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should we put unbound AD/ (items) in end-game content (ZC, TOMM)

superstevenshusuperstevenshu Member Posts: 187 Arc User
edited June 2020 in General Discussion (PC)
Recently there is a fierce discussion in discord about what should be included in the chest of end-game trials especially whether to put items there that can be sold for AD.

The answer is simple: decent amount of unbound AD (with other stuff like transmutation, etc.)

To understand it we need to know first what's the incentives of people keep playing the game?
In most of the mmorpg game these ones are the major incentives:

To be stronger
To complete a challenge
To prove they are the best player
To social
To have fun
To make "money" in the game
To look better

It doesn't matter if you are casual player or end-game player, as long as we can feed most of people's incentives and keep more people wanna play it is a success. It is all about balancing (if you have played mmorpg games for long you should understand what I am talking about) everyone would agree AD is an important incentives for some certain people, but how much should we put there in the chest of the most end-game content like ZC or TOMM where only 1%-5% players do it everyday. It is not a simple question but we can assume some extreme cases:

1. put 0 AD there, together with other bound stuff like transmutations, better gears (celestial weapons), etc.
2. put 20m AD in the chest, together with all other bound stuff.
3. put 200k ADthere, together with all other bound stuff.

If we do 1, many end-game players are gonna lose interest and stop playing soon; and for casual players they would lack incentives to gear up for the challenge, so they would not do the trial too. ---->fail

if we do 2, 1% of the players are gonna make billions of AD and farm the trial everyday 24/7, while 99% of the players would feel so sad becuase they spend a lot money and can not access to the trial in time before the profit in AH shrinks, so they gonna quit the game or feel salty ----> still fail, becuase devs takes the fun out of 99% people, and only care for the 1% of players which may already be rich enough.

if we do 3, most of the end-game players who aim only for AD will still farm the new trial; mid-level players will keep grinding until they can get access to the trial, and finally they will play together with other end-game players.

The analysis is more complicate, but we get the idea, simple do 1 or 2 is not working, we need to balance it so as to improve incentives.

(For more discussion feel free to join NW pve discord: https://discord.gg/9tPhPgg)
Post edited by superstevenshu on
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Comments

  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    There are other options, the halaster cape is an example, but in general I agree with you. The problem is that all the content in neverwinter has huge problems with loot. Thats why most casual / mid players look at ToMM.

    If every player could farm as his level something worthwile, the discussion would be much relaxed. The only time we had this balance was in module 0. When there were people farming and selling T1 sets, other people farming T2 sets and other people farming weapons in CN.

    After that, the loot started to be bound and lots of players started playing other games.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
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  • midental#5256 midental Member Posts: 134 Arc User
    huge problem, in my opinion, is that have to respect player formation groups. 2 healers 2 tanks ecc ecc. Not break mec or use shortcuts....
  • guyofgisburneguyofgisburne Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    Your second argument makes 0 sense since based on what is the price 20 million AD? Is this the numbers you take from previous experience you and other players have had.

    The prices were this ridiculously high because at the start of ToMM launch 2 groups were able to run it and profit off the trial. This atm in the new trial isn't the case more and more people are starting to run ZC and understanding the mechanics unlike ToMM where a group of maybe 30-40 people understood the mechanics and learned how to do the trial. As soon as more people started to do the trial and starting to complete it the prices instantly dropped by millions.

    I think with this trial it will be completely different because of the fact that more and more players are trying to learn the trial on preview ( Which previously wasn't the case only 2 groups were running it ).

    So basing arguments off that is a bad thing to do and I think your third argument is bad as well since we as end-game players decide on the prices on the market if only 1 group of people can run the trial they can base the prices of unbound loot on their own decision. The developers don't decide that its the people who run the content.

    Conclusion being the more people that run the trial the cheaper and more accessible the loot will be. If it happens to be like ToMM and only 2 groups manage to run the new trial the prices will probably be in the same kind of fashion depending on who can complete the trial.
  • ukspawnukspawn Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    I'm guessing this is stemming from the preview thread on Zariel trial rewards, a very long and ongoing discussion with multiple opinions, agreements and disagreements, which ultimately sums up the underlying issue. There will never be a perfect solution and those that dislike whatever the current arrangement will always be more vocal than those than enjoy have little/no issues with it, potentially making it seem worse than it is. The never-ending cycle.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want to seem like it's something we should just gloss over and forget but I personally feel that other than each person's personal stance being wildly different when taking into account a million and one different variables, the way forward would (and will) require massive change across the board. These changes will take time which some won't have patience or understanding for. I feel (hope) many of these changes have been roughly highlighted or hinted at on the Roadmap, which atleast shows a level of understanding. It's these bigger underlying changes that will help shape the current concerns such as this.

    There's always going to be an argument for and against a quick fix or solution for what is current and I guess from a developers point of view they'll always be weary of the bigger underlying changes to come and whether that deems the quick fix/change relevant enough.

    The rewards issue is so much bigger than Zariel, they are obviously very aware of this but it's going to require a massive re-working to tackle the issue and that's in the plan.

    With that said, there probably is a viable quick fix but it will never be enough or always be too much depending on who you aim it at. If we look at the reasoning and incentives behind playing the game and try to match the content and rewards to meet all those expectations, congratulations, you just created the world's most perfect mmorpg. Perhaps people are taking the developer name too literally.

    Looking at it from a broader and personal point of view, horizontal progression and re-working/scaling of older content is the way forward. From what I've seen mod 19 looks to touch on this as a starting point albeit with new content only. The (negative) response in general seems to focus purely on the trial, as if that's all mod 19 is bringing and that's literally, as above, because it's a focus point for a % part of the endgame community, that falls into another niche of specific type of players which falls into a specific type of incentive. Bottom line being, we all play for different things and more importantly, at different stages of progression, within our own personal time line of playing Neverwinter.

    Whatever solution is put forward for a specific (Zariel Trial) it will never appease everyone and whilst we can make comparatives to previous or existing content, it's always subject to change. Which brings me to my final point, it's preview so it's subject to change regardless and even when it goes live, it's still subject to change, at all times.

    So, we just sit back, say nothing and let them do what they're going to do? Of course not, don't be silly.

    We advocate for pearl only rewards behind rng in rng in rng in whatever is considered endgame content then go play the game.
  • xenocide#6119 xenocide Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    Having unbound items drop in chests is a nice idea because it makes them available to players who might not be able to run that content yet.
    Unbound ad is a terrible option though. Players with too much as drive up the prices on items making them unattainable for most players, ie alpha compy
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,507 Arc User
    Too much AD in the economy as it is and you want them to add more "unbound".
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • ukspawnukspawn Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    Totally, it's just finding an agreeable balance between the player base and within that, agreeable with developers, if and when it's actually taken into consideration.

    For the specifics of the trialendgame content I can't really say without bias because I took a long enough break from the game to find all content from mod 2 and onwards still enjoyable, that and everything previously mentioned.

    Direct AD rewards are absolutely NOT the answer though, without getting to personally opinionated anything AD related should not supersede older content, you're literally asking for something to be created specifically to be farmed by a minority, if that's what endgame is to you that's your call but I feel that kind of reward scheme should be horizontal and accessible to all, preferably through multiple means, it's what gives a game a much wider scope of appeal, not some single entity for the few. At the same time I see no harm in endgame content having more unique rewards that are not AD based.

    The argument that if you don't like the rewards you won't keep playing something is absurd yet at the same time absolutely pointing out the underlying issues that need to be (are being) addressed.
  • finmakinfinmakin Member Posts: 410 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Took me a long time and efforts to get ready for ToMM, so I might be one of the 1% few who runs ToMM on regular base...
    As far I can see all drops are unbound and can be freely distributed and since I just run it for fun (and have a good time with group) the drops are for me secondary since I mostly give them away to Guild/Alliance players who need it...

    Perhaps I am elitist.
    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • ukspawnukspawn Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    finmakin said:

    Took me a long time and efforts to get ready for ToMM, so I might be one of the 1% few who runs ToMM on regular base...
    As far I can see all drops are unbound and can be freely distributed and since I just run it for fun (and have a good time with group) the drops are for me secondary since I mostly give them away to Guild/Alliance players who need it...

    Perhaps I am elitist.

    Not that it needs to be said but, no, not at all. Again this is just one of so many differing opinions and approaches to content.

    Whilst a pessimistic response could take what you said with a pinch of salt there are undoubtedly many players like yourself that have that approach and so forms another entire different outlook and response to how endgame content and rewards reshaping can be seen.
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 243 Arc User
    I agree that the trials should have decent rewards, but giving refined AD on chests is a terrible idea. Inflation is already bad as is.

    To be honest, the game needs a complete rework on how rewards are done. The profession system could be used to that end: if each dungeon drops a specific unbound material and all materials are required at some point in the crafting process, all dungeons become rewarding. Unfortunately, I don't think the masterwork update later this year will do anything like this, it will probably be just some Rank 6 recipes and explorer maps.
  • sriram#1646 sriram Member Posts: 71 Arc User
    I don't like the Idea of Unbound Items dropping from chests. Everything should be bound to Char/ Account and Provide other way to get the best weapons and gear instead of just running the Trial / Dungeon like (M16 Watcher Set). Trials shouldn't be like repetitive content.
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    Too much AD in the economy as it is and you want them to add more "unbound".

    I don't think adding more unbound items will add AD into the economy. In fact increasing the turnover through the AH should remove it via the 10% cut. I'm pretty sure the only thing that adds AD into the economy is converting RAD to AD.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Member Posts: 1,633 Arc User

    Recently there is a fierce discussion in discord about what should be included in the chest of end-game trials especially whether to put items there that can be sold for AD.

    The answer is simple: decent amount of unbound AD (with other stuff like transmutation, etc.)

    To understand is we need to know first what's the incentives of people keep playing the game?
    in most of the mmorpg game these ones are the major incentives:

    To be stronger
    To complete a challenge
    To prove they are the best player
    To social
    To have fun
    To make "money" in the game
    To look better

    It doesn't matter if you are casual player or end-game player, as long as we can feed most of people's incentives and keep more people wanna play it is a success. It is all about balancing (if you have played mmorpg games for long you should understand what I am talking about) everyone would agree AD is an important incentives for some certain people, but how much should we put there in the chest of the most end-game content like ZC or TOMM where only 1%-5% players do it everyday. It is not a simple question but we can assume some extreme cases:

    1. put 0 AD there, together with other bound stuff like transmutations, better gears (celestial weapons), etc.
    2. put 20m AD in the chest, together with all other bound stuff.
    3. put 200k ADthere, together with all other bound stuff.

    If we do 1, many end-game players are gonna lose interest and stop playing soon; and for casual players they would lack incentives to gear up for the challenge, so they would not do the trial too. ---->fail

    if we do 2, 1% of the players are gonna make billions of AD and farm the trial everyday 24/7, while 99% of the players would feel so sad becuase they spend a lot money and can not access to the trial in time before the profit in AH shrinks, so they gonna quit the game or feel salty ----> still fail, becuase devs takes the fun out of 99% people, and only care for the 1% of players which may already be rich enough.

    if we do 3, most of the end-game players who aim only for AD will still farm the new trial; mid-level players will keep grinding until they can get access to the trial, and finally they will play together with other end-game players.

    The analysis is more complicate, but we get the idea, simple do 1 or 2 is not working, we need to balance it so as to improve incentives.

    (For more discussion feel free to join NW pve discord: https://discord.gg/9tPhPgg)

    Option 4. Put a reasonable (comparable with the other content + a small percent increase for endgame difficulty) amount of AD + a random number of items. These items may be either bound or un-bound, randomly. AND REMOVE BOUND TO CHARACTER FROM THE hamstering GAME!
  • finmakinfinmakin Member Posts: 410 Arc User
    ukspawn said:

    finmakin said:

    Took me a long time and efforts to get ready for ToMM, so I might be one of the 1% few who runs ToMM on regular base...
    As far I can see all drops are unbound and can be freely distributed and since I just run it for fun (and have a good time with group) the drops are for me secondary since I mostly give them away to Guild/Alliance players who need it...

    Perhaps I am elitist.

    Not that it needs to be said but, no, not at all. Again this is just one of so many differing opinions and approaches to content.

    Whilst a pessimistic response could take what you said with a pinch of salt there are undoubtedly many players like yourself that have that approach and so forms another entire different outlook and response to how endgame content and rewards reshaping can be seen.
    The issue here is simple.
    A lot of players who have the right Ilevel (High level gear is too easy to obtain in Avernus, which I blame devs for it) but slacking the required stats to face Halaster (especially incoming heal percentages)..
    I see on daily base those players complaining because they find Avernus too hard (while they have 25k+ Ilevel) due insufficent stats.
    I joined a couple of times a ToMM run and have to see players in the group with blue enchantments (include negative incoming heals, caused by cursed boots)
    Needles to say that the ToMM run lasted 5 seconds..

    What I try to say (and have mentioned it in my former reaction) is this.
    ToMM (and upcoming M19 trial) is not easy and requires a ton of preparations (stat wise) before even think about entering besides the fact that ToMM requires a group of dedicated players who are able to run this trial as a single oiled machine with a shared mind... Which means a lot of fails to get the mechanics right.. I know, I have (and the group with me) have learned the hard way, and still failing on regular base due little mistakes (too many skulls)...
    Are we blaming Devs for our fails?.. No, because its our own fault if we fail.

    All I say is the following.
    Work on your char (every day, bit by bit) and get it ready for ToMM before even considering to run it.
    Form (or join) a group to run ToMM on regular base (Preview is perfect for that), learn the mechanics (wich can be hectic at some moments) and learn..

    Blaming Devs for your fails due lack of required stats is a big no, no in my eyes..
    ToMM is surely doable :)


    Ogguk The Beholder… Justicar Paladin
    Puny Tank

    Guildleader of NWLC Alpha
  • fademist#5406 fademist Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    but if u can buy all the items from all content from AH why anyone need to even bother to run any?
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Member Posts: 648 Arc User
    According to at least one dev, you are supposed to do it for the challenge, not the rewards.
  • jeremytheman232jeremytheman232 Member Posts: 231 Arc User
    Biggest problem is reward to effort. Epic cragmire crypts is way to difficult compared to t9g and the best reward I got with 5 rerolls of both chests was a black opal vs t9g speed run get at least a rank 6 stone usually. No reason the first dungeon should be harder than later ones and reward less
  • chemjeffchemjeff Member Posts: 544 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    To be honest, I rather like the broad idea of the Demogorgon version of how to dispense rewards: Bronze, Silver, Gold.

    If I had to redesign it, I would do it as follows:

    A very bad team gets Bronze rewards, which are only minimal rewards.
    An "average" team gets Silver rewards, which gets you some progress towards the shiny new endgame items, but not very much.
    A very good team gets Gold rewards, which gets you great progress towards shiny new endgame items, and access to a higher tier of a loot table.

    This encourages everyone to participate in the content *at some level*. Only the best teams get the best rewards, but everyone gets rewarded to some extent for at least learning how to do the content.

    So if I were to redesign TOMM using the Demogorgon method of rewards, it would be something like this:

    Suppose the Lionheart weapons required 500 Scrolls of the Void to obtain.

    A team that only completed Phase 1 would get Bronze rewards: some RAD and RP, but no scrolls.
    A team that got to Phase 3 and got the boss down to 50% health, would get Silver rewards: RAD and 1 Scroll of the void, but no ring.
    A team that completed the whole thing would get Gold rewards: RAD, 25 Scrolls of the Void, and access to the ring loot table.

    That way, most everyone is rewarded to some extent. Teams that are still learning, but not able to finish the whole thing, can still make some progress towards their weapons. But no one is going to only half-complete Phase 3 *500 times* to try to get their weapons. They will eventually get better enough to finish it, and then have access to many more Scrolls of the Void, and the full loot table.

    Right now there are a whole lot of people who are completely ignoring TOMM because there are no rewards unless you completely finish it, and completely finishing it is very hard and a very expensive investment in terms of time and AD. The trial can be democratized a bit without destroying the exclusivity of the highest tier of rewards.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    IMO,

    Each chest needs to have all factors considered, including game variety and plain fun factor. That said, an example of a good reward mix for end-game dungeon content would be:


    * Some unbound (in-demand) simple items. (this has some AD value)
    * A pile of rAD is always OK.
    * An RNG drop which includes BiS or competitive gear (Bound to Account only)
    * An occasional RNG rare collectable, pet, or mount (unbound rare drops might be worth a lot, so they are infrequent.
    * A commonly dropped item from an RNG set. Designed as high value character awards for completing the dungeon, the value of which should diminish after several runs once the character has obtained the primary items. (bound to character)

    Examples of this last item are CODG exalted gear, scales for chain of scales, or currency for a top end store, an occasional insignia, etc.. This is probably where this debate is being focused. Should this type of stuff be "higher value" and bound to character? or lower value and bound to account? Personally, I see nothing wrong with a limited BTC reward. It protects the economy while offering each character a value reward. The problem is... they become outdated over time and the reward becomes meaningless eventually.
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • fademist#5406 fademist Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    kharkov58 said:

    According to at least one dev, you are supposed to do it for the challenge, not the rewards.

    and how many after hearing this got down to the floor laughing?
  • winteranestiwinteranesti Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    I support the unbound items like weapons and armors being sold. Here is my reasons. I am in a low level guild. I am a beta player and my stuff is max rank on 4 characters with 2 more almost max. I was invited into a low guild by lovely people and even though I am end game, this guild and alliance is not. I have been playing since beta and see the importance of all level guilds for all different players should be considered important as well. Too many people left this alliance to be TOMM carried and some came back crying of neglect from elitists guilds or quit completely due to being left behind from empty promises. I have no problems paying those elite guilds for the weapons they can drop to help support me via trickle down economics in order for smaller guilds to stay intact and not destroyed by end game content. This game should think of all guild levels and player skill levels. If the big fish want to keep their new toys and sell off a few extras to players like me who love the company of good people in small communities. I will pay for that. I keep praying these low players can make it to the big leagues in some way, but till then..let the rewards be great and I will buy your weapons off you making you rich in the process as I did the rings from TOMM.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    but if u can buy all the items from all content from AH why anyone need to even bother to run any?

    ehrm, you do realise that you still have to have AD to buy stuff. Making unbound loot doenst equate to everyone getting invinite AD for free.
  • canuck1canuck1 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    I think that Devs have to allow for unbound items to drop OR they would have to allow for every item available on the game to drop - otherwise the game couldnt be marketed as a true F2P game. If bound items only dropped and you couldnt win all the items you need to be able to run TOMM and Zariel then its not a F2P game (I mean, it would be, but in the least sense of the term).

    They need to do what they did with ME's on ALL GAME DUNGEONS - start with a basic difficulty and then have the players be able to add difficulty modifiers (like the runes - not like scaling). The more difficult the setting - the better loot. All players would be able to access all dungeons - even TOMM and the new Zariel based on difficulty modifiers. This makes EVERY SINGLE DUNGEON in the game viable and playable again and allows for bound loot and unbound loot for all levels of player to get.

    People who want to get to the higher difficulty better dungeons MIGHT spend real money to get access to the higher end content but they can play everything while learning and increasing their characters stats/power in order to build up to the better loot/drops available at the most difficult dungeon settings.

    The people that have played this game for years and have the gear and items are covered and the new players that want more content available to them are covered.

    Without unbound loot though a lot of people will play other games as its pretty nice to get a drop that you can sell and get something else you really need/want for your character - thats an awesome feeling.

    Thanks.

  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,635 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Allow unbound to drop and be sold means the game will be P2W (using $ or using AD) because you don't need to play to earn the items anymore like it was in early mod.

    There are easy ways to earn AD without spending too much effort. Fast way is to do hard content (but not many can do that). Slow and easy way is to do easy stuff (most can do that). Earning AD is relatively easy. Earning the bound BiS gear is not.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    edited June 2020

    Allow unbound to drop and be sold means the game will be P2W (using $ or using AD) because you don't need to play to earn the items anymore like it was in early mod.

    There are easy ways to earn AD without spending too much effort. Fast way is to do hard content (but not many can do that). Slow and easy way is to do easy stuff (most can do that). Earning AD is relatively easy. Earning the bound BiS gear is not.

    You are completely wrong.
    Allowing players to buy BIS items from other players is NOT Pay to Win. Is pay for convenience, pay for skip content, pay for advance, or pay to fast. And this is not necessarily bad, it creates a sinergy between players who have lot of time but no money, and players who have money but not much time.

    Pay to Win, is put BIS items available ONLY for REAL CASH. And that is a huge problem.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
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