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Official - Combat Changes - Bigger Discussion/ No Delete Thread

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  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,224 Arc User
    I'm not going to debate someone who will not believe what others are seeing with their own eyes, or try and change my point and focus on something else and put words in my mouth. Or try and pigeon hole someone into thinking that it can only be one thing and one thing alone.
  • masterogamasteroga Member Posts: 346 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Didn't read any comments but...

    Was this redesign done in a bubble away from rest of team? The last 2 artifact neck/waist sets have both features increases in power, and virtually all the gear from the final hunt had GIGANTIC increases of power. Now those increases of power are pointless. It seems like a combat redesign should work with gear that came out 1 month before it....especially when the tier 3 hunt is so expensive

    Celestial Set going to be reworked? Seems like the hardest to obtain set will end up being a poor choice now

    **Potential fix** Leave weapon damage in the game as a multiplier, that will multiply with the TIL/10 number. Then current weapon sets will be the only viable weapon sets
    Post edited by masteroga on
  • supmadbrosupmadbro Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    Clerics have a built in mechanic to get 10% bonus accuracy when full stamina, this wasnt much of an issue on live becasue you could easily get the 90k accuracy cap without it, but on the preview server this 10% bonus accuracy applies directly to the 'other contributions' so they get a free 10% negation to the opponents deflect severity which is a fairly large increase in damage for a class that was already a head by a decent margin. I think it should increase the accuracy rating and not give an increase to the end %. Or it should just be removed.
  • burtrburtr Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    arazith07 said:

    I'm not going to debate someone who will not believe what others are seeing with their own eyes, or try and change my point and focus on something else and put words in my mouth. Or try and pigeon hole someone into thinking that it can only be one thing and one thing alone.

    Actually, I kind of agree with c1k4ml3kc3 assessment.

    I have been playing for a very long time, but I never felt the need to post on the forums or even look/read the forums. Every change was a shot to the gut, but I used to have the same view you do. Now, not so much.

    I remember my ex-Guardian Fighter > Fighter logging in on the first day of mod 16 going live. I had been farming easily in Chult the previous day, so I thought, "can't be that big of a difference, my gear's pretty good anyway". Nope, first group of trash mob that I pulled decided to bend me over and made me their girlfriend before I could even cry "uncle".

    Eventually, yes, I made the necessary changes and built back up. My toons feel like the way they were before mod 16 again. Now.. this thing called change comes calling again. Having started in Open Beta, I have been dealing with changes for a long time. I'm tired of it. "Change" in an MMO, in my opinion, should be "new content", not "totally new game". Make no mistake, this monster may look like Neverwinter, but it's not. It's like a bad sci-fi/horror movie... every year or so, your wife morphs into someone with a totally different personality. She may look the same, talk the same, but now she physically slaps you around and calls you a worthless scumbag every day. I'd be thinking, "this isn't the wife that I married"... just like "this isn't the game that I spent years of farming and sinking thousands of $$$ in to".

    It's not the changes that is upsetting so many people who have invested time and money. It is the change itself that is upsetting. This type of wide-ranging rework is basically a FU to the face of many players who have invested so much.

    If the Devs truly have the players' best interest at heart and they are really willing to listen to our opinions, just look at all the negative posts vs the positive posts.

    As for me and my friends, we are in a "wait and see" mode right now. There's no use in farming or upgrading anything, since they will be near useless with these changes. There's no spending AD or buying zen, since some of the items will be practically useless anyway. There's no planning for the changes, since it may be totally different when it hits live or not long after. Announcing these drastic changes is basically holding a whole group of players as hostages. The only thing we've found to do now is run influence in the Stronghold. Everything just seems like a waste of time now.

    I'm tired of sinking time and money into a game with the thought that it's going to be meaningless within a year or 2 anyway.

    You want to make good changes? Come up with new content for players to run and fix the old problems before making new problems.

    My friends and I are actually just waiting to see IF (not HOW) these changes will come to live. If they do, we're done with this game. We will take our time and money elsewhere.

    Thanks for the sometimes great 7.5 years of Neverwinter.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User

    The main issue is that these changes should be smaller, easier to digest, without a complete rework that breaks what we had.
    (...)
    It is a horrible business model, scam basically.

    All at once is better in my opinion. It is scam, yes. But if I get all at once they waste less of my time, because it is just game over. sad. But it is what it is.
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    I would like to adress a situation regarding the new changes that came with the new combat and companion systems overhaul.
    It is about Racial Abilities and how those will impact our gameplay experience. Since the beginning choosing your race was more about meta than the apppearance in my opinion,
    at least for most of us who discovered the game, played it and found that some of those Racial Abilities could make a difference in endgame even if it wasn t big. We had to
    sacrifice appearance for that. Same thing will happen after overhaul. My proposal here is to remove this boundry and give to us the opportunity to choose any race we want in
    terms of appearance without having to go with a particular Racial Ability. Make those Racial Abilityes a Hero Abilityes and let us choose with one fits our needs better.
    Make premium races to unlock special Hero Abilityes to maintain their value. The main problem that determined me to write this is because I have paid for 3 races to unlock.
    First to for their bonuses and the last one just because those first two didn t allowed me to customize my toon in terms of appearance. And I am talking about dragonborns.
    I have paid ultimately for Aasimar without having a proper ideea about what I will get in term of appearance but as long as I could wear hats and have also a decent bonus
    I convinced myself that it will worth the bucks. After overhaul I found that my Aasimar damage bonus got converted into power bonus. The thing is now I am overcaped on power
    and the Racial Ability became meaningless. However I found that Gith and Wood Elf got improved Racial Abilityes and those are quite decent in terms of benefits. The sad thing
    is that the appearance doesn t suit my barbarian well and I don t want to be a Gith or Wood Elf just because I need their Racial Abilityes.
    The proposed ideea will add variety in terms of appearance with game lacks right now in my opinion and will allow players to choose their desired starter bonus.

    Thank you!
    Platinum

    @noworries#8859 A response will be much appreciated!
  • vastano#2343 vastano Member Posts: 169 Arc User
    burtr said:

    arazith07 said:

    I'm not going to debate someone who will not believe what others are seeing with their own eyes, or try and change my point and focus on something else and put words in my mouth. Or try and pigeon hole someone into thinking that it can only be one thing and one thing alone.

    Actually, I kind of agree with c1k4ml3kc3 assessment.

    I have been playing for a very long time, but I never felt the need to post on the forums or even look/read the forums. Every change was a shot to the gut, but I used to have the same view you do. Now, not so much.

    I remember my ex-Guardian Fighter > Fighter logging in on the first day of mod 16 going live. I had been farming easily in Chult the previous day, so I thought, "can't be that big of a difference, my gear's pretty good anyway". Nope, first group of trash mob that I pulled decided to bend me over and made me their girlfriend before I could even cry "uncle".

    Eventually, yes, I made the necessary changes and built back up. My toons feel like the way they were before mod 16 again. Now.. this thing called change comes calling again. Having started in Open Beta, I have been dealing with changes for a long time. I'm tired of it. "Change" in an MMO, in my opinion, should be "new content", not "totally new game". Make no mistake, this monster may look like Neverwinter, but it's not. It's like a bad sci-fi/horror movie... every year or so, your wife morphs into someone with a totally different personality. She may look the same, talk the same, but now she physically slaps you around and calls you a worthless scumbag every day. I'd be thinking, "this isn't the wife that I married"... just like "this isn't the game that I spent years of farming and sinking thousands of $$$ in to".

    It's not the changes that is upsetting so many people who have invested time and money. It is the change itself that is upsetting. This type of wide-ranging rework is basically a FU to the face of many players who have invested so much.

    If the Devs truly have the players' best interest at heart and they are really willing to listen to our opinions, just look at all the negative posts vs the positive posts.

    As for me and my friends, we are in a "wait and see" mode right now. There's no use in farming or upgrading anything, since they will be near useless with these changes. There's no spending AD or buying zen, since some of the items will be practically useless anyway. There's no planning for the changes, since it may be totally different when it hits live or not long after. Announcing these drastic changes is basically holding a whole group of players as hostages. The only thing we've found to do now is run influence in the Stronghold. Everything just seems like a waste of time now.

    I'm tired of sinking time and money into a game with the thought that it's going to be meaningless within a year or 2 anyway.

    You want to make good changes? Come up with new content for players to run and fix the old problems before making new problems.

    My friends and I are actually just waiting to see IF (not HOW) these changes will come to live. If they do, we're done with this game. We will take our time and money elsewhere.

    Thanks for the sometimes great 7.5 years of Neverwinter.
    i heard of this game while it was in beta didnt come over then because i really really hate pvp and everything i heard was it was mainly pvp
    finally thought i would give it a try and now been playing for a year and a half now and sunk millions of ad and lots of £ on zen and got my rw fully set up as not quite endgame but 99% of the way there (mainly because i hate tomm and will hate zuriel master even more though bby zariel is fun)
    but after looking at this update on preview i am absolutly appalled and tbh all i log on for now is to pick up my vip key unless some of my friends want to run something interesting
    i have played many many mmo and d&d games going all the way back to eq in the 90s never have i seen such a fundimental shift in a game (and from what i been told this is the second one)
    a little bit of tweaking yes but cryptic are completely changing the game and this already was one of the most complicated games i have played
    everything i have farmed and saved for is now useless and like many others i really cant be bothered to even try to sort out the mess that is coming so i got 65 days of vip left after that would rather give my money to another game

  • bpstuartbpstuart Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    A group of regular zombies just curbstomped my warlock. I managed to get all my powers off on one and it didn't even do half of its health bar.

    You have made me utterly impotent against even trash mobs. This feels malicious honestly.
    Ego etiam cupo recrari et amari diu post mortem meam
    I too wish to be recreated, and to be loved long after my death.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,224 Arc User
    bpstuart said:

    A group of regular zombies just curbstomped my warlock. I managed to get all my powers off on one and it didn't even do half of its health bar.

    You have made me utterly impotent against even trash mobs. This feels malicious honestly.

    What zone was this? You know they have a thread to report this type of thing right? This is part of why it's on preview, to tune everything into the right difficulty level. They cannot do this if you just say regular zombies without naming a zone.
  • bpstuartbpstuart Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    bpstuart said:

    A group of regular zombies just curbstomped my warlock. I managed to get all my powers off on one and it didn't even do half of its health bar.

    You have made me utterly impotent against even trash mobs. This feels malicious honestly.

    PS: It was in neverdeath.
    Ego etiam cupo recrari et amari diu post mortem meam
    I too wish to be recreated, and to be loved long after my death.
  • eladonwarps#6040 eladonwarps Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    > @bpstuart said:
    > PS: It was in neverdeath.

    I think I've seen other comments on this, but yeah, something is broken with 1-pip Zombie-type Rotters. Dread Ring was reported, you're saying Neverdeath, and I had the same thing in Ebon Downs.

    I'm of the opinion that most enemies now have too much defense/HP, but Zombies are way worse than even that.
    Call me El, she/her only. Currently Professions-only until the next combat change fixes this mess.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,905 Arc User
    @noworries#8859

    Does the new scaling system apply to only dungeons or does it also apply to zones? e.g. Dread Ring, Sharandar etc.

    "Ratings

    The most requested changes from players was to have their stat percentages on their character sheet and to have their ratings not change when scaled. Those two aspects became our main focus and the core of our current changes.

    Rating caps are now based on your Total Item Level. If your Total Item Level is 50,000, then each rating has a cap of 50,000 as well. They are always a 1 to 1 match. When a rating is at the cap it grants 50%. Each 1,000 your rating is below your Total Item Level is a 1% reduction from that Cap.

    If you have 50,000 Total Item Level and have a Defense Rating of 45,000, then you have 45% Defense from ratings.

    If you have 40,000 Total Item Level and have a Defense Rating of 30,000, then you have 40% Defense from ratings.



    These ratings work the same in all content, even when scaled. This means when you’re character sheet says you have 45% Defense, no matter where your character goes, you will have 45% Defense. When scaled, your ratings still work off of your unscaled item level. This was the most requested change to scaling that players have asked for and we developed a system to make the possible throughout the game."
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  • justtester#3228 justtester Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    @armadeonx It already was mentioned a few times there is no scaling in zones like Dread ring and so on.
    This forum is an echo chamber
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @justtester It has been already mentioned a few times that there is no sense of progression in zones like Dread ring and so on.
    =)

    Anyway, your stats are scaled, even if the area is not. If you had 20k rating at your 20k IL, it meant a lot more than when you have 20k rating at 40k IL. That is what is called scaling - the "value" is not absolute.
  • justtester#3228 justtester Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    @justtester It has been already mentioned a few times that there is no sense of progression in zones like Dread ring and so on.

    Even with taking a huge difference in base damage and hp into account?
    rikitaki said:

    Anyway, your stats are scaled, even if the area is not. If you had 20k rating at your 20k IL, it meant a lot more than when you have 20k rating at 40k IL. That is what is called scaling - the "value" is not absolute.

    This is quite original definition of that word tbh. And I don't think the dev team is using it in that mean.
    This forum is an echo chamber
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020


    Even with taking a huge difference in base damage and hp into account?

    Well, just go there and try it. No harm done in confirming your assumption, no?

    edit: On that note, I think you really overestimate the impact of IL. Double of IL in ideal case would mean double HP and double damage, but doubling IL is quite the feat. So, in most cases, you happen to play with differences in numbers that are hard to notice.


    This is quite original definition of that word tbh. And I don't think the dev team is using it in that mean.

    And how would you define scaling any other way than "reached numbers have no absolute value"? (I mean - this is the core of scaling, while methods of how to reach it might vary.)
    And I do not know which means devs use for what purposes, but it is what they did.
  • justtester#3228 justtester Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    edit: On that note, I think you really overestimate the impact of IL. Double of IL in ideal case would mean double HP and double damage, but doubling IL is quite the feat.

    The thing is most of items giving IL are also giving combined rating and both numbers are pretty close. I don't think it's actually possible to double characters IL and leave his stats at numbers in same time. Plus I noticed there are ways to increase your stats without increasing of your IL (and no, I'm not talking about temporary things like potions and so on).
    rikitaki said:

    And how would you define scaling

    For me personally scaling (in mmo games) has always referred to mode when your stats has been increased or lowered depending where you are currently. So stats what you see now aren't your "real" stats.

    This forum is an echo chamber
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User


    For me personally scaling (in mmo games) has always referred to mode when your stats has been increased or lowered depending where you are currently. So stats what you see now aren't your "real" stats.

    And here is the effective value of stats dependent on how much IL you have. The effective value is scaled to IL.

    Once again to Dread Ring and similar - I think they are mostly set too difficult for target IL. Saying to a fresh lvl 70 player that once you are fully set for Zarial challenge the difficulty of Dread Ring would be OK... is unrealistic. So I think there is still a lot of tuning to be done.
    But the system, while it "pretends" to be robust, mostly does one thing: fits everyone into the same category. In this system the experience of two players would be much closer to each other. It used to be in double digits multiples, but that will be mostly gone. You will no longer have a choice to alter your experience too much by gearing up/removing items.
    Is it improvement? Yes and no. No outliers, however, it sets the whole game to "one size to fit them all" - and that proved to be a terrible idea.
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 557 Arc User
    Live:
    https://i.imgur.com/aOs9Vq7.png


    This is a direct transfer to Preview, minus Guild buffs, but with all Boons.
    https://i.imgur.com/wwv59bU.png


    This is after everything was fully upgraded as much as it was possible, right off the bat, with 25 Mythic pets, all possible enchantments and getting the max CA.
    https://i.imgur.com/IjASGIG.png


    @c1k4ml3kc3, I don't think your data says what you think it says. If anything, it absolutely and completely supports the argument that @arazith07 and others have been making.

    I think where people get panicked is when they initially see the damage floaters on preview. I know I did, and I thought, "Oh no! They've completely broken this game!" (Xuna's damage was a complete shocker) Once I caught my breath, however, and got a feel for how LONG it took to kill mobs, it turned out to be, by and large fairly comparable.

    On live (hypothetical example), I could hit a critter for 100,000 damage and take away a quarter of it's health bar; on preview, you might be able to only hit that critter for 1,000 damage, but if that 1,000 damage still takes away a quarter of it's health bar, from a functional, game play perspective, what difference does it make outside of the psychological satisfaction of seeing really large floating numbers?

    The third ACT graph really shows just how effective this new combat system can be when you compare it to the second graph; if you max everything out, you can essentially (easily) triple your effective damage. That is *exactly* what the data shows--you've proven it. You can't deny it.

    And here's the thing: With this new combat system there are so many different ways to increase your effective damage; it is up to you to pick and choose how you would like to increase that effective damage.

    This new system is an absolute meta-buster because there is no longer one single way to max your damage.

    What those of us who aren't dismissive of the new combat system (it still needs some tweaking) realize is that this isn't something that can be done with the current combat system. To achieve similar types of damage increments under the old "power-based" system would require power to go into the millions (literally) to achieve the same type(s) of results due to the harsh diminishing returns from adding power.

    Some people are losing sleep over what they perceive they *can't* do under the new combat system and fear their time, effort, and money have been a waste, but I'm actually losing sleep because of all that we *can* do with this new system. I will be drifting off to sleep and a new idea will pop into my head so I crawl out of bed and hop on preview to try it out. Items, enchants, companions, insignia bonuses, you name it that once had no relevance in the game are suddenly really, really cool and can be used in very imaginative ways.

    I'm not saying that this combat system is "perfect", but I am absolutely giddy about it. I'm a long time player, and as far as I am concerned, this new combat system is far and away the best combat system this game has ever had.


  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    rubytrue said:


    And here's the thing: With this new combat system there are so many different ways to increase your effective damage; it is up to you to pick and choose how you would like to increase that effective damage.

    While I understand your optimism, here I completely disagree: it is not up to you how you would like to increase your effective damage, it is mostly up to forte which was assigned to your class. Trying to disobey this aspect does not lead to good results.

    And one more thing: why I do not like what is about to happen is that my enchants, runestones, insignias and companions will be mostly useless under the new system. And out of all that, according to the latest development, I might be able to exchange only runestones.

  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 557 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    rikitaki said:

    rubytrue said:


    And here's the thing: With this new combat system there are so many different ways to increase your effective damage; it is up to you to pick and choose how you would like to increase that effective damage.

    While I understand your optimism, here I completely disagree: it is not up to you how you would like to increase your effective damage, it is mostly up to forte which was assigned to your class. Trying to disobey this aspect does not lead to good results.

    And one more thing: why I do not like what is about to happen is that my enchants, runestones, insignias and companions will be mostly useless under the new system. And out of all that, according to the latest development, I might be able to exchange only runestones.

    Unless your Power, Accuracy, Combat Advantage, Crit, and Crit Severity are all sitting at the 90% max cap, then you are simply flat out wrong when you say, "it is not up to you how you would like to increase your effective damage."

    It's that simple.

    The new combat system is *fundamentally* designed so that you *can't* cap all five of those offensive stats (and if perchance you are able to do that, your defensive stats would be so low that a simple critter HAMSTER would kill you--but that is a *choice* you can now make in the game that you couldn't before) so you *always* have choices in how you want to increase your damage or play your character.

    Let me give you an example of how this new combat system opens up not only game play opportunities, but role playing opportunities as well. On live, I play a Gith Vangaurd Tank. On live, a Gith Vanguard Tank, for all intents and purposes, is exactly the same as a Dragonborn Vanguard Tank, or a Dwarven Vanguard Tank, or a Human Vanguard Tank, or any other tank for that matter regardless of race or class. It seems kind of stupid when I look at *my* tank, a skinny gith that runs around in a bikini with a flower shield would fight exactly the same way that a big, brutish dragonborn character that is outfitted in heavy plate armor gear--but that is the way the current game plays.

    On preview, however, I can play my tank in a completely different playstyle with completely different stat distributions--and still be just as, if not more effective than a traditional tank build. On preview, my tank has what would be considered *really* low HP (most DPS on preview have more HP than my tank), but I'm still a *really* effective tank because I've chosen other stats to focus on that are way outside the thinking on the current live meta. In my mind, Gith are a race of creatures from another plane (or planet--Stardock anyone?) that happen to be fantastic warriors and magic users. Chances are, if you are able to travel between planes and planets, you *might* have the ability to warp time and space and can use that ability to your advantage rather relying on brute HP (yeah, some of the items in the game that *no-one* on live are using suddenly becomes really, really cool in the new system). My bikini clad, flower child, gith tank that can warp time and space doesn't need a ton of HP because she doesn't get hit in the first place and she is using enchants that are slowing down her enemies Neo-style in the Matrix. This ability to warp time and space also means she's a pretty mean offensive fighter as well, and for a tank, she does a ton of damage--and she doesn't need to cap power to do that since, as someone that can warp time and space, her focus is on hitting in the right spot (accuracy), in the right position (combat advantage), doing critical damage (crit). It is *really* cool what is possible in this new system. There are so many items, companions, insignia bonuses, etc that aren't currently being used that suddenly have relevance now. This combat system has been in the works for over a year now, and things that have been in the game for a long time, but seemed stupid when they first came out now make a lot of sense in this new system. I'm having a blast just going through the collections and re-reading everything to see what I can use in a new unpredictable way.

    I know someone that plays a Dwarven Tank, and guess what, he built his tank exactly like you would imagine a Dwarven tank would be built. That tank is built like a freaking boulder. He can kind of just sit there and go, "Hit me." You can pound on him, but it isn't going to do you or him a whole lot of good. And that is exactly how I would image a Dwarven Tank would be.

    That is the beauty of this new system: You can be a hefty, hairy, short-tempered boulder or you can be a time-warping, bikini-wearing, alien flower child with almost diametrically opposed stats and playstyles but still be equally effective in your role as a tank.
    Post edited by rubytrue on
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    rubytrue said:

    rikitaki said:

    rubytrue said:


    And here's the thing: With this new combat system there are so many different ways to increase your effective damage; it is up to you to pick and choose how you would like to increase that effective damage.

    While I understand your optimism, here I completely disagree: it is not up to you how you would like to increase your effective damage, it is mostly up to forte which was assigned to your class. Trying to disobey this aspect does not lead to good results.
    Unless your Power, Accuracy, Combat Advantage, Crit, and Crit Severity are all sitting at the 90% max cap, then you are simply flat out wrong when you say, "it is not up to you how you would like to increase your effective damage."

    It's that simple.
    Quite the opposite - unless you are already capped on the forte stats, it is inefficient to push the other stats intentionally higher.
    edit: Do you know you described an occasion on which there is no way how to increase your damage (except higher IL)?
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 557 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    rikitaki said:

    rubytrue said:

    rikitaki said:

    rubytrue said:


    And here's the thing: With this new combat system there are so many different ways to increase your effective damage; it is up to you to pick and choose how you would like to increase that effective damage.

    While I understand your optimism, here I completely disagree: it is not up to you how you would like to increase your effective damage, it is mostly up to forte which was assigned to your class. Trying to disobey this aspect does not lead to good results.
    Unless your Power, Accuracy, Combat Advantage, Crit, and Crit Severity are all sitting at the 90% max cap, then you are simply flat out wrong when you say, "it is not up to you how you would like to increase your effective damage."

    It's that simple.
    Quite the opposite - unless you are already capped on the forte stats, it is inefficient to push the other stats intentionally higher.
    edit: Do you know you described an occasion on which there is no way how to increase your damage (except higher IL)?
    You conveniently left out the very next paragraph, didn't you?

    The new combat system is *fundamentally* designed so that you *can't* cap all five of those offensive stats (and if perchance you are able to do that, your defensive stats would be so low that a simple critter HAMSTER would kill you--but that is a *choice* you can now make in the game that you couldn't before) so you *always* have choices in how you want to increase your damage or play your character.

    You simply don't get it.

    You need to quit thinking about power in the way we've been used to thinking about power. Power, Accuracy, Combat Advantage, Crit Strike, and Crit Severity are all essentially the same thing now: they are all damage modifiers and the damage they modify is the base damage that comes from your item level. What they modify is *how* you do damage. One is not necessarily or inherently better than the other (though crit severity w/o high crit strike is kind of a waste). The old hierarchy is gone.

    That is what you don't seem to understand.

    Your Forte will tend to either nudge you in a certain direction in how you choose to do damage (the stats you prioritize), or you can choose to use Forte to fill in some of the gaps if you choose a different playing style. It is literally your *choice*.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,905 Arc User
    @justtester#3228 @rikitaki

    The reason I'm bringing it up is because @noworries#8859 said to me in a reply on a different thread that zones do not scale enemies OR players but players are noting that in areas like Dread Ring enemies are harder to kill and players take much more damage.

    Whatever the correct TERM is, it appears that players stats are being adjusted to make these zones harder for geared players and I totally do not see the sense in making all of the old zones as difficult as the new content. The net affect of this would be to reduce the desire for higher IL players to go there for small rewards (e.g. the 4k AD weeklies).
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  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    @rubytrue
    rubytrue said:


    The new combat system is *fundamentally* designed so that you *can't* cap all five of those offensive stats (and if perchance you are able to do that, your defensive stats would be so low that a simple critter HAMSTER would kill you--but that is a *choice* you can now make in the game that you couldn't before) so you *always* have choices in how you want to increase your damage or play your character.

    Well, as your text growth, you mentioned more and more contradictory and incoherent things, so I did not want to jump in on every aspect that you kind of took from a single point of view.
    But generally, if you highlight, that you CANNOT do as much as in the previous system, and then you specifically mention that it means you CAN do much more, something is amiss.
    And no, you cannot choose to go too much offensive or defensive... because there are not many tools to do so. Enchants, insignia and runestones lost a lot of their importance. Most of your stats are given to you in an assorted way. The only significant difference you can specifically select are companions - and that is a place where people with green slime are getting a lot ahead. Technically, people with "weird, rare" companions in previous mods have impressive head start because the BIS companions of this rework are generally not that easy to obtain. (and vice versa - the companions that were bis are made totally useless for that role)

    and btw: that defence got 4,5x boost in effectiveness is in my eyes a blunder, not "awesome" feature
  • justtester#3228 justtester Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    Whatever the correct TERM is, it appears that players stats are being adjusted to make these zones harder for geared players and I totally do not see the sense in making all of the old zones as difficult as the new content. The net affect of this would be to reduce the desire for higher IL players to go there for small rewards (e.g. the 4k AD weeklies).

    I don't see any sense in that either and I highly doubt they would do that (intentionally). In their blogpost it was clearly stated the difficulty should be same for every character after the update.

    I guess there is just too many things went off, after all they changed everything (enemies stats, your stats, magnitudes on your powers, even some feats and class features effects) plus augments are giving much less stats they're supposed and so on. If you've seen mod16 on Preview and during first weeks after release (on PC) then you should remember there was 100% stuff — half of people saying everything is too hard, even weekly lairs are impossible to complete while other half are completing them without problems even on pretty undergeared characters, overpowered zombies, unkillable enemies in Maze Engine quests, unkillable mimics in various low tier campaigns quests and so on.
    This forum is an echo chamber
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    @justtester "augments are giving much less stats they're supposed"
    Given the IL of companions it is the opposite - active companions give much more stats then they should. (just in case the system is really supposed to be systematic, the stats/IL ratio should stay the same through the various sources)
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 557 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    rikitaki said:

    @rubytrue

    rubytrue said:


    The new combat system is *fundamentally* designed so that you *can't* cap all five of those offensive stats (and if perchance you are able to do that, your defensive stats would be so low that a simple critter HAMSTER would kill you--but that is a *choice* you can now make in the game that you couldn't before) so you *always* have choices in how you want to increase your damage or play your character.

    Well, as your text growth, you mentioned more and more contradictory and incoherent things, so I did not want to jump in on every aspect that you kind of took from a single point of view.
    But generally, if you highlight, that you CANNOT do as much as in the previous system, and then you specifically mention that it means you CAN do much more, something is amiss.
    And no, you cannot choose to go too much offensive or defensive... because there are not many tools to do so. Enchants, insignia and runestones lost a lot of their importance. Most of your stats are given to you in an assorted way. The only significant difference you can specifically select are companions - and that is a place where people with green slime are getting a lot ahead. Technically, people with "weird, rare" companions in previous mods have impressive head start because the BIS companions of this rework are generally not that easy to obtain. (and vice versa - the companions that were bis are made totally useless for that role)

    and btw: that defence got 4,5x boost in effectiveness is in my eyes a blunder, not "awesome" feature
    Just because you don't understand the new combat system does not mean that I contradicted myself in any of my posts. The fact of the matter is that this is now a *choice* based system, and not a min/max based combat system. That is what people, and you in particular, don't seem to comprehend.

    At its core, the combat system is essentially weapon damage (how much damage can be done) vs hit points (how much damage can be taken)-- (both of these values are determined by your Total Item Level).

    The offensive stats in the game, Power, Accuracy, Combat Advantage, Crit Strike, and Crit severity are all weapon damage modifiers (they all modify how much damage you can do). Since you can no longer cap all of these different weapon damage modifiers, there is no longer a set Min/Max formula that is the absolute "best" combination, especially since some of these weapon damage modifiers are situational (like Combat Advantage) or whose effectiveness is dependent upon another modifier (like Crit Strike and Crit Severity).

    The defensive stats in the game, Defense, Awareness, Crit Avoid, Deflect, and Deflect Severity likewise are, in essence, hit point modifiers (they all modify how much damage you can take),-- along with being able to actually increase your HP-- and like the offensive modifiers, have both situational and dependent stats that must be considered. Just like the offensive stats, you can no longer cap all these different hit point modifiers. You have to *choose* how you "modify" your hit points by choosing which defensive stats you want to make most effective for your particular build. (Side note: Janne Moonmist gives a pretty good explanation of how defensive stats act like effective hit points in her legacy mechanics section on her webpage, and by the looks of it, she will have a new "effective hit point calculator" for this new combat system.)

    To say that Defense got a 4-5x boost is a meaningless statement. So your assessment that it is a "blunder" just shows you don't understand the combat system.

    The effectiveness of Defense can only be understood within the context of the other stats; if you aren't mitigating Combat Advantage via Awareness, Crit Strikes against you via Crit Avoid, or you never Deflect any damage because you didn't invest in that stat, then Defense, in and of itself isn't going to help you a whole lot because the enemy damage multipliers (they all have Power, Crit, Accuracy, and Combat Advantage Ratings as well) will negate that supposed "boost" that defense gave you. If you aren't mitigating those incoming damage modifiers/multipliers, then you really *need* more defense like this new system gives you. If the incoming base damage has a 4x multiplier due crit and combat advantage (2x & 2x), and you aren't mitigating that, then guess what? You need your defense to be 4x as effective.

    You see, it is your *choice* to determine how you want to modify both your weapon damage and your hit points.

    And since you can no longer cap everything, you will also have to choose *how much* you are going to prioritize your offensive vs defensive stats. If you're playing a tank, and you *choose* to invest everything into defensive stats so that you are basically invulnerable by mitigating all different kinds of damage, that is a choice you can make...but guess what? That choice also means you've probably ignored your offensive stats, and as a tank, that means since you won't be doing much, if any, damage yourself so you're not very likely to keep aggro. So while your choices may keep *you* alive in a dungeon, the rest of your team is dead because you couldn't hold aggro.

    This new combat system is *actually* the combat system that players have been asking for since the beginning of the game even if they don't know that yet.

    This is a very elegant combat system that overcomes the perennial problem of power creep (which makes the game really boring) that, at its core, is choice based--just like you would want in a D&D game/universe.

    There are so many other things I've found in my testing so far that blow my mind (yes, control is a thing again), and so many options are now available to us, it is basically a brand new game, and it is far, far better than the vast majority of the player base can imagine.

    People really need to stop worrying about what they can no longer do, and start asking themselves what is it they *can* do in this new combat system.

    It still needs some tweaks, but the more I delve into it and experiment with it, the more impressed I am with the work of this dev team. It has really blown away any expectations I ever had for the game.

    Here is an example of one of those surprises I found in the new combat system:

    There are insignia bonuses and weapon/armor enchant that no one currently uses but have really interesting applications in the new combat system. No one currently (old combat system) uses the Combatant's Maneuver insignia bonus because 1) under the old system, Combat Advantage was always capped (and the bonus it applied was really small relatively speaking), and 2) Control Powers really didn't work.

    Under the new combat system, control bonuses and resistances affect all classes (yes, even tanks); also, under the new combat system, since you can't cap all your stats, that usually means that Combat Advantage isn't capped. What is really interesting is that you can now equip a non-damaging, but control oriented enchant (frost weapon enchant or frostburn armor enchant, for example), and it will not only affect mobs (and the effect being modified by your control bonus), but it will also proc the Combatants Maneuver insignia bonus, which given the new combat system is a significant increase in the amount of combat advantage you can do (for a 50K item level character, for example, the +2500 combat advantage bonus translates into a +5% combat advantage damage increase).

    But that isn't all, Control Bonus really is a thing again in the new combat system. When I was testing this on preview, I was testing it out on mobs and bosses that are currently unaffected by control effects under the current combat system. This means effects like slows and recharge reductions now become new mechanisms for damage mitigation/damage reduction (you're taking less damage if a mob can't attack as often).

    So when I said in an earlier post that my tank plays like a "time-warping, bikini-wearing, alien flower child", this just isn't some imaginary role playing experience that is only happening in my imagination; I turn off the visuals for the frost and frost burn enchants, and the game is literally playing like I am warping time for the enemies I'm engaged with because of the slow and recharge effects.
    Post edited by rubytrue on
  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 559 Arc User
    How are weapon and armor enchantments and those companion' bonuses which reIated to weapon damage % gonna work if weapon no Ionger has weapon damage?
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