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Official M19: Healing Adjustments

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  • dominious12dominious12 Member Posts: 90 Arc User

    1. Some players in this thread were concerned about the viability of playing this single target healing paradigm on Console. After all, console players couldn't bind keys to heal the tanks to bypass the absolute terrible targeting system this game has. I'd like to inform these players that the developers fixed this on the last patch: they removed the "target" command. Now it's impossible to bind a key to heal the tank on PC too. Thank you Cryptic for being so inclusive and for making sure everyone gets HAMSTERed in the HAMSTER equally by your terrible targeting system.

    If it makes you feel any better, there is no reason for PC players to use the target bindings anymore. The stealth changes to healing on preview reduced the magnitude and increased the cost of the healing at-wills to the point that they're quite inefficient. As they currently are I wouldn't consider using them anyway.
  • leftbearleftbear Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    Bug: Targeted heals ( like the at-will heal and the cure heal) get blocked by the augment. i.e. you often get a red error msg saying #petname cannot be healed by this spell. or something close to that anyway.


    Paladin healer Suggestions

    Revert Critical Touch back to triggering on any at-will use.

    Divine Vessel really needs some work, currently you have to empty your Divinity pool to use it. This is a non starter to use it you either have to purposely empty your divinity in which case your probably dead 12 seconds later or your actually planning (by selecting the feat) to fail. Its basically an insurance policy and guess what no one ever really wants to use one because it means bad things are happening. So make it triggerable like the Cleric one or make it refill your divinity pool half way or something that doesn't leave you completely vulnerable. If you give us options that are useful and powerful maybe we wont want to be a hit point battery.

    ps. I would rather you think up some completely new utility to give to Paladins than leave us with a tiny shield that nobody finds useful. If I have one complaint with mod 16 changes and now mod 19 changes is nothing is ever done in small measures.




  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    leftbear said:

    If I have one complaint with mod 16 changes and now mod 19 changes is nothing is ever done in small measures.

    This.

    Since the patch of yesterday, 100% of the healers on preview server (well the sample I asked, one of each class) are pissed off, with a high risk of leaving the game. This additional nerf is a backstab.
    The paladins feel useless, the warlocks feel useless, DCs are meh.

    Imagine the shock when the module is going to be live: endgame paladins are going to see their shields going from full bar to a miserable bar (100k), sw dots not able to overcome any dot, impossible healing burst.
    This in addition to the dull tab and at-will gameplay that is now similar between all healer classes, with no particularities.

    At least this last patch must be reverted. You are jeopardizing the health of the game when you touch support classes that much. Healers should be encouraged to stay in the game with a satisfying and rewarding gameplay.


    What do you want us to do? to take SH boon optimizing the healing from the potions?? For sure potions now do better but we cannot spam them either...
  • rocketwaltz#3822 rocketwaltz Member Posts: 6 Arc User

    Whilst I agree that Paladins needed an adjustment I do not believe that the adjustment that has been done here is the correct one, as it undermines the unique identity of the role in the process of trying to "fix" it. In my opinion what should have instead been done is the following:

    1. Drastically reduce the values of Paladins heals (not their shields), to the point where if hitpoints are missing, it is divinity inefficient for them to try to restore them.
    2. Leave the shield values as is.
    3. Add a "Decay" to shields like I proposed earlier in the thread. After 1 second shields naturally start to degenerate over time at a rate of 20% of the initial total lost per second, falling off entirely after 5 seconds.

    What this does is it preserves the identity of the Paladin, while at the same time introducing a skill gap to playing them and "reducing" their overall effectiveness as a whole as they are not able to solo heal trials.

    I like the idea of the shield decay, however, I don't think that'd be the correct way to implement it. Obviously, shields are good because they can stop large hits that a normal dps cannot survive, even at max hp. If Cleric and Warlock don't have a way to give shields, than they are practically guaranteed to be slightly subpar.

    To keep the identity of the classes, I think a better way to balance out the healers is to give Cleric some way to shield (maybe let however much the cleric overheals be a shield but put a cap on it, like a max shield of 50%?) but let it decay quickly like what you stated. That way, Cleric would still feel like a reactionary healer who still has to actively heal incoming attacks, while Paladin has a slightly different role of giving a long-lasting shield that requires less attention. I'm not quite sure about what you'd do to Warlock though, as I haven't played Warlock before. Please take my input with a grain of salt though, I'm not a veteran by any means, and I just had an idea I'd like to share.
  • rocketwaltz#3822 rocketwaltz Member Posts: 6 Arc User

    Whilst I agree that Paladins needed an adjustment I do not believe that the adjustment that has been done here is the correct one, as it undermines the unique identity of the role in the process of trying to "fix" it. In my opinion what should have instead been done is the following:

    1. Drastically reduce the values of Paladins heals (not their shields), to the point where if hitpoints are missing, it is divinity inefficient for them to try to restore them.
    2. Leave the shield values as is.
    3. Add a "Decay" to shields like I proposed earlier in the thread. After 1 second shields naturally start to degenerate over time at a rate of 20% of the initial total lost per second, falling off entirely after 5 seconds.

    What this does is it preserves the identity of the Paladin, while at the same time introducing a skill gap to playing them and "reducing" their overall effectiveness as a whole as they are not able to solo heal trials.

    I like the idea of shield decay. However, I don't quite think that's how it should be implemented.

    The major problem is that, obviously, shields are really good. Shields can prevent people from dying even if they would've died at max hp. If Cleric and Warlock don't have shields, than they are guaranteed to be subpar options compared to Paladin.

    I think the better way to balance out the healers is to give Cleric some kind of shield (maybe through overheals, which could cap out at 50%?), but make that shield decay quickly, so the identity of Cleric as a more reactionary healer that has to be more active than a Paladin, who just gives a long-lasting shield, and doesn't have to be as reactive. That way, the identity of the classes are still somewhat intact, I hope.

    Not quite sure on what to do for Warlock since I haven't played Warlock yet.

    Take my opinion/suggestion with a grain of salt though. I'm a relatively new player and this is just my 2 cents on how healing should be balanced, and it is probably not the most well-thought out idea.
  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 545 Arc User
    Cleric
    When battle prayer is feated, it should decrease the cost of light of divinity by 50 so that it consumes 70 divinity, but instead it increases it further and costs 150 magnitude.

    Again, I believe the feat empowered soothe is useless. With the reworked mechanics, no one wants to spend 40 divinity on that at will, unless the feat is upgraded too and give it 0 divinity consume, otherwise i don't see how this would be a decent choice compared to repeated blesssings.

    You reduced the healing potency of cleansing light and increased the divinity cost, it is too much, leaving it at 100 is fair enough.

    You also increased the cost for astral shield, why? the divinity regeneration is hardly efficient now and what we get is an increase of our divinity consumptions.




  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    Without meaning to be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, but just so you know Devs, this is your equivalent of a prolonged public suicide.

    You're trying to run this game into the ground it tunnels right down to the earth's core. You need some incentive to run content like this and there is none.

    Repeat after me: DPS shouldn't have to tank.
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    Hello there!
    Latest patch seems to go imho against one of purpose of changes, that was making "skills" more relevant than gear. Why? Reducing magnitudes and divininty cost incourage spamming - anything but skill related - makes timing and divinity management way less relevant - again less skills involved because why should I care about those if it is easier spam spells - and gear (power/crit, outgoing healing) more relevant, because only at high level it might be able to get an acceptable level of burst heals. On an additional note, the changes impact the most shielding and healing over time spells, because they heavily rely on quality rather than quantity, also current level of at-wills it is not strong enough to keep tanks alive (again, gear/consumables > skills), is that intended?
    Here a couple of ideas that might help balancing process keeping the changes in line with the original purpose:
    - Keep last patch changes for burst heals only (ie. bastion/divine touch), that might help this skills having a spot in rotation in some cases, Shielding and HoT spells should work the same as before latest patch;
    - Rework shields: Current shields works this way: "Raise a Divine/Infernal Barrier that absorbs damage equal to the amount of hit points healed (half for soulweaver)". The flaw in the process is you receive an heal AND a shielding effect. Making the shield working on overheals or, even better, separating pure shielding from pure healing powers, providing each class the chance to choose a different path, could help giving each class/spell a function that could serve a purpose and synergise with other ones.

    Thank you for reading, have a nice day!
  • roku#3001 roku Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    Hello,
    I've read a lot of this thread before posting anything, but I apologize if this is repetitive and not additive. I am also not on preview server, but my thoughts I hope will be helpful:

    "Healing" seems to mean two different things - removing damage that has occurred and preventing damage that will occur.

    One shot death cannot be healed, only prevented -- currently OP shield does this (debate on how powerful other places)

    Heavy single shot damage can be healed
    - all 3 healers can do this to some degree, with consensus seemingly saying Warlocks have the most difficult time with this, especially if shatter spark is altered.

    Multiple dot damage can be healed -- with heals over time, or staggered big (aoe?) heals

    How to make each healer unique/useful -

    Pally focus on preventing damage - shields on cooldown, limit/remove big heals
    Cleric focus on big heals - burst heals, revive heals (which can mitigate some of the one shotting post damage vs. shield)
    Warlock focus on hot - and REMOVING dots/negative states - maybe having multiple hots stack/synergy but limit the big burst heals, or a mob debuff/curse that maybe causes DPS/tank damage to also heal the party member as it damages the mob.

    Until you make single target abilities more reliable/hit the mark they are not useful.
    DPS doesn't accidentally hit a party member if they move in front of a damage skill, why should healers not have the same ability?

    More thoughts on DPS vs. heals differences:

    1. In a group of mobs DPS can really hit any one they want (with few exceptions, maybe mimic vs. golem in LoMM as an example), order doesn't matter as much. But in a group of party members the heals MUST target the correct toon, heals get wasted if cast on wrong person at any point in the encounter, but the only way DPS is "wasted" is on the last damage shot that kills/overkills the mob.

    2. Boss fights have one boss (usually). So 1 evil target that 5 or 10 or 15 people focus on. Healers in the same situation have 5 or 10 or 15 targets. Try making a boss fight with 15 bosses that have to be hit in some randomly specific order, as they move around, and have dps that hits any other boss waste the dps skill -- welcome to healing...

    2. DPS area damage isn't shared and reduced based on number of targets, but heals are? So DPS gets to crowd mobs together to maximize damage, but friendlies crowded together both reduce AOE healing AND make it harder (be honest, impossible) to single target heal.

    Thanks for reading, I look forward to the update (and the post update tweaks/balancing that will follow...)
  • roku#3001 roku Member Posts: 5 Arc User

    You guys saying nerf but I was able to shield 75% of the health in latest patvh [sic]...The current TOMM is doable without healers. I am very impressed with latest patch


    So here is a OP admitting that this class is not a healer? This is the problem. This.
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    roku#3001 said:

    You guys saying nerf but I was able to shield 75% of the health in latest patvh [sic]...The current TOMM is doable without healers. I am very impressed with latest patch


    So here is a OP admitting that this class is not a healer? This is the problem. This.
    He is just a troll or maybe daltonian: the 75% "shield" was probably the red part of HP bar, not the blue part :D
    Joke aside, the paladin has never been the best in straight strong healing, cleric was always better at this task.
  • ancientryancientry Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    man they really are pulling healers out of the game. severely horrible game design on this one. might as well cut down classes into three, a dps, a tank, and a heal so that theres no variety in playstyle but at least all classes function. this is severely debilitating and irritating.
  • ancientryancientry Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    anyways still no cleanse for warlock? no updates about the shield stacking? no good changes? i dont want to open preview anymore it makes me severely sad playing heallock
  • foxxy#4211 foxxy Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 545 Arc User
    ancientry said:

    anyways still no cleanse for warlock? no updates about the shield stacking? no good changes? i dont want to open preview anymore it makes me severely sad playing heallock

    They added it to vampric embrace
  • xander#0631 xander Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    rev#7881 said:

    Players- nothing could be worse than mod 16 class changes
    Devs - hold my beer




    PS.: Just kidding to lighten up the mood on this thread

    reality is what most recognize as true
  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited June 2020

    rev#7881 said:

    Players- nothing could be worse than mod 16 class changes
    Devs - hold my beer




    PS.: Just kidding to lighten up the mood on this thread

    yeah i was naive and thought they couldn't do worst, i think these changes were made because of that comment :o
  • shugenshashugensha Member Posts: 127 Arc User
    Soulweaver here, i was checking the last ner---adjustments, and found out that Revitalize (former shatter spark) is wortheless even if you target it to only one person.

    Was changed from 1500 magnitud to 800. If you need to heal one person you could just mark it with tab and heal it for 1000 mag for less Soulweave. And if there is 2 or more ppl, just using Soulstorm (former harrowstorm) will be much better since its 500 mag. And even if you ner--adjust the other powers to make Revitalize usefull, it won't happen. I would recomend to at least make the power give something usefull like a buff or better heal. And no, the feats that interact with it don't make it worth to use in any way, if there is more than one person will get a better shield from (or same heal over time) from Soulstorm, and even if there is one person i just use the Infernal Barrier at-will to give a similar shield if i crit.
    Same goes for Wraith's Shadow, useless before, useless now. Long CD for 6 seconds 5% dmg reduction, in a game that most dmg is 5 to 6 digits.
    And do not make me start about Warlocks Bargain, seriously, why take the heal away? And put the Cleanse in a TARGET power... Really? And why would i kill my Lifespark that can help me keep my team alive? In those 10 seconds my Lifespark can heal 3 times.

    Now, Pillar of Power..... Why? The two best uses i found it is puting it for myself or for the tank in a boss fight. And that only if the team ask me to use it tbh, cuz otherwise i would go semi dps as you requested with those feats and class features.

    The most common build would be something like:
    Daily: Soul Pact and anything else, most prolly a dps one.
    Encounters: Arms of Hadar, BoVa and Soulstorm.
    At-Wills: Infernal Barrier and Eldritch Blast.
    Class Features: Soulbound to keep the team "alive" and then any other Class Feature that isn't from the soulweaver tree.
    Feats: Anything that is dmg based.
    Have a pally shield in the team and only have one Loadout for heals with shields? You are screw, just go with heal overtime and Infernal Barrier, forget about Soul Reconstruction.


    You see that? From every new thing of this class, only three or four are "worth using". And heck, that build was made to keep the class and game enjoyable while being "usefull" for the team.

    I would love to say that i trully understand what are you doing with this changes... But i trully don't.. I don't understan. I know you had youtubers/streamers testing this changes way before you announce them and i find hard to believe that everyone said "you know? they will love this changes". But what makes me really mad is that i can't get what are you trying to do with Soulweavers, we were pretty unique as Templocks and that PoP was good enough. Then we had our little uniqueness with Life Bind with a watered down PoP......... And now this? I honestly can't find the "unique" this time.. Oh, wait.. The lifespark! that works every 3 seconds with a 100 mag heal and a long CD PoP that is just there to fill space with three other powers.

    I don't think you need to put Feypact and Hellpact feats as Class Features, but look into them and make them a better choice.
    I do think and believe that you need to rework the next Class Features:

    Souleater: Seriously, i already said this before but there is no way someone will use it and more in a Mod that has no active way to recover soulweave.
    Swift Command: Why should/would i use it? If im chaneling my heal and you walk away and die, its your fault.
    Borrowed Spirit: Again, even if its a trial i don't see a reason to use it.

    And the feats.. Oh.. My.. God.. Im mad enough that you took life bind away.. but this new ones are just... Sad..

    Essence of Power will always be a better choice cuz is the only way to feel the waiting is less painfull.
    Soul Reclamation doesn't feel like its doing anything but its a better choice than Focused Spark.
    Oversoul is DPS focused unless somehow it affects you heal, in that case i would heal one time and wait until my Soulweave is full again to do a "better" heal again, and even if it doesn't work like that, is way better than Soultheft. With that one, i would need to put myself in useless danger just to get a little amount of Soulweave.
    From the Brink will always be a better choice than Bright Spark. Its better to have that emergencie boost.
    And the lovely Feypact and Hellpact... Tbh, by default the "best" one is Feypact, and not for the pallys or the LAME 50 mag heal over time, but cuz the Lifespak could override the first shield i put if the other person had 99%hp.

    Then again. You see that? There is no choices, no "what if". I know that you only do what the higer ups say but.. Why this? Why this hate for Soulweavers? And i say hate cuz this is in no way an improvement for us, only regresion with every new change. Regresions that we need to figure out how to make it playable and fun while we hope for love that will never come cuz its just stockholm syndrome with a little of Harley Quinn/Joker relationship.
    And it is not in "blue" cuz right now i trully feel no changes will be done until 1 or 2 more mods and already made my mind that plenty of "adjustments" are comming for us.

    So yeah, my dear Soulweavers, right now we are like this. Lets hope for some love.
    Soulweaver: The Lovely Red

  • gaetenw#0920 gaetenw Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    shugensha said:

    Soulweaver here, i was checking the last ner---adjustments, and found out that Revitalize (former shatter spark) is wortheless even if you target it to only one person.

    Was changed from 1500 magnitud to 800. If you need to heal one person you could just mark it with tab and heal it for 1000 mag for less Soulweave. And if there is 2 or more ppl, just using Soulstorm (former harrowstorm) will be much better since its 500 mag. And even if you ner--adjust the other powers to make Revitalize usefull, it won't happen. I would recomend to at least make the power give something usefull like a buff or better heal. And no, the feats that interact with it don't make it worth to use in any way, if there is more than one person will get a better shield from (or same heal over time) from Soulstorm, and even if there is one person i just use the Infernal Barrier at-will to give a similar shield if i crit.
    Same goes for Wraith's Shadow, useless before, useless now. Long CD for 6 seconds 5% dmg reduction, in a game that most dmg is 5 to 6 digits.
    And do not make me start about Warlocks Bargain, seriously, why take the heal away? And put the Cleanse in a TARGET power... Really? And why would i kill my Lifespark that can help me keep my team alive? In those 10 seconds my Lifespark can heal 3 times.

    Now, Pillar of Power..... Why? The two best uses i found it is puting it for myself or for the tank in a boss fight. And that only if the team ask me to use it tbh, cuz otherwise i would go semi dps as you requested with those feats and class features.

    The most common build would be something like:
    Daily: Soul Pact and anything else, most prolly a dps one.
    Encounters: Arms of Hadar, BoVa and Soulstorm.
    At-Wills: Infernal Barrier and Eldritch Blast.
    Class Features: Soulbound to keep the team "alive" and then any other Class Feature that isn't from the soulweaver tree.
    Feats: Anything that is dmg based.
    Have a pally shield in the team and only have one Loadout for heals with shields? You are screw, just go with heal overtime and Infernal Barrier, forget about Soul Reconstruction.


    You see that? From every new thing of this class, only three or four are "worth using". And heck, that build was made to keep the class and game enjoyable while being "usefull" for the team.

    I would love to say that i trully understand what are you doing with this changes... But i trully don't.. I don't understan. I know you had youtubers/streamers testing this changes way before you announce them and i find hard to believe that everyone said "you know? they will love this changes". But what makes me really mad is that i can't get what are you trying to do with Soulweavers, we were pretty unique as Templocks and that PoP was good enough. Then we had our little uniqueness with Life Bind with a watered down PoP......... And now this? I honestly can't find the "unique" this time.. Oh, wait.. The lifespark! that works every 3 seconds with a 100 mag heal and a long CD PoP that is just there to fill space with three other powers.

    I don't think you need to put Feypact and Hellpact feats as Class Features, but look into them and make them a better choice.
    I do think and believe that you need to rework the next Class Features:

    Souleater: Seriously, i already said this before but there is no way someone will use it and more in a Mod that has no active way to recover soulweave.
    Swift Command: Why should/would i use it? If im chaneling my heal and you walk away and die, its your fault.
    Borrowed Spirit: Again, even if its a trial i don't see a reason to use it.

    And the feats.. Oh.. My.. God.. Im mad enough that you took life bind away.. but this new ones are just... Sad..

    Essence of Power will always be a better choice cuz is the only way to feel the waiting is less painfull.
    Soul Reclamation doesn't feel like its doing anything but its a better choice than Focused Spark.
    Oversoul is DPS focused unless somehow it affects you heal, in that case i would heal one time and wait until my Soulweave is full again to do a "better" heal again, and even if it doesn't work like that, is way better than Soultheft. With that one, i would need to put myself in useless danger just to get a little amount of Soulweave.
    From the Brink will always be a better choice than Bright Spark. Its better to have that emergencie boost.
    And the lovely Feypact and Hellpact... Tbh, by default the "best" one is Feypact, and not for the pallys or the LAME 50 mag heal over time, but cuz the Lifespak could override the first shield i put if the other person had 99%hp.

    Then again. You see that? There is no choices, no "what if". I know that you only do what the higer ups say but.. Why this? Why this hate for Soulweavers? And i say hate cuz this is in no way an improvement for us, only regresion with every new change. Regresions that we need to figure out how to make it playable and fun while we hope for love that will never come cuz its just stockholm syndrome with a little of Harley Quinn/Joker relationship.
    And it is not in "blue" cuz right now i trully feel no changes will be done until 1 or 2 more mods and already made my mind that plenty of "adjustments" are comming for us.

    So yeah, my dear Soulweavers, right now we are like this. Lets hope for some love.

    I feel the same, every soulweaver will be the same, same build, same feats, same encounters, maybe same gear, same boons and none of them will be a good healer....
    Not even fun to play, those cooldowns and weak powers, sad man

    SAME thing every mod, just hope the next will be better and get us at least decent to the end game content....
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