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I hope the new M19 trial is not P2W like tower of the mad mage

oxymaoxyma Member Posts: 30 Arc User
edited August 2020 in General Discussion (PC)
I hope
Post edited by oxyma on
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Comments

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 1,002 Arc User
    1 year of playing is almost double the amount of time it should take you to make a character that is more than able to run TOMM. What is it specifically you have to buy ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 243 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    I never spent a dime on this game and I was able to play ToMM 3 months after it was released, after I've been playing for 9 months.

    Anyway, ToMM unlocked to everyone at the same time. Zariel will probably be unlockable sooner for people who pay Zen to buy the new expedition pack. But it seems there will be nothing to win at all in this new trial, so I don't know if that qualifies as PTW :tongue:
    Post edited by carloswartune#5709 on
  • finmakinfinmakin Member Posts: 410 Arc User
    M19 trial is much harder than ToMM, and I love it.
    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • jmiller84jmiller84 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 188 Arc User
    Sorry man, but I didn't buy zen for the first time until the Triple Mount Pack was introduced, and even that was just enough to cover what zen I hadn't acquired via the ZAX. By that time I had LH weapons on all 8 of my playable toons (each class) as well as the Halaster's Whirly Whirlwind mount that requires 200 Scrolls of the Void.
    HR: Vretzen
    GWF: Vretzina
    OP: Vee
    DC: Evee
    CW: nezterV

    Leader - Valaraukari Ascension
  • finmakinfinmakin Member Posts: 410 Arc User
    oxyma said:

    F2P players can't even finish tower of the mad mage ( 1 YEAR AFTER ITS RELEASE ) with all the P2W requirements, if the did the same things with the new M19 trial, more players could quit the game...

    ToMM requires top stats (include INCOMING HEALS), besides this it also requires a group of dedicated people who is able to face Halaster as a oiled machine with a single mind.
    I have learned (and with me the group I regurally join) that the hard way, trust me ToMM is not designed for people who like achievments being served on a silver platter...
    Work on it and get rid of the so called zerg mentality, it doesnt work in ToMM... And surely won't work in M19 trial..

    With all respect,
    A stinky dwarf

    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • nic1985nic1985 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 401 Arc User
    Unfortunate some players keep going back and forth between contents they think is gated behind a pay wall.

    If ToMM was designed for everyone, then we all be happy with Lionsheart weapons and legendary rings the first week it unlock. There will always be contents not accessible for everyone until newer contents replace it and it gets nerf.

    The game is a business model and therefore need to sustain itself by enticing players to spend real money otherwise it would be a dead game. To justify people spending real money and keep the game alive, they need contents so hard, you need the best items/upgrades to be competitive and complete the contents.
  • fademist#5406 fademist Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    oxyma said:

    F2P players can't even finish tower of the mad mage ( 1 YEAR AFTER ITS RELEASE ) with all the P2W requirements, if the did the same things with the new M19 trial, more players could quit the game...

    ofc they can if they r build their toon properly and use their AD on smart way ...
    and this game have the tools to even gather zen with AD u farm from randoms....
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,508 Arc User
    Yes, the new trial is hard, very hard. But with the first episode of M19, they are planning a Story Mode version for those casual players who don't want to put the time and effort to be BiS.
  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 484 Arc User
    I mean, basically what you say is 'don't make endgame content because not everyone can play it' but this should be the motivation. Gear up, get new stuff, upgrade companions, insignias etc. etc. - at least a tiny bit of motivation has to be there to reach and play endgame content.

    There will be a story version of the new trial though. I think almost everyone can play this version. The normal one is harder than TOMM though.
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • finmakinfinmakin Member Posts: 410 Arc User

    oxyma said:

    F2P players can't even finish tower of the mad mage ( 1 YEAR AFTER ITS RELEASE ) with all the P2W requirements, if the did the same things with the new M19 trial, more players could quit the game...

    You mean casual player can't do it without paying. There are many F2P players can do it. Many veteran players are F2P players in top endgame level. The chance is casual player can't do it even if they are paying.

    For the P2W players, where do they buy their stuff from? Most likely from F2P players. Zen store has only limited stuff to help building a character.

    For this game, to win, you have to play because most BiS stuff cannot be bought and $ can help to speed up certain area but not all. F2P players can get 99% BiS stuff from the game without paying $. They pay it using 'time' which casual players do not have. Yes, casual F2P players may not like it.
    I'm such a F2P player, have worked hard to become what I am now (a stinky dwarf with swetty feets), a tank who have the wish sometimes he can split himself in multiple ones due I have to decline regurally requests for joining groups when Im already committed to one (with exceptions).
    Day in and day out I busted my behind off to build on my tank from scratch to endgame, and I'm proud of it since I know (and don't want to get the good items on a silver platter.

    But I have to admit and I pay some dollars to cryptic (for traveling purposes)..
    There is no such thing as not being able to finish content in my eyes, those players need a push in the right direction since most of them are from the zerg breed and thats history.

    Im happy to help them out, give some advises after a dungeon run then they have to do it by themselfes.
    Just contact me @finmakin and i will help (if possible)

    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,285 Arc User

    oxyma said:

    F2P players can't even finish tower of the mad mage ( 1 YEAR AFTER ITS RELEASE ) with all the P2W requirements, if the did the same things with the new M19 trial, more players could quit the game...

    You mean casual player can't do it without paying. There are many F2P players can do it. Many veteran players are F2P players in top endgame level. The chance is casual player can't do it even if they are paying.

    For the P2W players, where do they buy their stuff from? Most likely from F2P players. Zen store has only limited stuff to help building a character.

    For this game, to win, you have to play because most BiS stuff cannot be bought and $ can help to speed up certain area but not all. F2P players can get 99% BiS stuff from the game without paying $. They pay it using 'time' which casual players do not have. Yes, casual F2P players may not like it.
    Yes, but we don't have much of a social life outside the game either, do we? :lol:
    wb-cenders.gif
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,514 Arc User
    I just find it humorous that people keep tossing out 'pay-to-win' when there is nothing in the game that you win if you pay.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,285 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    I just find it humorous that people keep tossing out 'pay-to-win' when there is nothing in the game that you win if you pay.

    I get a kick out people telling us to just buy campaign completion tokens. Why would anyone want to "pay-not-to-play"? I just want decent content. Content where I am enthralled by a story, where I am part of the story and immersed. The story that continues with twists and turns and builds to a climatic end. Instead we get the same old hack and slash dungeons with no point as to why we should care to be there. I never did Tower of the Mad Mage with any of my characters. I barely touched Stardock (mod 17) because it was just a rehash of Undermountain this time with solo hack and slash runs.
    wb-cenders.gif
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,514 Arc User
    No, you can run those with party, too. :D
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    I still haven't spent anything and I finished ToMM.
  • finmakinfinmakin Member Posts: 410 Arc User

    I still haven't spent anything and I finished ToMM.

    Not even VIP for traveling purposes ?
    Har, har :)

    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,514 Arc User
    finmakin said:

    I still haven't spent anything and I finished ToMM.

    Not even VIP for traveling purposes ?
    Har, har :)

    Trading in AD for Zen to purchase VIP does not require spending anything (meaning real money).
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,635 Arc User
    finmakin said:

    I still haven't spent anything and I finished ToMM.

    Not even VIP for traveling purposes ?
    Har, har :)

    I have VIP since it was first introduced in PC and never lose it. I did not pay any money to get it.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    +1 to the don't need to pay for VIP, can convert AD to Zen.

    However, there needs to be some incentive for ppl to spend real money otherwise the game won't survive.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    Posted in my alliance discord:
    For anyone looking to practice ToMM outside of alliance calls, there's a channel you can joined called ToMM_exp_training. Not sure how long it'll be open to freely join, but it currently is. If you're not sure how to join open channels, here's how:

    Click the cogwheel in the top left corner of your chat box
    Click the Custom Channels tab
    Type the channel name into the Join/Create box, in this case its tomm_exp_training
    Click the Join button

    There are requirements for this channel. They are:

    Phase 1 exp
    Capped Stats (80k armor pen, crit, accuracy for dps/tanks, 130k Combat Adv for dps)
    Tanks 700k HP
    DPS 170k Power (out of combat)
    Healers 140k Power (out of combat)

    Do not LFG/LFM until you have those stats.
    --------------------------------------
    They do have calls for phase 1 training, or you can start up your own. I am [email protected]#0847 in game, I tank and can help with tomm training if need. The stat requirements aren't hard to hit caps with companion gear, if you're having trouble figuring out your stat caps you can use Rainer's character builder, its really useful:
    https://www.patreon.com/RainerNW/posts?tag=CharacterBuilder&filters[tag]=CharacterBuilder

    It is free to download and use, its just on his patreon page.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,285 Arc User
    Question: Why can't I just be friends with Halaster like I can in the table top version?

    I think you all know my opinion of VIP by now, but in case you need a visual aid.


    wb-cenders.gif
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,285 Arc User
    I don't mind riding out, but I have used the teleport scrolls, they are cheaper than VIP. I can buy well over 3000 scrolls per month for the price of VIP in AD. I don't even make 100 trips a day! I have eight characters, and I send each to the adventure zone they need to work. They stay there until done, and then teleport to Sybella in Protector's Enclave. Where is there any zone you play that is "so deep" you can't get to a gate in 30 seconds? Don't tell me you are still playing Vellosk? :lol:
    wb-cenders.gif
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,635 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    My characters are challenged. They are walking with a peg leg.
    30 seconds is a lot for the Challenge of the God. Jump to different zone to do HE, to collect skill node, to have easy kill, somewhere that the mob can actually take 50% of your HP in reasonable time without actually killing me, go to SH quick to execute 3 daily, ...
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • reeper#9973 reeper Member Posts: 127 Arc User
  • regpeiregpei Member Posts: 86 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    I made a post about always being a few mods behind everyone else simply because I didn't understand what I needed to do to be ready for newer zones/content. I learned, and as @reeper#9973 says, I git gud. One person in particular pointed me in the right direction, once my character was "ready", I went to tomm. I was "drug to the finish line kicking and screaming" XD There are things to know to get to end game content, there are goals to set for your character, and UNWRITTEN requirements. Item level is a real crappy way to try and determin if your ready or not. I can be 26k with no bonding stones in and have 40k armor pen(low other stats too). I'm not gonna kill squat like that BUT I'm 26k and qualify for the new trial. If they'd lay out stat recommendations or prerequisites many more might get there.

    Everything you need is free in the game. You need to put in the time, and be aimed in the right direction when building your character and it can be 100% achieved for free. I've been playing this game a long time, I didn't spend much over the years. It's only been since completing tomm, getting weapons on most characters, did I start spending a few $$ in game. That was until I got ripped off(I feel I was, support doesn't agree) with the Hell Pit buyout. I've not spent a dime since.

    There is a puzzle you must solve to get the stats needed for new content. That puzzle is rings and pet gear mainly, also your equipment for their bonuses NOT THEIR ITEM LEVEL! If you build for item level, ya may as well kiss the hopes of tomm goodbye. Building for item level is probably enough to play the campaign content, but not these trials, they're no joke! And before the 1% starts chiming in that they can do it with a wooden sword, most can't do it at all. I can now do it with less because I've learned the mechanics. My damage is much higher than when I started, because I know the mechanics. To learn this with less, can be a big problem for most.
  • feanor70118feanor70118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,163 Arc User
    hastati96 said:

    I mean, basically what you say is 'don't make endgame content because not everyone can play it' but this should be the motivation. Gear up, get new stuff, upgrade companions, insignias etc. etc. - at least a tiny bit of motivation has to be there to reach and play endgame content.

    There will be a story version of the new trial though. I think almost everyone can play this version. The normal one is harder than TOMM though.

    No. The motivation should be to actually have fun playing the game.
    TOMM requires a completely absurd combination of defensive stats.
    This is by design, since before TOMM, DPS players knew for five years that all they really needed was offensive stats.
    Having to completely rebuild a character that took enormous effort and time to get into its current form - not long after the mod 16 rebuild caused most enchantments to become bound - is a cash grab for coalescent wards.

    Also, TOMM just isn't any fun. It's utterly boring. Oh look, it's a wizard. Oh, look it's some instadeath nonsense that will kill you unless you have 400k hitpoints (100k more than you can have without a whole expensive slew of companions, mounts and buffs) and 80k defense. Oh look, it's some more boring content that requires players to group together. Oh look, it's a boring, endlessly repetitive mechanic that requires players to spread out. The dev team has been awful at designing dungeons, events and trials since mod 6 but this is by far the worst thing yet. There's no element of exploration, there's no obvious sense to it, there's just a whole lot of slowly grinding away the boss' HP while gathering and spreading, gathering and spreading ad nauseam.

    The best thing they could do would be to wind the game back to mod 5 and - for HRs - give us back the mod 2 hybrid. Give us back the foundry. Make pvp worthwhile as it hasn't been since obsessive p2w guilds started ruining it.

    No one's asking for rewards on a silver platter. We're asking for realistic content that respects the way players have been building their characters for years without requiting months' worth of grinding to earn AD when the queue system has been all but destroyed by some senseless, obviously, predictably awful decisions.

    I'm not touching this mess again until it gets nerfed in a couple of mods. I have work and other interests in my life and nothing about this dull content could make the required AD grinding worth it.
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