    Enemy defense = 50%.

    New defense formula: damage = base_damage / (1 + Defense)

    So base_damage is being divided by 1.5, which is the same thing as being multiplied by 0.667 = 66.7% effectiveness.
    Is the formula for deflect/accuracy the same as this? I saw noworries post about this somewhere. In which case, has accuracy been diminished as a stat?
    Deflect severity has been changed just as Defense has been. So yes, having more accuracy will diminish as you approach 90%.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 764 Arc User

    If tanks were to say go up to 30% bonus hitpoints, we'd have DPS go up to 30% damage bonus as well. Before doing that I'd like to see how balance is working out with the new changes.

    Without Abyssal Chicken/Xuna excessive behaviour, tanks do 1/3 of DPS damage. Spreading the gap even further will make it impossible to balance solo content.
    Actually, that is why it would be advisable to make fully buffed companions do 50% damage of DPS char. By sacrificing insignia bonuses and a lot of stats tank would be able to reach 3/4 of DPS class damage output - which would make solo stuff bearable.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    If tanks were to say go up to 30% bonus hitpoints, we'd have DPS go up to 30% damage bonus as well. Before doing that I'd like to see how balance is working out with the new changes.

    Without Abyssal Chicken/Xuna excessive behaviour, tanks do 1/3 of DPS damage. Spreading the gap even further will make it impossible to balance solo content.
    Actually, that is why it would be advisable to make fully buffed companions do 50% damage of DPS char. By sacrificing insignia bonuses and a lot of stats tank would be able to reach 3/4 of DPS class damage output - which would make solo stuff bearable.
    50% is extremely excessive. A tanks role is to tank, even in pvp. In PVP their role would be to hold the node, not dish out damage. We want augments and actives to be in line with each other.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 890 Arc User

    wilbur626 said:

    > @noworries#8859 said:

    > We have a build coming up where we have Defense and Deflect Severity swapped over to the same scale as other attributes so we will be testing that out, see how it is going and continue to make adjustments from there.

    >

    > This means that defense will still go up to 90%, but like 100% power would double damage, 100% Defense would halve damage.



    This is great news for the tanks!

    Did you do any adjustments to critter armor penetration or to tank paragons +% HP?

    The critter armor pen was removed at the same time.

    I have no adjusted class bonuses with this update. If tanks were to say go up to 30% bonus hitpoints, we'd have DPS go up to 30% damage bonus as well. Before doing that I'd like to see how balance is working out with the new changes.
    Initial testing shows there is absolutely no need to adjust tank HP to compensate for the defense stat change.
    Elite Whaleboy
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