Celestial weapon set bonus

jman3l#5579
jman3l#5579 Member Posts: 300 Arc User
edited July 2020 in Player Feedback (PC)
Hello, Neko-kun on PC,
After grinding Zarials challenge like crazy, I obtained the celestial set for my ranger. I did some testing and compared with lionheart weapons with the help of a good friend of mine and came up with the following:

Assuming lionhearts are a baseline,
Celestial weapon damage increases overall damage by about 8.3% compared with lionhearts,

The set bonus is 7.5% for 30 seconds with a 30 second cooldown and a proc time of 5 encounter/daily hits, which for most classes would be around 12 seconds based on cooldowns.
This leaves the set bonus with the following average increase in damage:
7.5% * 30 sec up / (30 sec up + 30 sec down + 12 sec proc) = ~3.1%

Lionheart set bonus is 10% and is almost always procced, but let's say its 9% for arguments sake.

Therefore the damage increase is this
8.3% weapon damage + 3.1% avg set bonus - 9% lionheart set bonus uptime.

This would mean one would expect about a 2.5% damage increase on average by switching to the celestial set.

However, because lionheart weapons were buffed so much (being an effective power creep), TOMM phases are so short that the celestial bonus is on cooldown for an entire phase. This, in my opinion, is poor design, as celestial weapons are not easy to obtain. I noticed almost no damage difference in several tests I ran, and under some scenarios celestial weapons were actually worse.

My suggestion is this: make it 5 hits to proc 7.5%, encounters, at wills, or dailies, and get rid of the cooldown, otherwise there could be serious class balance issues in the future. This will make it simple, but effective.

Thanks,
Neko

Comments

  • anoreksja
    anoreksja Member Posts: 113 Arc User
    Unfortunately Devs upgraded the Lionheart set but they killed the Watcher set from ME (mod16/17). I liked how the River District Artifact Weapons sets were made or Masterworks. Now there are very many things in (eg. treasure maps with bad RNG), many changes that would make me not want to team up with this broken m19.
  • unknowndrama
    unknowndrama Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 104 Arc User
    edited July 2020


    I have better idea, reduce lionheart 10% buff to like 2%. Set bonuses are not supposed to make a dagger in a lower damage class even in the discussion with a higher damage weapon. You raised lionhearts base damage giving it a boost but did not adjust the set bonus appropriately. Even without the bump the set bonus was a little too much to begin with. Find me another weapon that has a 10% damage set bonus or anything remotely close (not counting Celeste as its a new weapon).

    I'm sorry but that's the nature of end game sets that you need to work for - yes, they are BiS. Why would I have nerfed weapon I worked for so hard? And mind you, lionheart is obtainable without stupid rng, if you're not lucky in drop, you just run ToMM x40 to get your weapons from vendor. I do not see any reason why end game set should be nerfed, just because not everyone can get it? You'd better think twice before giving such advice to this forum, this studio has long history of taking stupid advice and making it real.
    And... celestial set bonus is trash for many classes.
    Lionheart is not even endgame any more Celeste is. If you want to inspire people to run the new trial there need to be incentive. If lionheart are on the sameish plain as Celeste then why bother.

    I hope they do listen that why I posted it. Make it happen!
    Lionheart set buff should be nerfed to be on par with other bonuses. Period.
    Dont be mad bro, I will laugh if they do ever listen to what is common sense.



    Is this a troll post?And by the way Zariel trial and Tomm even i played them is most boring content ever..1 boss and mechanics to jump left right move back move front ...boring...and prolly will never play Zariel..becose many of us dont like that kind of content..if i wanted i will have played Tera or FFXIV or Blade and soul or all the dungeons/raids are like tomm and zariel..just boring and annoying..
  • flecia#3114
    flecia#3114 Member Posts: 53 Arc User

    I have no inclination to spend pages upon pages explaining why my suggestion is common sense. I do however get amused by these guys that want to hold onto their lionheart forever to be bis. How old is tomm now? 1 year or more? Move on buddy. We have a new dungeon/trial with new weapons that at the very heart of any MMO should be UNDOUBTEDLY the bis weapons. This is how MMOS (should) work.... new content yields better gears.

    I do however know that this game does not fall into the category of common sense and that is why change need to happen.
    The new trial belt/neck set in trash. This should not be the case any more than the new weapon set should not be ON PAR with a year old weapon set.

    I am still waiting for someone to link me another set bonus that makes a lower weapon dagger EVEN IN THE DISCUSSION with a high damage weapon. YOU and everyone else knows that this LIonheart bonus is stronger than it should be for a set bonus.

    And no I am not saying this because I don't have a LIonheart... I don't even want a Lionheart.
    I would rather have a Legion (with a group of people carrying legions) for the up 5k power defence, crit aviodance etc.
    Babble on all you want about your Lionheart. Hold onto them as long as you can cause eventually they have to be replaced with
    better things. And much as base damage does matter .... the small difference (after Lions set bonus gets nerfed) is not enough that a skilled player with a Legion can far outdo a Lionheart geared character.







  • jman3l#5579
    jman3l#5579 Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    An above post claims that the weapons should be good since TOMM is difficult. Well, yes they should, but they were given a giant item level/weapon damage buff to the point at which celestial are only barely better, and for some classes, not better at all. That is not good game design. Even the legion set, which has a decent set bonus and outrageously bad RNG, is worse than lionhearts. So there is no reason for anyone to ever farm them. Just find a carry group and get your lionhearts.
  • flecia#3114
    flecia#3114 Member Posts: 53 Arc User

    An above post claims that the weapons should be good since TOMM is difficult. Well, yes they should, but they were given a giant item level/weapon damage buff to the point at which celestial are only barely better, and for some classes, not better at all. That is not good game design. Even the legion set, which has a decent set bonus and outrageously bad RNG, is worse than lionhearts. So there is no reason for anyone to ever farm them. Just find a carry group and get your lionhearts.

    I have never said that pure damage/equal setting even with nerf that Lionheart wouldnt be better pure damage.
    Life is not all about a little more damage base.
    For a rogue 90 base points of damage is basiclly little to nothing over using your skills right, having good crit hits, etc etc.

    I do not need to explain to anyone why I prefer a Legion overall it my personal choice. However, knowing that I can buff on avg 3k power, 3k crit aviod, 3k CA, 3k defence means WAY more to ME than 90 points of base damage. This means I can wear certain gear and still meet or (come close)cap stats without having to have 90k Defence and so on. I have no interest in running 40 ToMMs for a weapon i do not really want that badly. Again personal choice. To say there no reason for anyone to farm Legions is your opinion only.

    We do agree however that Lions buff is overkill and need to be brought on par with other weapon set buffs.








  • nic1985
    nic1985 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 398 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    I do think the Dev need to "balance" this w/o nerfing Lionhearts and buff Celestial. Celestial has been debated much during testing/preview, unfortunately no one was able to claim it to test vs Lionsheart so now the community have tested Celestial vs Lionsheart and providing more feedback.

    What @jman31 suggested make sense to buff Celestial "make it 5 hits to proc 7.5%, encounters, at wills, or dailies, and get rid of the cooldown". Please leave Lionsheart as is, since we all need it to have a chance at completing Zariel.
  • vastano#2343
    vastano#2343 Member Posts: 169 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    nic1985 said:

    I do think the Dev need to "balance" this w/o nerfing Lionhearts and buff Celestial. Celestial has been debated much during testing/preview, unfortunately no one was able to claim it to test vs Lionsheart so now the community have tested Celestial vs Lionsheart and providing more feedback.

    What @jman31 suggested make sense to buff Celestial "make it 5 hits to proc 7.5%, encounters, at wills, or dailies, and get rid of the cooldown". Please leave Lionsheart as is, since we all need it to have a chance at completing Zariel.

    thats the point
    he has his celestial doesnt want the rest of us to get it
    didnt notice him complaining about nerfing lionheart BEFORE he got celestial

  • flecia#3114
    flecia#3114 Member Posts: 53 Arc User

    nic1985 said:

    I do think the Dev need to "balance" this w/o nerfing Lionhearts and buff Celestial. Celestial has been debated much during testing/preview, unfortunately no one was able to claim it to test vs Lionsheart so now the community have tested Celestial vs Lionsheart and providing more feedback.

    What @jman31 suggested make sense to buff Celestial "make it 5 hits to proc 7.5%, encounters, at wills, or dailies, and get rid of the cooldown". Please leave Lionsheart as is, since we all need it to have a chance at completing Zariel.

    thats the point
    he has his celestial doesnt want the rest of us to get it
    didnt notice him complaining about nerfing lionheart BEFORE he got celestial

    Please get your facts right.
    I do not have Celestial nor Lionheart. I have Legion.
    I do not want Lionheart, because Legion is a better fit for me
    (Lions is still better from pure damage point of view but Legion offers more balance).

    Those of you belly - aching about needing a Lionheart to run the new trial need to look deeper at what Legion offers.
    I will bet that a full Legion geared party would have an easier time of it than a Lionheart geared party
    (unless of course you are the very elite geared that have all their caps and HP reequirements + a LIonheart).

    Simple fact... Lionheart has a set bonus that from a damage point of view gives to much such that a Lionheart can be brought into the discussion as BiS for damage.

    Simple fact... no other set bonuses do this (nor should they). Yes a Legion has a set bonus that makes it more enticing to me from a balance point of view. but I do not dispute that for damage a Lionheart is still better (though not much).

    Simple fact... Lionheart was buffed (200 points? for rogue base damage) and the effects of this buff were not considered in relation to how it would impact the already overblown set bonus.

    These are the facts of the case ... and they are indisputable. (A Few Good Men).


    Celeste is already at a high enough damage to complete the trials it does not need to be buffed more, Lionheart's need to be brought back to its proper place in the weapon damage hierarchy. Still keep its damage above a Legion ... but dial it back from a Celeste. 2-3% damage bonus is more than enough. The vast majority of Lionheart users will hardly ever have enough stamina drain that it will almost alway be constant 2-3%.














  • vastano#2343
    vastano#2343 Member Posts: 169 Arc User

    nic1985 said:

    I do think the Dev need to "balance" this w/o nerfing Lionhearts and buff Celestial. Celestial has been debated much during testing/preview, unfortunately no one was able to claim it to test vs Lionsheart so now the community have tested Celestial vs Lionsheart and providing more feedback.

    What @jman31 suggested make sense to buff Celestial "make it 5 hits to proc 7.5%, encounters, at wills, or dailies, and get rid of the cooldown". Please leave Lionsheart as is, since we all need it to have a chance at completing Zariel.

    thats the point
    he has his celestial doesnt want the rest of us to get it
    didnt notice him complaining about nerfing lionheart BEFORE he got celestial

    Please get your facts right.
    I do not have Celestial nor Lionheart. I have Legion.
    I do not want Lionheart, because Legion is a better fit for me
    (Lions is still better from pure damage point of view but Legion offers more balance).

    Those of you belly - aching about needing a Lionheart to run the new trial need to look deeper at what Legion offers.
    I will bet that a full Legion geared party would have an easier time of it than a Lionheart geared party
    (unless of course you are the very elite geared that have all their caps and HP reequirements + a LIonheart).

    Simple fact... Lionheart has a set bonus that from a damage point of view gives to much such that a Lionheart can be brought into the discussion as BiS for damage.

    Simple fact... no other set bonuses do this (nor should they). Yes a Legion has a set bonus that makes it more enticing to me from a balance point of view. but I do not dispute that for damage a Lionheart is still better (though not much).

    Simple fact... Lionheart was buffed (200 points? for rogue base damage) and the effects of this buff were not considered in relation to how it would impact the already overblown set bonus.

    These are the facts of the case ... and they are indisputable. (A Few Good Men).


    Celeste is already at a high enough damage to complete the trials it does not need to be buffed more, Lionheart's need to be brought back to its proper place in the weapon damage hierarchy. Still keep its damage above a Legion ... but dial it back from a Celeste. 2-3% damage bonus is more than enough. The vast majority of Lionheart users will hardly ever have enough stamina drain that it will almost alway be constant 2-3%.














    was not talking about you was talking about op
    and i will put my 2 cents in
    i dont have celestial as never ran zuriel challange
    i dont have lionheart as never been able to get into a tomm run
    i dont have legion set as map drop rate hates me (pulled 12 maps since mod 19 release)
    i do have hellfire set because even a lousy 465 damage boost is a help

  • flecia#3114
    flecia#3114 Member Posts: 53 Arc User

    nic1985 said:

    I do think the Dev need to "balance" this w/o nerfing Lionhearts and buff Celestial. Celestial has been debated much during testing/preview, unfortunately no one was able to claim it to test vs Lionsheart so now the community have tested Celestial vs Lionsheart and providing more feedback.

    What @jman31 suggested make sense to buff Celestial "make it 5 hits to proc 7.5%, encounters, at wills, or dailies, and get rid of the cooldown". Please leave Lionsheart as is, since we all need it to have a chance at completing Zariel.

    thats the point
    he has his celestial doesnt want the rest of us to get it
    didnt notice him complaining about nerfing lionheart BEFORE he got celestial

    Please get your facts right.
    I do not have Celestial nor Lionheart. I have Legion.
    I do not want Lionheart, because Legion is a better fit for me
    (Lions is still better from pure damage point of view but Legion offers more balance).

    Those of you belly - aching about needing a Lionheart to run the new trial need to look deeper at what Legion offers.
    I will bet that a full Legion geared party would have an easier time of it than a Lionheart geared party
    (unless of course you are the very elite geared that have all their caps and HP reequirements + a LIonheart).

    Simple fact... Lionheart has a set bonus that from a damage point of view gives to much such that a Lionheart can be brought into the discussion as BiS for damage.

    Simple fact... no other set bonuses do this (nor should they). Yes a Legion has a set bonus that makes it more enticing to me from a balance point of view. but I do not dispute that for damage a Lionheart is still better (though not much).

    Simple fact... Lionheart was buffed (200 points? for rogue base damage) and the effects of this buff were not considered in relation to how it would impact the already overblown set bonus.

    These are the facts of the case ... and they are indisputable. (A Few Good Men).


    Celeste is already at a high enough damage to complete the trials it does not need to be buffed more, Lionheart's need to be brought back to its proper place in the weapon damage hierarchy. Still keep its damage above a Legion ... but dial it back from a Celeste. 2-3% damage bonus is more than enough. The vast majority of Lionheart users will hardly ever have enough stamina drain that it will almost alway be constant 2-3%.














    was not talking about you was talking about op
    and i will put my 2 cents in
    i dont have celestial as never ran zuriel challange
    i dont have lionheart as never been able to get into a tomm run
    i dont have legion set as map drop rate hates me (pulled 12 maps since mod 19 release)
    i do have hellfire set because even a lousy 465 damage boost is a help

    My apologies then. You can see how I would think otherwise since I am the one that believes the Lionheart buff is overdone.
    The rest of my post still hold true...these are the fact of the case ....

    I feel your pain in getting legions... I lived it .. I hated it ..,
    But now I finally am here at Legion set ... I wish nothing but the best for those chasing them.

  • oldtimer#7525
    oldtimer#7525 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    According to my own calculations Celestial set without the set bonus active is about on par with a fully stacked Lionheart ( within as low as ~0.02% behind Lionheart or slightly better ) and roughly ~6 to up to 6.5% better for both damage and healing when the bonus is up. Assuming about ~40% realistic uptime after you factor in the cooldown and needing to stack it up that would average out to about ~2.5% gain as the OP suggested.

    I agree that the bonus should be changed to make it stackable on every at will,encounter or daily and the cooldown removed, i would also add a 7.5% increase to damage mitigation so that tanks have something to gain from this bonus as well (added mitigation for healers / DPS is always nice as well ). Increasing the uptime on the bonus to ~90% or higher with these changes and allowing it to be activated when needed will make Celestial bonus roughly ~5.5 to 5.8% better making it actually worthwhile to grind for.
  • jman3l#5579
    jman3l#5579 Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    > @vastano#2343 said:
    > (Quote)
    > thats the point
    > he has his celestial doesnt want the rest of us to get it
    > didnt notice him complaining about nerfing lionheart BEFORE he got celestial

    That is quite an absurd accusation. I've been farming the trial constantly, bringing in new people to get their weapons as others get there's. Perhaps learn about the player you are talking about before making idiotic accusations.

    My logic is, they released lionheart set originally in mod 17 and it was better than burnished weapons by quite a large margin, about 5% to 7% depending on set bonus procs etc, not to mention the DR. Then they release three new sets in mod 19, buffed lionhearts to the point of rendering two of the weapon sets completely irrelevant for those that already have lionhearts, and then put a terrible set bonus on celestials, one that tanks can't even use well because there is no DR.

    So dps gets a 2.5% to 3% dps increase depending on the class, tanks get less DR, and all of that effort for quite a difficult trial with a large HP gate keeping requirement.

    This is my issue. Rewards and progression are a part of MMOs. These design choices don't really make sense.