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Official M19: Healing Adjustments

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  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    Zariel Challenge solo heal Pally by Rainer



    image


    Can a cleric do that? Can a warlock do that? Of course not.
    Here it is your balance. And you ignore it? And why am I asking, you always ignored this.
    And I'm sure that the whole new healing system that we now see on the test server will be on the main server without changes ...
    None of us are denying this, and this is why we are asking for shields to be nerfed/removed, and not for Cleric and Warlock to be buffed
    again we have to remember that this is a problem intertwined together, if the overshield is removed, both TOMM and Zariel would need to have their damage nerfed by about 50% to be able to give space for healers to heal before death of all. I still think it would be viable and would give more synergy to the healer classes, overshield vs HoT systems for everyone, where through feats (preference features classes), it would be possible to choose more shield or HoT healing, and in the trials we would always have one healer responsible for Shield and another for HoT. On top of that, the unique specifications of each buff debuff class would apply among another thousand things that can be implemented, (just use your imagination well). If we look at the whole thing from the outside and imagine Overshield and HoT as a basic mechanic of Healers that can be managed by their choices in the build as a whole, we can start to have a new vision of mechanics really unique for each individual class. I already made a post about it very extensive and gave several examples of how it can all be broad and functional.

    Understand, I am not against the elimination of the entire Overshiel system from the NWO, this would imply an adjustment in the damage of the final DGs, and this can be done, but I believe that a reality that stops analyzing Overshield and HoT as a mechanic one class and not another, but as Healer mechanics, then we can begin to take better steps in creating uncial class mechanics, because I try both possible aspects in all healers, we will have more options and then more diversities and possible synergies.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,035 Arc User

    arazith07 said:

    Zariel Challenge solo heal Pally by Rainer



    image


    Can a cleric do that? Can a warlock do that? Of course not.
    Here it is your balance. And you ignore it? And why am I asking, you always ignored this.
    And I'm sure that the whole new healing system that we now see on the test server will be on the main server without changes ...
    None of us are denying this, and this is why we are asking for shields to be nerfed/removed, and not for Cleric and Warlock to be buffed
    again we have to remember that this is a problem intertwined together, if the overshield is removed, both TOMM and Zariel would need to have their damage nerfed by about 50% to be able to give space for healers to heal before death of all. I still think it would be viable and would give more synergy to the healer classes, overshield vs HoT systems for everyone, where through feats (preference features classes), it would be possible to choose more shield or HoT healing, and in the trials we would always have one healer responsible for Shield and another for HoT. On top of that, the unique specifications of each buff debuff class would apply among another thousand things that can be implemented, (just use your imagination well). If we look at the whole thing from the outside and imagine Overshield and HoT as a basic mechanic of Healers that can be managed by their choices in the build as a whole, we can start to have a new vision of mechanics really unique for each individual class. I already made a post about it very extensive and gave several examples of how it can all be broad and functional.

    Understand, I am not against the elimination of the entire Overshiel system from the NWO, this would imply an adjustment in the damage of the final DGs, and this can be done, but I believe that a reality that stops analyzing Overshield and HoT as a mechanic one class and not another, but as Healer mechanics, then we can begin to take better steps in creating uncial class mechanics, because I try both possible aspects in all healers, we will have more options and then more diversities and possible synergies.
    Hasn't ZC and and ToMM been completed without a paladin healer though? I don't think a 50% nerf of enemy damage is required, at the very least, not nearly that much.
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    arazith07 said:

    Zariel Challenge solo heal Pally by Rainer



    image


    Can a cleric do that? Can a warlock do that? Of course not.
    Here it is your balance. And you ignore it? And why am I asking, you always ignored this.
    And I'm sure that the whole new healing system that we now see on the test server will be on the main server without changes ...
    None of us are denying this, and this is why we are asking for shields to be nerfed/removed, and not for Cleric and Warlock to be buffed
    again we have to remember that this is a problem intertwined together, if the overshield is removed, both TOMM and Zariel would need to have their damage nerfed by about 50% to be able to give space for healers to heal before death of all. I still think it would be viable and would give more synergy to the healer classes, overshield vs HoT systems for everyone, where through feats (preference features classes), it would be possible to choose more shield or HoT healing, and in the trials we would always have one healer responsible for Shield and another for HoT. On top of that, the unique specifications of each buff debuff class would apply among another thousand things that can be implemented, (just use your imagination well). If we look at the whole thing from the outside and imagine Overshield and HoT as a basic mechanic of Healers that can be managed by their choices in the build as a whole, we can start to have a new vision of mechanics really unique for each individual class. I already made a post about it very extensive and gave several examples of how it can all be broad and functional.

    Understand, I am not against the elimination of the entire Overshiel system from the NWO, this would imply an adjustment in the damage of the final DGs, and this can be done, but I believe that a reality that stops analyzing Overshield and HoT as a mechanic one class and not another, but as Healer mechanics, then we can begin to take better steps in creating uncial class mechanics, because I try both possible aspects in all healers, we will have more options and then more diversities and possible synergies.
    Hasn't ZC and and ToMM been completed without a paladin healer though? I don't think a 50% nerf of enemy damage is required, at the very least, not nearly that much.
    So far I haven't seen any of the 2 contents being done without paladins in an acceptable way, if there was anyone who managed to do it without the paladin. as many already mentioned, these contents are being made in a way that the paladin's shield is being extremely important for its conclusion. so I highlighted that if the overshield were removed from the game a nerf in those final contents would be necessary, I used 50% as an example, I have no idea how much a necessary amount would be for this.
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    edited June 2020

    Hello, first forgive me for English, I'm Brazilian and I'm using the help of google translator. (Taking advantage of the cue I would very much like to ask those responsible for programming the forum to allow browser extensions like Google's own to automatically translate posts, the browser can only translate the menu bar and small things outside the posts). People are a lot of work to follow the forum having to copy and paste all the posts on the google translator page. Such help would be most welcome. ♥

    Well, I'm main WL Soulweaver, and I also have CL and PL as Alts who heal, I passed the three to the preview and did some tests, I read the feedback from members on the forum a lot and decided to give my share of contribution, I like to think I have voice for what will be done in the future of Neverwinter.
    Forgive me for the huge text I want to address everything I thought, if it doesn't fit I will divide it into parts.

    General Considerations for Basic Changes

    First of all I would like to raise a dissatisfaction with all the respect for the Devs, I was unable to understand the need for changes in the magnitudes + healing division + reduction of healing inputs and outputs. It has been said that this will help players with more modest loadouts to perform better. Honestly forgive me this is totally unfair and disrespectful to your players.
    1- This will decrease the feeling of conquest and end game progression of new players (something that by the way has been getting lost with some frequency since M16).
    2- I spent 1 year and 6 months playing WL DPS until I decided to start investing in the Healer, and you can imagine how much time, physical and mental resources plus some real money aids were needed to put 5 companions in the Legendary and farm companion items repeatedly until you get a good match for a healer. If you really want to make life easier for new people, reduce the amount of AD needed for a companion upgrade as well as the amount of tokens needed to do so. Reduce the value of the Token Pack in the Zen store, add new outgoing companions in the game and drop them and content like juma and Bel, but reducing outgoing so strongly is very sad for those who have already struggled to get there where are we. I read that even though it is currently 3% it will still be relevant because the calculators do this and that, (I do not want and I will not go into the merits of calculations), anyway this is not legal.

    Mentions of points already mentioned and Suggestions.

    Yes, blueshield is a problem that generates segregation within the NW, I don't know if removing it would be the solution. Imagining a scenario where it is deleted from mechanics and damage from enemies and especially from recent Bosses is reduced by something close to 35% perhaps, the blue shield would no longer be so crucial and that looks promising. It is worth mentioning that even if the enemies' damage was reduced by half, the DPS would still prefer a shielded PL to facilitate their runs.
    1- In a reality where Healers coexist with Blue Shield in harmony within the NW, CL needs to earn their Shield too. The best way for healers to coexist without suffering any discrimination is to be able to perform well in what they intend to do.

    Suggestion:

    In this case we need WL, CL and PL with their respective Shields, differentiating by color PL = Blue, CL = Yellow, WL = Green (I thought of a color as a dark orange resembling magma) because of the hellish theme of barrier, in this case the Shield of the CL should be a brighter yellow to differentiate more from the color of the magma since it pulls a little towards yellow.

    2- I agree that not being able to use the Tab to regenerate our resources is unnecessary, as mentioned by the others, there is a lot of idle time for them to use the Tab which is much more interesting than just standing around waiting, and the management of Divinity / Current Soul Spark is a mechanic that differentiates one healer from another and even more dynamism for gameplay. (maybe I agree that in the case of CL and PL the regeneration when praying could be a little greater). Don't get me wrong I loved the new Tab Marks system as well as the healing skill, including putting the activation of CL's Tier 5 feats as an action of holding the tab for 4 brilliant seconds.

    Suggestion:

    I would like to see a reality where this new system of marks and cures using the tab was added but they maintained the system of prayer.
    Example: Press Tab 2 times to mark an ally
    Press the Tab 2 times and hold to channel the healing skill
    Hold the Tab to regenerate your “divinity”, after releasing the tab it will have an indicator for 2 seconds (the player can have a glow style animation around the body), if the tab is reactivated in the indicated period activates feat X.
    Remembering that perhaps these new mechanics can exist without the need for changes
    Mechanics like the example of pressing double or triple holding or not holding, are things that can make the game more dynamic and challenging, and still be effective. magnitudes + division of curra + reduction of curing inputs and outputs. In my view, the cure is quite consistent today except for the segregation generated by the blue shield. For me, these mechanics that are in the preview / suggestions we passed are interesting and can work well added to the magnitudes and status that are in the live (maybe with some slight adjustments of course).


    3- Regardless of whether or not you have the option of using the Tab for regeneration, I agree that it would be interesting to add a divinity bar display of the group members, style the sampling of the stamina of the tanks, this would help healers to know when to use one healing based on who has the most “resource” for this, and would also help tanks and dps and know if you really need to use any consumables for healing since they can see if the 2 healers in a trial are low on “resource”.

    Suggestion:

    These displays can also follow the respective colors of their "features" by giving a green bar for WL and a yellow bar for PL and CL.
    4- At this point I will agree with several members regarding the positioning of the tab brand and I will pull some additional ones that may come out of the context a little, but they are applicable in this topic 4.

    Suggestions:

    • They are asking to place the mark higher so that it is not overlapped by the names and bars of HP, you might consider adding this mark on the right side of the HP bar. (Speaking of which, we could have a type of icon / coat of arms to replace our level 80 on the left side of the HP bar with some type of PvE meter, like our level item for example, 25.6, instead of 80). Or maybe something that changes according to the amount of content completed.
    • Returning to the subject Mark of the tab, they must be differentiated according to class (For the love of jesus, make a worthy mark for WL, a model of curse greater or less reworked perhaps). For CL the wings are a good choice, perhaps slightly smaller and with a more visible outline. For PL I imagined it could be a divine shield, similar to that of PL healer's feat Tier 5 (Emissary of Warding). All people marked can have a highlight around their HP bar something like an external glow that can have their color changed according to the class they marked, following the colors of the supposed Shields of each class, mentioned above. This same brightness can extend to the HP bar shown in the party formation in the upper left corner as well as the addition of the same brand icon next to the HP or the threat bar. Speaking of which, we could already have access to party number 2 of our Trials which would be just below party number1 which you are included in) so that we can have a larger dimension of the 2 parties and still have the individuality of each party.
    • I would like to add to the subject of overlap, which is very much done when a player climbs on his mount and his name and HP are superimposed on the players, usually staying in the waist area instead of climbing up next to the player so that he remains above his head. (totally out of context, but I imagine it is something easy to solve).
    • Still a little off topic, but still inside, it would be interesting if you could put a remaining buff / debuff time counter on top of each box. Take the stacks of the soul puppet as an example, in the place where the stack counter could be, the second ones left for the stacks to run out, and on the upper left side of the buff / debuff added the stack number, or that number could be above, outside the buff / debuff square. I even thought of a visual additive that would be a slight contour / external glow, that would be around each square and would move counterclockwise, going out as it approaches the end of the counter.
    5- I agree about the look of the soulspark bar with the balls are much more intuitive and easier to calculate, but I liked the new bar too.

    Suggestion:

    add similar visual meters. Example: In the resource bar we have 1000 units, divide it into 5 parts by tracing the entire bar, dividing it into 5 bars of 20%, or 4 bars of 25%. This division can be different according to the class or standardize all bars with 10 divisions, adding a lighter outline based on each full bar I have, so it is easy to calculate that I need 2 bars for a skill of 200 resources.

    Directional feedback / Suggestions

    Warlock - WL (Soulweaver)
    I will talk about what I saw in some specific points here about the WL Healer.
    1- As I mentioned earlier, I am enjoying the mechanics you are working on, but ... Where is my Soul Puppet ???? After I started playing WL healer I spent messes telling my friends that Soul Puppet should have some healing function in Soulweaver, can you imagine my frustration when seeing that it was replaced by a random glow? Is there a specific reason why Soul Puppet cannot do this same lifepark healing service?

    Suggestion:

    If it is a programming case, copy the Soul Puppet code and call it Life Soul Puppet kkkkkkkk. But seriously, take him back to Soulweaver and take Lifepark out of kindness.

    2- Speaking of Soulweaver, why did you need to change the name of the resource? I may be talking nonsense and obvious things that I have no idea. But Soulspark is a very functional name in my view.

    Suggestion:

    if you really need some nomenclature change for easier programming, since in Healer we have a bar of 1000 and in DPS a bar of 30, put Life Souspark, and it's all right, it is more cozy for those who play with 2 loadouts, are familiar names, add a Life in the middle and everything is fine kkkkkkk done you did with Lifemark.

    3- The work you did with Immolation Spirits (now Soul Barrier) is just amazing, I have no words to describe how happy and impacted I was to see what you did with this Daily, which is the most unsalted thing that the warlock currently has on the live server. Soul Barrier could have an effect of 15 seconds and a little more magnitude. I would love to see such fabulous work added to Soul Pact. When I use this skill I have the feeling that it just failed, and that I just threw my AP away.

    Suggestion:

    make an improved animation, similar to the current one but spread across the area of effect, close to the ground and add more allies who can take advantage of this effect increasing to 6 or 8, making it more effective in Trial, ( you can add an aura of green soul energy), similar to what the mobes receive in the insurrection of avernus and runic undermonatian encounters. Increase the duration time to 20 seconds, add an effect of increasing 1% of damage to the affected allies for every 2% of damage that the WL loses with a maximum of 5 stacks. This will cause allies to have 5% more damage after 10 seconds of daily effect and give them another 10 seconds to use this bonus.

    4- Warlock's Bargain without cleanser and CD is something that does not make sense to me, I understand that its duration has been doubled and that it also serves to recover resources, but I am thinking of a reality where our requests will be heard and the ways to use the tab for regenerating resources will come back somehow. The point is, this skill was very effective in healing, even with an effect lasting only 5 seconds.

    Suggestion:

    revert the changes of this skill and return your healing option, it can continue with the 10 seconds of effect and not regenerate resource, and have a cure / cost similar to Vampiric Embrace, but with the option of cleanser, in contrast to differentiate, add more cost and magnitude in Vampiric Embrace something between 400 magnitude for healing and cost of 250 for it to be similar to healing in the area around the PL, and add it in HellPact. (I'm not trying to give suggestions on how to balance the game in mathematical terms, they are only approximate examples that you can evaluate if possible)

    5- Speaking of Feat, the Feats seem very simple and generic, besides being totally against my view of the game where yes, you can have the new mechanics of the tab and still use it to regenerate resources, the Tier in which the HellPact is not interesting in a reality where we live in the NW with Shields for all Healers, not to mention that loss of options like life bind takes away a WL class feature that I always hit on the chest to talk about, which is the ways of damage reduction we can provide to allies.

    Suggestion:

    you can take into account that HellPact should not only address specific skills, but add shield mechanics to almost all skills that generate healing similar to what PL does and so it should be for CL. Soon we have some adjustment possibilities at hand so that these Shield mechanics can be better elaborated. What we are looking for here is an option where any of the 3 Healers can choose between being responsible for the shield in a trial or responsible for the HoT, this makes it possible for PL also to play without generating a shield but more focused on gross healing. Regarding a general Shield mechanic for the classes, it would be very interesting if all shields protect only 50% of the damage and or another 50% were removed from the red life, this would give an additional purpose to have healers without a focus on shield.

    Make the Shield system part of the class mechanics of Healer's paragons in general. Adding a Class Features or Feat that changes the value of the Shield generated by a HoT. This counting on the current mechanics of non-accumulation of shield that I particularly think should remain. The reverse can also be done by doing basic HoT healer mechanics and adding a way to convert this to Shield, I really don't know if that would make any difference.

    One option that I would like to ask you to evaluate with a lot of affection is the option to make Feats mutable as well as Class Features, because in a reality where you choose to add the shield conversion to HoT in Feats, we have to keep in mind that we would have to have set up 2 Loadouts just to heal, and not all players have more than 2 Base Loadouts. I honestly think that this change will be of help to all classes mainly due to the amount of changes that are coming. For this reason, I really ask you to carefully consider the possibility of leaving Feats open for instant and free changes at any time.


    Returning to Feats, for these builds to be more appropriate, the interesting thing is that they put the shield manipulation Feat as Tier 1, so that new players get familiarized early with the differentiated healer options. Let's assume that you address these suggestions in this topic 5, we will then have 3 healer paragons with Shield in their mechanics, so Tier 1 can be composed of: option 1 (converts the shield generated by HoT). Option 2 (increase the generated shield value by 25%). With these options in the case of the PL we can even remove Critical Touch, or reformulate it. Especially because we have a 50% reduction in critical severity.


    To conclude this topic 5 considering the above changes as accepted, we can rethink the critical severity change, for a 100% healing restoration or even a 75% change. Thus making the raw and HoT cures to be slightly stronger, since we would have a Feat for shield healer that will already increase it by 25%. (good, but in this case there are already mathematical questions in which I am not a good connoisseur).

    Warlock, Cleric, Paladin

    General Suggestions for Class Specific Mechanics.

    Considering issues of class particularity, a job would have to be done with a little bit of precise characteristics, perhaps with the help of D&D sources, which I don't know much about. However, I would like to raise some suggestions that may be feasible.
    1. A current singularity in warlock that I would like to see further explored is the transfer of damage from allies to WL, so Life Bind should remain, as well as new mitigation possibilities. (taking mathematics this can be balanced with the reduction of the total shield that the WL can add).
    Practical example: if you choose Feat Life Bind, which transfers 10% of the damage received from the group to WL, are all the powers that generate Infernal Barrier reduced by 15%, (because a reduction of 15% and not 10%)? because Life Bind works all the time, or you can reduce the shield by 10%, but it adds a condition where the lifebind only activates if the ally does not have a shield. this makes the feat also usable for a build without a shield. within these mechanics of choice, perhaps an option where the shield in the warlock is 25% stronger passively, since life bind usually kills WL currently with a certain frequency when all allies take damage together, eg Halaster skills.
    2. In this same mitigation idea is the reduction of 5% of the reduced damage to enemies with curse that was removed and placed against a very high DC. A passive that gave you this effect in almost 100% of the moments has now been removed and placed in an encounter of more than 25 seconds, and still has a duration of only 6, this is not very productive compared to what you have. These types of characteristics must be added to Class Features and Feats (preferably Feats open for exchange).
    3. Imagine the WL as a damage sponge where it sacrifices its HP in support of its allies, "Sacrifice" is the word that must revolve around Soulweaver. It is very pleasurable for the player, when using warlock bargain and know that he has lost 10% of his HP to heal allies, or even when using the Tab without something to exchange HP for healing resources, these types of functions should prevail in mechanics of Warlock. And all of this can be balanced by changing the magnitudes and or% of Infernal Barrier that he can add.
    4. Return the curse to Soulweaver, find a role for it. Example enemies with curse when hitting allies have 5% of the damage done passed to the warlock. Things like that, there are ways to add the characteristic sacrifice to WL.
    5. Channeling skills such as CL's Astral Shield and PL's Daily prevent players from automatically using them, remove the channeling, allowing PL and CL to use other skills while using the examples above, as well as WL was free to use Soul Barrier.
    6. Add stronger characteristics to the CL, such as damage buffs for allies, just as the WL can be seen as a damage sponge based on sacrificing your own HP, the CL can be seen as a divine energy with blessings, bonuses and auras. Add those characteristics to the CL and use the same Shields and HoT reduction artifice that it can put on allies to make things balanced.

    7. PL is a plate ready for certain mechanics, it would be very productive if we found a suitable function for the use of your stamina bar.
    Practical Example 1: allies who received the PL shield receive the divine blessing. Divine blessing converts 5% of the damage received to the PL which in turn has that reduced value of your stamina.
    Practical Example 2: Casting skills with Shift pressed increases the power of your next cure by 5% in exchange for X stamina value.
    Practical Example 3: Hold Shift for 2 seconds to channel divine resistance. Divine resistance consumes 50% of your stamina bar to add Divine resistance to nearby allies, leaving them immune to control for 2 seconds, divine resistance persists in allies for 5 seconds. If the allies take damage greater than 25% of their maximum HP during the 5 seconds, they receive a 200 magnitude healing, which consumes 20 deity for each ally that is lasted by the Divine Resistance. (remembering that these numbers are just for example, focus on the mechanics behind the example).
    Practical Example 4: This one can even be a class mechanic. Whenever the PL receives damage with the Shift pressed, it converts part of the lost stamina to HoT for the allies (lost value of stamina vs cure vs cost of divinity), understand that I don't want stamina to be a second divinity bar, on the contrary it can serve as an aid only, but all healing interactions with stamina must consume adequate divinity.
    Practical Example 5: when using Daily Power the PL activates its maximum aura, doubling the value of its auras (Class Features) for 15 seconds, adding the Aura Block effect, for allies within an area of 40 units. All damage received by allies with a damage limit of up to 15% of their maximum HP causes the PL to also receive the same damage, however in the form of DoT that will be automatically blocked by your stamina bar, for each X stamina value lost by the DoT in order to generate X HoT value for allies who received the damage. This effect can only occur if stamina> 30%.
    Realize how there are countless possibilities to bring new mechanics and singularities to the classes, especially for Paladin, because it has a bar that is little used in the healer paragon.

    I really hope people read everything kkkkkk, forgive me for the exaggeration in the text, I hope it helps other members of the forum to bring new ideas. And I hope that some of these ideas will help Devs to do more dynamic healing work for players. Have a great week.

    It's like I suggested in my post, to use your imagination and still continue to rely on D&D to add unique feats to the classes. And the Paladin has a resource that in the healer paragon is almost dead which is his stamina. At the end of the post I gave several examples for class sigularities and for the paladin I gave 5 Examples, maybe a lot I didn't understand well, since I translate everything into English using the google translator (sorry for that), but you can have one have a good idea of the possibilities that exist. I say this regardless of whether Overshield is removed or universalized for all healers, the possibilities work independently of this
  • zyronaxzyronax Member Posts: 153 Arc User
    > @rayzer8912 said:
    > So, after reworking my cleric completely after Mod 16, spending a fortune for companions and having the correct mods on my gear, now all of that is pretty much useless. Do you ever consider the cost of time/money/energy people have put into the characters before you make these sweeping changes?

    Cryptic has demonstrated time and again that they don't care. Additionally, it is not at all beyond the realm of the plausible, that they see it as a 'bonus' that players will have to sucked back in to their skinner box as this increases the possibility of you/us spending more money.

    Don't do it. Their incompetence shouldn't be financially rewarded.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User

    The biggest problem with this suggestion is that overshields function as stretching the HP bar in ways that HOTs and heals can't. Even if everyone had the ability to give overshields, it would still actually be a problem because it changes how the devs have to try to kill us. As we are ALREADY seeing, content has to be designed to pierce the shields. In order to overcome the shields and still put our health in danger they have to raise the amount of damage exponentially, because if the mechanics don't threaten us then they will be ignored. It contributes to the need for mechanics that KILL us instead of mechanics that damage us. Which creates a situation in which the shields are then required because you CANNOT survive without them or to situations which just outright kill you thereby skipping the shield entirely. No other build is acceptable unless there is a second healer present. And then the second healer has to not have shields so they don't interfere. So no matter how awesome and unique and fun you make the choices, *there are no choices* because shield is the only choice. Then because we get more powerful and get more HP and more shield, the damage the enemies do has to be raised even more and more mechanics will need to be introduced which straight up kill us. It becomes a vicious cycle. Exactly the same vicious cycle we saw for years with powersharing in fact ...

    Exactly, which they told us with mod 16 they were fixing, because we were all OP. They wanted healers to be relevant.

    Well, having mechanics where we can be killed with a oneshot doesn't make healers relevant, unless your a paladin healer, and you can give everyone a shield. It makes warlocks second choice, because they have good HOT, it makes clerics a "well... I guess, if we CAN'T get a warlock...." because clerics have a HAMSTER HOT, but have cleanse, at least....

    Please... make us RELEVANT!!! that is ALL we are asking for! I will still be able to play content, because I run with a group of friends who will take me through, but I can't see me being accepted into a group for this new trial, I can see plenty of... "oh, a cleric healer, na, I'll only run with Pally/warlock heal combo, thanks for the invite though!". I'll have to get my DPS spec up to scratch to get runs in the new trial.
    This happened earlier in the game too. At the end of mod 5 the culprit was lifesteal. DPS could just focus on damage and lifesteal kept them alive no matter what. They "fixed" it in mod6 by letting monsters one-shot pretty much everybody except the tank. Archers in Cragmire could two-shot any DPS and had insane fire rates. The situation now is pretty similar. Most stuff will kill DPS straightaway.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    Players need controlled lifesteal. Say, like a boon as they were in the past. On hit, chance to heal up to 10% of your HP based on your damage with an ICD of 1-3 seconds. Leave the chance at 10% and that's it. Lifesteal would've been fine if it was controlled better.

    This would allow people to take in newer healers instead of just going for the top tier players.
  • jbball92#2946 jbball92 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    > @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:
    > Players need controlled lifesteal. Say, like a boon as they were in the past. On hit, chance to heal up to 10% of your HP based on your damage with an ICD of 1-3 seconds. Leave the chance at 10% and that's it. Lifesteal would've been fine if it was controlled better.
    >
    > This would allow people to take in newer healers instead of just going for the top tier players.

    A blood theft enchant already does this
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    That's really just a way of circumventing requirements though. If a healer isn't ready and capable to do the content, then they shouldn't be doing it, the same as everybody else. That's not a reason to start reintroducing mechanics that were removed to increase the need for the role to exist. If my DPS isn't good enough I shouldn't go. If I can't hold aggro I shouldn't go. If I can't keep the team alive I shouldn't go. The game can't be designed around "I might get a bad healer".

    Besides, it's already easy enough to make a healer completely unnecessary in everything outside of ToMM and Zariel.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    > @jbball92#2946 said:
    > > @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:
    > > Players need controlled lifesteal. Say, like a boon as they were in the past. On hit, chance to heal up to 10% of your HP based on your damage with an ICD of 1-3 seconds. Leave the chance at 10% and that's it. Lifesteal would've been fine if it was controlled better.
    > >
    > > This would allow people to take in newer healers instead of just going for the top tier players.
    >
    > A blood theft enchant already does this

    Yeah with a large icd, low efficiency and generally better options. It shouldn't be an option but an addition.
  • jbball92#2946 jbball92 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    > @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:
    > Players need controlled lifesteal. Say, like a boon as they were in the past. On hit, chance to heal up to 10% of your HP based on your damage with an ICD of 1-3 seconds. Leave the chance at 10% and that's it. Lifesteal would've been fine if it was controlled better.
    >
    > This would allow people to take in newer healers instead of just going for the top tier players.

    A blood theft enchant already does this> @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:
    > > @jbball92#2946 said:
    > > > @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:
    > > > Players need controlled lifesteal. Say, like a boon as they were in the past. On hit, chance to heal up to 10% of your HP based on your damage with an ICD of 1-3 seconds. Leave the chance at 10% and that's it. Lifesteal would've been fine if it was controlled better.
    > > >
    > > > This would allow people to take in newer healers instead of just going for the top tier players.
    > >
    > > A blood theft enchant already does this
    >
    > Yeah with a large icd, low efficiency and generally better options. It shouldn't be an option but an addition.
    It literally has a 3 sec cooldown at a 10% chance like you just asked for lol
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User
    You're missing the point. It shouldn't replace something else at a high level. It should be an addition, once again.
  • jbball92#2946 jbball92 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    > @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:
    > You're missing the point. It shouldn't replace something else at a high level. It should be an addition, once again.


    Na. Sounds like you should try a bloodtheft AND lifedrinker
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User

    > @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

    > You're missing the point. It shouldn't replace something else at a high level. It should be an addition, once again.





    Na. Sounds like you should try a bloodtheft AND lifedrinker

    I have. And you're missing my point, once again. The point is to increase, not have a sidegrade or a downgrade.
  • sakura#4709 sakura Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    I really, really wish every items were account bound. Not a character.

    As other people said, creating a main character is pain.

    I started cleric because I love being healers. but then they made templock, I was no more healer I had to sit in corner just buff people (I like buffing too. As long as I can also heal)
    So I gave up on my cleric and made warlock. Got all the good items including legendary mounts , all <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> etc

    And M16, paladin shield is amazingly good so I have to make paladin! :/ I still play all classes but... As I said if everything was account bound, people wouldn't complain so much because every changes come, we can change character to what we like the most the time :)
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User

    > @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

    > You're missing the point. It shouldn't replace something else at a high level. It should be an addition, once again.





    Na. Sounds like you should try a bloodtheft AND lifedrinker

    I have. And you're missing my point, once again. The point is to increase, not have a sidegrade or a downgrade.
    I'm pretty sure you're missing the point. He's telling you that if you want to circumvent needing a healer, that SHOULD be a sidegrade because the game is moving away from that, and it shouldn't swing back that direction. The ability to do that already exists more than it should.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 922 Arc User
    hi @asterdahl and other this thread visitors..

    You guys want balace between Warlock paladin and clerics in healing??

    If you want then here is only way to do so. And I mean only way.


    First of all time to remove this idiocy of classes and THE CLASS, thing in this game.
    We have healers, warlock, cleric and THE healer is paladin.

    In order to balace them all and make sure that non of them stay or become THE healer, all classes should have strong side and weakness.


    Some claim here that need remove paladin shielding from game.. Nonesense.
    All such suggestion is only for sake to take move Crown THE HEALER from paldin to other class. either warlock or cleric. Which lead so same problem once again, no balance and again blickering that THE HEALER is now overpowered.


    So lets say you all agree need to balance, then here is how it need to be done.



    Paladin -
    Shielding ability remain same, no changes required
    Healing - Paladins healing powers convert to heal over time. Lets say paladin power heal now 1000 HP per x power usage.
    With change would be >> 500 HP instant recover and rest 500 HP restored via Heal over time..

    note: heal over time do not stack and only refresh.

    Reasons:
    Paladin have shielding ability, when you apply to allies and yourself, they are first ones who receive hit, not HP. So while players with barrier running/fighting heal over time restore part of HP.


    Cleric -
    Healing - same no change.
    Extra: when cleric use it's healing powers, apply temp buff, which generate barrier over time for x time duration.. ( heal over time mechanic)

    Note: buff do not stack only refresh.


    Reasons: This change provide similar outcome to paldin yet, insted granting high quanity shield per power usage, buf generate part shield over time. Thats mean, to reach high quanity will require time and use healing multiple times.
    Also, while this buf is up and temp barrier is generate, it allow cleric get some time to rest and restore part of
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,042 Arc User

    > @gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

    > You're missing the point. It shouldn't replace something else at a high level. It should be an addition, once again.





    Na. Sounds like you should try a bloodtheft AND lifedrinker

    I have. And you're missing my point, once again. The point is to increase, not have a sidegrade or a downgrade.
    I'm pretty sure you're missing the point. He's telling you that if you want to circumvent needing a healer, that SHOULD be a sidegrade because the game is moving away from that, and it shouldn't swing back that direction. The ability to do that already exists more than it should.
    That's the thing, it's NOT replacing a healer. It would have more effect in solo play than group. If nothing should be an upgrade, the game would stagnate.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    If you want personal heals while soloing, there are LOTS of options. There is no need to reintroduce mechanics that will further trivialize and replace the heal role. There are potions, healthstones, bloodtheft, lifedrinker, and multiple insignia bonuses. There are even companions that heal you. If you don't want to use any of those because you'd have to change something to do so, well that's the kind of the point of the way those specific options were left when lifesteal was wholesale removed. You want to gain the ability to self heal, so you have to choose to give something up in return because no one is going to be a swiss army knife anymore. It's a choice you have to make, and it's a designed choice. These options are already more than enough self healing to replace a healer not just in solo content but in dungeons. Adding in more by reintroducing lifesteal as a boon is just a bad idea given the direction the devs want the game to go.
  • sakura#4709 sakura Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    Just a little suggestion, I'd love it if DC and SW heals also have something special other than just heal (like pallys shield)

    And DC, I'd like to have a feat to give team and self AP like the old cleric! I loved how we used to be able to spam daily with it , it was sooo fun! :)

    And SW, I'd love to have debuff enemies like when they were templock, they could put curse on enemies and they got like 20% more dmg from everything! That was awesome.

    I think something like this, each healers having original powers would make every healers valuable and more fun to play!
  • keadron#3660 keadron Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    @asterdahl
    Since healing now has the reduced crit severity, would it be possible to go back to needing the same amount of crit as damage? This would allow supports to focus on other stats, armor pen for example, to make what little damage we do feel somewhat rewarding.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    If lifesteal was reintroduced (I don't think it would be), I would do it as follows:
    1. Lifesteal does not instantly heal you, instead the damage you lifesteal goes into a "pool" which heals you over time, capped at a rate of 10% of your hitpoints per second. By default it heals you for 2% of the total accumulated value of the pool, so you would need to fill the pool with 5x your total hitpoints before it reached that.
    2. The lifesteal stat lowers your final damage and shifts the lost damage into the lifesteal pool. Say you would have hit an enemy for 100 with 0% lifesteal. With 10% lifesteal, you will instead hit them for 90 and the remaining 10 damage goes into the lifesteal "pool."
    3. Lifesteal would be an offensive (not a defensive) stat on items, competing with other offensive stats.
    4. The pool would have a cap at 10x your hitpoints, to prevent you from having an indefinite source of healing.
    5. The rate of healing dynamically adjusts upwards to account for more hp been in the pool (up to the 10% cap) but does not dynamically adjust downwards until the pool reaches 0, at which point it resets. This is to ensure the pool eventually depletes.
    This does 2 things:
    1. It prevents lifesteal from making healers invalidated, because there is a maximum rate lifesteal can heal you.
    2. It introduces a tradeoff between damage and survival.
    I don't see lifesteal ever coming back, but if it did that is how I would do it.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 922 Arc User

    If lifesteal was reintroduced (I don't think it would be), I would do it as follows:

    1. Lifesteal does not instantly heal you, instead the damage you lifesteal goes into a "pool" which heals you over time, capped at a rate of 10% of your hitpoints per second.
    2. The lifesteal stat lowers your final damage and shifts the lost damage into the lifesteal pool. Say you would have hit an enemy for 100 with 0% lifesteal. With 10% lifesteal, you will instead hit them for 90 and the remaining 10 damage goes into the lifesteal "pool."
    3. Lifesteal would be an offensive (not a defensive) stat on items, competing with other offensive stats.
    This does 2 things:
    1. It prevents lifesteal from making healers invalidated, because there is a maximum rate lifesteal can heal you.
    2. It introduces a tradeoff between damage and survival.
    I don't see lifesteal ever coming back, but if it did that is how I would do it.
    Why not simply take pre mod 16 life steal and change so it would be bound to weapon damage rather dealt damage.
    I think this method would be easier to implement..

    However, as you wrote by yourself, >I don't see lifesteal ever coming back<

    For developers took lot of time to remove it from game and rebalance classes, with life steal got reintroduced, it would require whole game remodeling once again.. And I dount that team would go same path again. It's costly and time consuming and once again mess up any balance. Not mentioned players who spend time to farm or spend money for heal companions would be in rage.

    Anyways, while it's good to have some theories about how to bring back life steal, I think it's not time for it neither place.
    And for now it would be better to focus on current healing system and it's problems and look way how solve them.

    I assume mod 19 will go live rather soon, so no big changes can be done only some teaking here and there.

    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • xander#0631 xander Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    asterdahl said:


    Currently there are no plans to change channel divinity for arbiter which already has its own unique interaction with channel divinity. Generally, the arbiter is not channeling divinity except to convert their judgement gauge into divinity. In regards to bastion of health—since the arbiter's version of bastion of health is currently not divided among the number of targets healed, it is still a fairly decent spot heal. In fact, due to the high rate with which the arbiter can recover divinity, we saw the arbiter doing a lot of very strong healing in our closed testing for this module to the point that we may have to make some adjustments. Please give it a try, I think you'll find the arbiter still a capable spot healer if you choose to be.

    i'm just trying random stuff, but if an arbiter cleric can be a capable spot healer, so does a justicar paladin?


    we have too many stat to cap to be good tank, that reduce a lot our power making our heals a joke (i tried in IC and i healed for 55k, i have 120k power and stat capped for IC, here i specify, because if someone can do some test and give an answer he know from where my doubt came)

    as tanks we shouldn't slot heal, i agreee with this, but the same can be said about arbiter, as a dps he shouldn't need to use heal; so if an arbiter can why we can't?
    we even have a feat based on divine touch 'if you heal another player, you get healed for 100% of what you healed' that is useless, i can get healed by 55k, i have 800k, enemies deal ~1 mill damage (plus tactical are not bis for dps anymore)

    someone started a discussion on this problem (paladin justicar healing less that other tank self healing), if an arbiter with good stat to do his job use a heal -->he heal (it's inefficent, but can be done); if a justicar with good stat to do his job use a heal --> he heal less that a 75 silver potion, and can do it only 3 times, then we need a lot of time to recharge our divinity (with all the problem a empty divinity will give).
    consider that an arbiter spend like 5 sec to recharge his divinity (2 at-will+0,5sec pray = ~ half divinity back) where a justicar spend an eternity.

    is this intended? in which case i'd advise to remove or change the feat on divine touch to make it somehow usefull, like you share heals with the player you healed for x sec (you get healed, they get healed) or they generate aggro for you for x sec or you redirect 50% of the damege taken from them for x sec, you increase your hp by the amount heled for x sec, etc

    is this unintended? please fix this so that even us can be spot healer, like increase the magnitude of divine touch (to make it useful increase by a lot, or adjust by increasing maglitude and decreasing divinity cost) or make it a heal over time with a 500 magnitude per second.
    all this keeping in mind that, as said, a justicar divinity management is a lot harder that an arbiter



    reality is what most recognize as true
  • midental#5256 midental Member Posts: 130 Arc User



    Sharp, the point is that one shot damage erase all healing power. We need to evaporate one shot damage in favor of DoT so healing became usefull..... if not, blueshields will be the only way in most contents.... because they PREVENT damage. With heal i can heal only damaged ppl.... and most of the times is useless with one shot mec.....

    That is a different problem, although it is (also) a problem. I would resolve it by increasing the frequency of damage, but also lowering its individual values (lots of hits for 100k as opposed to single hit for 1m). I would also add a decay to shields, so they no longer just sit there. After 2 seconds, they would fall off at a rate of 20% of the initial shield/second, so after 7 seconds, no matter what happens, the shield is gone.

    This incentivizes timing shields well and not just casting them and then forgetting.
    Great solution. Dev, take a look at this one please.

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