State of healing from the point of view of normal mmos

dolrey
dolrey Member Posts: 741 Arc User
edited July 2020 in General Discussion (PC)
Hello.

From mod 5-6 till mod 16 we had tons of protection buffs so all team was just immune to damage.
From mod 16 till mod 19 we had 100% hp shields so all team just does not lose health in most of situations.

And after fix of all of these broken things we see a lot of complaints about this fix. But wait. Put your head out of this game and go look how healing in all other mmos works. It works exactly how it works in NWO after healing nerf in m19. And it is fine for everyone.

I understand that after 6-7 years of immortality 99% of dds are lazy and don't understand even the basics of how dd should act without op immune buffs or 100% shields.

No it is not flaming just let me to list few things and you will find out that you see them in 99% of your PvE runs:
1) 99% of NWO dds rush forward before tank
2) 99% of NWO dds start dealing damage before tank used his aggro skills
3) 99% of NWO dds don't dodge red zones/aoes/strong hits
4) 99% of NWO dds stay near tank so they take damage from aoe


Why they do all this? Because they had 6 years of op protection when you just was not able to die no matter what you do.
Why in other mmos dds don't do this? Because they have normal mechanics of healing and team protection. And they never ever had such broken things that we had for years.

So I very very hope that developers will not bring back 100% health shields etc. And if you have troubles with taking high damage on your dd then first thing you have to understand is that you as dd must not take damage at all. It is job of your tank and let him do it.

Here are some evident for all other mmos things but surprisingly not trivial for NWO dds:
1) DO NOT rush before tank!!
2) DO NOT start dealing damage before tank used his aggro skills
3) dodge red zones/aoes/strong hits
4) DO NOT stay near tank to don't take damage from aoe

Check that you do all points of this list and you will find out that healers have enough healing in m19. Because 90% of your deaths are your own mistakes in positioning. You are not immortal terminator you are squishy dd with high damage. Don't forget this.

____
Ps: and if your tank dies without 100% hp shields then you just have bad tank.
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Post edited by dolrey on
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Comments

  • carloswartune#5709
    carloswartune#5709 Member Posts: 243 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    dolrey said:


    And after fix of all of these broken things we see a lot of complaints about this fix. But wait. Put your head out of this game and go look how healing in all other mmos works. It works exactly how it works in NWO after healing nerf in m19. And it is fine for everyone.

    Oh really?

    Because I didn't know other MMOs had this terrible single ally targeting system NW has.

    I also didn't know that, in other MMOs, the AoE heals like Bastion of Health were more efficient to heal a single person than the mechanics designed to heal a single person (like Tab).

    I also didn't know that endgame dungeons and trials like IC and ToMM could easily be run without any healer at all in the same expansion they were released in other MMOs. I could swear this was a "NW exclusive".

    I also didn't know that in other MMOs the healer does absolutely nothing except casting useless at-wills when no healing is needed, because even basic resource management was deemed "to difficult".

    It seems the MMO genre really is in a bad state, huh? At least for healers.
  • shugensha
    shugensha Member Posts: 191 Arc User
    Just to know, do you play healer? And if you do, are you BiS?
    I do play healer and i am not BiS.

    In other MMOs the game usually goes slow and the healers have more than just 7 powers (like 20+ in some), which can use when they want and not worry thanks to mana potions. And even have powers to REVIVE team members. And even can target allies with only clicking on their portrait.

    NW is a fast action game, with NOTHING like that.

    1) Even if the dps wait for the tank and avoid the red, there are aoe dmgs that are invisible in a fight against mobs, bosses or phases.

    2) There are bugs that won't let you see some red floors or if the person had lag for a moment, can get nearly one shoted. Or make the boss ignore the aggro of the tank and start attacking others.

    3) Even with a good team, human errors happen and at those times, aoe heals are bad cuz you need to spam them.
    Lets take Soulweaver as example here:
    Suppouse its worm, second phase and for the cc of the robots 4 or 5 rocks made it to the center. I use my daily and then Soulstorm (there goes 220 soulweave), the heal can't keep with the shocks, the robots and the falling stones, so i spam revitalize (aoe with less effectiveness the more ppl). I keep them alive the basic charges but now i need to figure out how to keep them alive the rest even if they use hpstones. They will die. After the first soulstorm i got down to 780 soulweave and need to use Revitalize (100 soulweave) for 4-5 extra charges of 3-4 hits each cuz its a "fast heal" and not over time. Can't keep up cuz i can't heal them well nor have an alternative to fast restore soulweave as IN OTHER MMOS.

    4) Aoe healing is the only "reliable" power you have most of the times due that single targeting here is bad. In other MMOs you just click the portrait and thats it.

    5) In other MMOs healers have extra effects with their heals, like buffs. Here, no (at least soulweaver).

    I can agree that the buffs and blue bars needed to go, i can even agree that a nerf was needed. But i will not agree that this was the nerf we needed nor that NW is the SAME as other MMOs. And i know that cuz i played other before comming here and was searching for someone like this when i gor tired of getting rejected for ToMM just cuz i was a soulweaver.
    The meta it's just a guideline. And guidelines are boring.

    Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
    Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour

  • shugensha
    shugensha Member Posts: 191 Arc User
    In that case i congratulate you for having such a good team with you, specially the healer that could adapt so fast if its not BiS. Or your luck for pugs.

    As i said, i agree with getting rid of the blue bars, but bring everyone down when they only needed to reduce the mag of the shield its not a solution. Most healers are starters or were getting enough stats to complete some elite dungs and trials with less struggle. While there are some that were already good enough to complete IC and ToMM with none to less problems, the rest (mayority) got screw by this.
    I repeat, the nerf was necesary, but not of this magnitude. 2 days before the nerf, the changes they did and the rework of the warlock were good enough to keep a party carefull of red areas and everything else.
    They made this nerf to "reduce" the gap between the OP, DC and SW.. But actually made it worst.
    Every healer works different, everyone has different kits.. The nerf was made in general and not taking into account the kits.
    As i saw, the only thing in common every healer has is the at-will with 250-275 mag.
    If we at least could have our bar visible as the tanks, it would be helpfull.

    And with all my respect (and trust me, i don't mean to offend), a non healer saying this kind of things its like if tanks get heavy nerfed and a non tank say "pff, all you gotta do is press shift".


    A little humor just in case my last line was taken bad:
    I ran with this barbi and 3 of his guild in a pug Tong. Dude kept going ahead (and i could easily catch him to help him), and get recked every single time. When we got to Orcus, he kept going ahead but this time i follow him and watched him die:
    Barbie: Why the *censored* didn't you heal me?
    Me: Have potions or stones?
    B: Yes.
    M: Use them.
    B: Your job as healer is keep me alive so i don't use them!
    M: My job as healer is keep alive the team in fights, bosses and sometimes fix errors, your ego for top paingiver doesn't enter there, and less if you don't respect your team.
    The only one that supported me there was the tank (i like tanks cuz they understand the preasure), but either way i got kicked after the 15 min lol.
    The meta it's just a guideline. And guidelines are boring.

    Soulweaver: The Lovely Red
    Minstrel: The Rose Troubadour

  • clericalist
    clericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 595 Arc User
    Since most of my PUGs were when I was playing playing cleric I was playing normal mode, and thus this change is honestly not a big problem, people need to get a grip and accept the fact that the last few mods were not good game design nor were they enjoyable game play.

    The introduction of the Paladin was arguably the worst thing to hit this game, from the early days where it would grant the entire party full immunity to the absurd temp hit points, this made creating challenging and balanced dungeons close to impossible.
  • rikitaki
    rikitaki Member Posts: 806 Arc User
    dolrey said:


    1. Yes there are bugs with red zones but their cast time is always same so after taking one unexpected hit in the next time you know when to dodge. Moreover as dd (who supposed to roll in after tank get aggro) you will never see monsters casting aoe in your face.
    Sorry for a personal attack, but you blatantly begged for it: Have you recently been stuck by a falling stalactite? =)
    dolrey said:


    What about other mmos.. Yes, probably bearded very old mmo are much much slower. But relatively new ones who launched about 6 or less years ago have high dynamic of combat too.
    If any NEW mmo comes with the mixture NW has now, noone will play a healer there. You see, players need to learn their role somewhere while gearing up. ATM we have two types of situation out there: absolutely no use for a healer whatsoever versus you need a pretty high-end one.
    dolrey said:


    Nerf of healing is mostly nerf of dds so they should no longer do things that they did (I listed it in the main post). What about exactly healing. It is still needed and healers are still needed.

    Well, most healers now cannot beat a healing potion, let alone the healthstone. So,... no. 90 % of healers in 95 % of content are not needed at all. They are a liability taking a DPS spot.
    dolrey said:


    If you think that role of healing overall is underperforming then I would like to see health stones greatly nerfed or deleted from the game. So no one will be able to instantly heal themselves every 18 seconds 100% of healts. And you will see how healers will be top 1 "must have" class in every team.

    Nope. Removal of those items will not make healers desirable, just will split the content into two categories: healer not needed/unplayable for everyone. ATM no healer can carry a party without potions and healt stones in a rough content.
  • sandukutupu
    sandukutupu Member Posts: 2,284 Arc User
    @dolrey I get it, but I wasn't about to say it. Cryptic just kicked the crutches out from under the player base. So they should expect some negative feedback. Eventually the fallout will settle, maybe in 6 months to a year? Who knows, I came back into the game and notice a bit more "deaths" than I normally do. Then I saw they cut the healing back. No big whoop to me either. But you @dolrey have my respect, even if you lost the majority vote. :wink:

    To all the rest of you, grow up, it is just a game. You can either cry in your beer or dance with the hustler. Have fun! <3
    wb-cenders.gif
  • rev#7881
    rev#7881 Member Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    dolrey said:



    No, I am not a healer

    enough said, before you even think of talking about something, play it... that's the only way to actual know what you are talking about don't listen to others
  • mano75
    mano75 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1 Arc User
    maybe you devs add unique features for the 3 healer classes. for example
    - a mark against one shot, in case of one shot the mark will be consumed and protects 10% of the players hp
    - protection against fire lets say 30-50%
    - protection against stuns
    that would give each healer an unique feature and a the possibility to be useful for the group
  • vastano#2343
    vastano#2343 Member Posts: 169 Arc User
    dolrey said:

    Some basic errors in your OP:

    1) You're talking from your own perspective as a tank, and exaggerating wildly the behaviours you mention. Maybe "just let your tank do everything" works for you, maybe you're a great tank. Maybe your teams behave the way you say they do ("99% always do X"). Your experience isn't the game experience. There are lots of inadequate tanks, lots of situations where the DPS has to pour on as much damage as they can, lots of situations where a healer has to heal 2-3 people quickly who aren't conveniently grouped for AoEs. If the game doesn't support these situations, it's a case of bad game design, not a case "Healing is fine, just let your tank fix it all".

    2) You're making the same design mistake that many game companies make. "If we make healing necessary, then players will be forced to play them!". You don't get players into a class by making it a painful-but-required role. You get players into a class by making it interesting and fun to play, and then making sure the role is needed. That's about balancing the flow of combat and matching player powers and targeting to the needs of the game, not tossing in one OP ability and one killer threat to balance the OP ability, then every 2 years changing meta to some new imbalance. Cryptic is just flailing around here addressing one situation at a time rather than balancing the situation.

    3) You can't assume all teams are going to have a good tank, or a good healer, and frankly it's a roadblock the game doesn't need to create content that needs balanced parties. Instead of repetitive mechanics that require "solution 24-B" each time, Cryptic needs to have more flexibility in the way challenges can be completed. Failing that, if they require balanced parties, then the tanks and healers need to be as effective and interesting at their role as the DPS are.
    Well if your team do mistakes then it should pay for these mistakes.This is how games works: if you play good you win but if you play bad you lose. Isn't it normal? While you want to say that if somebody play bad then he still should win.

    If somebody play bad he should improve his playstyle and fix his mistakes. And it is normal to have fails till you did this.

    I understand that a lot of people are in shock now because for 6 years their honestly not so good playing still has been causing wins. But in one moment after launch of m19 they started to lose if they continuing doing mistakes.

    So I don't see anything wrong here. Play good if you want to win otherwise you lose that is all.
    wow i thought i had left the elitist pr**s behind when i left ddo
    you cant learn untill you do the content
    you cant learn watching from the door or being kicked
    with no self healing and no healers the only people who can do the hard dungeons are the elitists
    those same people have all the goodies they dont bung $ or £ at the game
    those of us that are still trying to be able to do the likes of TOMM (never been there) tic (refuse to go there untill my dps is up)
    we are the kind of people who this hurts the most we are also the people who have less to lose when we leave game
    we are also the kind of people who pay the devs wages without us the game dies

  • winteranesti
    winteranesti Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    dolrey said:

    Heads up guys, healer abuse is back! LOL I was verbally abused for letting a DPS die. I said "Run ahead, then your dead" . It was a barbarian who ran ahead of the tank and was killed. Then I was vote kicked out.. They all agreed its my fault..healers must keep party alive..Oh good times for us all for sure.
    You just have to say to your teammates that they have to play carefully because broken defencive buffs are gone.

    Most players do not understand or realize that changes that have been made..even when I still tell the team this...I am told by players it will still be my fault. This is the New Neverwinter. *cringe*

    Be prepared ladies and gentlemen..this is the new normal of Neverwinter. Expect this out of your pug runs as a healer. No matter how many times I say its a problem, seeing is believing.


  • sandukutupu
    sandukutupu Member Posts: 2,284 Arc User
    edited July 2020

    Heads up guys, healer abuse is back! LOL I was verbally abused for letting a DPS die. I said "Run ahead, then your dead" . It was a barbarian who ran ahead of the tank and was killed. Then I was vote kicked out.. They all agreed its my fault..healers must keep party alive..Oh good times for us all for sure.

    First I want to tell you, I never did this to get the healer kicked, but this was a joke I played in Guild Wars back in the day...
    I would strip down to my underwear and toss on a fashion costume prior to running the dungeon and then I would chide the healer for not keeping me alive. Everyone including the healer got a laugh out of it when they finally figured it out. Unfortunately here they don't seem to share that sense of humor in this game.


    :lol:
    wb-cenders.gif
  • zimxero#8085
    zimxero#8085 Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    A
    dolrey said:


    1) 99% of NWO dds rush forward before tank
    2) 99% of NWO dds start dealing damage before tank used his aggro skills
    3) 99% of NWO dds don't dodge red zones/aoes/strong hits
    4) 99% of NWO dds stay near tank so they take damage from aoe.

    99.9% of DPS players are unable to identify whether an ally is a tank, healer, or another DPS. Identifying roles visally seems like a great starting point.