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Official M19: Healing Adjustments

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  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    hastati96 said:

    Divine Touch is in a bad state


    In the current state Divine Touch has no use as an AoE heal compared to Divine Shelter. In group content it is sure that it heals less than Divine Shelter and Divine Shelter does a much better job in getting the heal to everyone (due to its 4x more radius).
    Divine Touch becomes worse than Divine Shelter if it hits 3 targets. Especially in trials there is no chance that Divine Touch will be used because it hits up to 10 targets. Now Divine Touch is basically a worse version of Divine Shelter.

    As a single target heal Divine Touch is also useless. Cure Wounds now heals for 500 maginutude for 30 Divinity. Divine Touch heals 1000 magnitude for 200 Divinity. No one will cast Divine Touch on a single target because of the huge Divinity waste it is. Furthermore if you want to have a high single target heal a paladin will use Hand of Divinity for 1500 magnitude.

    tl;dr Divine Touch fits in no situation where it can be usefull.

    Thank you for the feedback. We agree that Divine Touch is in a bit of a bad state at the moment, and are considering adjustments.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Feedback

    Both feats rework are bad
    Battle prayer feat paired with gathering light causes a probem, whenever an encounter is used, the healer can't cast gathering light, because the effect of battle prayer remains for light of divinity and its 200 divinity cost, this will suffocate divinity and leaves no timing for desired divinity cosumption while running out of it.
    Additionally, it is harder to gain divinity while in battle, At what moment is righteousness working? cause the divinity regen seems lower and bastion and healing word still consume their exact divinity cost.

    Circle of power gives no chance for a real divinity regeneration, we will aways consume divinity, at will, encounter and now tab, resetting it without benefits at all and out of combat it regenerates fast, but we don't need it to be good out of combat.

    Thank you for the feedback! In regards to battle prayer and gathering light—it should still be possible to cast gathering light while battle prayer is active by letting the bar fill all the way. It is the case that you can cast it faster under these circumstances and with a reduced divinity cost. I will look into this behavior and ensure that there are no issues. There are absolutely some bugs currently on the preview shard. Some of these were fixed in this week's build, and some will continue to be fixed.

    In regards to cycle of prayer—this power does by design encourage a feast and famine approach to healing, where you hold out a bit longer before casting spells which cost divinity, and when you do cast them—cluster them together. But I believe that the result of this feat when used properly is still a noticeable positive increase to divinity regeneration. Hopefully if this is not your desired style of gameplay, when any potential issues are resolved with battle prayer, you will find it a useful addition.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Feedback

    ( Firstly, you've got an error somewhere that makes the comment get deleted if someone else posts a comment while you edit)

    As a warlock main, these are my two cents about the changes so far.

    - Cleanse.
    The warlock needs a cleanse - any cleanse. A healer without a cleanse is an incomplete healer, and being the one class without a cleanse is going to guarantee we will not be picked for runs.

    - Revitalize
    One of the major things that made the warlock fun and unique to me, was the strategical aspect of positioning and being more active in combat. The fact that positioning well could make or break the success of the role is very rewarding and where a difference in skill has a large impact. Having an aimed heal (and with a divinity bar to boot) makes the class feel much more like a point and click cleric, only with green colors.

    Also, the cost of 200 is a bit too high. If something goes sideways, I'll only be able to cast 5 of them before running out of soulweave, and there is no good panic insta regen option here. I think 150 would be a better cost. That'd give me 6 of them with a little left over for some emergency ST healing.

    -Shields. So far from what I have seen, the shield the warlocks can put up are tiny. Nowhere near where I'd expect a 450 magnitude heal from a player with all 5 outgoing heal companions and 150k+ power. And they don't stack, so no way of making the shield bigger by casting several times. This makes them feel quite redundant in their current form.

    -The ST tab mechanic is interesting and quite practical. No need to find the tank in a huge pile of mobs if they're already tagged. I think this is a fun change. The slight delay when pressing tab and when the tank gets healed might be troublesome, but on the other hand, might teach players to anticipate, so I don't think it's a bad thing (yet).



    Thank you for the feedback! I'm really glad to hear you're enjoying the lifemark and command lifespark mechanic! In regards to the cost of revitalize being too high—you do have quite a few other heals in your repertoire now as well, in addition to your lifespark's heals. We do want the use of powerful heals like revitalize to be a bit more restrictive, but we will keep an eye on the soulweaver's performance.

    As far as shields go, the magnitude of your shields should be based on your heals. If the heal is listed as granting a 50% barrier, and you heal for 100,000, a 50,000 hit point shield should be applied. If this doesn't appear to be happening, please let us know as much about your character as you can, or include your character's name. We'll take a look as soon as we are able!

    Finally, we are aware that there is an issue wherein soulweaver does not currently have access to cleanse, and are looking into ways to provide them with access to one. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    edited May 2020
    In regards to feedback about using tab to mark a single player being difficult, we do understand the feedback. Internally, we had originally tested a version of the mark which simply cycles through your party members in order. Some found this efficient while others found it very unintuitive. We'd like to be able to provide this as an alternate method of using tab to mark your party members, however, we currently have no means to offer alternate targeting methods for a single power without incorporating those choices into class features or feats, which did not feel great. While we may not be able to provide an alternate targeting method right away, we are investigating potential improvements we can make.

    That said—a lot of feedback has been about switching targets, note that in group play for the most part you should be safe leaving the mark on the tank, and using other powers to spot heal your teammates. The tab mechanic is meant to provide a reliable way to heal the tank, even when targeting them may be difficult due to positioning. Please give it a try in group play when you have a chance.

    One additional note about the various mark mechanics—as of yesterday's build—the visual effects should only show up for the caster of the mark. This was always the intent, however, there was a technical limitation on our end that prevented this. The fix simply did not make it in for the initial preview build. In other words, the recipient of a mark will no longer see it, which means there won't be times when multiple marks are visually overlapping one another in groups with multiple healers.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    I think this is an appropriate time to point out that the cooldowns on our non-resource powers are disproprtionately long for maintaining an engaging combat. I have to manage/ration my resource which means I have to wait to cast it until it is necessary. That's not a bad thing. It's not. That makes a skill requirement of knowing when to cast and when not to. However, this brings us to the position we find ourselves in currently where playing healing isn't engaging because we have long periods of downtime. The fact that our non-resource powers are insanely long cooldown means they're not really useful for filling that time. Our attacks are useless. They do nothing for us and the damage is non-existant. So another possibility in addition to other things which have been suggested is to lower the cooldowns of the non-resource powers so they could more effectively be utilized to create that activity that we need to feel satisfyingly engaged.

    Edit: I'm not asking for them to be spammable and never hit the triggers again, just so we're clear. But 25-30 second gaps in doing anything meaningful or interactive are leading to the boredom and frustration you're seeing. Encounter cooldowns, especially for healers who have to be managing their resource for their other powers and can't just "hit when up" but generally across the board also wouldn't be a bad thing, should be balanced around 10-15 second cooldowns *as a maximum* so that we can continually be doing *something*. I can't just throw heals just for fun to use a power because I haven't done *anything* in like a minute except read facebook. Even on live right now I wouldn't do that. I *could* run myself out of divinity being stupid. Being able to use a non-ressource power more than once or twice in that time frame would actually be really nice.

    Thanks for the feedback! We are looking into what adjustments we can make so that a healer's contributions to damage, and general engagement is higher during periods of downtime between healing, especially in content where it may be possible to not fully devote one's loadout to heals.
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Devoted Cleric @asterdahl
    bug: or nerf of "Blessing of Light", it do'nt fill Action point now

    Any action you perform in combat should still be increasing action points to some extent, thanks for the report!
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    During Zariel's Challenge, the Warlock's tab mechanic, Lifepact, still instantly drains much more than 60 Soulweave per second when activated.

    Thanks for report! This issue should now be fixed, I apologize for the inconvenience!
  • vanda001vanda001 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    So, after reworking my cleric completely after Mod 16, spending a fortune for companions and having the correct mods on my gear, now all of that is pretty much useless. Do you ever consider the cost of time/money/energy people have put into the characters before you make these sweeping changes?

    Absolutely, the amount of disruption that changes can cause are always a major factor in our deliberations about whether to make changes. Often times, when we are slow to make changes, those are the primary reasons. As was the case here, where these large healing effects were left in place since the launch of Module 16. And when we do have to make changes, we greatly appreciate your patience. I'd also like to personally apologize for any disruption that these changes may have caused you.

    In the case of utility enchantments and companions which grant increases to healing however—please note that though the values on these powers have been decreased dramatically, it is only because these effects were dramatically out of line with other options for those slots, given their item level. For instance, outgoing healing bonuses offered by companions were often five times stronger than taking the equivalent amount of power for healing.

    We have engineered these adjustments so that in most cases, it is still best in slot to take these sources of outgoing healing for a healer, but it is not orders of magnitude stronger than taking power. We believe that in most cases, your current setup will not have to change, even if the overall power of these effects is reduced.
    In some cases, like mine, the changes destroy my build completely. Any action is taken to compensate this? I coudn't even enjoy my build for 1.5 months.
    This is not a Beta, anymore, get that in your head. You canot simply sweep everything just because of your dumb decisions
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,016 Arc User
    vanda001 said:

    asterdahl said:

    So, after reworking my cleric completely after Mod 16, spending a fortune for companions and having the correct mods on my gear, now all of that is pretty much useless. Do you ever consider the cost of time/money/energy people have put into the characters before you make these sweeping changes?

    Absolutely, the amount of disruption that changes can cause are always a major factor in our deliberations about whether to make changes. Often times, when we are slow to make changes, those are the primary reasons. As was the case here, where these large healing effects were left in place since the launch of Module 16. And when we do have to make changes, we greatly appreciate your patience. I'd also like to personally apologize for any disruption that these changes may have caused you.

    In the case of utility enchantments and companions which grant increases to healing however—please note that though the values on these powers have been decreased dramatically, it is only because these effects were dramatically out of line with other options for those slots, given their item level. For instance, outgoing healing bonuses offered by companions were often five times stronger than taking the equivalent amount of power for healing.

    We have engineered these adjustments so that in most cases, it is still best in slot to take these sources of outgoing healing for a healer, but it is not orders of magnitude stronger than taking power. We believe that in most cases, your current setup will not have to change, even if the overall power of these effects is reduced.
    In some cases, like mine, the changes destroy my build completely. Any action is taken to compensate this? I coudn't even enjoy my build for 1.5 months.
    This is not a Beta, anymore, get that in your head. You canot simply sweep everything just because of your dumb decisions
    Might want to be specific in how your build was 'completely destroyed'. For most people aside from the power and feat changes; companions, enchants, insignias, etc should remain unchanged.
  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    asterdahl said:

    Hey everyone, thank you all for taking the time to check out the changes and provide feedback! I want to respond to a particular item of feedback that has come up multiple times.


    ....and allowing a balanced playing field where all healers can have their own niche.

    Nice!!! then why did you remove the niche's from warlock?
    You changed shatter spark into a copy of bastion of health....
    You removed cursing mechanic...
    You gave us an option for a shield that is also a worst copy of the one paladins give...
    Made clerics and paladins have an at-will that heals a lot which use to be our thing...


    Saying one thing and doing another yet again, oh nvm we have pillar of power that has almost 30 secs cooldown and aside from bosses it wouldn't be too useful due to the long cooldown and the short distance between mobs unless you pulled everything on a dungeon
    I won't even talk about the new players or randoms that have no communication or coordination and will just keep wasting it

    asterdahl said:


    We wanted to ensure that we did not act hastily in nerfing paladins, and that we could make adjustments that didn't make them feel significantly weaker than their counterparts.

    You do know they have been overpowered since they came out in mod 6, while other classes have been neglected/ignored during years right?



    Ah forget it, just talking to myself


  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,016 Arc User

    Clerics and warlocks will still not get chosen for Endgame Content unless it's being done as an act of charity by friends.

    Warlocks are preferred already in endgame content. And realize that just because something may be the worst at something, doesn't mean that it can't do the job well. Thankfully as it's not like dps where total numbers do affect how quickly something gets done. With Healers and Tanks, if no one dies you did your job well, that healing number doesn't affect the run in any way outside of keeping someone alive.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    I still don't understand the persistent Cleric hate. Almost every ToMM I've done has included a Cleric healer, and I've done enough to be halfway to that whirlwind mount if I were inclined to buy it instead of extra weapons for alts.

    That's not to say that there aren't legitimate concerns around shielding in general and how Cleric in M19 in particular appears to be at risk of being no competition for Soulweaver (because the Paladin spot up to this point has been all-but-guaranteed).
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    Imo while paladins do stand out against both of the other healers, both dc and warlocks need to be able to stand out against one another. Before warlock have a more unique style compared to the other healers providing damage debuffs while protecting the grp along with healing support. Cleric were just straight heals with a daily that could buff the party. Giving them Class specific party utility would go a long way in standing out instead of being over shadowed by the paladin, for the heal over time feat for the warlock, having those healed gain a random buff over it duration would be a nice buff along with reducing pop cooldown back to the original value. Clerics on the other hand, while i would like them to debuff once again, i understand that the state of the game is moving away from that. Instead what about bringing back hastening light?When u critically heal an ally u reduce their encounter cooldowns by 3 sec and on daily use reduce ally cooldowns by 5 sec. Clerics dont have a feat that guarantees a critical heal unlike paladin and divinity is limited so not something u can spam but its a nice buff.
  • agoraotro#4630 agoraotro Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    > @vorphied said:
    > I still don't understand the persistent Cleric hate. Almost every ToMM I've done has included a Cleric healer, and I've done enough to be halfway to that whirlwind mount if I were inclined to buy it instead of extra weapons for alts.
    >
    > That's not to say that there aren't legitimate concerns around shielding in general and how Cleric in M19 in particular appears to be at risk of being no competition for Soulweaver (because the Paladin spot up to this point has been all-but-guaranteed).

    I think someone posted something similar here earlier.

    On console, at least, 95% of the ToMM farming runs are made of 2 tanks and 1 healer (obviously, a Palaheal).

    Hence all this hate around this class. And I have played both. Yet I find they still need to do something in order to bring all three healing classes to balance.

    Right now and even on preview, Palaheal is most desired. And in two of the endgame trials, it is a MUST to have.

    So the point here is that if you always need one class to play certain dungeons, that means that particular role is not balanced.

    Imagine if you need to fill a tank role you always need to look for Fighter. Or imagine you need to fill a DPS role, you always need a Trickster in your group... Same thing.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    > @agoraotro#4630 said:
    > > @vorphied said:
    > > I still don't understand the persistent Cleric hate. Almost every ToMM I've done has included a Cleric healer, and I've done enough to be halfway to that whirlwind mount if I were inclined to buy it instead of extra weapons for alts.
    > >
    > > That's not to say that there aren't legitimate concerns around shielding in general and how Cleric in M19 in particular appears to be at risk of being no competition for Soulweaver (because the Paladin spot up to this point has been all-but-guaranteed).
    >
    > I think someone posted something similar here earlier.
    >
    > On console, at least, 95% of the ToMM farming runs are made of 2 tanks and 1 healer (obviously, a Palaheal).
    >
    > Hence all this hate around this class. And I have played both. Yet I find they still need to do something in order to bring all three healing classes to balance.
    >
    > Right now and even on preview, Palaheal is most desired. And in two of the endgame trials, it is a MUST to have.
    >
    > So the point here is that if you always need one class to play certain dungeons, that means that particular role is not balanced.
    >
    > Imagine if you need to fill a tank role you always need to look for Fighter. Or imagine you need to fill a DPS role, you always need a Trickster in your group... Same thing.
    >
    >

    I recall this being explained, but it’s difficult to understand why it’s such a thing on console. Solo tank and 2x heal is just as viable, as is 2x tank/2x heal unless there are DPS being carried.

    Paladin healer is overpowered right now, but console must be an odd place.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited May 2020

    Emissary of warding reduced from 100% to 50%.... I can tell you that if you don't have this feat, you cannot heal properly and quickly, or mitigate the incoming damage, especially for endgame trials contents or even for the Arcuria's cocoon .
    This nerf is unacceptable and is really too strong. Please don't do drastic changes like that (you could have tried 75% first for instance, wny so much at once????).
    The other changes are already questionnable but this one is the worst for the paladin.
    Not to mention that this could cause a rework of all endgame trials because people will receive too much damage, especially when there are several big attacks in a row


    The fact that all endgame trials *would* need to be reworked in the event of an overshield nerf highlights exactly the problem with paladin atm. It should be very clear that a class/mechanic is overpowered when it is pretty much a requirement for endgame content.
    It is more the other way around: Bad design of endgame content requiring too much protection + shields on top. Paladins are not overpowered, they prevent damage and oneshot (but have very bad healing if no crit). Not the fault of paladins if for example Superstorm was too strong to be mitigated by other healers. I prefer the other healers to have better damage mitigation tools than removing what makes the paladin a paladin.
  • liadan1984#8734 liadan1984 Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    I've spent a bit of time on preview testing and comparing a few things to live on my Cleric.

    I think I went through all of the stages of grief.... I wish you guys would warn us that you're going to make these big changes BEFORE you do this. Seriously, it's more than a gal can bear!

    In order to get divinity regeneration comparable on Preview to Live, it's ideal to use Divine Glow. Cycle of Prayer gets close(ish), using Cycle of Prayer with Divine Glow is better (an extra 4 seconds to fully regen divinity over JUST Divine Glow), but Divine Glow on it's own seemed to be best. The problem though, is the cooldown. 27-29 second cooldown(depending on if you have anything to help reduce cooldowns) for 12 second uptime. Could this look at a rework? Cooldowns above 15-20 seconds is (IMO) quite high. Maybe a 14s cooldown, with a 6 second uptime.

    Warlocks and Pally's have a feat that allows them the regenerate divinity/soulweave by either doing damage or taking damage. Clerics do not have that option. Our regenerate divinity feat feels... substandard, we have no incentive or need to do damage. And, in fact, my one damaging encounter that I did use (Geas) will now be switched for Divine Glow.

    I ran a couple of tests with a group today, after the preview patch, and the entire group could see the mark, except the tank, but she COULD see it during the cutscene for CODG.

    Visibility of the mark is a big problem, can it PLEASE be raised!!! so many times I just could NOT see it because of the tanks green HP bar and blue stam bar. Also, can we have a mark next to the agro meter (to the right?). Because even if I lose sight of it above their head, a quick glance to the party list allows me to see it there.

    I found that I was being interupted more during casting, whether it's just that preview is a bit laggier than live, I'm not sure. But it's a BIG problem for trying to do those BIG tab heals for the tank. If I'm interupted, NOTHING casts. not even a partial cast (for example, if I had been holding the tab down for half the time, it should have cast a smaller heal). This lead to me saying lots of words that my child shouldn't have heard (maybe testing on preview shouldn't occur while she is around?)

    Not sure what can be done about that? The interupting while casting is a HUGE bugbear of mine. I'm in Aus, I'm lucky if I get a ping below 300. This creates extra challanges for me for the game, it also means I'm more likely to be interupted while casting, be caught in red (because, I don't get as much time to react), and also, more likely to fall off platforms for mechanics such as in CODG (although, I usually survive that now, unless I get a random lag spike....) But... just something to consider... not everyone who plays the game are lucky enough to have great connections... some of us suffer with high latency.

    As with all changes, it will take a bit of getting used to, but I can see that I'm going to really like the new tab mechanic. As with pretty much everyone else, I'm not terribly impressed with the reductions to the ICH and OGH, and the changes to crit severity for healers (I'm actually really frustrated about it, but I'm trying to be polite), especially after all of the time and effort I put in after mod 16 to get my healing to where it is now. But... this is a fluid game, and anything can change at any time.
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