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OFFICIAL M19: Zariel's Challenge Feedback

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  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,010 Arc User
    > @thefabricant said:
    > The hatred for players being able to earn unbound items through running hard content is nothing more than jealousy.* If you have the item that drops, you don't need it, so you don't need to buy it or run for it.
    >
    > * If you don't have the item and you don't want it, you don't need to buy it.
    >
    > * If you don't have the item and you do want it, you can choose between buying it or running the content for it.
    >
    > * If you can't run it and you want it, you can buy it.
    >
    >
    > There are only 2 reasons I can think of for opposing this.* You want the items to be status symbols, in which case, you want people to feel "forced" to run for them.
    >
    > * You don't want other players to earn any currency off of running the content (you have a problem with players earning something that you aren't able to).
    >
    >
    > Where as by contrast, making gear unbound means the people who don't want to feel "forced" to run the content, can choose not to run it and can simply buy the items instead. PVP players for example, or players who lack the gear or a group to participate, or players that don't like running trials for some other reason. Therefor, by making the drops unbound, you firstly make the game more "inclusive" because you are allowing people to have their gear without having to run content they don't want to AND you are giving the endgame players what they want.
    >
    > You have a problem with AD flowing in 1 direction? Maybe ask why the AD is flowing in 1 direction. It is flowing in 1 direction because there is nothing worthwhile in the other direction. This is not a problem with having rewards in harder content, it is a problem with there being no rewards anywhere at all. Maybe start asking for rewards in other content which can be sold, which have value and are worth the time to run for them, then trying to ensure that there are no rewards anywhere. Because if you do that, then AD will flow both ways.
    >
    > There is a small problem when content which is easy to do is not rewarding. There is a huge problem when there is content in the game which is not easy to do and requires heavy initial investment to finish is not rewarding. Instead of trying to ensure the same problem exists everywhere, maybe try and ask for it to be solved in whatever content you want to run because this petty jealousy is doing nothing good for the game and is only hindering progress as a whole.

    While I agree with this overall, you're missing the issue of either introducing new items which would just increase the power level cap, and if the content is hard, no new players will be joining in most groups.

    If you reintroduce old highly in demand stuff you risk inflation and devaluing those items, what can screw the economy up.

    For the 1st case you would need a way to level the playing field for newer players, either by scaling up where upgrading won't feel as relevant, or introducing a way for those new players who wanna do hard content but don't have a group.

    It's more complicated than that, really. Could make an essay on this but im working and on phone
  • rapidstar#3272 rapidstar Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    I agree that the rewards are not good enough but what some people here are asking for is propably even worse (at least for the economy of the game).


    The problem with rewarding unbound BiS items ONLY in content which few players can play is that it is gonna create imperfect competition. It already happened with ToMM. When it came out for few weeks there were propably less than 30 people who managed to beat it and they had complete market monopoly. This is obviously bad and there are two easiest ways to solve this.

    1) Possibility to obtain these BiS rewards in other types of content - great example which has already been mentioned is companion gear. Most players can play ME's and get it there and these pieces are bound. If the new trial had these as an unbound reward. It would give everyone an option to either play ME's for 2 moths or just buy them for a lot of AD.

    2) Limiting the maximum price - This one is self explanatory. The limit could be set to like 1million AD. I personally don't like this idea but it would also work.

    Now if get to the bound rewards I think some kind of shop would be good. Similar rewards to hell pit could be in a trial wards/mops/transmutes/scrolls of mass life/leg. mounts (for a lot of currency obvisouly) etc.


    Last little of topic thing I would like to say is that i disagree with IC not having good rewards. If you are a capable player and so are your team mates you can easily complete it without using scrolls/stones of health the only mechanic which is kinda stones of health dependant is 2nd boss - "fire-targeting".
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,239 Arc User
    edited June 3

    I agree that the rewards are not good enough but what some people here are asking for is propably even worse (at least for the economy of the game).

    The problem with rewarding unbound BiS items ONLY in content which few players can play is that it is gonna create imperfect competition. It already happened with ToMM. When it came out for few weeks there were propably less than 30 people who managed to beat it and they had complete market monopoly. This is obviously bad and there are two easiest ways to solve this.

    Except the issue you have highlighted does not in fact actually exist and you can see that simply by looking at the price of rings now. Sure, when it came out, only a few people can complete it and the demand for rings was high. Limited supply, high demand: Price is expensive. As more people become able to complete the content, the price drops.

    ToMM was a special circumstance. For the past 16 modules before it came out there was no challenging content in the game. So when challenging content came along and the people who were practicing said, "ToMM is hard, you should put in work so you can finish it," everyone scoffed at them, thought they were just bad players and assumed that when it went live they would beat it during their first run. They got a reality check. The result of this? There were only 2 groups (the groups who practiced on preview) who were able to beat ToMM when it went live, which meant they could charge whatever they liked for the rings. Zariel is different and you can see that already. To my knowledge there are already 4 groups which have completed Zariel and probably roughly 60 players, with even more practicing it every day. There will be no monopoly with Zariel if it had unbound loot, I can guarantee you of that.

    However, lets assume hypothetically that for some reason players are charging 30m ad for each zariel drop. If there are hypothetically people who are actually willing and able to pay that much, who do pay that much, it is their decision to do so. They think it is worth it, even if you don't and they don't need your sympathy for having payed that much, because anyone with enough AD to spend 30m on a single item, is not some "poor player" like people in this thread are making them out to be. The players running ToMM are then not "exploiting the poor" like you make them out to be, those prices are out of the range of a "poor player" to begin with. They think its worth it, even if you don't and it is their choice to make to spend that much on it.



    Last little of topic thing I would like to say is that i disagree with IC not having good rewards. If you are a capable player and so are your team mates you can easily complete it without using scrolls/stones of health the only mechanic which is kinda stones of health dependant is 2nd boss - "fire-targeting".

    You might think its good, but I don't and i'm sure many players agree with me. No, I don't use scrolls or stones anywhere, I even participated in this run just because people were complaining that IC was "endgame" and not aimed at "new players" just to show that IC can be done by pretty much anyone. And even if I can finish IC in 15 minutes, I don't think its worth the time.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,239 Arc User
    edited June 3


    While I agree with this overall, you're missing the issue of either introducing new items which would just increase the power level cap, and if the content is hard, no new players will be joining in most groups.
    If you reintroduce old highly in demand stuff you risk inflation and devaluing those items, what can screw the economy up.

    For the 1st case you would need a way to level the playing field for newer players, either by scaling up where upgrading won't feel as relevant, or introducing a way for those new players who wanna do hard content but don't have a group.
    It's more complicated than that, really. Could make an essay on this but im working and on phone

    Nowhere did I say they needed to add new items. I said they needed to add worthwhile items which are unbound. My first example of such an item in this thread in fact, were alternate skins for skills, which would add exactly 0 power to your character but would make them look fancy. I would prefer however if the weapons (which the trial already drops) were unbound so that players who don't want to run it don't feel any pressure to. You know, the goal stated by the devs which they have already failed to do.

    As for, "no new players joining groups" we can already see that is false, just look at ToMM. How many people are running it now vs when it came out? If no new people were joining groups this would not be the case. With Zariel there are already more people running it on preview than when ToMM initially went live.

    And please tell me, how does having these items bound, so that only the people who can complete it not increase the power level gap. As opposed to having it unbound so that anyone who wants to purchase it, can do so.
  • xander#0631 xander Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited June 3


    2) Limiting the maximum price - This one is self explanatory. The limit could be set to like 1million AD. I personally don't like this idea but it would also work.

    if this has to be considered i'd advise so that 1 mill if you make a 'buy now', but if you make an auction you may have a higher startinng id, or something like this.

    i mean i'd love to get bis stuff for only 1 million (enchantment, rune..) but it doesn't seems right.

    this is my personal experience :
    i have terrible rng, when i tried getting a staff of flowers from zock i got 3 mill ad before buying it from ah for 700k.
    i trained for IC for a week, when i completed it the first time (miracle!) i dropped the book, the value was 160k, one week before was 6 million.

    the AH can equalize itself with time, with more people completing; if people can't wait some time for the price to drop and/or try to farm those stuff for themselves let them buy it, they probably didn't sweated for those ad, or would wait.

    you don't need tomm stuff to farm tomm, you don't need ic stuff to farm ic, the problem is not the drop, nor the bound state of it but the idea that people have that they need that drop. (well as it was told in the cdp item to farm dungeon shouldn't come frome the dungeon itself, in that case for what use do i need those item? to make easier the run?)

    i'd like to have unbound drop from hard content (but even from easy content, like ME, juma, vallenhas order box), but make so that when it will no more be the hardest, the drop can keep some value, in 3-4 mod when tomm will be doable by the majority of player (if they don't scale it) people will not farm it because the drop (expecially the rings) will not sell.

    btw this is a tought from a middle tier player, (i completed IC 4 times,and could probably do tomm but never completed) and i don't think i will do zariel in a near time.

    the trial got completed by a pladin healer as solo healer, make so that this will not be possible, and if it's not too much to ask make so that every couple of healer can complete it (2 cleric, 2 warlock, 1 cleric and 1 warlock has been proved as possible while not an optimized one)
    reality is what most recognize as true
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited June 6


    In the past 19 mods the game has only ever arguably twice catered to "endgame" players. At launch and with ToMM. Claiming that it has catered for them for too long is a bad joke.

    This is called "moving the goalposts". When FBI came out, when ToNG and Cradle came out, when Castle Ravenloft came out, they were considered challenging and only endgame groups could do them at the time. Those dungeons and trials catered to YOU. They were for YOU and the other 1%ers. I wasn't running them when they first came out. New players weren't running them at the time. In fact, this is what a noted endgamer said about Cradle when it was on preview:

    "First off, I really like the design of it, it is challenging and only a very small minority of players will be able to complete it. This, imo, is a good thing as it provides a true end game."

    With only a couple of exceptions (such as Mod 15), every single mod has catered to the endgamers by introducing a new dungeon/trial that everyone knew that the 1%ers would swarm in first to complete and sell the loot for the highest price. How many orange Enchanting Stones did you sell from Cradle at 500k+ AD each because only a small handful of players could complete the trial at the time, and the stones were so rare at that point, that everyone needed for upgrades? And then you had a mod, Mod 17, that catered EXCLUSIVELY to you. Everyone else just got more of the same tired master expeditions. You complain that you have to try to recoup some 30 million AD investment to try to run the Zariel trial. What about the rest of us who will NEVER recoup our investment into OUR characters, because by time we ever get to complete any endgame content, the price of any of the loot in that dungeon has cratered to the bottom? We are stuck having to rely on RAD from random queues, and the very rare lucky random drop. I have been fortunate enough to be able to afford a Legendary T-Rex on my main character. There is literally zero content that I can run that will ever enable me to recoup the cost of that investment. Do you see me complaining about it? The way I see it, you and the other 1%ers got rich, in part, from being the first to loot every endgame content since the beginning of the game. If you don't get to recoup some investment this time around, well boo hoo but I will not shed a tear. Maybe this time around you will have to slum with the 99%ers in having to make AD running random queues and trying to barter hunt lures. Or maybe you'll just leave the game. That's fine, the game will continue to exist without you. We'll manage to stumble through Zariel's trial without you. Have fun wherever you go.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    My first example of such an item in this thread in fact, were alternate skins for skills, which would add exactly 0 power to your character but would make them look fancy.

    What would be an example of a "fancy" version of Indomitable Battle Strike? Or Bloodletter?
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited June 7
    > @chemjeff said:
    > (Quote)
    > This is called "moving the goalposts". When FBI came out, when ToNG and Cradle came out, when Castle Ravenloft came out, they were considered challenging and only endgame groups could do them at the time. Those dungeons and trials catered to YOU. They were for YOU and the other 1%ers. I wasn't running them when they first came out. New players weren't running them at the time. In fact, this is what a noted endgamer said about Cradle when it was on preview:
    >
    > "First off, I really like the design of it, it is challenging and only a very small minority of players will be able to complete it. This, imo, is a good thing as it provides a true end game."
    >
    > With only a couple of exceptions (such as Mod 15), every single mod has catered to the endgamers by introducing a new dungeon/trial that everyone knew that the 1%ers would swarm in first to complete and sell the loot for the highest price. How many orange Enchanting Stones did you sell from Cradle at 500k+ AD each because only a small handful of players could complete the trial at the time, and the stones were so rare at that point, that everyone needed for upgrades? And then you had a mod, Mod 17, that catered EXCLUSIVELY to you. Everyone else just got more of the same tired master expeditions. You complain that you have to try to recoup some 30 million AD investment to try to run the Zariel trial. What about the rest of us who will NEVER recoup our investment into OUR characters, because by time we ever get to complete any endgame content, the price of any of the loot in that dungeon has cratered to the bottom? We are stuck having to rely on RAD from random queues, and the very rare lucky random drop. I have been fortunate enough to be able to afford a Legendary T-Rex on my main character. There is literally zero content that I can run that will ever enable me to recoup the cost of that investment. Do you see me complaining about it? The way I see it, you and the other 1%ers got rich, in part, from being the first to loot every endgame content since the beginning of the game. If you don't get to recoup some investment this time around, well boo hoo but I will not shed a tear. Maybe this time around you will have to slum with the 99%ers in having to make AD running random queues and trying to barter hunt lures. Or maybe you'll just leave the game. That's fine, the game will continue to exist without you. We'll manage to stumble through Zariel's trial without you. Have fun wherever you go.

    ****************************************

    There’s too much here to unpack in one brief forum post, but the statements around FBI and such are exaggerated. No content of that sort had legitimately challenging mechanics that required dedicated practice; it just required that players have the gear, avoid red, and take note of one or two easy cues, like Drufi’s ice or the need to kill Defiant Souls at Ras Nsi.

    This game’s version of endgame content was previously limited to whatever the latest dungeon was, not that it was necessarily complex or challenging in line with many other games’ definition of the term.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    > @chemjeff said:
    > (Quote)
    > AT THE TIME, it was considered endgame. AT THE TIME, no one could execute these mechanics successfully and reliably except the end game 1%ers. AT THE TIME, it was considered challenging, even by many of the people who are now claiming that it was not. It is just revisionist history to suggest that Fangbreaker Island was considered to be anything other than a challenging piece of endgame content AT THE TIME that it was released.
    >
    > The fact of the matter is, the 1% endgamers have looted every endgame content for maximum rewards since the beginning of the game. So with Zariel we have endgame content that the 1%ers don't get to loot for maximum profit. Well boo f'n hoo.

    What you say still isn’t correct regardless how many caps you use for emphasis. The only major factor in the difficulty of that content was the need to gear sufficiently to run it with an acceptable margin for player error.

    Yes, even at the time. The simple mechanics in those dungeons have not somehow become more difficult to understand and to execute in the time since they were introduced. To suggest otherwise would constitute revisionist history.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    vorphied said:


    There’s too much here to unpack in one brief forum post, but the statements around FBI and such are exaggerated. No content of that sort had legitimately challenging mechanics that required dedicated practice; it just required that players have the gear, avoid red, and take note of one or two easy cues, like Drufi’s ice or the need to kill Defiant Souls at Ras Nsi.



    This game’s version of endgame content was previously limited to whatever the latest dungeon was, not that it was necessarily complex or challenging in line with many other games’ definition of the term.

    AT THE TIME, it was considered endgame. AT THE TIME, no one could execute these mechanics successfully and reliably except the end game 1%ers. AT THE TIME, it was considered challenging, even by many of the people who are now claiming that it was not. It is just revisionist history to suggest that Fangbreaker Island was considered to be anything other than a challenging piece of endgame content AT THE TIME that it was released.

    The fact of the matter is, the 1% endgamers have looted every endgame content for maximum rewards since the beginning of the game. So with Zariel we have endgame content that the 1%ers don't get to loot for maximum profit. Well boo f'n hoo.
    FBI at the time was only considered challenging because every other part of the game was super trivial compared to it. It was a suprise that you actually could die in a dungeon, because everyone was used to beeing unkillable and 1shotting every boss. There was no dungeon that you couldnt do solo, and it didnt even take that long till FBI was beeing soloed. FBI might have been hard compared to what we alrdy had (cause the rest was just so easy) but even in FBI a halfway competent group had no chance of failing the dungeon. ToMM is the only content introduced since i play (started in mod 8) that actually needed training to complete.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,010 Arc User
    This is where scaling should come in.

    If you want the full challenge, you go public queue. You're scales to the dungeon.

    If you want a scaled challenge where everyone including newer players (albeit with limits ofc, let's say 2500-3000 gear score +/-) can join and for every lower tier player the dungeon gets scaled down. Make the main drops (like how tomm has main hand and offhand) available to everyone but the rest has a lower chance.

    You need options. Sorta like SVA and MSVA.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User

    This is where scaling should come in.



    If you want the full challenge, you go public queue. You're scales to the dungeon.



    If you want a scaled challenge where everyone including newer players (albeit with limits ofc, let's say 2500-3000 gear score +/-) can join and for every lower tier player the dungeon gets scaled down. Make the main drops (like how tomm has main hand and offhand) available to everyone but the rest has a lower chance.



    You need options. Sorta like SVA and MSVA.

    going in via public que, the dungeon might be hard/unbeatable even (ToMM with 9 ppl that dont have the stats and have no clue what they are doing), but thats not at all fun.
    To me, its fun to work out with my friends how to overcome a certain challange, to practice and bang our heads against it till we beat it. That isnt something you can get out of public ques 99% of the time. The ppl in there will in most cases either a) dont communicate at all or b) leave the dungeon straight away.
    So to say, go public que if you want a challange misses the point completely.
  • usglass#9722 usglass Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    When I joined, literally no one was saying fbi was easy.
    Yes a rogue could solo given several hours but the hill still destroyed most teams and I literally went months with no one defeating drufi without using the glitch

    Even now I see plenty of 25-26k players unable to complete ic, let alone tomm.
    Personally, I'm not running tomm as I don't see the investment in learning it as beneficial given the number of scrolls burnt. So I'm farming ad, farming me, bags etc to be ready for mod 19.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User
    edited June 7

    When I joined, literally no one was saying fbi was easy.

    Yes a rogue could solo given several hours but the hill still destroyed most teams and I literally went months with no one defeating drufi without using the glitch



    Even now I see plenty of 25-26k players unable to complete ic, let alone tomm.

    Personally, I'm not running tomm as I don't see the investment in learning it as beneficial given the number of scrolls burnt. So I'm farming ad, farming me, bags etc to be ready for mod 19.

    we did defeat drufi on day one in our first run, and then every day afterwards without using any glitches... the ppl that needed to glitch FBI were definitly not in the "1%"
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    chemjeff said:

    My first example of such an item in this thread in fact, were alternate skins for skills, which would add exactly 0 power to your character but would make them look fancy.

    What would be an example of a "fancy" version of Indomitable Battle Strike? Or Bloodletter?
    Change Bloodletter's effect to spew Holy Doughnuts rather than blood.
    The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch instead of Smoke Bomb would rock.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    chemjeff said:


    In the past 19 mods the game has only ever arguably twice catered to "endgame" players. At launch and with ToMM. Claiming that it has catered for them for too long is a bad joke.

    This is called "moving the goalposts". When FBI came out, when ToNG and Cradle came out, when Castle Ravenloft came out, they were considered challenging and only endgame groups could do them at the time. Those dungeons and trials catered to YOU. They were for YOU and the other 1%ers. I wasn't running them when they first came out. New players weren't running them at the time. In fact, this is what a noted endgamer said about Cradle when it was on preview:

    "First off, I really like the design of it, it is challenging and only a very small minority of players will be able to complete it. This, imo, is a good thing as it provides a true end game."

    With only a couple of exceptions (such as Mod 15), every single mod has catered to the endgamers by introducing a new dungeon/trial that everyone knew that the 1%ers would swarm in first to complete and sell the loot for the highest price. How many orange Enchanting Stones did you sell from Cradle at 500k+ AD each because only a small handful of players could complete the trial at the time, and the stones were so rare at that point, that everyone needed for upgrades? And then you had a mod, Mod 17, that catered EXCLUSIVELY to you. Everyone else just got more of the same tired master expeditions. You complain that you have to try to recoup some 30 million AD investment to try to run the Zariel trial. What about the rest of us who will NEVER recoup our investment into OUR characters, because by time we ever get to complete any endgame content, the price of any of the loot in that dungeon has cratered to the bottom? We are stuck having to rely on RAD from random queues, and the very rare lucky random drop. I have been fortunate enough to be able to afford a Legendary T-Rex on my main character. There is literally zero content that I can run that will ever enable me to recoup the cost of that investment. Do you see me complaining about it? The way I see it, you and the other 1%ers got rich, in part, from being the first to loot every endgame content since the beginning of the game. If you don't get to recoup some investment this time around, well boo hoo but I will not shed a tear. Maybe this time around you will have to slum with the 99%ers in having to make AD running random queues and trying to barter hunt lures. Or maybe you'll just leave the game. That's fine, the game will continue to exist without you. We'll manage to stumble through Zariel's trial without you. Have fun wherever you go.
    This is pretty much what I think too.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Member Posts: 434 Arc User
    There was nothing wrong with the hill climb in FBI, it just punishes those who don't get out of the red. This was a change from older content. People just did not think it was important to dodge out of the red, it might interrupt their rotation.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    When I joined, literally no one was saying fbi was easy.

    Yes a rogue could solo given several hours but the hill still destroyed most teams and I literally went months with no one defeating drufi without using the glitch



    Even now I see plenty of 25-26k players unable to complete ic, let alone tomm.

    Personally, I'm not running tomm as I don't see the investment in learning it as beneficial given the number of scrolls burnt. So I'm farming ad, farming me, bags etc to be ready for mod 19.

    Your experience is broadly consistent with mine. I did not use "the glitch" but it was difficult to finish nonetheless. You had to have a DC to cleanse people at the first boss (sorry paladins), the second boss was often a place where groups failed because they could not kill the turtle in time before he acquired too many stacks, and the last boss was just a very long fight - sure, the mechanics are "simple" by today's standards, but they were not so "simple" then, and moreover, everyone had to be on their toes to act appropriately to the mechanics for a very long fight, just a few slip-ups meant a team wipe. (e.g., a team member not dodging in time for ice, one team member out of position for the hypothermia, accidentally killing all the ice before Call of Winter, one team member stuck against the wall for Drufi's push attack, etc.). I might have finished it once or twice by the end of Mod 10 but there were a lot of fails in between. And it was VERY hard to find groups for a DPS character so there was great pressure to perform well once you were able to find a group. It was stressful and miserable. And then of course there was the Voninblod grind to recharge your gear after every attempt, including the failed ones.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    edited June 8

    chemjeff said:


    In the past 19 mods the game has only ever arguably twice catered to "endgame" players. At launch and with ToMM. Claiming that it has catered for them for too long is a bad joke.

    This is called "moving the goalposts". When FBI came out, when ToNG and Cradle came out, when Castle Ravenloft came out, they were considered challenging and only endgame groups could do them at the time. Those dungeons and trials catered to YOU. They were for YOU and the other 1%ers. I wasn't running them when they first came out. New players weren't running them at the time. In fact, this is what a noted endgamer said about Cradle when it was on preview:

    "First off, I really like the design of it, it is challenging and only a very small minority of players will be able to complete it. This, imo, is a good thing as it provides a true end game."

    With only a couple of exceptions (such as Mod 15), every single mod has catered to the endgamers by introducing a new dungeon/trial that everyone knew that the 1%ers would swarm in first to complete and sell the loot for the highest price. How many orange Enchanting Stones did you sell from Cradle at 500k+ AD each because only a small handful of players could complete the trial at the time, and the stones were so rare at that point, that everyone needed for upgrades? And then you had a mod, Mod 17, that catered EXCLUSIVELY to you. Everyone else just got more of the same tired master expeditions. You complain that you have to try to recoup some 30 million AD investment to try to run the Zariel trial. What about the rest of us who will NEVER recoup our investment into OUR characters, because by time we ever get to complete any endgame content, the price of any of the loot in that dungeon has cratered to the bottom? We are stuck having to rely on RAD from random queues, and the very rare lucky random drop. I have been fortunate enough to be able to afford a Legendary T-Rex on my main character. There is literally zero content that I can run that will ever enable me to recoup the cost of that investment. Do you see me complaining about it? The way I see it, you and the other 1%ers got rich, in part, from being the first to loot every endgame content since the beginning of the game. If you don't get to recoup some investment this time around, well boo hoo but I will not shed a tear. Maybe this time around you will have to slum with the 99%ers in having to make AD running random queues and trying to barter hunt lures. Or maybe you'll just leave the game. That's fine, the game will continue to exist without you. We'll manage to stumble through Zariel's trial without you. Have fun wherever you go.
    This is pretty much what I think too.
    Your literal solution for the game not making enough content for the general playerbase is having an envious bitter joy in seeing the other part of the playerbase having a bad time in a thing that does not affect you and does not help in any tangible way on the thing you are complaining about. Have your good time "in the slums" and just keep your habit of not actually wanting to make things better for you, but worse for the others.

    Congratulations to both of you.
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User

    chemjeff said:


    In the past 19 mods the game has only ever arguably twice catered to "endgame" players. At launch and with ToMM. Claiming that it has catered for them for too long is a bad joke.

    This is called "moving the goalposts". When FBI came out, when ToNG and Cradle came out, when Castle Ravenloft came out, they were considered challenging and only endgame groups could do them at the time. Those dungeons and trials catered to YOU. They were for YOU and the other 1%ers. I wasn't running them when they first came out. New players weren't running them at the time. In fact, this is what a noted endgamer said about Cradle when it was on preview:

    "First off, I really like the design of it, it is challenging and only a very small minority of players will be able to complete it. This, imo, is a good thing as it provides a true end game."

    With only a couple of exceptions (such as Mod 15), every single mod has catered to the endgamers by introducing a new dungeon/trial that everyone knew that the 1%ers would swarm in first to complete and sell the loot for the highest price. How many orange Enchanting Stones did you sell from Cradle at 500k+ AD each because only a small handful of players could complete the trial at the time, and the stones were so rare at that point, that everyone needed for upgrades? And then you had a mod, Mod 17, that catered EXCLUSIVELY to you. Everyone else just got more of the same tired master expeditions. You complain that you have to try to recoup some 30 million AD investment to try to run the Zariel trial. What about the rest of us who will NEVER recoup our investment into OUR characters, because by time we ever get to complete any endgame content, the price of any of the loot in that dungeon has cratered to the bottom? We are stuck having to rely on RAD from random queues, and the very rare lucky random drop. I have been fortunate enough to be able to afford a Legendary T-Rex on my main character. There is literally zero content that I can run that will ever enable me to recoup the cost of that investment. Do you see me complaining about it? The way I see it, you and the other 1%ers got rich, in part, from being the first to loot every endgame content since the beginning of the game. If you don't get to recoup some investment this time around, well boo hoo but I will not shed a tear. Maybe this time around you will have to slum with the 99%ers in having to make AD running random queues and trying to barter hunt lures. Or maybe you'll just leave the game. That's fine, the game will continue to exist without you. We'll manage to stumble through Zariel's trial without you. Have fun wherever you go.
    This is pretty much what I think too.
    Your literal solution for the game not making enough content for the general playerbase is having an envious bitter joy in seeing the other part of the playerbase having a bad time in a thing that does not affect you and does not help in any tangible way on the thing you are complaining about. Have your good time "in the slums" and just keep your habit of not actually wanting to make things better for you, but worse for the others.

    Congratulations to both of you.
    What are you talking about? I'm actually looking forward to the Mod 19 campaign and the hunts. I hope to eagerly participate in those. I am glad that the devs are making content for ALL of the players, not like in Mod 17 when it was only for the 1%ers. No I will probably not do the "hard mode" Zariel trial, I will try the "story mode" one and see what it is all about. That means I'm not going to get the new weapons. They are all for you.

    Besides we all know that only those players who have Lionheart weapons will ever be invited to do "hard mode" Zariel trial. So the pool of eligible players for your trial is relatively small. You have your own exclusive little trial that is all for you. Why is that not good enough?
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    chemjeff said:

    chemjeff said:


    In the past 19 mods the game has only ever arguably twice catered to "endgame" players. At launch and with ToMM. Claiming that it has catered for them for too long is a bad joke.

    This is called "moving the goalposts". When FBI came out, when ToNG and Cradle came out, when Castle Ravenloft came out, they were considered challenging and only endgame groups could do them at the time. Those dungeons and trials catered to YOU. They were for YOU and the other 1%ers. I wasn't running them when they first came out. New players weren't running them at the time. In fact, this is what a noted endgamer said about Cradle when it was on preview:

    "First off, I really like the design of it, it is challenging and only a very small minority of players will be able to complete it. This, imo, is a good thing as it provides a true end game."

    With only a couple of exceptions (such as Mod 15), every single mod has catered to the endgamers by introducing a new dungeon/trial that everyone knew that the 1%ers would swarm in first to complete and sell the loot for the highest price. How many orange Enchanting Stones did you sell from Cradle at 500k+ AD each because only a small handful of players could complete the trial at the time, and the stones were so rare at that point, that everyone needed for upgrades? And then you had a mod, Mod 17, that catered EXCLUSIVELY to you. Everyone else just got more of the same tired master expeditions. You complain that you have to try to recoup some 30 million AD investment to try to run the Zariel trial. What about the rest of us who will NEVER recoup our investment into OUR characters, because by time we ever get to complete any endgame content, the price of any of the loot in that dungeon has cratered to the bottom? We are stuck having to rely on RAD from random queues, and the very rare lucky random drop. I have been fortunate enough to be able to afford a Legendary T-Rex on my main character. There is literally zero content that I can run that will ever enable me to recoup the cost of that investment. Do you see me complaining about it? The way I see it, you and the other 1%ers got rich, in part, from being the first to loot every endgame content since the beginning of the game. If you don't get to recoup some investment this time around, well boo hoo but I will not shed a tear. Maybe this time around you will have to slum with the 99%ers in having to make AD running random queues and trying to barter hunt lures. Or maybe you'll just leave the game. That's fine, the game will continue to exist without you. We'll manage to stumble through Zariel's trial without you. Have fun wherever you go.
    This is pretty much what I think too.
    Your literal solution for the game not making enough content for the general playerbase is having an envious bitter joy in seeing the other part of the playerbase having a bad time in a thing that does not affect you and does not help in any tangible way on the thing you are complaining about. Have your good time "in the slums" and just keep your habit of not actually wanting to make things better for you, but worse for the others.

    Congratulations to both of you.
    What are you talking about? I'm actually looking forward to the Mod 19 campaign and the hunts. I hope to eagerly participate in those. I am glad that the devs are making content for ALL of the players, not like in Mod 17 when it was only for the 1%ers. No I will probably not do the "hard mode" Zariel trial, I will try the "story mode" one and see what it is all about. That means I'm not going to get the new weapons. They are all for you.

    Besides we all know that only those players who have Lionheart weapons will ever be invited to do "hard mode" Zariel trial. So the pool of eligible players for your trial is relatively small. You have your own exclusive little trial that is all for you. Why is that not good enough?
    The better question is what are you talking about. You are almost delusionally fixated on the idea of the "1% vs. the rest" where you literally compared to the 95% of the game to a ghetto because it's not the shiny endgame stuff. Even your ragehating comment is just factually bad and more than one people pointed this out already, so I just skip that.

    But the more important part, the only person who cares about the "1% EXCLUSIVELY elite fortherich" whatever is you.
    I don't care how EXCLUSIVELY available it is and no one else does who will be able to run it, because fake status worths nothing, an overdamaging weapon as status symbol worths even less as it trivializes content even further.

    You don't even have a point why it's good that "we" have this, because there is none. It's not fun, because it requires too much grind to get through successfully, it does not worth doing, it's not engaging enough for the next 4 month because people will be through this in preview already and also, as you said, the 99% of the players are just not expected to do it. In the current state the trial is not good for anyone in the game. It's a waste of resources.

    I already said in this very topic that if the price of getting rewards is to lower the requirements, then they should just do it. I would not need to invest insane amounts into something just to find excuses to play this game for 4 more months and having the reward based on the skill and determination from learning the mechanics and executing is something that ALL player should aspire for.
  • xavior44xavior44 Member Posts: 131 Arc User

    The hatred for players being able to earn unbound items through running hard content is nothing more than jealousy.

    • If you have the item that drops, you don't need it, so you don't need to buy it or run for it.
    • If you don't have the item and you don't want it, you don't need to buy it.
    • If you don't have the item and you do want it, you can choose between buying it or running the content for it.
    • If you can't run it and you want it, you can buy it.
    There are only 2 reasons I can think of for opposing this.
    • You want the items to be status symbols, in which case, you want people to feel "forced" to run for them.
    • You don't want other players to earn any currency off of running the content (you have a problem with players earning something that you aren't able to).
    Where as by contrast, making gear unbound means the people who don't want to feel "forced" to run the content, can choose not to run it and can simply buy the items instead. PVP players for example, or players who lack the gear or a group to participate, or players that don't like running trials for some other reason. Therefor, by making the drops unbound, you firstly make the game more "inclusive" because you are allowing people to have their gear without having to run content they don't want to AND you are giving the endgame players what they want.

    You have a problem with AD flowing in 1 direction? Maybe ask why the AD is flowing in 1 direction. It is flowing in 1 direction because there is nothing worthwhile in the other direction. This is not a problem with having rewards in harder content, it is a problem with there being no rewards anywhere at all. Maybe start asking for rewards in other content which can be sold, which have value and are worth the time to run for them, then trying to ensure that there are no rewards anywhere. Because if you do that, then AD will flow both ways.

    There is a small problem when content which is easy to do is not rewarding. There is a huge problem when there is content in the game which is not easy to do and requires heavy initial investment to finish is not rewarding. Instead of trying to ensure the same problem exists everywhere, maybe try and ask for it to be solved in whatever content you want to run because this petty jealousy is doing nothing good for the game and is only hindering progress as a whole.
    What if there is no need to be jealous because you can complete the trial and my god why would ANYONE be jealous of your groups crapy antics anyways? I personally fall into that category and reason 1 and 2 for opposing do not apply to me. This is a great way to filter out the trash of this game that has been rotting for a long time now and show peoples true colors. Trust me, myself and others WILL help other people train and finish this dungeon and sorry to say your argument does not stand PERIOD. FYI People wont need to buy BIS items if they are coming from other locations that everyone can access anyways :) Better Luck Next Mod?
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 117 Arc User
    Shielding mechanic on Barbarian Sentinel during Zariel fight in the new trial. If I block the Judgement through the normal shielding mechanic I will die almost every time unless I deflect the atack and remain with 5-10k hp. When I am getting Unstoppable I don`t encounter any problems taking big hits over 1.5-1.7m per judgement. So my question is: does the block should be performed only under Unstoppable effect, or the normal Shield (shift) mechanic is affected by the new changes and it doesn`t block properly the Judgement? Unstoppable works different than other TAB mechanics the other two classes have. If those two can use TAB to activate their damage mitigation anytime on sentinels we have to get enough rage to enter unstoppable. If we do one mistake and we won`t have enough rage to enter Unstoppable during judgement that will lead us to death. It is not a healthy solution for tanking. And without creating confusion the answer is Yes. This happens after I take the aggro from the other tank.
  • coolgor28#5062 coolgor28 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 41 Arc User
    edited June 8
    You used daily or encounter before the block to get more hp?

    As block is 50% of your hp so if you have let's say 1M hp will be 1.5M total you can block and she hits more then that.

    Always use daily or encounter that give hp before you get agro.
    When on unstoppable block is 100% of our hp so will be like 2M block.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,239 Arc User
    chemjeff said:



    This is called "moving the goalposts". When FBI came out, when ToNG and Cradle came out, when Castle Ravenloft came out, they were considered challenging and only endgame groups could do them at the time. Those dungeons and trials catered to YOU. They were for YOU and the other 1%ers. I wasn't running them when they first came out. New players weren't running them at the time. In fact, this is what a noted endgamer said about Cradle when it was on preview:

    "First off, I really like the design of it, it is challenging and only a very small minority of players will be able to complete it. This, imo, is a good thing as it provides a true end game."

    That noted endgamer turned out to be wrong, about 2 weeks after it went live there were 100+ instances of CoDG with people running it. FBI? On the day of release it had 60+ instances. Castle Ravenloft was no different either, it was "harder" than the previous content sure, but the community treated it largely the same as pretty much any other piece of content. They felt no obligation to take time learning it and going in blind one could have the expectation of finishing the dungeon. ToMM was very clearly different to that.

    How was it different? The community tried to treat it the same. They assumed that the very first time they attempted to run it, they would complete it. They were instead treated to a slap on the face with reality. It was actually challenging. This was why when ToMM first went live only 2 groups completed it. Because only 2 groups took it seriously.
    chemjeff said:


    And then you had a mod, Mod 17, that catered EXCLUSIVELY to you. Everyone else just got more of the same tired master expeditions. You complain that you have to try to recoup some 30 million AD investment to try to run the Zariel trial. What about the rest of us who will NEVER recoup our investment into OUR characters, because by time we ever get to complete any endgame content, the price of any of the loot in that dungeon has cratered to the bottom? We are stuck having to rely on RAD from random queues, and the very rare lucky random drop. I have been fortunate enough to be able to afford a Legendary T-Rex on my main character. There is literally zero content that I can run that will ever enable me to recoup the cost of that investment. Do you see me complaining about it? The way I see it, you and the other 1%ers got rich, in part, from being the first to loot every endgame content since the beginning of the game. If you don't get to recoup some investment this time around, well boo hoo but I will not shed a tear. Maybe this time around you will have to slum with the 99%ers in having to make AD running random queues and trying to barter hunt lures. Or maybe you'll just leave the game. That's fine, the game will continue to exist without you. We'll manage to stumble through Zariel's trial without you. Have fun wherever you go.

    1. Nobody said that it was good that only one group of people got content in M17, but we did say that it was nice that endgame players got content at all.
    2. ToMM was great, even 5 months after release there were still groups who were only just then managing to finish it, who were then able to recoup their investment via selling rings. This clearly underscores how having valuable drops in hard content, provides incentive to finish it and allows players to recoup their character investment.
    3. As I have already said, the problem is that there are no valuable drops ANYWHERE in the game, not that there are only valuable drops in hard content. The solution is to advocate for valuable drops EVERYWHERE (and for each drop to be exclusive to that piece of content so that different pieces of content are not competing with each other) and not to advocate for the loot everywhere in the game to be awful.
    And here's a little bit of an eye opener for you, the people you are hurting by advocating for this isn't players like me, there is literally nothing you can do in this game to "hurt" a player like me short of banning my account. Its hurting little people who want to be able to run hard content, but can't quite afford to do so. You want content that is only completed by the 0.1%? Congratulations, that is what you are making right now. Because anyone outside of that really small group of people that can afford to literally buy out the entire legendary mount market off the ah and not be hurt by it at all now has no reason to work towards this content. You already know some of the ways how I make AD, I believe I gave you a little bit of a lesson on an "Infernal Citadel on Low geared characters" thread. That isn't going to change because you suddenly changed endgame content to not be rewarding at all.

    And since its kind of tiring me how people are getting "upset" about the "poor" people who spent 30m AD on rings or other ToMM items, I thank you for your sympathy. For your information, I bought a Scepter for 20m on the first say the trial went live from a friend of mine in the same group. If I had asked for it, I could have probably got it for free. His character needed improving though and I was willing to help him out. People are a hesitant to take "donations" but are fine with justifying things like that. I also bought 2 legendary rings because I liked the colour orange and I wanted to be the first person using 2 of them.

    So please, send me all your "sympathies" for spending that much. I can almost guarantee you that every single person who spent that much on the items was in the same position as me, we need no "sympathy." We knew that if we waited 3 weeks the price of items would drop significantly and we bought stuff regardless. When the prices were that high, they were not aimed at you, they were aimed at a completely different market of player and that "market" in no way felt exploited for it. The prices dropped, just like every single person knew they would and the items became accessible to everyone.
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