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Official M19: Healing Adjustments

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  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,035 Arc User

    @asterdahl and rest of thread visitors.

    Group healing effectivness reduce depending on allies arround heal effect area.
    To heal what we could before would reuire more divinity.
    Even cast shielding would require more divinity. Also divinity regeneration no longer active, but become passive.

    The meta become x2 paladin.


    When paladin grant his barrier, it's work more less as granting extra HP pool. And when paldin does that, he can more less simply step away and restore divinity till barrier got depleted and expire.


    Now take x2 paladin healers in group and here you have effect.

    First paladin grant barrier, spend divinity and step back to restore divinity. Then second paladin step in front and do same, heal or generate barrier, when spend divnity, he switch places with first paladin. And thats nonstop circle.

    Also they can both use same healing and shielding, so even with group healing effectivness got reduced, their both combo still allow heal more with less divinity usage.. Cuz shielding allow paldin simply do nothing and restore divinity while shield is up on allies..


    Clerics have no shielding, thats mean they have use healing more offten, also power like Astral Shield while channeling it, you spening divinity. Thats mean no benefits, no time to restore divinity. While paladin can stit and do noting and get divinity restored.

    Warlocks - no cleansing effect means he need outheal Bleed/poison, and good luck with that.
    Also shield overriding means it's unstable in group runs. One moment you grant barrier like 25% or 30% or max players HP. In other use you grant 5% of max players Hp.

    Also group healing reduction factor HAMSTER up that even more.

    So neither warlock neither cleric get anywhere near paladin.

    Except that atm for Zariel you have a Paladin proving group shielding for mostly the dps and conversing divinity and either a warlock or a cleric focusing on the tank.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 923 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    @arazith07

    Any group try bring x2 pala healers in new trial. And to check out how's goes in comparison to other heal combinations??
    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 923 Arc User

    @asterdahl What are your thoughts on removing Stone of Health, Scrolls of Mass Life and Scrolls of Life?

    Why he should do that??

    I mean, even I am not fan of using them I know that they are things are needed in game.. After all how's game will gets their incomes?? Game does not run entirelly free.. Staff need to generate incomes through something..
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,035 Arc User

    @arazith07

    Any group try bring x2 pala healers in new trial. And to check out how's goes in comparison to other heal combinations??

    From what I understand, there is no need to do this. Shields will just override each other and from what I understand, even just one paladin is mostly just standing around not doing much except to cover unavoidable damage or mess ups.
  • volournvolourn Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    More importantly they should be there for 'weaker' players. Not every character/player are equal in skill and ability so having these 'failsaves' is a decent idea. FYI, I don't use them all that much personally. In fact, the other day I got chastised for not using a scroll during a fight vs the worm that was going to hell 'cause I personally felt it be wasted. If you don't like using them don't use them. I try to avoid using them because I feel it means the battle went awry but it is good to have a fallback for those who aren't 'perfect'.
  • originalsin#4257 originalsin Member Posts: 44 Arc User


    would you give sword power to a mage? stealth skill to a dreadnought? curse to a cleric?

    Actually, Bestow curse is a cleric spell.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 923 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    @arazith07

    Any group try bring x2 pala healers in new trial. And to check out how's goes in comparison to other heal combinations??

    From what I understand, there is no need to do this. Shields will just override each other and from what I understand, even just one paladin is mostly just standing around not doing much except to cover unavoidable damage or mess ups.
    Second Paladin healer use TAB(marking) on tank or use single target healing..
    But also work as safeguard if main heal paladin gets in complicated situation.. Thats why I wonder do anyone have try that combo,,
    |
    Also I hope I am wrong and x2 pala will not become meta.. I trully hope that.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • miliantriciamiliantricia Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    Players will be too lazy to look for clerics and warlocks, because it will be easier to take two paladins into a group.

    Allow warlocks to grant temporary full damage immunity. (Like shamans)

    Return to the clergy the astral shield that was before m16. Or strengthen existing

    And then all three classes will be equal
  • usmanazeem#8526 usmanazeem Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    asterdahl said:

    dolrey said:


    You have to change mechanics of blue shields otherwise small shields of warlocks always will interrupt big shields of paladins and.. no one will take warlocks in group 100%. To fix this you need to change mechanics of shields from always replace active shield to replace shield only if new shield is bigger.


    You don't need to put a large image in the body of your post to get us to read it. Even if we don't find the time to respond individually, please know that your feedback does make it to us. The image doesn't have any impact on the chance that we'll read your post.

    In regards to shields—please note that warlocks can choose not to use their shields. Warlock shields are only applied if they have chosen hellpact, or if they are explicitly using the infernal barrier at-will. When in 10-player parties with two healers, and teamed up with a Paladin, it would be optimal to switch to feypact, and not use infernal barrier regardless of whether they were overriden.

    While I do understand the desire for shields to work in a different way, note that there are of course downsides to all manners in which they might work. Firstly, we do not plan to allow shields to stack—this behavior would be too powerful—further suppressing the need for actual healing.

    However, would could imagine the more powerful shield always remaining intact, however, note that these shields do have durations. A more powerful shield with 3 seconds remaining preventing a slightly weaker shield from being applied 4 seconds before a large attack hits the party would be absolutely infuriating.

    We believe it is simpler that all shields behave in the manner that the currently behave, but of course, we are always monitoring performance and feedback. Note that the warlock's lifespark companion can apply shields when the warlock chooses hellpact as well, but that these shields which are rather small, will only be applied to players who do not currently have any shield.
    As you know,shields are always more useful than healing,if you do not wish to remove it then atleast make all warlock shields like inspitiy(lifespark heal/shield) please,you are saying we can switch to HoT feat but that would require another loadout slot which are already quite tough to spare,
    tl;dr please make bigger shields not get consumed by smaller ones please,the warlocks would love you
    Edit::or liek an AMAZING SUGGESTION,make shield feat into a class feat so we can slot it in and out
    Post edited by usmanazeem#8526 on
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    After a few tests done yesterday in Avernus I can confirm that doing daily and weekly quests has become an horrible pain in the neck for a Soulweaver Warlock. Removing damage and multiple stacking from Harrowstorm (now Soulstorm) reduced damage to an abysmal level.
    Healing in solo is definitely overabundant. I can stay in the middle of a minor encounter in Avernus, let 10 monsters beat me without even dodging and unless I get perma-controlled I can easily outheal all damage, but killing them with BotVA, Dreadtheft and at-wills takes forever. On live I can clear a minor encounter with my 24k Soulweaver but I have to move and slip to avoid part of the damage. On preview I can stand and outheal everything but can't kill the monsters within the allowed time, no matter what I do. Just give us a bit of damage back in order not to make daily campaign stuff a pain.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    How about gives us some damage back so that we could *actually* use it in dungeons or between heal checks to STAY ACTIVE AND HELPFUL.
  • xander#0631 xander Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Cleric

    with the 'repeated blessing feat' we could extend the duration of the HOT of healing word, but astral shield doesn't do it; it doesn't count as an healing encounter?

    we can use intercession every 23 second, usually it was for the tank but, with tab mechanics, we could use a more powerful heal, and even if intercession doesn't cost divinity, to get a 1500 magnitude heal with tab mechanics cost only 100 divinity and 1 sec to cast (50 divinity and 0,5 sec if you have battle prayer).
    doesn't this make intercession a bit useless? 50-100 divinity is easy to recover.

    astrasl shield, it's radius is small, all the player move, always, and expecially in trial if we have to cover 10 player i advise to increase the radius of astral shield and hollowed ground to at least 15-20 for astral shield and 30-35 for hollowed ground.
    hollowed ground is a daily and using it only for an attack is a waste, the area is too small, we would rather use angel of life+astral shield, at least we could cancel the shield and the angel keep healinf everyone.

    dev said we could attack in the time previously used to pray, but i'd rather slot healing and buffing spell (like exaltation and blessing of light), the only powers that deal damage are geas and secred flames (20 sec cooldown, 500 magnitude decrease damage dealt by 5%: sacred flame at will deal more damage in less time, and 5% debuff is useless (imo even 10% of astral shiled an hollowed ground is too little)).
    geas is weak; sacred flames, as said, i'd rather keep blessing of light and soothe to have some nice economic heal.

    divine glow : reduce your threat by half, this was useful (i think) when we could spamm healing, now we have to be careful with resouces is this really necessary?
    it has 28.6 sec cooldown and the only useful effect is a divinity regeneration that is useful only until we adjust our healing style to the new adjustement

    towering light feat : we deal more damage the less divinty we have, this could work in a hybrid heal-dps build, but we should get some useful way to do damage without using divinity, that could synergize with cycle of prayer; but we don't have any way to deal good damage.
    at least blessed armaments make us more resistent and synergize with exaltation that inclrease our healing and damage, so i find towering light a bit useless.

    annointed arm feat : it halves the duration and the heal, but give +3% damage, so if i'm useless as a healer i can at least increase the damage of the party, but that is the only useful buff power and it buff only 3% for 10 second every 2-3 min, in the mean time i keep being a useless healer.
    if i were a useful healer then i'd rather have persistent guardian that apply a nice hot.

    personally i don't like the class features, i am using the les useless rather than the more useful (or so it appear to me)

    a little change i'd like to see : sun burst is uselss in party content and in solo content , can we give it the effect of cleansing light when we choose the devout and add a new encounter in place of cleansing light?

    i find the healer boring since the changes of mod 16, we were helpful in challenges because we could aid the party overcome stronger enemies, now all we can do is keep the red bar full but that doesn't increase the survivability nor the enjoiment.

    if i'm doing something wrong tell me please, we are healer, but end-game content need at least 1 paladin, to keep them alive, so cleric and warlock are only there to full hp while the paladin keep people alive? we are simply a spammable stone on health? because this is how i see the cleric.

    i'm feeling a little depressed over this, we have become what in pre mod 16 was a mechanics (lifesteal)

    --edit : some grammatical errors --
    Post edited by xander#0631 on
    reality is what most recognize as true
  • froger#9967 froger Member Posts: 462 Arc User
    asterdahl said:



    -You claim the removal of channeling divinity allows healers more time to attack with at-wills in combat, but why would we want that? this damage is irrelevant in higher level content, and no longer procs effects such as prayer of opportunity or critical touch if it is a damaging at-will on paladin for example, I would much rather be able to channel divinity during this time. Even the new feat for paladins 'battle focus' does not support this change, it provides minimal divinity regen and only requires hitting the boss once every 6 seconds, this could have been easily achieved without the removal of the old channel divinity. -I suggest re-working this feat to provide more divinty regeneration with a somewhat less achieveable requirement than simply hitting an enemy, perhaps sustained damage for a few seconds for example.

    -Similarly, channeling divinty's restriction to movement added another layer of skill to gameplay, allowing better players to know when they have time to restore some divinty, and when they must focus on repositioning, just as one example.

    We did also receive quite a lot of feedback after the launch of Module 16 that many healers found the gameplay of channel divinity boring. We do understand that to some degree this change does lower the skill ceiling for healers. Those who would optimize their channel divinity uptime and squeeze every last ounce out of generating extra divinity during combat could dramatically increase their effectiveness.

    However, the situation you describe of having to be more careful when selecting your healing spells, as well as when to cast them is an intentional shift. We're shifting the mechanical difficulty of healer from optimizing your channel divinity uptime to more careful use of healing spells. On live, there isn't necessarily a lot of thought that goes into when to cast a healing spell, or who to cast it on.

    In the current live meta, we observed that healers who could optimize their channel divinity uptime could keep groups up through failed mechanics almost indefinitely. We are looking to put healing in a place where it can keep a good performing group alive of course, as well as help a group recover from some mistakes—but when a group is making repeated mistakes—we are aiming to make failure happen more quickly in that instance.

    Of course, we do want healing classes to be enjoyable to play, so we will absolutely take your feedback now, and in the coming months. Nothing on preview is written in stone, changes and fixes will continue to happen, both before launch and in future modules and updates.

    As a Cleric I PUG, A LOT. If groups failing mechanics will actually fail, then a lot of content will fail constantly. The current live content doesn't seem to work in a way the rewards an undergeared, but meets requirements for entry, group who follows mechanics with success. Furthermore, most "learn how to do it" trials and dungeons don't exist in game.
    Froger - Barbie Girl in a Barbie World - Main in spirit only - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Jade - Cleric - Main - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Magnus - Fighter - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    RIP - Warlock - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Bardtholomew - Ready to sing a song when the time comes

    Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
  • poliel#3832 poliel Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    maybe plan is: pallys for endgame.
    let other healers do the old dungeons. that solves probem of healer shortage for rtq, redq. for sure.
  • keadron#3660 keadron Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Zariel Challenge solo heal Pally by Rainer

  • minorheaven#5087 minorheaven Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Yes, it's sad but that's exactly what we have been warning. The fact is they made a class that's so overpowered that healing is barely needed and when is needed the class itself can do it. What's there for the other healers? If the dps has 500k hp, if you give them half a blue bar that's comparable to give him 250k extra hp, thats 5x what a legendary mount can give, and from the video thats more the rule than the exception. How are other healers supposed to compete with that?
  • minorheaven#5087 minorheaven Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    I had the same conclusion: cleric + warlock < paladin
  • blamethecityblamethecity Member Posts: 22 Arc User

    Very sad to see this new changes coming to the game.



    I play as a soulweaver warlock on console and I don't have any motivation to keep playing anymore. Yes, I was expecting changes to the character! but to something good.



    I see ppl saying warlock m19 is more like single target focused, the only thing I can think is "Palla can heal and shield 10 ppl in a trial at the same time and soulweaver 'kinda' heal a single target...."



    Dev says: "warlock is getting shield mechanics, but it's better u guys don't use it because it will override pallas shield....and it doesn't' stack " That's the solution they are giving us. Better say "if u use, be prepared to get kicked from sessions." obviously if we get invited to this new content.



    I won't' even say the 'targeting to heal' system will be a failure on consoles....



    Would be nice from them to give us some refund, I have invested so much money into the game to play this end game content just to see that they don't' have any interest to make healers balanced.



    Im just getting the 100k ad daily but if this wtf changes really come to the game I think I will have to move on.



    Hope the Devs are still reading and taking in consideration players opinions.



    Regards,

    While I don't expect a refund cause its a F2P game and any money I spent was a choice I made, I feel very much the same way. Been around since 2013 (2015 on this account - i was young and lost the password :P) but its looking like the designers have their heads in the sand in their ears covered more so than ever before.
  • gaetenw#0920 gaetenw Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    > @blamethecity said:
    > (Quote)
    > While I don't expect a refund cause its a F2P game and any money I spent was a choice I made, I feel very much the same way. Been around since 2013 (2015 on this account - i was young and lost the password :P) but its looking like the designers have their heads in the sand in their ears covered more so than ever before.

    Yes, me neither, but we also expect changes to better things. I have invested money thinking I would be stronger to the new content, now I see a super overpowered class being able to do the new trail solo while I ask myself "will ppl even want me in the group?..."

    Also, cooldown for the powers being toooo loooong makes the game less fun. Imagine those dungeons that we have a lot of group of mobs and between them we have to wait maybe 20sec to start the next fight because the healer is not ready.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    So here's an idea my husband and I were kicking around today as we discussed this. In other games we've played where shielding existed as a "healer" mechanic is existed in lieu of heals. The "healer" places the shield or temp HP on the teammates to slow the damage to an extent that natural recovery was able to fill them up between mobs. Whereas healers heal the HP of the damage as it's taken. Both scenarios exist in an environment where enemy damage is lower and more frequent requiring freqeuent actions from the "healers".

    So, perhaps this idea of separation could be tossed around if you're simply unwilling to give up on the Pallyheal having overshields. Maybe they need to give up more healing to compensate for shielding. If they're going to prevent damage, then they need to be less able to heal up the HP bar under or there's no point in a healer existing that can't shield. Right now, the Pallyheal is a one man army preventing AND healing. Separate the mechanics so they heal OR shield. Not both.

    1) Make it a feat selection. You lose the ability to heal but the gain the ability to apply temp HP. Even as we talked about this, we both admitted it's STILL overpowered because of healthstones. This would STILL be far superior to having an actual healer in a group. If anyone did take damage, they could just fill up with a health stone while the Pally went on with their tempHP giving. It still creates the same problem we currently have where people are no longer constrained to their natural HP as they are with the other two healers. It would further cement their role as a necessary component of 10 man content, but at least a second healer *would* be sort of needed.

    Or

    2) Limit it to separate encounters. These powers A, B, and C heal. This encounter K creates a shield of X% of target(s) HP. Then not only is the shield being limited, it's now a separate function that will have be weighed in the light of the limit of three encounter slots and resource use. The Pallyheal will have to choose between using resource to cast shield, knowing (s)he may need to heal afterwards thus possibly straining resource, or skip shield and just go straight for the heals and hope people survive without shields (you know, the way the other two do). Unless you absolutely nerf the hell out of the %, it would still be no brainer overpowered, but controlled some at least. And would open up 10 man content to possibly need a second healer to compensate for less healing.

    Or

    3) An overshield may only be applied if a power hits a single target. This makes shielding a strategic use. It will STILL make it possible to skip some mechanics without hitting fail state for anyone who knows mechanics well enough, but less so because not everyone will have unlimited shield. Pallyheal will have to choose who to shield when to conserve resource. People WILL take damage sometimes and will not be able to skip all mechanics. Pally would retain it's unique ability like you want to stretch the HP bar so people don't die, but it wouldn't be absolute. People would still have to cap HP and defense properly even to run with a Pally because not everyone is guaranteed a shield. It would lessen the difference a tad.

    Personally, I still think any overshield is going to cause balance issues. BUT, if you're absolutely unwilling to waver on it existing, then perhaps something like the above proposals can be considered to help mitigate the imbalance.
  • shugenshashugensha Member Posts: 139 Arc User
    When this thread started i lost all my motivation to log, not even to refine my rAD. And after that video i feel its better uninstall until future mods.
    While i understand changes are needed, i don't understand why only 2 healers are paying the price.
    That video is the proof that the game only need pally shields and nothing else, the other two healers are just decoration.
    And if we, soulweavers, can't stack the shields or have decent shields, why give us them in the first place? why do it if in the end all you would say its "oh, but you can use the other feat"?
    Took our dmg and gave us useless % dmg buff that works with the new "divinity", gave us feats that drain it just for hitting when before we could do it just fine.
    In the end you regresed to pre mod 16, instead of one dps and 4 buffers, now its one pally and 4 dps.
    It's really sad cuz even if you make DCs to give nice buffs with each heal, or make warlocks buff and debuff like before, ppl will still choose blue shields and healthstones.
    At least now i know that if i met someone that says it's thinking about playing this game, i will warn that person and then say "just make a pally heals, even if you don't like that rol, its the best if you want to play every single content without problems or kicks"
    And thx Rainer for that video, proof like that can't be ignored not even for the devs.

    And btw, i won't speak for all the soulweavers, but i don't want to be a sad and crappy blend of DC and Pally, i fell in love with the templock, was fun, was unique and overall worked. Soulweaver was completly different but fun. And the new one it's just useless, there isn't feat choises that would make you go "oh.. what if i try this..?", the class features are the same, the powers won't give diversity since feats only count three powers and after every power all you gotta do is stay still hopping the team won't screw it, the only good thing is the new orb that follows you, but other than that we are useless even for mimics on LoMM. There are plenty of ppl giving real good feedback asides from the shild/tempHP. Don't copy paste the classes, just make them unique again, like giving one orb that heals and another that hits and powers that interact with them, lets us feel the power of the souls we reap or the power of our patron.
    Soulweaver: The Lovely Red

  • midental#5256 midental Member Posts: 130 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Synergy. We need Synergy. Pala make Shield every 3 minutes and Healers keep them alive on players. Synergy. Group content not one OP or one DC or one SW. With sinergy game could be better. Heal over time need to be moooooore over time not every 3 seconds.... need every 2 seconds and more incisive. Like DPS more synergy in damage is better for everyone.

    My two cents....
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