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Official - Combat Changes - Forte

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  • synyster3006synyster3006 Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Having Critical Severity as Forte stat is really useless for DPS classes in my opinion. Since there are several sources to reach the 90% cap.
    Would be better and fair in terms of balance to replace it with CA, Accuracy or Crit Chance.

    Take for example the Cleric Arbiter.
    I managed to reach 90% out of combat with 10k Critical Severity under rating, having only Dark enchantments giving Forte and boon. (No companions giving crit sev).
    In other toons that has not that stat in forte, i also reach 90% pretty easily.
    Then we have Vorpal Enchantment, that becomes useless since it cannot go over 90%, and we have not other alternatives since we do few hits.
    Please reconsider, at least for this paragon, to replace Critical Severity with something else usefull.

    Thanks,
    Aster
    Post edited by synyster3006 on
  • forumaccount#7167 forumaccount Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    I agree it's pretty easy to cap crit severity even without it being a forte stat. There's the wildstorm elixir for 10%, the offhand modification for 10%, potent precision for 7.5%, the boon for 1%, a collar for up to 5%. And also a lot of companions with bonuses to crit severity and the guild boon and luck based stuff like the forger's box.

    It is way harder to get the bonus percentages in the not rating category for most other stats. For the most part it's just Boons, companion powers, ability scores. So I would also prefer if crit severity in the forte stat was swapped for something else.

    As an assassin rogue I really appreciate that crit severity was swapped for combat advantage.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 406 Arc User

    Having Critical Severity as Forte stat is really useless for DPS classes in my opinion. Since there are several sources to reach the 90% cap.

    Would be better and fair in terms of balance to replace it with CA, Accuracy or Crit Chance.



    Take for example the Cleric Arbiter.

    I managed to reach 90% out of combat with 10k Critical Severity under rating, having only Dark enchantments giving Forte and boon. (No companions giving crit sev).

    In other toons that has not that stat in forte, i also reach 90% pretty easily.

    Then we have Vorpal Enchantment, that becomes useless since it cannot go over 90%, and we have not other alternatives since we do few hits.

    Please reconsider, at least for this paragon, to replace Critical Severity with something else usefull.



    Thanks,

    Aster

    Vorpal's Critical Severity counts as an extra 90% of the cap and the only attribute added to the ratings would be the statuses acquired when using a Daily Power (+2% critical chance - i think).
  • synyster3006synyster3006 Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    > @admiralwarlord#3792 said:
    > Vorpal's Critical Severity counts as an extra 90% of the cap and the only attribute added to the ratings would be the statuses acquired when using a Daily Power (+2% critical chance - i think).

    Well, i tested it, and it’s true. But no one confirmed that is intended.
    Anyway, the main problem is that having Critical Severity as a Forte stat is really wasted and penalizing for a DPS, especially in terms of balancing with other classes which can equally reach 90% pretty easy.
    For example i’ve my wizard and ranger with 90% crit severity and much higher percentages compared to the Cleric and the Barbarian. (Same equipment and pretty same IL)

    Thanks,
    Aster
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 406 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    After the changes made, Hunter is the best class in the game, since it is the only one that achieves the attributes of the image.

    https://ibb.co/g71SF9X

    Depending on how an insignia bonus works, it can reach 72% critical chance casually.

    It's much easier to give us a chance to choose than to try to differentiate ourselves in a rigid way.

    In my country there is a popular expression that is ''drying the ice''. I will not call it nerf, but an appreciation, since you have greatly reduced an attribute for it to be valued. This hasn't changed the fact that having Accuracy in the cap is better than having Critical Severity in the Fort. In my GWF builds it is only possible for me to achieve 90% Accuracy with Companion Enhancement Power that occurs randomly. But just criticizing is easy, I'll leave as a suggestion the creation of a companion with 7.5% Accuracy (Mythical) before these changes reach the live server, or an adaptation, Swap the 7.5% Power of Alpha Compy for Accuracy and add when in Chult + 7.5% Power.

    As I quoted my previous comment so that it is notorious how having Accuracy in the Forte makes it easier to get the cap of the statuses that I believe everyone will focus on.

    https://ibb.co/Xz3WFgW
  • elderislt#1066 elderislt Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    I can't found whu post screen shot withfull capp, power, acc and crit severity, but low CA Wats is important, so yea better get less acc and more CA or be in party with 4 hunters and turn on aspect of the pack (+25%) CA for all party, so hunters can cap, pow, acc, ca, and crit severity at max 90% with 57%crit rate, still I try got ansver or hunter class feature suppose to stack :3
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/413698364954116109/789219186072485918/4_cap.PNG
    BABY ZARIEL.... 270k base HUNTER
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,076 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Hunters were already very good, but this system is perfect for them. Accuracy in forte and awesome skills and features that have good sinergy with % values.

    Wizards only can dream. We will find a way :D (trying tank build xD)
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 90 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    I would like to suggest, a "compromise" between open selection which has it's own issues, lack of trade offs, and per the post has implementation problems, and the current fixed per paragon thing, that will always make someone not happy with the choice they get, either it's not optimal, creates loser classes, doesn't fit play style, doesn't match with the gear and so on.

    Seems to me that technically forte bonus works like sort of a feat that creates multipliers to other stats (very simple).

    So how about this, create several Forte groups, they can be of couple of stats or more. And allow a selection of the Forte group.
    Each can come with some less welcomed stats, or all can be aimed towards actual specializations, that's up to the designers to chose. It leaves the option to add more of them in the future, and all the currently implemented can be used.

    Ideas can be, Forte distributions for: healers, dps with more focused, dps with more spread, dps with focus on crit, more tanky dps, control oriented dps, tank with deflect, tank with awareness, "balanced" that spread little to all major stats. etc.. (just ideas)


    They can even balance around more focused stats have less bonus overall, while more stats give a bit more, similar to one stats vs triple enchants. Three stat forte can be 50,25,25, totals to 100% while a 5 stat forte can be 25 20 20 20 20 totaling to 105%
    Or the other way, more stats you spread, less total you get (it's late and I didn't really think what's better or worse)

    For example, and the names and actual stats distributions are just for the example, a player can choose any one distribution, but only one, regardless of the role or paragon. The names are only to convey the idea here.

    'Healer Forte':

    Power: 30%
    Outgoing Healing: 30%
    Resource Regen thing: 30%
    Defense: 10%

    DPS Forte 1:

    Power: 30%
    Accuracy: 30%
    Critical Strike: 20%
    Deflect: 20%

    Tanky Control:

    Power: 20%
    Control Bonus: 40%
    Defense: 40%

    Tanky:

    Accuracy: 20%
    Deflect: 40%
    Defense: 40%


    And so on.....

    The groups are predetermined and hardcoded, but allow selection as a spec, and players can vary per PvP / PvE, play style, and what not.

    Visually it can be something like this:



    Selected part of the spec, one option out of the possibilities. It will also create thematic cohesion with players can chose some specialization for their character.

    Edit: In other words: Having a number of presets and picking one of those.

    is it serious that nothing has been done or said regarding this idea? this new system is good for 1 reason, different build options, and the fact that Strong Termor fixed in specific statictics breaks the whole good part of the system.

    This idea of the Forte groups is very good, and I would go further in terms of freedom and leave the 3 fort statuses entirely up to the player. being able to be on the screen of powers to choose, or even in a UI more simple inside the own statistics panel with buttons to activate and deactivate as in the image below.



    I know that this freedom can bring more difficulty with regard to balancing, however I see that with this new system of statistics the changes made in the classes for the purpose of balancing will be very long-lasting. I believe that this brings to the game a new life in the immersive and customized part of your way of playing.


  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited December 2020



    Cool Idea. It is my understanding that they purposely wanted forte to be different and tied to paragon, to force different builds and equipment... to reduce the universality of BiS equips.

    Maybe a hybrid is possible, where 25% of forte is slotted to each of the 3 categories automatically, and players get to personally slot the last category to get 25% like on your graphic. It could be made permanent, once selected, but be changeable with a respec token or 50,000 AD. (the two sub-categories would not be selectable.. they would be pre-highlighted. Selecting your primary would be allowed.. bringing it up to 50% contribution.
  • gweddrygweddry Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 275 Arc User
    If forte as a system has to stay, I'd really like to see it changed to selectable, even if it's choosing between presets. Forte has a very high impact on the performance of a class and it will likely come to a point where one class simply can't compete with another.

    Speaking from PvP perspective, HR forte is the worst of all classes, having two completely useless stats. Unless forte becomes selectable which I'd prefer, please consider changing our deflect to any other defensive stat (defense or critical avoidance preferred, but even awareness would be an improvement) and our accuracy to any other offensive stat (ideally critical severity or critical strike).
  • agodbeaagodbea Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    They could make so you had two options for forte one depending on class and one depending on race.
    Would make the races more different and make them make a fortune in race reroll tokens.
  • twidget72twidget72 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    @noworries#8859

    Not really sure where this could go, so I figured I would put it in here with the Combat Changes-Forte since it is related to the Forte stat.

    As a Devout Cleric our Forte stat gives

    Paragon 50% Stat | 25% Stat 1 | 25% Stat 2
    Divinity Regen | Critical Severity | Deflect

    I would like to add a suggestion to give a place on the Stat Ratings list to show our actual Divinity Regeneration Rating or %. While I know many people would not really think this is an issue; it can go a long way to helping some players fine tune their builds and maximize their regen potential based on certain Encounters, Mechanics and Feats used. I admit I don't really know what my Divinity Regen is currently on live or on Preview server as there is no actual rating for it.

    Encounter:
    Divine Glow - threat reduction, added effect Divinity Regeneration 12s.

    Mechanic:
    Righteousness - Increases effectiveness of healing spells (outgoing healing?) reduces divinity cost of healing spells and reduces threat generated by healing spells. Increased Divinity Regeneration Rate (is this percentage based or a fixed number?)

    Feat:
    Cycle of Prayer Increases Divinity Regeneration Rate every 3 seconds (is this percentage based or a fixed number?), may stack up to 4 times. Resets stacks whenever an action consumes Divinity.

    I would just like to see something in the Stat Ratings; maybe under BOOSTS that would allow a Devout Cleric to see what their actual Divinity Regeneration is. This could be fit into this category well as it will adjust in combat like the other Boosts do.

    Thanks for reading
    Khelgall Deepstone
    Outcasts of Neverwinter
    80 Devout Cleric
  • rosh#3730 rosh Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    So when other classes can get my secondary offensive forte critical severity to 90% without any dps stats loss how is this fair ? And my accuracy fully stacked up at 66% with companion enchantment power in comparison to them how is this fair?

    Crit severity forte should be changed or extremly diminish items that gives critical severity so that all classes are on common ground period
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    So when other classes can get my secondary offensive forte critical severity to 90% without any dps stats loss how is this fair ? And my accuracy fully stacked up at 66% with companion enchantment power in comparison to them how is this fair?



    Crit severity forte should be changed or extremly diminish items that gives critical severity so that all classes are on common ground period

    I suspect Superior Flask of Potency and Wild Storm Elixir will be reworked (along with the other elixir/flask potions). They currently do not fit with the new system, as critical severity is a primary stat and no longer a utility stat, which makes the 17.5% critical severity from the two combined very excessive. I imagine these potions will only add stats to contribution (instead of rating), and also suspect the values will be decreased. My suggestion would be 2.5% to power/accuracy/crit/crit sev for flask, storm elixir 2.5% crit/crit sev or something like this. That way having crit sev forte won't be a burden.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 406 Arc User

    So when other classes can get my secondary offensive forte critical severity to 90% without any dps stats loss how is this fair ? And my accuracy fully stacked up at 66% with companion enchantment power in comparison to them how is this fair?



    Crit severity forte should be changed or extremly diminish items that gives critical severity so that all classes are on common ground period

    I suspect Superior Flask of Potency and Wild Storm Elixir will be reworked (along with the other elixir/flask potions). They currently do not fit with the new system, as critical severity is a primary stat and no longer a utility stat, which makes the 17.5% critical severity from the two combined very excessive. I imagine these potions will only add stats to contribution (instead of rating), and also suspect the values will be decreased. My suggestion would be 2.5% to power/accuracy/crit/crit sev for flask, storm elixir 2.5% crit/crit sev or something like this. That way having crit sev forte won't be a burden.
    It can adjust or nerf everything, which will do no good. Critical Severity is a damage modifier that depends on how much critical chance you have. With 90% accuracy you do not depend on another status, it is simple and easy to understand. If you find a PVP player pre-mod 16, ask him to explain to you why his builds only focused on Power and Armor Penetration. If i don't find any, i believe it still exists on Youtube or mmominds.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 406 Arc User
    @noworries#8859

    Well, since no one has shown me the new damage formula, and from what I've read, I believe it now works as Power works on the live server, with decreasing gains. In doing so we return to square one, since there is now the problem of Combat Advantage being much stronger, than the other statuses. Why wasn't the same Accuracy formula used for CA? It's a huge disadvantage to have Critical Severity in the Forte and I believe you know that. Before such changes reach the live server do you intend to make any adjustments to the GWF class?

    I question that, because it will almost certainly be the worst class in the game. Just observe the powers of the class: Barbed Strikes, in live: Increases the severity of your critical strikes by 25%; on the preview server: +2.5%. Raging Strikes (Increases your critical severity by 10% when under the effect of Battlerage or Unstoppable) is currently the same as it is in the preview, only now Critical Severity has a roof. This, added to the changes in magnitude that were made in this module made the class viable, I speak feasible because it is not the strongest. In my rank I believe it occupies the 4th position among the 7 DPS classes.

    To be demo, I'll be putting images of a construction of a TR with almost the same equipment as one of the build's I did for my GWF, all trying to achieve maximum status.

    TR preview: https://ibb.co/PGR10W4

    GWF preview: https://ibb.co/BGJZwkL

    Finally, I would remind you that I was here in the preview of Mod 16 and remember very well when came out the first patch and the GWF class came super strong, but after many nerf's in the following pacht's it became rubbish for a long time, even with many warning you that you were killing the class. Now I'm here again warning and I hope this time it happens differently.
  • rosh#3730 rosh Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    @noworries#8859
    Barbarian BladeMaster is performing so Bad

    SW damage is just Nuts
    TR damage can break Chult Training Dummy
    HR damage is over the roof with Bugs not fixed till now and this was reported by Players in Bug Section

    Barbarian Blademaster DPS on ACT Chart Bilethorn DOT's Damage Percentage is 20%
    So When Bilethorn is adjusted Probably to 40% to be inline with Other Enchants that will significantly lower the Barbarian's DPS

    Assume my Forte is 60% that means my critical Severity from Forte is 15%
    Please Re-adjust Consumables because as of Right Now Wildstorm Elixir grants 10% Critical Severity and the Potion from Alchemy Grants 7.3% Critical Severity

    That means through consumables any class can get a Barbarian BladeMaster's Secondary Forte using Consumables Without Losing on any other Offensive Stats to Get to My Class Caps (Which is unfair)

    If you don't want to adjust Consumables then please Change the Barbarian's Secondary Forte because as of now it is at very very bad spot




  • masterogamasteroga Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Didnt read all responses but....

    1) Forte on UTILITY SLOTS is super bad. It will be literally the only option you can run now. Remove Forte from all utility enchantments!!!!

    2) Divinity Regeneration tied to Forte. Do you not see a gigantic problem with this? A low level healer will have much greater problems with divinity management than a fully geared healer. Absolutely astounding bad game design, whomever thought this up should be terminated at once
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,076 Arc User
    It would be nice if the system could work without forte, it causes more problems that it fixes, but I think is too late for that.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    masteroga said:

    Didnt read all responses but....



    1) Forte on UTILITY SLOTS is super bad. It will be literally the only option you can run now. Remove Forte from all utility enchantments!!!!



    2) Divinity Regeneration tied to Forte. Do you not see a gigantic problem with this? A low level healer will have much greater problems with divinity management than a fully geared healer. Absolutely astounding bad game design, whomever thought this up should be terminated at once

    1. I think this is more an issue that the other options should be buffed. If you remove Forte, that makes Incoming healing as the only option for endgame utility slots, should that be removed too?
    2. Isn't point of gearing up to make things easier and be able to do more content? Should people who come up with the idea that the better gear you get the less time you need to kill enemy be terminated at once too? Your logic just doesn't make sense.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    Divinity regen is not really any different from adding charisma to have shorter cooldowns, that being said the amount really needs to be increased, too much forte has to be stacked to match divinity regen on live and the changes are suppose to make healers more needed, so they'll need to spend more divinity.
  • masterogamasteroga Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Arazith: The point of UTILITY slots is to provide UTILITY. If your utility slots are simply providing valuable slats....either change all other utility options so they can compete or remove the problem (much easier to remove the problem).

    Your healing already gets stronger as you gain item level....why make your resource management harder at lower levels? If you dont understand this....dont know what to tell ya
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 241 Arc User
    You have boons and insignias that also give forte, utility slots can be utility. As for resource management tanks have the same situation, wasted your taunt during second phase in zariel? Fail tank swap for lack of hard taunt. Wasted Daily and encounter for damage reduction? Get slaughtered by halaster's tank buster. Wasted stamina on at wills? Tank buster takes you down. Low-end tanks have less hp, stamina regen, Ap gain and possibly longer cooldowns, that's resource management. You don't need darks in your utility slots, in fact insignias can give more to your forte than darks overall. As mentioned, I said base amount of divinity regen should be increased, because you shouldn't have to stack a lot to match live. But if a healer feels they're managing well they can substitute regen for something else, like fortitude insignias...
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    masteroga said:

    Arazith: The point of UTILITY slots is to provide UTILITY. If your utility slots are simply providing valuable slats....either change all other utility options so they can compete or remove the problem (much easier to remove the problem).



    Your healing already gets stronger as you gain item level....why make your resource management harder at lower levels? If you dont understand this....dont know what to tell ya

    Did you have a problem with the companion influence that Forte is replacing? What would you suggest in it's place?

    Having more resource regen with Forte does not make the regen worse at lower levels. It adds to it at higher levels. The base Forte amount is enough to bring new players to what they have on live, and as one adds more forte, they gain more regen. In all honestly though , we are talking about a handful of resource per tick, an amount that is hardly worth anything. What does need to happen is for forte to have an actual effect on it instead of the minuscule amount that is on Preview atm.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    > @horus#3657 said:
    > @noworries#8859
    > Barbarian BladeMaster is performing so Bad
    >
    > SW damage is just Nuts
    > TR damage can break Chult Training Dummy
    > HR damage is over the roof with Bugs not fixed till now and this was reported by Players in Bug Section
    >
    > Barbarian Blademaster DPS on ACT Chart Bilethorn DOT's Damage Percentage is 20%
    > So When Bilethorn is adjusted Probably to 40% to be inline with Other Enchants that will significantly lower the Barbarian's DPS
    >
    > Assume my Forte is 60% that means my critical Severity from Forte is 15%
    > Please Re-adjust Consumables because as of Right Now Wildstorm Elixir grants 10% Critical Severity and the Potion from Alchemy Grants 7.3% Critical Severity
    >
    > That means through consumables any class can get a Barbarian BladeMaster's Secondary Forte using Consumables Without Losing on any other Offensive Stats to Get to My Class Caps (Which is unfair)
    >
    > If you don't want to adjust Consumables then please Change the Barbarian's Secondary Forte because as of now it is at very very bad spot

    One of the top barbarians currently has the highest encdps on preview server at the moment. "Worst class in the game." Kek xD wizard would like a word with you. There are ways to min max properly to perfectly cap crit sev on crit sev forte classes (i play an arbiter and have done this). None of the crit sev is wasted.
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 406 Arc User

    > @horus#3657 said:

    > @noworries#8859

    > Barbarian BladeMaster is performing so Bad

    >

    > SW damage is just Nuts

    > TR damage can break Chult Training Dummy

    > HR damage is over the roof with Bugs not fixed till now and this was reported by Players in Bug Section

    >

    > Barbarian Blademaster DPS on ACT Chart Bilethorn DOT's Damage Percentage is 20%

    > So When Bilethorn is adjusted Probably to 40% to be inline with Other Enchants that will significantly lower the Barbarian's DPS

    >

    > Assume my Forte is 60% that means my critical Severity from Forte is 15%

    > Please Re-adjust Consumables because as of Right Now Wildstorm Elixir grants 10% Critical Severity and the Potion from Alchemy Grants 7.3% Critical Severity

    >

    > That means through consumables any class can get a Barbarian BladeMaster's Secondary Forte using Consumables Without Losing on any other Offensive Stats to Get to My Class Caps (Which is unfair)

    >

    > If you don't want to adjust Consumables then please Change the Barbarian's Secondary Forte because as of now it is at very very bad spot



    One of the top barbarians currently has the highest encdps on preview server at the moment. "Worst class in the game." Kek xD wizard would like a word with you. There are ways to min max properly to perfectly cap crit sev on crit sev forte classes (i play an arbiter and have done this). None of the crit sev is wasted.

    I have seen no difficulty in getting the Critical Severity cap on the ranger, and this using Quick Action on the mount bonus, while in my barbarian I have been trying anyway to use it and to no avail.

    https://ibb.co/vqhdgYK
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 212 Arc User
    From my testing forte' may be over rated. A 300 point increase in forte' increases your forte' total% by .3%, which increases your 3 forte' ratings stats by .1% to total%.
    What I would like to know is, does a 3000 point increase add 1% to each of the forte' ratings stat?

    Does this amount of bonus from forte' really make that much difference in the big picture?
  • nabu#4746 nabu Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    @horus#3657 The barbarian is one of the top performing classes on preview right now, this is a problem of user error (meaning, you’re the one that’s not playing the class efficiently)
  • admiralwarlord#3792 admiralwarlord Member Posts: 406 Arc User
    karvare said:

    From my testing forte' may be over rated. A 300 point increase in forte' increases your forte' total% by .3%, which increases your 3 forte' ratings stats by .1% to total%.
    What I would like to know is, does a 3000 point increase add 1% to each of the forte' ratings stat?

    Does this amount of bonus from forte' really make that much difference in the big picture?

    1% = 1000 of any status > 300 Forte = 0,3% (insignia of dominance) > 3000 = 3% = 1500 Power + 750 secondary offensive status + 750 defensive status if u is a DPS.
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