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Mythic Mount update & Golden memories

sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 402 Arc User
edited September 2020 in Player Feedback (PC)
Today at 17:13
Because bolster gives up to 100% stats and that 7.5k armpen/power is the max you can getvwith 100% bolster, by itself the mythic trex will give 3.75k +10%
Today at 17:16
Hp mounts like the triceratops will be getting the largest nerfs. A mythic triceratops will give 30k HP at base +10% bolster.
With 100% bolster it will give 60k hp
Firstly, mount update. This was recently posted in my alliance discord, so lets first thank the devs for the nerf to 99% of the player base and to all tanks until we spend way too much to get the old value for our leg mounts. I have 3 leg mounts on my main, 15% bolster. 2.5% assumed per epic, so 32.5% bolster I'll have and will need 70% just to get back the effect of leg triceratops 50k hp which isn't cheap, hell may take years to get there. This is why they didn't want to put it on preview, just like Redeemed citadel, because they don't want backlash until its too late.
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  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    As for the leaderboard reward this time around, you'll be able to pick up the Scathing Light artifact. Those who have faced off against Zariel in the trial might recognize the attack, and it will share visual effects with her version of the spell. Many of you have been curious about where to obtain the Golden Memories artifact, and this will be the version of the artifact available in the Zen Market once milestone II has been completed. Scathing Light is a special alternate visual version of the Golden Memories artifact, and either artifact will complete the artifact set.

    So, lets get this straight, we paid for milestone III bottom rewards, grind for the bottom rewards, then we either have to get top 100 or pay again to make the artifact set have any value? Double paywall, without telling us before hand. Or lose your mind competing against 10k other people for top 100, for an arti set that works best for a tank. Yep, thanks again horrible devs.
    Post edited by sagakaiyume#0847 on
  • eion311eion311 Member Posts: 338 Arc User
    The extreme nerf to Triceratops is ridiculous. I didn't assume it would be boosted to like 150k, but to have the new max to 60k AFTER upgrading/acquiring mounts is beyond comprehension.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
    SURPRISE!
    Elite Whaleboy
  • kierlakxkierlakx Member Posts: 117 Arc User

    Today at 17:13
    Because bolster gives up to 100% stats and that 7.5k armpen/power is the max you can getvwith 100% bolster, by itself the mythic trex will give 3.75k +10%
    Today at 17:16
    Hp mounts like the triceratops will be getting the largest nerfs. A mythic triceratops will give 30k HP at base +10% bolster.
    With 100% bolster it will give 60k hp
    Firstly, mount update. This was recently posted in my alliance discord, so lets first thank the devs for the nerf to 99% of the player base and to all tanks until we spend way too much to get the old value for our leg mounts. I have 3 leg mounts on my main, 15% bolster. 2.5% assumed per epic, so 32.5% bolster I'll have and will need 70% just to get back the effect of leg triceratops 50k hp which isn't cheap, hell may take years to get there. This is why they didn't want to put it on preview, just like Redeemed citadel, because they don't want backlash until its too late.

    Where are you getting the numbers from? I don't see them in the announcement.

  • matii#4660 matii Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    kierlakx said:

    Today at 17:13
    Because bolster gives up to 100% stats and that 7.5k armpen/power is the max you can getvwith 100% bolster, by itself the mythic trex will give 3.75k +10%
    Today at 17:16
    Hp mounts like the triceratops will be getting the largest nerfs. A mythic triceratops will give 30k HP at base +10% bolster.
    With 100% bolster it will give 60k hp
    Firstly, mount update. This was recently posted in my alliance discord, so lets first thank the devs for the nerf to 99% of the player base and to all tanks until we spend way too much to get the old value for our leg mounts. I have 3 leg mounts on my main, 15% bolster. 2.5% assumed per epic, so 32.5% bolster I'll have and will need 70% just to get back the effect of leg triceratops 50k hp which isn't cheap, hell may take years to get there. This is why they didn't want to put it on preview, just like Redeemed citadel, because they don't want backlash until its too late.

    Where are you getting the numbers from? I don't see them in the announcement.

    https://arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/11478183-the-redeemed-lockbox!
    Note: tooltip displays max possible stats when a player has 10+ Mythic mounts in their stable.
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    I think you're counting on the HAMSTER side :)
    At zero bolster ... I think with 9 epic mounts and one legendary mount, you'll have your power 10k or even a little more.
    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    Are you sure it will be like this?
    Because so far it's just a discussion.. Maybe wait until Tuesday to light the pyre?
    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • kierlakxkierlakx Member Posts: 117 Arc User
    mushellka said:

    Are you sure it will be like this?
    Because so far it's just a discussion.. Maybe wait until Tuesday to light the pyre?

    Well, now that I have seen the post, there's no reason to wait to get angry, because some simple math tells us that this is a sweeping nerf. The stats shown on the KoS are with max bolster, meaning they are being doubled. Meaning that half of our current stats are going to be locked behind owning 10 mythic mounts. Meaning that our current 5k power mounts are now only 2500 power mounts, and the 10k power mounts, for the ones that have them, are now 5k power mounts.

    The combined rating shown, 5625, is being doubled. So 2812 for a mythic mount. A leg mount would be half of that, so 1406. An epic mount, which is the highest quality mount most people can manage, is going to be half of a leg mount, or 703 combined rating. Or, 878 CR assuming the not especially likely scenario that you have 9 more epic mounts, each giving you 2.5% bolster. Most of the people I know, unless they are a whale, have 3-6 epic mounts and then some random amount of blue and green mounts.

    This change is a huge HAMSTER lie. The stated goal of making it easier for people to gear up and meet caps is a LIE. The numbers and math are so unbelievably back-loaded that it's not going to help anyone meet anything, and in fact will be making it even harder for people to meet the power floors groups require for ToMM. This change is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to squeeze cash out of people just to get back to where they were before.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,259 Arc User
    kierlakx said:

    mushellka said:

    Are you sure it will be like this?
    Because so far it's just a discussion.. Maybe wait until Tuesday to light the pyre?

    Well, now that I have seen the post, there's no reason to wait to get angry, because some simple math tells us that this is a sweeping nerf. The stats shown on the KoS are with max bolster, meaning they are being doubled. Meaning that half of our current stats are going to be locked behind owning 10 mythic mounts. Meaning that our current 5k power mounts are now only 2500 power mounts, and the 10k power mounts, for the ones that have them, are now 5k power mounts.

    The combined rating shown, 5625, is being doubled. So 2812 for a mythic mount. A leg mount would be half of that, so 1406. An epic mount, which is the highest quality mount most people can manage, is going to be half of a leg mount, or 703 combined rating. Or, 878 CR assuming the not especially likely scenario that you have 9 more epic mounts, each giving you 2.5% bolster. Most of the people I know, unless they are a whale, have 3-6 epic mounts and then some random amount of blue and green mounts.

    This change is a huge HAMSTER lie. The stated goal of making it easier for people to gear up and meet caps is a LIE. The numbers and math are so unbelievably back-loaded that it's not going to help anyone meet anything, and in fact will be making it even harder for people to meet the power floors groups require for ToMM. This change is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to squeeze cash out of people just to get back to where they were before.
    You may be right, but I think you need to take some things into account, not only think in the raw stats, you need to evaluate the whole system overhaul:

    1) We dont know if legendary bonus is half the mythic bonus and epic bonus is half of legendary bonus.

    2) You are not counting collars, another source of stats. Ok secondary stats but more stats anyway that makes your character better. I preffer 10% critical severity than the power I will lose from the mount.

    3) This is a new scenario to have something to do, to progress your character and have more options, much more interesting that having a mythic mount with more stats and nothing more. If collars drop in dungeons, you can sell them, everyone can farm something that is valuable, at all power levels, not only the newest dungeon / trial.

    4) They are introducing account wide companions with this change, and companion prize reduction. Thats huge, more if you have alts.

    I dont care losing 2500 or 3000 power in this scenario really.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
    Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    kierlakx said:

    mushellka said:

    Are you sure it will be like this?
    Because so far it's just a discussion.. Maybe wait until Tuesday to light the pyre?

    Well, now that I have seen the post, there's no reason to wait to get angry, because some simple math tells us that this is a sweeping nerf. The stats shown on the KoS are with max bolster, meaning they are being doubled. Meaning that half of our current stats are going to be locked behind owning 10 mythic mounts. Meaning that our current 5k power mounts are now only 2500 power mounts, and the 10k power mounts, for the ones that have them, are now 5k power mounts.

    The combined rating shown, 5625, is being doubled. So 2812 for a mythic mount. A leg mount would be half of that, so 1406. An epic mount, which is the highest quality mount most people can manage, is going to be half of a leg mount, or 703 combined rating. Or, 878 CR assuming the not especially likely scenario that you have 9 more epic mounts, each giving you 2.5% bolster. Most of the people I know, unless they are a whale, have 3-6 epic mounts and then some random amount of blue and green mounts.


    And from what math did you calculated that epic mount will give 2.5% bolster, while mythic gives 10%? In my opinion it will be 5%, so with 10 pieces you will get 50%.
    But keep on having fun with your math, I'll just wait. At best, I will be disappointed. But I expect that if I'm right, you'll admit that your math sucks: D

    This change is a huge HAMSTER lie. The stated goal of making it easier for people to gear up and meet caps is a LIE. The numbers and math are so unbelievably back-loaded that it's not going to help anyone meet anything, and in fact will be making it even harder for people to meet the power floors groups require for ToMM. This change is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to squeeze cash out of people just to get back to where they were before.

    And from what math did you calculated that epic mount will give 2.5% bolster, while mythic gives 10%? In my opinion it will be 5%, so with 10 pieces you will get 50%.
    But keep on having fun with your math, I'll just wait. At best, I will be disappointed. But I expect that if I'm right, you'll admit that your math sucks: D

    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 3,041 Arc User
    Well, that would explain why the prices for account-wide legendary mounts have gone up from below 4m AD to nearly 8m AD... everyone is trying to get at least a few leg. mounts before this update goes live.
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 402 Arc User
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,182 Arc User
    regenerde said:

    Well, that would explain why the prices for account-wide legendary mounts have gone up from below 4m AD to nearly 8m AD... everyone is trying to get at least a few leg. mounts before this update goes live.

    Some are playing the market. It is not limited to account wide legendary mounts. There are few items I have been tracking had their price jacked up. Somebody probably did a big acquisition to clean them up. There are at least 2 items I noticed that was around 50k (and had many) suddenly became 150k with only few in AH. One of them has dropped back to around 80K.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • kierlakxkierlakx Member Posts: 117 Arc User
    mushellka said:

    kierlakx said:

    mushellka said:

    Are you sure it will be like this?
    Because so far it's just a discussion.. Maybe wait until Tuesday to light the pyre?

    Well, now that I have seen the post, there's no reason to wait to get angry, because some simple math tells us that this is a sweeping nerf. The stats shown on the KoS are with max bolster, meaning they are being doubled. Meaning that half of our current stats are going to be locked behind owning 10 mythic mounts. Meaning that our current 5k power mounts are now only 2500 power mounts, and the 10k power mounts, for the ones that have them, are now 5k power mounts.

    The combined rating shown, 5625, is being doubled. So 2812 for a mythic mount. A leg mount would be half of that, so 1406. An epic mount, which is the highest quality mount most people can manage, is going to be half of a leg mount, or 703 combined rating. Or, 878 CR assuming the not especially likely scenario that you have 9 more epic mounts, each giving you 2.5% bolster. Most of the people I know, unless they are a whale, have 3-6 epic mounts and then some random amount of blue and green mounts.


    And from what math did you calculated that epic mount will give 2.5% bolster, while mythic gives 10%? In my opinion it will be 5%, so with 10 pieces you will get 50%.
    But keep on having fun with your math, I'll just wait. At best, I will be disappointed. But I expect that if I'm right, you'll admit that your math sucks: D

    This change is a huge HAMSTER lie. The stated goal of making it easier for people to gear up and meet caps is a LIE. The numbers and math are so unbelievably back-loaded that it's not going to help anyone meet anything, and in fact will be making it even harder for people to meet the power floors groups require for ToMM. This change is nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to squeeze cash out of people just to get back to where they were before.

    And from what math did you calculated that epic mount will give 2.5% bolster, while mythic gives 10%? In my opinion it will be 5%, so with 10 pieces you will get 50%.
    But keep on having fun with your math, I'll just wait. At best, I will be disappointed. But I expect that if I'm right, you'll admit that your math sucks: D

    Because we already know that mythic is 10%, and that leg is 5%. See the link that sagakaiyume posted.

    "Mount Bolster: Your 10 highest quality mounts add to your mount bolster which in turn increases your mount passive and combat powers up to double their base effectiveness."

    That's written above the second screenshot. It shows a legendary mount and it's bolster amount, 5%. that means 10 legendary mounts is a 50% buff to the stats. What would a mythic mount's bolster value have to be for 10 of them to add up to +100%?
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    Hmm ... I overlooked this information. So let's assume that epic mount gives 2.5%, according to your ratings. So ... I think that you still can't call it a nerf, if you'll lose around 500 power or about 4k hp. Well, but this is still empty discussion.
    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • kranky#1106 kranky Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    mushellka said:

    Hmm ... I overlooked this information. So let's assume that epic mount gives 2.5%, according to your ratings. So ... I think that you still can't call it a nerf, if you'll lose around 500 power or about 4k hp. Well, but this is still empty discussion.

    empty discussion?? look at it this way you have a leg 10k power mount. now that same mount will have 5k power (like it was before they boosted them). if you lvl that mount to mythic it becomes 7,500 power (then you need to lvl 9 other mounts to mythic to get full boost of 15k power. can you imagine the cost and time it will take a player to get that many mythic mounts? or even 5? just to get back to where we currently are.

    cryptic is making it very well known that if your not willing to pay you you will just get left behind. same as with the new tank artifact set (we pay) for forgers just to get bottom row rewards and we still had to do the grind. now we will get a neck and waist parts of a new set after we grind out another 28k favors and then what? if we are not in the top 100 or willing to spend zen the set is useless? On top of that we PAID for a Bis race (dragon born) we paid for forgers to be able to get the rewards and new race (and even did the same grind as everyone else) and maybe pay to complete the new set and after all that paying we still cannot use the damn head piece visuals? this company dont give a craptic about its players only in figuring out a way to surprise sucker punch them with false upgrades or systems that start by reducing the stuff we already farmed / upgraded / purchased and offering us ways to pay to get back what they took (after we already paid for it once)
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    I can see the general "nerf" point being made here but take a second to look at where the average player will start:

    Average player has a character with a legendary and and handful of other mounts at random grades. They will quickly be able to upgrade this set to:

    1 Mythic mount + 9 Purple mounts. (total bolster for this set is: 32.5%)

    This puts them about where they are now in stats. Over time they can add Account-Legendary to their stable, or simply upgrade the ones they have. This will bring them over where they were. Its not overnight unless we pay big money, but the final upgrades will bring a difference of plus 5% in damage at most for example. We don't know how expensive or cheap the upgrade process will be at this point. ACCT bound mounts will also be awarded from events.

  • unknowndramaunknowndrama Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 115 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    I decided that it does'nt matter why get headache for this ..what will be the benefit of this..none..scaling dungeons..encounters...camping mobs for 2 hours to get to spawn to 2 mobs that doesnt drop no trophy fk that..dont care...
    Post edited by unknowndrama on
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    -
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    edited September 2020

    I can see the general "nerf" point being made here but take a second to look at where the average player will start:

    Average player has a character with a legendary and and handful of other mounts at random grades. They will quickly be able to upgrade this set to:

    1 Mythic mount + 9 Purple mounts. (total bolster for this set is: 32.5%)

    This puts them about where they are now in stats. Over time they can add Account-Legendary to their stable, or simply upgrade the ones they have. This will bring them over where they were. Its not overnight unless we pay big money, but the final upgrades will bring a difference of plus 5% in damage at most for example. We don't know how expensive or cheap the upgrade process will be at this point. ACCT bound mounts will also be awarded from events.

    I agree.
    I said exactly the same, although in different words.

    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    I was tempted to play the market and buy some leg mounts but i"m not convinced that it's going to be THAT expensive to upgrade to leg from epic. it would have to be millions expensive to make that leap for all leg mounts to hold their value. we also doon't know if the epic versions of leg mounts will retain a special bonus or not being the same mount but lower quality. this is a gamble I"m not gonna play on. i've bought some epic mounts that have good stats. but for the most part because of no information I'm staying a step or two back. there is room to get burned on this one.
  • aradyn#0871 aradyn Member Posts: 91 Arc User
    -While I too was raged when I saw the thread that they will be nerf-ing the initial legendary stats (IE starting at 5k power vs. 10k power), I quickly got over it after running the numbers. As others have stated:
    1) The TRex screen shot shows a combined rating of +5625, which we didn't previously get. This attributes to EVERY stat (except HP/Power). That is essentially 7x 5625 = 39,375 extra stat points. Even if it is only a single mythic (ie half the stats, giving 10% of the bolster) = /2 *1.1 = 21656 + 3750 Arm Pen + 3750 Power.
    -A single Legendary power mount will likely give: (5625/3) * 1.05 = 1968 combined rating * 7 disciplines = 13,781 to all stats + 5250 power. That's over 19k stat points. This will definitely help new players balance out stats more than just a simple 10k power.
    2) The dev's have already said it will follow similar companion upgrade paths. IE Blue -> Purple = 60 tokens, Purple -> Orange = 90, and thanks to a dev leak that it will be 200 tokens to go to mythic. At 500 Zen per pack of 75 tokens (400 with coupon), you are looking at an AD conversion of 1000 zen * 750 AD = 750k AD to take a blue mount to legendary... Compared to the current mount price of 4-5 million. Again, much much cheaper for a new player. That's 1.875m AD for a mythic, INSANE!
    3) We don't know mount collar stats. If they are anything like companion gear, they will also have combined rating. It will likely max around current companion gear (1100) and start at under mountain stats. So, you will get another 800 combined stats from the base, another 5600 in stats.
    -I just don't understand the arguments of how this will HURT new players. Everything here, shows that it will make stat balancing MUCH easier for them, and for veteran players, well if you want to be the absolute best in slot, you should have learned long ago to convert and save zen. If not, that's on you.
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User
    Who told you that 75 tokens will cost 500 zen?
    Lol ...Where do you get these ideas from? :D
    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • kierlakxkierlakx Member Posts: 117 Arc User

    I can see the general "nerf" point being made here but take a second to look at where the average player will start:

    Average player has a character with a legendary and and handful of other mounts at random grades. They will quickly be able to upgrade this set to:

    1 Mythic mount + 9 Purple mounts. (total bolster for this set is: 32.5%)

    This puts them about where they are now in stats. Over time they can add Account-Legendary to their stable, or simply upgrade the ones they have. This will bring them over where they were. Its not overnight unless we pay big money, but the final upgrades will bring a difference of plus 5% in damage at most for example. We don't know how expensive or cheap the upgrade process will be at this point. ACCT bound mounts will also be awarded from events.

    What fantasy world are you living in that the average player has a legendary mount? Average players don't even have all three bondings at rank 15.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    mushellka said:

    Who told you that 75 tokens will cost 500 zen?
    Lol ...Where do you get these ideas from? :D

    given that they expect us to do ten, I actually think that sounds about right. it was stated they wanted to make it more equal for everyone and that we could expect leggos to maintain some value because of their unique encounter power. that means the price shouldn't be outrageous and that leggos will not be able to stand up to the pricing.
  • nullify#8067 nullify Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    kierlakx said:

    I can see the general "nerf" point being made here but take a second to look at where the average player will start:

    Average player has a character with a legendary and and handful of other mounts at random grades. They will quickly be able to upgrade this set to:

    1 Mythic mount + 9 Purple mounts. (total bolster for this set is: 32.5%)

    This puts them about where they are now in stats. Over time they can add Account-Legendary to their stable, or simply upgrade the ones they have. This will bring them over where they were. Its not overnight unless we pay big money, but the final upgrades will bring a difference of plus 5% in damage at most for example. We don't know how expensive or cheap the upgrade process will be at this point. ACCT bound mounts will also be awarded from events.

    What fantasy world are you living in that the average player has a legendary mount? Average players don't even have all three bondings at rank 15.
    That just means this change will help the average player even more, as upgrading a mount to legendary will become a real goal more than a pipedream for them.

  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    kierlakx said:

    I can see the general "nerf" point being made here but take a second to look at where the average player will start:

    Average player has a character with a legendary and and handful of other mounts at random grades. They will quickly be able to upgrade this set to:

    1 Mythic mount + 9 Purple mounts. (total bolster for this set is: 32.5%)

    This puts them about where they are now in stats. Over time they can add Account-Legendary to their stable, or simply upgrade the ones they have. This will bring them over where they were. Its not overnight unless we pay big money, but the final upgrades will bring a difference of plus 5% in damage at most for example. We don't know how expensive or cheap the upgrade process will be at this point. ACCT bound mounts will also be awarded from events.




    What fantasy world are you living in that the average player has a legendary mount? Average players don't even have all three bondings at rank 15.
    average end gamers do. I basically don't know anyone in the end game guilds I'm in that don't have one.
  • aradyn#0871 aradyn Member Posts: 91 Arc User
    mushellka said:

    Who told you that 75 tokens will cost 500 zen?
    Lol ...Where do you get these ideas from? :D

    Seeing as companion tokens are 500 zen per 75 pack, and the news article mentions they making both companion & mount prices identical... And if you read the entire post, I had already mentioned... A dev already spoiled it when discussing that it's upgrade method would be linked with companion advancement. It's in the same post where he mentioned the nerf to HP that everyone is freaking out about. I am getting these ideas from lots of places.
  • kierlakxkierlakx Member Posts: 117 Arc User

    kierlakx said:

    I can see the general "nerf" point being made here but take a second to look at where the average player will start:

    Average player has a character with a legendary and and handful of other mounts at random grades. They will quickly be able to upgrade this set to:

    1 Mythic mount + 9 Purple mounts. (total bolster for this set is: 32.5%)

    This puts them about where they are now in stats. Over time they can add Account-Legendary to their stable, or simply upgrade the ones they have. This will bring them over where they were. Its not overnight unless we pay big money, but the final upgrades will bring a difference of plus 5% in damage at most for example. We don't know how expensive or cheap the upgrade process will be at this point. ACCT bound mounts will also be awarded from events.

    What fantasy world are you living in that the average player has a legendary mount? Average players don't even have all three bondings at rank 15.
    That just means this change will help the average player even more, as upgrading a mount to legendary will become a real goal more than a pipedream for them.

    No. The real goal will still be to buy specific leg mounts, because all of the non-leg mount powers will be terrible.
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