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On the topic of fixing the ADx backlog

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  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,273 Arc User
    @mithrosnomore a friend told me the current wait time (assuming you posted at 750:1) is 50 days.
    @quickfoot#7851 you seem to assume the Zen in the exchange comes from Cryptic, it does not. The Zen in the exchange is only from players who bought Zen for cash. My guild leader expressed that here in this thread earlier, but his comments got removed for trolling. lol Cryptic giving out free Zen is not going to happen, because the Zen belongs to PWE their parent company. That would be akin to giving away money that don't belong to you.
    @krumple01 I invested in ten of the limited Astral Loot Boxes sold by players in the AH. I got mine for as low as 85K! I didn't open them players are selling them in the AH today for over 100K. I know it is crazy insane. The thing is, players know there is a slim chance to get a legendary mount and willing to pay over a million AD just for a few shots at it. Personally I think the limited boxes was a great idea. The truth is players just didn't like the fact they could not flip the contents for an even bigger profit. The only "return" you should expect from anything is the fun and enjoyment from the item you received and not something you plan to flip for profit.
    As @greywynd stated, the exchange is working as intended. There is no fixing it. You either use it or you don't. I don't "need it" so PWE can do as they please. Unless an official wants to correct me, the exchange is all PWE and to the best of my knowledge Cryptic Studios has no authority on it.



    wb-cenders.gif
  • alanea#4230 alanea Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    greywynd said:


    And? If people need the wards, then they will buy the wards. If they don't like the prices in the AH, then they will buy from the zen market.

    I'm playing with words? Words have specific meanings. Getting AD from a sale in the AH doesn't "generate" it. It moves pre-existing AD from one account to another.

    0% relevance to topic

    no one care where ad come from ... as topic title say we discuss backlog here why it exist how it works and why this wont stop .. just grow as more and more people abuse it

    for wards ... most people is actually f2p so they wont buy zen , leaving them only two options ... waiting month for own zen or wait month most dont keep exchanged zen just in case thats why people buying wards 20-40% "above zen price"
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,822 Arc User
    edited September 2020


    for wards ... most people is actually f2p so they wont buy zen , leaving them only two options ... waiting month for own zen or wait month most dont keep exchanged zen just in case thats why people buying wards 20-40% "above zen price"

    There is a 3rd option. Get the wards from game. I have not bought any wards from Zen store or AH for years now and I play 6 characters.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 674 Arc User

    @mithrosnomore a friend told me the current wait time (assuming you posted at 750:1) is 50 days.

    Oh yeah, 750:1 for sure. No point in anything else unless you are just waiting for a market crash to happen.

    But I am patient.

    As I said earlier, if someone wants Zen now they can get Zen now. I am no exception.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,273 Arc User


    for wards ... most people is actually f2p so they wont buy zen , leaving them only two options ... waiting month for own zen or wait month most dont keep exchanged zen just in case thats why people buying wards 20-40% "above zen price"

    There is a 3rd option. Get the wards from game. I have not bought any wards from Zen store or AH for years now and I play 6 characters.
    I have no desire to buy Zen at all. I get coalescent wards at a rate of 2 to 3 per month when I do full invokes on all 8 of my characters, the rest of the time the green preservation wards show up and I am sitting on a 35 of those and 1 coal. Sure they are account bound, but I am not trying flip assets. At present I am looking very hard at what I need to refine on which character. Today I am working on Goro Thay's artifacts.

    I don't see the need to buy wards with zen or AD either. The only time I ever obtained Zen from the exchange was a long time ago when it traded at 500:1 the items I purchased were one and done services; +6 additional character slots, 3x 8 slots for my shared bank, and I even tried out VIP for a few months. The only way to make me buy Zen or need to trade Zen, would have something I want in the Zen store that doesn't end up in the AH. Everything ends up being sold in the AH.
    wb-cenders.gif
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 488 Arc User
    A "Buy Now" option for Zen (at a higher rate) is not equivalent to "giving away free zen", This statement is a fallacy trying to narrow the scope of my original argument to one you can easily argue against.

    1st thing wrong with fallacy, Ad is not free. Evidence; a player buys zen and converts that zen into AD, i.e. not free, ad has value.

    A hidden assumption in this fallacy is that digital currencies don't have value unless bought directly with real world money, a clear counter example is mining Bitcoin.

    Hopefully this is enough to convince you that this fallacy holds no water.

    There are several advantages to offering an option for players to "Buy Zen Now" from the company (whether that's cryptic or pwe) at a higher rate than what can be purchased from player through the exchange.

    1) It's a major AD sink that will actually work. There is a financial benefit to reducing the amount of AD in the economy, thus increasing it's value, which may not be immediately obvious. In other words, by offering a "Buy Now" option for zen, they can indirectly increase their profits, by increasing the value of AD, which in turn increases the value of Zen.

    2) It provides an "overflow valve" for the ZAX. When the economy is flooded with AD, people will be more than willing to spend more AD to get Zen sooner. As AD becomes more scarce, the ZAX backlog will go down and eventually people will be more willing to wait than pay more for Zen.

    3) It reduces any need to continually raise the ZAX cap, which we have seen, does not work.

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,822 Arc User
    edited September 2020

    A "Buy Now" option for Zen (at a higher rate) is not equivalent to "giving away free zen", This statement is a fallacy trying to narrow the scope of my original argument to one you can easily argue against.

    1st thing wrong with fallacy, Ad is not free. Evidence; a player buys zen and converts that zen into AD, i.e. not free, ad has value.

    A hidden assumption in this fallacy is that digital currencies don't have value unless bought directly with real world money, a clear counter example is mining Bitcoin.

    Hopefully this is enough to convince you that this fallacy holds no water.

    There are several advantages to offering an option for players to "Buy Zen Now" from the company (whether that's cryptic or pwe) at a higher rate than what can be purchased from player through the exchange.

    1) It's a major AD sink that will actually work. There is a financial benefit to reducing the amount of AD in the economy, thus increasing it's value, which may not be immediately obvious. In other words, by offering a "Buy Now" option for zen, they can indirectly increase their profits, by increasing the value of AD, which in turn increases the value of Zen.

    2) It provides an "overflow valve" for the ZAX. When the economy is flooded with AD, people will be more than willing to spend more AD to get Zen sooner. As AD becomes more scarce, the ZAX backlog will go down and eventually people will be more willing to wait than pay more for Zen.

    3) It reduces any need to continually raise the ZAX cap, which we have seen, does not work.

    $ (cryptic gets) -> Zen -> AD
    AD -> Zen but no $.

    The $ is missing in the reverse direction. You may consider AD is not free but AD is free of $.

    $ -> bitcoin.
    bitcoin -> $
    If the reverse transaction is not available, will any care about bitcoin much?

    Bottom line:
    will cryptic get more $ if the reverse transaction exist? I don't think so.
    will Cryptic get less $ if the transaction exist? I believe so.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,273 Arc User
    edited September 2020

    A "Buy Now" option for Zen (at a higher rate) is not equivalent to "giving away free zen", This statement is a fallacy trying to narrow the scope of my original argument to one you can easily argue against.

    The "Buy Now" option doesn't work, when there is no ZEN to buy. Here is an example;
    • The Zen bank is empty and so is the AD bank.
    • Player Bob places an offer to trade 750,000 AD for 1000 Zen. Now he must wait for other players to sell Zen.
    • A week later John sees Bob's offer and throws in 100 Zen but this is not enough, it sits in the Zen bank waiting to build up.
    • Another player happens along and Sue throws in 850 Zen but this is still not enough.
    • Then finally Jim puts 200 Zen in and Bob gets his Zen in return.
    • Long ago other players have requested Zen for AD as well, but there is only an excess of 150 Zen after Bob's payout.
    • Those players must wait in line for others to toss Zen into the bank.
    What you are suggesting, someone can cut in line for more and get immediate results, and here is the problem...
    • After Bob placed his order, 5 others in the first week, placed their orders for Zen amounting to a total of 30,000 Zen.
    • There is only 150 Zen in the whole bank and the next order to be filled is 5,000 Zen.
    • Alex comes along puts in 800,000 AD and presses your "Buy Now" button.
    How does he get paid? Since there is only 150 Zen in the whole bank, where is this Zen coming from?

    Another way to look at it would be; A man sells apples and oranges by the roadside. He places 2 baskets out and tells his customers they are free to exchange oranges for apples or the reverse. But he only sells his stock. Those baskets are for customer to customer exchanges and he only owns the baskets. Again if oranges are trade 3:1 for apples. There will be times the apple basket is empty and customers are lined up waiting for apples to arrive. Now Alex shows up and has 6 oranges and wants his apples now, but the basket is empty. Where do the apples come from? The man's stock is for sale and he sure won't place his apples in that basket. Alex needs to wait for the next person with apples to show up and mug him.

    I hope that makes it very clear why a "Buy Now" will not work.

    As to the "value" of AD, yes it could be said that 1 Zen = 1 ¢ = 750 AD, but you cannot trade fries with another customer and sell their hamburger back to McDonald's.
    wb-cenders.gif
  • durugudesudurugudesu Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    I see no logical reason why they would decide adding a "BUY ZEN NOW AT A HIGHER RATE" over, hmmm just raising the current exchange to whatever that HIGHER RATE you are suggesting.. plus more, just because they can do this and this would solve the backlog for maybe an hour or two (after its out) before it gets maxed out again until the next "raise the exchange cap" happens.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,822 Arc User
    edited September 2020

    A "Buy Now" option for Zen (at a higher rate) is not equivalent to "giving away free zen", This statement is a fallacy trying to narrow the scope of my original argument to one you can easily argue against.

    The "Buy Now" option doesn't work, when there is no ZEN to buy. Here is an example;
    • The Zen bank is empty and so is the AD bank.
    • Player Bob places an offer to trade 750,000 AD for 1000 Zen. Now he must wait for other players to sell Zen.
    • A week later John sees Bob's offer and throws in 100 Zen but this is not enough, it sits in the Zen bank waiting to build up.
    • Another player happens along and Sue throws in 850 Zen but this is still not enough.
    • Then finally Jim puts 200 Zen in and Bob gets his Zen in return.
    • Long ago other players have requested Zen for AD as well, but there is only an excess of 150 Zen after Bob's payout.
    • Those players must wait in line for others to toss Zen into the bank.
    What you are suggesting, someone can cut in line for more and get immediate results, and here is the problem...
    • After Bob placed his order, 5 others in the first week, placed their orders for Zen amounting to a total of 30,000 Zen.
    • There is only 150 Zen in the whole bank and the next order to be filled is 5,000 Zen.
    • Alex comes along puts in 800,000 AD and presses your "Buy Now" button.
    How does he get paid? Since there is only 150 Zen in the whole bank, where is this Zen coming from?

    Another way to look at it would be; A man sells apples and oranges by the roadside. He places 2 baskets out and tells his customers they are free to exchange oranges for apples or the reverse. But he only sells his stock. Those baskets are for customer to customer exchanges and he only owns the baskets. Again if oranges are trade 3:1 for apples. There will be times the apple basket is empty and customers are lined up waiting for apples to arrive. Now Alex shows up and has 6 oranges and wants his apples now, but the basket is empty. Where do the apples come from? The man's stock is for sale and he sure won't place his apples in that basket. Alex needs to wait for the next person with apples to show up and mug him.

    I hope that makes it very clear why a "Buy Now" will not work.

    As to the "value" of AD, yes it could be said that 1 Zen = 1 ¢ = 750 AD, but you cannot trade fries with another customer and sell their hamburger back to McDonald's.
    What he suggested is: Cryptic prints Zen to buy AD. There is no line up to "Buy Now" because Cryptic underwrite it by "printing" Zen. The AD will be destroyed instead of passing to another player.

    It is the 2nd "bank" and the buyer is Cryptic. Zax is the first bank and the buyer is Zen holders.

    As I explained before (probably last page), the "Buy Now" only serves those who are desperate. It is a "pay cheque money mart". People who can wait (for the bank to clear their cheque) will stay in the queue. It will not shorten the queue. I personally will stay in the queue because of better exchange rate. In emergency, I will buy just enough. The Zen holder does not get a better deal because they are not part of the 2nd bank (the money mart).

    Most will stay in the queue and the "poor" will use the Money mart to cash their pay cheque to pay for their weekend.

    In the end of the day, Cryptic will ask "what is this for me?" They won't get more money. They will get less money.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,214 Arc User



    In the end of the day, Cryptic will ask "what is this for me?" They won't get more money. They will get less money.

    Which pretty much ensures it will never be implemented.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    In a long term, a lot of backlog would be "fixed" by removing all discounts and offering various charge promos instead.
    The discounts are the main culprit why "turning AD to Zen through ZAX" is so profitable for merchandise resellers. That profit is what brings an insane amount of AD to the ZAX.
    On the other hand, charge promos usually bring some Zen to the ZAX instead.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 674 Arc User

    A "Buy Now" option for Zen (at a higher rate) is not equivalent to "giving away free zen", This statement is a fallacy trying to narrow the scope of my original argument to one you can easily argue against.

    1st thing wrong with fallacy, Ad is not free. Evidence; a player buys zen and converts that zen into AD, i.e. not free, ad has value.

    A hidden assumption in this fallacy is that digital currencies don't have value unless bought directly with real world money, a clear counter example is mining Bitcoin.

    Hopefully this is enough to convince you that this fallacy holds no water.

    As others have said.

    The exchange is player to player.
    That Zen was always ultimately paid for with cash. Cryptic got $$$ for that Zen.

    You are removing the $$$ from the equation.
    You would be allowing people to trade AD that they got just for playing for Zen that no one paid for.

    It's an AD sink because none of those ADs would go to players, but why would Cryptic want to sacrifice their income stream to introduce an AD sink?
  • ph33rm3ph33rm3 Member Posts: 542 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    There is only ONE way for the exchange to drop and that's if people exchange Zen for AD.

    The problem is that you get more AD if you use your purchased Zen to buy wards instead. I can speak from experience when I say they sell quickly. You just have to be willing to post the lowest price. Doing this even after the AH 10% fee nets you more AD than using the exchange.

    The wards need to be returned to the Tradebar Store and possibly added to the Wondrous Bazaar as an AD sink. IMHO wards have been the #1 driving factor in the exchange backlog. If wards were also available in the WB, ward prices would be fixed and more Zen would be exchanged for AD.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,214 Arc User
    Don't recall them being in the Bazaar. The Trade Bar Merchant had them and the coal ward. But hey, "they aren't going anywhere"...
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • ph33rm3ph33rm3 Member Posts: 542 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    Yes my bad. Tradebar store. I'll edit that. I was thinking about how they should also ad them to the WB as an AD sink/zen exchange driver.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,629 Arc User

    greywynd said:


    And? If people need the wards, then they will buy the wards. If they don't like the prices in the AH, then they will buy from the zen market.

    I'm playing with words? Words have specific meanings. Getting AD from a sale in the AH doesn't "generate" it. It moves pre-existing AD from one account to another.

    0% relevance to topic

    no one care where ad come from ... as topic title say we discuss backlog here why it exist how it works and why this wont stop .. just grow as more and more people abuse it

    for wards ... most people is actually f2p so they wont buy zen , leaving them only two options ... waiting month for own zen or wait month most dont keep exchanged zen just in case thats why people buying wards 20-40% "above zen price"
    If you don't care where AD comes from, or understand how it affects the backlog, then anything you post has 0% relevance to the topic at hand.
  • blargskullblargskull Member Posts: 459 Arc User
    Here is my solution.



    Followed by this AD sink.



    No problems only solutions.

    Just killing time...
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    I had an idea today that would help on many fronts:

    Allow each account, once per day, to instantly convert up to 50,000 raw Astral Diamonds into 50 Zen (1,000 AD per Zen).

    * This will put to sleep the notion that NWO is a pay to win game.

    * It will effectively increase the 100,000 refinement limit, a change many have been asking for.

    * It encourages daily play

    * It will take some of the pressure off of the ZaX backlog.

    * It is difficult to abuse - abusers would need to build multiple accounts and play to gain rAD daily. This is pretty safe. Abusers of this would not affect the market noticeably, and would be easy for Cryptic to detect.

    * This provides market protection. If a new zen item becomes available that because of supply-demand is generating over 1,000 AD per Zen, players can bring up the supply. The purpose would not be to prevent making a profit off of zen. The purpose would be to help prevent market manipulation. For instance... buying 1,000 mount token boxes on day 1 of release using Zen that was converted on ZAX and saved, then sold to triple one's money. I do not mean to attack the personal character of players who do this, it is creative and ambitious. It manipulates the market and weakens the game economy, however. In Neverwinter Online, we should not be providing ways for those with a billion+ AD to double their money over a mod release.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,822 Arc User
    edited September 2020

    I had an idea today that would help on many fronts:

    Allow each account, once per day, to instantly convert up to 50,000 raw Astral Diamonds into 50 Zen (1,000 AD per Zen).

    * This will put to sleep the notion that NWO is a pay to win game.

    It won't and Cryptic does not care regardless.


    * It will effectively increase the 100,000 refinement limit, a change many have been asking for.

    ok


    * It encourages daily play

    It won't. For those who has a lot of raw AD, they login everyday to refine rAD anyway. They just need to do one more thing.


    * It will take some of the pressure off of the ZaX backlog.

    It won't because this only eliminate rAD and not AD.


    * It is difficult to abuse - abusers would need to build multiple accounts and play to gain rAD daily. This is pretty safe. Abusers of this would not affect the market noticeably, and would be easy for Cryptic to detect.

    It is easy to abuse. You don't really have to play much to gain rAD. If one has a bot, it would be even easier.


    * This provides market protection. If a new zen item becomes available that because of supply-demand is generating over 1,000 AD per Zen, players can bring up the supply. The purpose would not be to prevent making a profit off of zen. The purpose would be to help prevent market manipulation. For instance... buying 1,000 mount token boxes on day 1 of release using Zen that was converted on ZAX and saved, then sold to triple one's money. I do not mean to attack the personal character of players who do this, it is creative and ambitious. It manipulates the market and weakens the game economy, however. In Neverwinter Online, we should not be providing ways for those with a billion+ AD to double their money over a mod release.

    Bottom line: the same question Cryptic will ask: what is this for me? Will they get more money from this? I don't think so. Will they get less money from this? I think so.
    The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,214 Arc User
    The purchase of zen, as it is now, is cash in Cryptic's coffers.

    You can play the game without needing zen.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 773 Arc User
    Well, it is nice to read here about fixing the backlog, AD sinks and whatnot... while in the wild the mount changes came, which is just one more push to make AD irrelevant and Zen the sole option.

    Stating that fixing the backlog in not a priority would be an understatement. At best they do not care. At best.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,214 Arc User
    rikitaki said:

    Well, it is nice to read here about fixing the backlog, AD sinks and whatnot... while in the wild the mount changes came, which is just one more push to make AD irrelevant and Zen the sole option.

    Stating that fixing the backlog in not a priority would be an understatement. At best they do not care. At best.

    Because it isn't broken. It works exactly as intended.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    When a person gets some infection their temperature rising in response. Having a temperature over normal is not being broken person, it's a normal response, but it's aslo an indicator of an issue. And usually people try to resolve it and not die when applicable.

    I don't see an argument that the ZAX is broken, it is not, and the backlog is a result of its functionality. But also the backlog is a symptom of an ill economy (hyper inflation is not healthy economy), hence suggestions to fix the issue.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,214 Arc User
    The only "fix", in that case, is that Cryptic needs to add wanted (by the players) AD sinks.

    But if all the people complaining because they aren't getting their zen fast enough actually BOUGHT zen with really money, it would also be a non-issue completely.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,931 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    Well, i bought an Improved Bag of Holding from the ZEN shop during a ViP sale, that bag ended up being bound to account after an update in January, Support told me that the Devs have to fix this issue... MONTHS of waiting, and then the Devs gave a reply along the line, sorry can't fix it. So, i contacted Support again in hope, that they would just delete the bound to account bag and hand me an unbound one, something they could actually do, but decided not to.

    And i'm not alone with that issue, there was someone that bought 6 bags during that sale, and all of them are now bound to account, he didn't get any help from the Support either.

    I also bought a Mage Slayer a while ago, but it wasn't turned into an account-wide companion with 3 other companions from the shop, so i contacted the Support again, here's their answer:
    "Hello,
    Thank you for contacting us.
    I am sorry to hear that the bought Mage Slayer companion is not reclaimable even after the game update. Looking at your account, I can confirm that it was purchased last February 22, 2017. While I am glad that you are able to reclaim the 3 other companions, due to the amount of time that has passed since that purchase, Mage Slayer companion is not eligible for a reclaim.
    Should you have any other concerns, feel free to contact us again.
    "

    Isn't that great? They can confirm that i bought the companion, but can't do Jack HAMSTER to actually help me get it.

    So, please do tell me why i should spend more money here.

    And that's not even touching all the problems around ZEN Charge Promotions... anyone still wondering why people stopped buying ZEN with real money, and stopped sending at least some ZEN into the ZAX? There you go!
    Post edited by regenerde on
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
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