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[PC][Ratings][Castle Ravenloft][CR] Broken Ratings way above 13,000 mark!

c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
edited July 3 in Bug Reports (PC)
Ratings in Castle Ravenloft are higher than 13,000.

Pictures in 2nd post

They are between 45,000 and 50,000 based on my data. The exact number is hard to pinpoint in a few hours or testing.

There are two hard caps represented for the players and for enemies.

Even though ratings for Players are hitting 50% mark once it is 13,000 ratings above the highest point attainable by the Players (and Players alone), which results in having 63,000 rating to cap a 50% mark for variety of Powers / Dungeon itself and Enemies themselves still have higher ratings than what is initially represented in the Queue for the said Dungeon.

This means that Players need above 45,000 ratings to actually meet the real Cap that enemies have in Castle Ravenloft, but are currently unable to do so as Caps for Players are hardcapped @ 13,000 mark and visually + systematically represented as 50% chance mark.

As far as I know and had will to test, this is the only dungeon where said stuff happen and the only dungeon where Player hardcaps on ratings simply do not meet enemy rating caps.

This is why enemies in CR will hit harder and stronger than enemies with similar ratings in other dungeons.


TL:DR : Enemies in CR have unreachable rating cap, and players are prevented from reaching it by default design.


--------------------

How did I find this out?

I used Storm Spell feature to find out the actual Caps of enemies and their ratings were in said Dungeon.
Since Storm Spell POST MOD 16 isn't WAI as an Inherited power that critically strikes by default design, we can achieve 100% of Critical Chance (that should be there in the first place) once we reach enemy rating cap.

In other words, I used a poorly designed feature power in order to bypass an induced hard cap on powers across the board because the flaw that exists in Storm Spell allows me to see Critical Chance rolls. Since Storm Spell is inherited proc, its representation of Critical Strike can be manipulated with Critical Chance where it works like a clockwork.

The WAI Storm Spell should work is like this:

a) Encounter or At-Will Critically Strike
b) 20% chance for Storm Spell to Activate
c) Storm Spell Activates and does Critical Damage as an Inherited proc.
d) ACT shows that Storm Spell hit a Critical Strike 100% of times at a 20% chance to proc.

The NON-WAI Storm Spell is working like this now:

a) Encounter or At-Will Critically Strike
b) 20% chance for Storm Spell to Activate
c) Storm Spell Rolls to check if Critical Strike or not.
d) ACT shows that Storm Spell has a chance to Critically Strike based on whether a player reaches out enemy rating caps or not.

I used part c) of NON-WAI Storm Spell feature power in order to measure the actual ratings of enemies in the Castle Ravenloft dungeon.

--------------------

This is how I know that Players can receive hardcaps on powers EVEN though enemies have far higher caps than what is initially shown. In other words, we as Players are debuffed twice in a row with a system like this because we don't even have a chance to actually meet the actual caps in given dungeon.

I'm not saying CR is hard or anything alike, however this design is flawed and shouldn't be encouraged because it is misleading.

An explanation of why CR is a special case in terms of enemy's extremely high ratings and player-wise manageable ratings should be explained or fixed by developers.


--------------------

Current CR ratings:
90k+ Arpen
90k+ Crit
90k+ Acc
90k+ Def
140k+ CA

What you can reach as a player before you hit a cap:
63k Arpen
63k Crit
63k Acc
63k Def
113k CA

Enemies will STILL hit you as if you do not have maxed out your Defense by their Standardized attacking pattern. By this system's design, you, a Player, will constantly lack around 27k+ defense that you can never achieve because of a hardcap induced by a faulty systematic design.
Post edited by c1k4ml3kc3 on
True Neutral

Comments

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,250 Arc User
    I am guessing this a hold over from pre Mod 16, where you needed 100% Resistance Ignored (ArmorPen) to damage the bosses in cutscene ravenloft.

    It might be worth it to check enemy ratings in Tomb of the Nine Gods.

    Specifically check if enemy counter stats is in the 75,000-85,000 range (ie, you need 85,000 ArmorPen to deal normal damage). 85% Resistance Resistance Ignored was the ArmorPen cap for TONG from back in Mod 12.

    Also, I could have sworn a bug like this was reported multiple times in the past.

    Maybe something screwed up with internal builds.

  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    edited July 3
    https://imgur.com/a/1pTxkAU

    In these runs I've tried to maintain the use of Ray of Frost and have been fighting only first three groups of mobs, right before the sisters. I figure that it would give enough of a sample to acknowledge the difference between the mismatched player caps and enemy ratings.

    ===================================


    ===================================
    ===================================


    ===================================
    ===================================


    ===================================

    Please note that in 3rd run I took, I intentionally went below the Cap for Accuracy on the Player Cap side.
    This Cap was held at 50.000 rating, so 13.000 lower than what was needed to reach 50% mark for this dungeon, which data shows at 50% less effectiveness on the last screenshot (halved damage).
    This is just to show that there are, in fact, Hard Caps on Players that work separately from the actual Enemy Ratings.


    -----------------

    As I mentioned earlier, Storm Spell is either 0% or 100% Crit. This has been like this since the start of Neverwinter Online.
    Storm Spell currently behaves as a separate power because it rolls against Enemy's Crit Avoidance.
    It makes no sense that an inherited Proc has to additionally roll for the 3rd time.


    50% Encounter
    20% Activation
    Roll against Critical Avoidance to check if a Crit or Not.

    Rolling against Critical Avoidance of Enemy Rating shouldn't be a thing. But, we can find a good use for it in order to figure out the actual enemy ratings and point out severe bugs in the system. I hope you can appreciate just how special and unique this revelation and use of a bugged power is in relation to finding out other & more severe bugs in the system itself.

    Thanks!
    True Neutral
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    edited July 3
    rjc9000 said:

    I am guessing this a hold over from pre Mod 16, where you needed 100% Resistance Ignored (ArmorPen) to damage the bosses in cutscene ravenloft.

    It might be worth it to check enemy ratings in Tomb of the Nine Gods.

    Specifically check if enemy counter stats is in the 75,000-85,000 range (ie, you need 85,000 ArmorPen to deal normal damage). 85% Resistance Resistance Ignored was the ArmorPen cap for TONG from back in Mod 12.

    Also, I could have sworn a bug like this was reported multiple times in the past.

    Maybe something screwed up with internal builds.

    I've checked Tomb of the Nine Gods and it seems that it suffers from similar problem to that of Castle Ravenloft.

    There seems to be two caps. 1st is Player-side. 2nd is Enemy-side.

    Player-side caps are not allowing 50% cap mark to overlap past a specific rating. This rating is used to calculate hit or miss ratio of the powers. In a way, this works as intended, but it doesn't specifically say that we have, in fact, reached a point where enemy's real ratings/caps are.

    However, enemy ratings are actually way higher than what we are led to believe based on Queue information. Similarly to how it is in Castle Ravenloft, enemy ratings are way above their Queue explained cap (12,000) in Tomb of the Nine Gods. You will need high 100k stat caps in order to actually combat it, but in reality the system denies you this possibility.

    What I'm saying, based on this, is that there are two systems

    1 system are enemy's real ratings and 2nd system are player ratings. The player ratings can't match enemy's real ratings, only those that system allows them to match based on system's limitation that is easily visible in Queue list.

    In other words, if System didn't have such a limitation and player was able to reach 100k+ ratings for Tomb of the Nine Gods, it would've been easier than slaying Redcaps in Sharandar.

    There are two systems, or rather two calls, instead of one that regulates it all. In a way, stats are misleading but even at that point stats are limited so you do not be too OP in a dungeon (basically you could solo it with 100k+ stats if there was no a limitation)

    Luckily, this Limitation is respecting Accuracy flawlessly which is a good thing.


    We are still misled on Enemy's REAL ratings, which are in high 45k+ up to 50k.
    True Neutral
  • ayleen#2040 ayleen Member Posts: 110 Arc User

    The listing on queues that says "Enemy Ratings:" is the enemy ratings, not the level you need to negate their ratings. For most ratings that is 50k above the listed rating. So if it says enemy ratings 13k, you'd need 63k to fully negate a given critter stat. Combat Advantage caps out higher than the other ratings.

    I'm sorry, I had to log in just to express my thoughts about it :) Dear @noworries#8859 , we very well know that we need to add this 50k base to enemy ratings to find out caps required for content. If you read carefully what they wrote, you might notice that it is actually different thing - enemy ratings seem to be higher in reality than those stated in queue info and yet players are hard capped so they cannot overcome enemy ratings. Now let me say from my side: my arpen that is capped for Zariel in unscaled content drops to around 70k in CR. I should be able to easily damage critters in CR but nope, hard time doing this so there is something wrong. Also my defense as dps is 89k unscaled, goes way above required cap for CR when scaled down and still I get nearly one shot by mobs. Thoughts on this?



  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,279 Arc User
    edited July 8
    the dino in merchant princes folly seems another example of this. even when he is knocked over he's only taking like 150-500 dmg on a big crit maybe 15k. (from a toon that has the stats for any content currently live) running it with randoms you almost never see gold because of this.
    Post edited by thefiresidecat on


  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,038 Arc User
    edited July 8
    What you are proving is that Storm Spell does not respect the 50% cap on crit. It also seems like it is not subtracting the mob rating from your crit value before rolling. Assuming Storm Spell is rolling on your unmodified crit stat with no 50% cap your crit rate on Storm Spell is increasing more or less as it should.

    Since Storm Spell is a proc it does not necessarily follow the primary attack damage calculations and could very well have its own code for calculating crit probabilities.

    What you are proving is that there is something odd with the crit calculations for the Storm Spell proc, but you cannot transfer that argument to the main damage attacks.

    Since Storm Spell is such a small part of the total Wizard damage picture this feature is not really exploitable.

    If the devs fix this Wizard damage will go even further down, so thank you for nerfing us :)
  • merik1999merik1999 Member Posts: 117 Arc User
    why complain? the Dev's will not change anything. They are like the Florida Governor. Everything is fine. No Worries
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    edited July 8

    What you are proving is that Storm Spell does not respect the 50% cap on crit.

    Storm Spell is an Inherted proc, meaning that it inherits the feature of a power that previously strike. Since this can only happen on Critical Strikes, that means that Storm Spell critically strikes.

    An inherited proc shouldn't, in any way or form, roll against enemy ratings again because the preceding power did that already. This is, actually, very easy to understand.

    Storm Spell as a feature that activates on a critical strike needn't respect 50% cap as the roll for it already happened. It is only a question of whether Storm Spell with Critically Strike or no. In other words

    0% Critical Strike
    100% Critical Strike

    The mere fact I'd have to max out my Critical Strike ratings in order for Storm Spell to function normally is a problem in itself, especially for the future content where I might not achieve 100% critical chance for whatever reason.

    That means that Developers should find a solution for Storm Spell to Critically Strike each time within the new system, because this only became a problem once M16 hit us.


    Since Storm Spell is a proc it does not necessarily follow the primary attack damage calculations and could very well have its own code for calculating crit probabilities.

    It is evident that Storm Spell, in this regards, calculates its own probabilities (rolls), which is a big no no. In case Storm Spell does this by default and in case it is WAI, I'd like for it to behave like other powers behave, too, and get additional damage and proc additional things. So far this is not the case and we are stuck in the middle ground.

    What you are proving is that there is something odd with the crit calculations for the Storm Spell proc, but you cannot transfer that argument to the main damage attacks.

    For the more observant folk, this sentence summarizes the concept of this topic perfectly:

    "Enemy ratings seem to be higher in reality than those stated in queue info and yet players are hard capped so they cannot overcome enemy ratings"

    Since Storm Spell is such a small part of the total Wizard damage picture this feature is not really exploitable.

    Exploitable? Lol! I'm asking for a proper fix so that we get Storm Spell to I/O concept on Encounter/At-Will/Daily's probability, rather than (critchance)probability on top of (20%activation)probability on top of (critchance)probability. Why don't you reread the topic again? We needn't 2x (critchance) rolls. Only 1 and only with Encounter/At-will/Daily. The way it is right now, Wizard ALREADY is nerfed by a poor design.

    If the devs fix this Wizard damage will go even further down, so thank you for nerfing us :)

    If the devs want to fix this, they will make it so that Storm Spell Critically hits 100% of times without needing to Critically Cap way beyond enemy ratings.
    In other words, if there is a 6% probability that a Wizard encounter will critically strike, then followed by a 20% chance for a Storm Spell to activate, it should Critically Strike 100% of time even with Encounter's 6% probability. Otherwise, it is useless unless you cap Critical Strike which in most content is way over the actually enemy ratings, as data clearly shows.

    I also think that your fears are miscalculated due to a fact that it really wouldn't make any sense whether Developers nerf Wizards or not as pretty much all their changes in the past have left each and every Wizard wondering about the very existence more than once. But I like that you are trying to say "Hey, if they nerf us I blame you" lol

    True Neutral
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    edited July 8

    The listing on queues that says "Enemy Ratings:" is the enemy ratings, not the level you need to negate their ratings. For most ratings that is 50k above the listed rating. So if it says enemy ratings 13k, you'd need 63k to fully negate a given critter stat. Combat Advantage caps out higher than the other ratings.

    Hello,

    The way Storm Spell functions now allows us to see the real enemy ratings beyond the player-induced cap ratings. We know now that there are, in fact, two different ratings. One that hard-caps players and other that hard-caps enemies.
    In those two above-mentioned dungeons, data shows that Storm Spell was the only power that managed to find a bridge between the two ratings.

    This is both excellent finding for the player-base, but also excellent chance to report a problem with Storm Spell that shouldn't behave this way because it is an inherited proc.

    Currently, activation of Storm spell asks for TWO separate Critical Chance calls from Client to Server, rather than ONE.

    In other words, if Storm Spell doesn't have necessary fuel in Critical Chance tree that has to cap with enemy ratings that are hard to cap for most players, we end up with a weak Storm Spell feature. We do not get it to critically strike with 13k Ratings (63). We need to get to the point where it is 50k+ rating so that it finally works normally again. This is a problem.

    Storm Spell goes well beyond those restrictions and works with enemy's true ratings, rather than the ones shown in Queue.

    This makes Storm Spell WEAK in comparison as we need to work extra in order to achieve normal functionality.
    Post edited by c1k4ml3kc3 on
    True Neutral
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,192 Arc User
    edited July 9
    merik1999 said:

    why complain? the Dev's will not change anything. They are like the Florida Governor. Everything is fine. No Worries


    WHY this topic?
    I don't think it's a complain per se, rather trying to open some eyes on the issue we got here. Cut it in its roots before it becomes a problem in a year or two from now. Also to spread the good word.

    Furthermore, for the sake of posterity, in case future issues occur at a similar rate, there will be this report and a message left. People might be quicker to solve an issue in the future if they find info like this.


    StormSpell related?
    Storm Spell should always show 100% crit in ACT due to the way the power works. Right now it's not behaving like this and it is weaker in scaled content where enemies have ratings way beyond player-caps. In other words, Storm Spell is weak in scaled content and should be fixed to be strong in scaled content.


    I can bet good money that recent Ras Nsi's ratings have been roaming free, showing the true ratings that enemies do have in such a dungeon.

    The way I see it, there are at least three layers of ratings going on right now, and of course it makes problems down the road.

    - Player hardcap ratings (13k CR, 12k TONG) - These are ratings that your powers can use effectively. They aren't real enemy ratings. Storm Spell doesn't play by these rules.

    - Enemy ratings (~50k CR, ~49k TONG) - These are the real enemy ratings that most of your powers will never be able to hit. Storm Spell plays by these rules. Storm Spell needs you to hit 100.000 crit in CR in order to work normally.

    - Scaling - Everyone hates scaling. Why is LoMM scaled when loot sucks? I don't understand why do I need to be scaled in LoMM, it's not that old of a dungeon tbh.
    True Neutral
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