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the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User

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  • cracklepants#2252 cracklepants Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    Wow, that would put the torch to the pyre. I was starting to get encouraged with all the activity around IC, this would be a great way to completely nuke player trust. If they had some way to link item Zen prices to the AH, that would be a better solution for their cash bleed. The AH is the true indicator of item value in the game. As AH item value goes up or down, Zen price follows as well. Not perfect, but better than the crazy ideas in the lead post.
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    The post was writen by me and those were my initial insights. I do agree with your pov and it won`t be a bad ideea if they will take it in cosideration. But we must agree on the point where ZAX became a bad business behavior. My ideea don`t promote any pay to win path. I have personally lost my incentive in doing any dungeons/content just because I can afford to exchange a large amount af AD into ZEN, buy items from Zen Market and sell them in AH with at least double the price. The inflation of backlog won`t stop and probably will be slightly reduced if they raise the ratio with is not a player friendly feature. Some research needs to be done to see statisticaly what is the right path to follow. Of course I am not an expert do develop this ideea further more to fit into our actual system but I can see it working for both Company and us. And in combination with what you have mentioned above regarding auction house post caps I think it has some potential for a better synergy and economical balance. I want to be able to get my ZEN for important things like VIP features or limited mounts without having to wait 2/3 months because more than 80% of players including me, have imense orders just to play ZAX and win AD. We need to stop this greedy behaviour and give everyone the chance to get their items/vip at a fair price.
  • tripsofthrymrtripsofthrymr Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,624 Community Moderator
    The ZAX issue is fundamentally the glut of AD. There are a variety of reasons for that going back deep into the history of the game.

    Fundamentally, AD must be removed from the game for it's true value to dip below the artificial cap in the ZAX. Based on casual observation, a key driver would have to be things with an expensive AD price tag that the most AD-wealthy players feel good about spending AD on yet don't significantly alter game balance, as well as more modestly-priced items for active, "middle-class" players. That's a difficult nut to crack.

    The above represents the demand side of the economy.

    Theoretically, one can also alter the supply side: Reduce AD rewards. That seems unworkable since it would take a very long time for enough AD to drain out of the economy to make a difference, and it would increase the wealth gap between old players and new.

    It's an interesting perspective to alter exactly what you get in exchange for AD. It is thinking outside the box to be sure.
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  • magneticmoosemagneticmoose Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    If items bought through the Zen Market with real cash Zen were unbound until equipt, then this might not be that bad. It would allow people to buy Zen Stuff and turn around and sell it at auction for AD. This would cause people to pull their ZAX amounts so that they can then buy items through the Auction House instead. Though I can totally see how this can be abused, with the price of tradable bonding stones being so high, this might flood the ZAX to the breaking point.

    If this system of Zen and X-Zen goes through, it will be interesting to see how it works.

    EDITED ADDITION BELOW

    Hopefully if the point behind this is to create more uses for AD, then I hope they can pad the AD Store with stuff. Appearance items, power-up consumables, and items like that. Right now there isn't a massive reason for most people to look at the AD Store, is there?
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    I actually like the idea of two Zen shops - "pure" Zen, bought by money - that would give unbound stuff; and x-Zen, the one that went through ZAX - that would give stuff bound to account.

    That would actually fix all those resellers that use ZAX to make more Zen/AD. It does not solve the problem what can you actually buy for each currency, but it really fixes those using ZAX to make profit.
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Member Posts: 612 Arc User
    Fixing it so that the resellers are out of business means that that the auction house prices for essential items, like wards, will sky rocket. People will be forced to buy with zen instead and even more people will be screaming "Pay to Win".
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    Not if they will put a cap price in Auction House. EX: You can`t sell a stack of 99 pres wards for more than 1m AD on the market so people who buys ZEN with real currency will have to either sell a stack of preservation wards for max of 1m AD in AH, having to wait for a max of 25% more AD, or exchange the ZEN for X-ZEN and get the 750k instantly via Exchange System.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    I do not think the sky rocket thing would be a long term issue. If resellers are rare, it will not affect market. If there are no other people in ZAX than resellers, ZAX will lose the backlog and you will be able to get Zen in a reasonable amount of time. For anything in between will happen anything between. Even without mandatory intervention.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 340 Arc User
    kharkov58 said:

    Fixing it so that the resellers are out of business means that that the auction house prices for essential items, like wards, will sky rocket. People will be forced to buy with zen instead and even more people will be screaming "Pay to Win".

    No it doesn't. It means that people will buy what they need. You can then exchange to get the wards bound to you that you will use since the line is clogged currently by players who are buying more zen to sell and it removes them from that exchange.
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  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,118 Arc User
    A much better solution without harming free to play players, is to put the most reselled items in the AH for AD. The prize should be equivalent to a 750:1 ratio, for example: 100 preservation wards: 750K AD.

    Zen should be for QoL items like VIP, bank slots, bags, etc.

    And raising the ZAX max again, is a bad idea for new players, forcing them to pay a lot to catch up, because the prizes will raise again.
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  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,822 Arc User
    edited November 2020

    A much better solution without harming free to play players, is to put the most reselled items in the AH for AD. The prize should be equivalent to a 750:1 ratio, for example: 100 preservation wards: 750K AD.

    Zen should be for QoL items like VIP, bank slots, bags, etc.

    It will not happen. Nobody will pay money to buy Zen to buy the cash cow - wards directly or indirectly. The Qol items you mentioned are mostly one time deal except VIP. Some. you cannot even buy more once you hit the cap such as shared bank slot. They want something that is being purchased very often by everyone.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 969 Arc User



    Lets be honest, ZAX system work only if there are free ZEN in game.

    Prior VIP system implementation, ZEN where optional currency. You could buy mounts, companions, refine realated stuffs and enchanted keys.
    Now x10 encahnted keys costed and still do cost about same as 1 month VIP. And from that one month VIP you gain 30 keys.

    Also enough look to enchanted keys prior VIP system and current ones.
    There where less items in lockboxes. Also certain mounts could be obtained only via specific lockbox.
    And RNG where way lesser that what we have now.

    Once VIP got introduced, game got overflood with enchanted keys, which lead RNG increase in lockboxes. Which punish casual players, and in same moment DEMAND you to get more keys just to get anything worth from lockbox.

    Also with VIP the other ZEN store stuffs become irrlevant. If we exclude WIngs from zen store, what other mounts or companions players buy? I dount anyone would buy from zen store companions at all.
    AH is full of them and it's way cheaper than buy with zen.



    Now there is solution how fix it. The classic way how other publishers where doing for years.

    They where and still do sell VIP/premium services via their websites for real money.
    Also, it allow them to controll what extra element they want include.

    As example lets take winter event.
    ViP + Winter exclusive mount/companion, or exclusive transmutes with effects or whatever other cosmetic stuff.

    Also here is example how in other way can such system be use.
    Here is image which I received in my email from my previous playe game.


    The company offering discount for me<, if I would return back to game. And this is just one of example, I knew some of players in that game had even exclusive skins or exclusing titles.


    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User



    Lets be honest, ZAX system work only if there are free ZEN in game.

    Prior VIP system implementation, ZEN where optional currency. You could buy mounts, companions, refine realated stuffs and enchanted keys.
    Now x10 encahnted keys costed and still do cost about same as 1 month VIP. And from that one month VIP you gain 30 keys.

    Also enough look to enchanted keys prior VIP system and current ones.
    There where less items in lockboxes. Also certain mounts could be obtained only via specific lockbox.
    And RNG where way lesser that what we have now.

    Once VIP got introduced, game got overflood with enchanted keys, which lead RNG increase in lockboxes. Which punish casual players, and in same moment DEMAND you to get more keys just to get anything worth from lockbox.

    Also with VIP the other ZEN store stuffs become irrlevant. If we exclude WIngs from zen store, what other mounts or companions players buy? I dount anyone would buy from zen store companions at all.
    AH is full of them and it's way cheaper than buy with zen.



    Now there is solution how fix it. The classic way how other publishers where doing for years.

    They where and still do sell VIP/premium services via their websites for real money.
    Also, it allow them to controll what extra element they want include.

    As example lets take winter event.
    ViP + Winter exclusive mount/companion, or exclusive transmutes with effects or whatever other cosmetic stuff.

    Also here is example how in other way can such system be use.
    Here is image which I received in my email from my previous playe game.


    The company offering discount for me<, if I would return back to game. And this is just one of example, I knew some of players in that game had even exclusive skins or exclusing titles.


    </p>
    The only reason I am using VIP is for benefits, not for keys. Keys are a bonus. And ZAX is not overflowed by people who try to buy VIP but by the people who exchange their AD for ZEN and use ZEN to get items from ZEN Market and then sell them back in Auction for triple amount of AD. If they will ever but VIP for real currency directly, the game will become Pay to Win. ZAX is the most important system in the game and if the ZAX will crash, the game will die. You may not understand how the ZAX works for rich people, but I ensure you the backlog is not from those people who wants to buy their 1/3/6 months VIP. Also there is no free ZEN in game. Someone has to pay for that zen and exchange it through ZAX so we can get it for "FREE", where the free terms means for you to not have to pay real money for it. For me ZEN cost time or real money in this game. And I choose to use my time to get it because it gives me a purpose to play the game. I could pay and get everything at once and then delete the game.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,822 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    As mentioned above, the major contribution to the backlog is the infinite purchase loop.

    m AD -> Zax -> n Zen -> Zen store item -> AH -> (m * (100 + x%) AD -> Zax -> n * (100 * x%) Zen -> Zen store item -> AH -> (m * (100 + x%) * (100 + xx%) AD -> Zax -> ........

    It is an infinite loop. The more people doing this infinite loop, the longer the backlog.
    The longer (but not extremely lone but long enough to make people to buy the overprice item from AH) the backlog, the more AD this infinite loop can generate.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 969 Arc User



    The only reason I am using VIP is for benefits, not for keys. Keys are a bonus. And ZAX is not overflowed by people who try to buy VIP but by the people who exchange their AD for ZEN and use ZEN to get items from ZEN Market and then sell them back in Auction for triple amount of AD. If they will ever but VIP for real currency directly, the game will become Pay to Win. ZAX is the most important system in the game and if the ZAX will crash, the game will die. You may not understand how the ZAX works for rich people, but I ensure you the backlog is not from those people who wants to buy their 1/3/6 months VIP. Also there is no free ZEN in game. Someone has to pay for that zen and exchange it through ZAX so we can get it for "FREE", where the free terms means for you to not have to pay real money for it. For me ZEN cost time or real money in this game. And I choose to use my time to get it because it gives me a purpose to play the game. I could pay and get everything at once and then delete the game.



    There where and still are games who's have ZAX like system, there are who's don't have it. And games still healthy and active.
    So ZAX system is not main thing in this game.


    Also my suggestion that buy VIP/Premium services via website with real money is not new thing. This this methodology is being used for long time. One of my previously played game whom I started to play in 2005 had such system. And game is still operational. Also same stuffs are used not only in mmorpg but in mmo in general.

    Now as your claim.
    If they will ever but VIP for real currency directly, the game will become Pay to Win.

    Well question for you, how's ZEN even get in ZAX system at all?

    Someone spend real money for ZEN and then throw in ZAX. Also there are players who buy VIP with money. I mean they buy ZEN and gained ZEN spend for VIP and nothng else.

    Also, ask yourself how many players do you think actually made ZEN via ZAX and how many actually spend real money for it.
    IF you think bigger portion of playerbase make ZEN via ZAX then you are naive.
    The game is just business, and it is about making money, if game would not make profit then it would not be operational (would be closed).

    Now have you ever try ask question what is best way to spend zen? Most common answer is to buy VIP and don't waste on anything else.

    The reason is that, it gives keys daily, also if you have ranked up you get discount in wondrous bazaar.
    If by opening lockbox you get lucky, you may get valuable item which you may sell in AH and make decent profit from it.
    If happens you where not lucky, well you go in safe road, which is buy refine realted stuffs from wondrous bazaar and sell in AH.

    As example > buy mark of potency rank 6 from wondrous bazaar. For non VIP it will cost 75k ad, for VIP with 25% discount will cost only 50k.
    Then list it in AH for like 73k, and you more less assured that no NonVIP player would try undercut you, also you secure that non VIP payers would buy from AH and not from wondrous bazaar.
    And since game is very highly focused on refining items, so demands of them will never ends..


    This is one of legal way to make profit, but now remember that are players who made AD with non legit ways.
    Not all who exploited Barovia Hunts where banend, also there are who abused private Stornghold PVP for gaining refine stones( prior mod 15). And also made nice profit, there are who's exploited dungeons flaws, gained items and sold in AH, there are who exploited other game content flaws and also made profit.



    The VIP got introduced in Fri 07 Aug 2015
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9492533-neverwinter%253A-introducing-the-vip-program%2521

    Before that, we played without VIP and to be fair, it was easier to get zen form ZAX. I mean each time I got discount zen store discount, and if I apply in ZAX in hours I would had convertion completed, or if bad at least in days.

    Now you wait 6 months and in the end no convertion. Simply there are too little ZEN in whole system.

    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,822 Arc User
    edited December 2020


    The VIP got introduced in Fri 07 Aug 2015
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9492533-neverwinter%253A-introducing-the-vip-program%2521

    Before that, we played without VIP and to be fair, it was easier to get zen form ZAX. I mean each time I got discount zen store discount, and if I apply in ZAX in hours I would had convertion completed, or if bad at least in days.

    Now you wait 6 months and in the end no convertion. Simply there are too little ZEN in whole system.

    If you are talking about PC, that was not exactly true. It was easier only because of mod 6. A lot of players left (with their massive amount of AD be sink, not playing means those AD is not circulated). Before that, the wait time was 6 months. After that, Zax actually was below 500:1 cap for a month or months. There was less AD. The daily per character AD refinement cap was much lower. Less people did multiple characters back then. It was tough to kill anything. It was tough to finish any dungeon without some kind of cheating. Zax was fast because of short supply of AD.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 969 Arc User
    edited December 2020


    If you are talking about PC, that was not exactly true. It was easier only because of mod 6. A lot of players left (with their massive amount of AD be sink, not playing means those AD is not circulated). Before that, the wait time was 6 months. After that, Zax actually was below 500:1 cap for a month or months. There was less AD. The daily per character AD refinement cap was much lower. Less people did multiple characters back then. It was tough to kill anything. It was tough to finish any dungeon without some kind of cheating. Zax was fast because of short supply of AD.


    Thats true AD refine cap where way lesser, 20k to precise. Other thing remember that times where way too different, I mean players didn't simply buy/sell stuffs in AH. It was also active trading times. I want x item and you have it. So we have bargain, to what I can give you in exchange you would give me your item.

    As for players did less alts, thats what you assuming. Have you forgot that from invoke you gained not only exp but also Coffer of Celestial Enchantments.
    And players not only did multiple atls, but also since mod 6 started boting era. Did you forgot lines of bots running in Reclamation Rock?

    Also bots used to farm enchantments rank 5? And reason cuz we had way different refining and upgrading system, and get refine points where way harder than how we getting now.

    Also reason why there where less AD in mod 6 is that, with mod 6 not that players left cuz devs removed old ( original) neverwinter dungeons, but also that life steal got nerfed, stat formula changed and class: Paladin got introduced.

    Players prior mod 6 relayed on sets like Fabled Iliyanbruen or as example for warlock T2 set where
    Accursed Diabolist
    2 Piece Bonus: +450 Recovery
    4 Piece Bonus: Your encounter powers trigger Hellfire on foes. Hellfire last 6 seconds, and when it expires they take 3% of their Max HP in damage (Max 2000 Max).
    Notes: Each tick of encounter powers (Dreadtheft and Blades of Vanquished Armies for example), produce a stack of Hellfire. Hellfire can stack up to 50 times. This will be a major source of your damage.


    But with mod 6 release and life steal nerf, it was too harsh to relay on these sets, they where OK in boss fights, but in dungeon runs you where killed easily. So players had to rebuild their toons, which costed lot of AD.

    Also have you forgot the old refinament and upgrading system? The different catalistts required for upgrading, and even that for upgrading like radiant enchantent rank 7 to rank 8 costed not only catalists like [Greater Mark of Power] [Greater Mark of Stability] and also x2 or x3 radiant stones of rank 7.

    The times where way different.

    So it was not like game relayed on few players with high AD sums, they left and all broke. But simply lot of AD's where spend to rework characters, and there where little to no spare ones.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,822 Arc User
    edited December 2020


    If you are talking about PC, that was not exactly true. It was easier only because of mod 6. A lot of players left (with their massive amount of AD be sink, not playing means those AD is not circulated). Before that, the wait time was 6 months. After that, Zax actually was below 500:1 cap for a month or months. There was less AD. The daily per character AD refinement cap was much lower. Less people did multiple characters back then. It was tough to kill anything. It was tough to finish any dungeon without some kind of cheating. Zax was fast because of short supply of AD.


    Thats true AD refine cap where way lesser, 20k to precise. Other thing remember that times where way too different, I mean players didn't simply buy/sell stuffs in AH. It was also active trading times. I want x item and you have it. So we have bargain, to what I can give you in exchange you would give me your item.

    As for players did less alts, thats what you assuming. Have you forgot that from invoke you gained not only exp but also Coffer of Celestial Enchantments.
    And players not only did multiple atls, but also since mod 6 started boting era. Did you forgot lines of bots running in Reclamation Rock?

    Also bots used to farm enchantments rank 5? And reason cuz we had way different refining and upgrading system, and get refine points where way harder than how we getting now.

    Also reason why there where less AD in mod 6 is that, with mod 6 not that players left cuz devs removed old ( original) neverwinter dungeons, but also that life steal got nerfed, stat formula changed and class: Paladin got introduced.

    Players prior mod 6 relayed on sets like Fabled Iliyanbruen or as example for warlock T2 set where
    Accursed Diabolist
    2 Piece Bonus: +450 Recovery
    4 Piece Bonus: Your encounter powers trigger Hellfire on foes. Hellfire last 6 seconds, and when it expires they take 3% of their Max HP in damage (Max 2000 Max).
    Notes: Each tick of encounter powers (Dreadtheft and Blades of Vanquished Armies for example), produce a stack of Hellfire. Hellfire can stack up to 50 times. This will be a major source of your damage.


    But with mod 6 release and life steal nerf, it was too harsh to relay on these sets, they where OK in boss fights, but in dungeon runs you where killed easily. So players had to rebuild their toons, which costed lot of AD.

    Also have you forgot the old refinament and upgrading system? The different catalistts required for upgrading, and even that for upgrading like radiant enchantent rank 7 to rank 8 costed not only catalists like [Greater Mark of Power] [Greater Mark of Stability] and also x2 or x3 radiant stones of rank 7.

    The times where way different.

    So it was not like game relayed on few players with high AD sums, they left and all broke. But simply lot of AD's where spend to rework characters, and there where little to no spare ones.
    These do not contradict what I said.
    After mod 6, there was less AD. More AD needed to spend. The demand of AD was much higher. Hence, Zax was better for the AD seller.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 969 Arc User
    edited December 2020


    These do not contradict what I said.
    After mod 6, there was less AD. More AD needed to spend. The demand of AD was much higher. Hence, Zax was better for the AD seller.

    Yes, my comment did not contradict what you said. And it was not intended in that way, I only reminded you what happened with mod 6.

    Also in mod 6 where times when ZEN price even dropped. There where cases that it dropped at 450:1.
    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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