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My observations/feedback/ramblings on Fighter Vanguard powers/feats as of current build (M18)

wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 796 Arc User
edited May 2020 in The Guard Barracks
My observations/ramblings on Fighter Vanguard powers/feats as of M18 :

First of all I want to say that @asterdahl was right when claiming that players that gave negative feedback about the vanguard during M16 preview needed "time to adjust". The Fighter Vanguard is in a very good state at the moment, but there are a few tweaks needed.

Thanks to @viraaal (provider of actual numbers) and @damnacious (provider of motivation/input during my mad scientist experiments) for their ongoing efforts to test the Fighter class.

At-Wills :


Always remember that artifact weapon modifications = +10% threat generation from at-wills.
For lower ilvl tanks that have yet to start stacking offensive stats, +% at-will/encounter damage on gear is recommended for threat generation.

m= magnitude
TPS = Threat per Second

Cleave : AoE (35m, 0,5s) TPS : 252
- Threat generated : 35*3,6 = 126m
- Good for AoE combat

Brazen Slash : Stamina Regen (75m, 0,5s) TPS : 540
- Threat generated : 75*3,6 = 270m
- Single target at-will, personally do not use.

Guarded Strike : (85m, 0,8s) Guarded. TPS : 382,5
- Threat generated : 85*3,6 = 306m
- Nice for holding threat up while shielding in single target combat

Shield Bash : (30m, 0,7s) Guarded, AoE in line. TPS : 154,28
- Threat generated : 30*3,6 = 108m
- Nice for holding threat up while shielding in AoE combat

Tide of Iron : +120% threat generation for 10 sec (80m, 1s) TPS : 288
- Threat generated : 80*3,6 = 288m
- Used to refresh +120% threat regeneration vs single target every 10s
- Note : Threat generation numbers in this post does not have the +120% from ToI added

Threatening Rush : "Increased threat", 800% threat (60m, 0,8s) TPS : 2160m
- Threat generated : (60*3,6)*8 = 1728m
- The best threat generator of all our at-wills, I use this both for AoE and single target fights


Encounters :


Shield Slam : AoE (200m, 0,7s, 12,7cd)
- Threat generated : 200*3,6 = 720m
- Pure damage AoE skill

Knee Breaker : ST + 8 sec slow (500m, 0,55s, 19.1cd)
- Threat generated : 500*3,6 = 1800m
- Never used (PvP?)

Bull Charge : AoE/ST + Cleaving Bull (40m) feated (400m, 0,65s, 10,9cd)
- Threat generated : 400*3,6 = 1440m
- AoE opener (Cleaving bull feat), Single Target mobility

Shield Throw : ST + threat feated (800%) (350/250m, 0.65s, 10.9/6cd)
- Threat generated : 350*3,6 = 1260m / (250*3,6)*8 = 7200m
- The best single target threat generator (800%)

Anvil of Doom : ST + top threat feated (680m, 0,86s, 16.4cd)
- Threat generated : 680*3,6 = 2448m
- Used if aggro lost, puts fighter on top of threat table (+10% over current leader)

Enforced Threat : AoE threat -10k awareness 10s (0.55s, 12,7cd)
- If DPS knows to let tank aggro this should never be used

Knight's Challenge : 50% stamina restored, 80m when blocking for 8s (0,75s, 21,8cd)
- Threat generated (when guarding): 80*3,6 = 288m
- I personally never use this, as all stamina issues is handled by my eclipse enchantment

Linebreaker : AoE, "Increased threat", 800% threat (160m, 0,7s, 14,5cd)
- Threat generated : (160*3,6)*8 = 4608m
- The best AoE threat generator (800%)

Iron Warrior : Defensive, reduce damage taken by 20% (1,2s, 21,8cd)
- Extremely good for countering Boss "Tank buster" attacks

Knight's Valor : Defensive, closest ally dmg transfer to self, threat generated by closest ally transfered to self (0,2s, 16,4cd)
- Synergy with Steel Recovery, proccs SR every activation


Dailies :


Earthshaker : AoE, 3s stun (800m, 1.6s, 1000ap)
- Threat generated : 800*3,6 = 2880m
- Not used

Second Wind : +20% HP (increase AND heal same amount), lifesteal for 10s (1,1s, 1000ap)
- Can be used as threat generator if using Manticore's Mane head/Tanners Ring.
- Threat generated (Example 700.000 HP): 350.000*3,6 = 1.260.000m (not affected by any buffs, CA or crit)
- Above example does not apply +threat from self heal.Current assumption is that 1 HP healed
= 1 threat generated.
- Extreme damage, hitpoints buff and self heal, always slotted

Determination : CC dispel/immunity, +10% dmg (0,8s, 1000ap)
- +10% overall threat generation for 10s
- Not used

Bladed Rampart : -30% dmg taken, CA immunity (feat) for 10s (250m when taking hits, 1s, 1000ap)
- Threat generated (when taking hits while active) : 250*3,6 = 900m
- Very good for AoE combat, deals damage and reduces damage taken

Phalanx : CC immunity and -20% dmg taken for party inside barrier for 14s (2s, 1000ap)


Mechanics :


Block : Block 50% of own HP in incoming dmg, activate Guarded At-Wills, stamina drain on dmg taken, CC immunity, no stamina regen

Dig In : Block 75% of own HP in incoming dmg, stamina drain on dmg taken, CC immunity, CA immunity, reduced stamina regen.

(see @rjc9000 reply for details)

Retaliate : AoE, "increased threat", 800% threat generation (600m/900m, 1s, 10cd)
- Threat generated : (600*3,6)*8 = 17280m / (900*3,6)*8 = 25920m
- Extremely good and underrated "4th encounter", a very good threat generator

Path of the Vanguard : Increased threat generation (360% increase), +40% hit points, -10% damage dealt


Class features :


Greater Endurance : Up to +10% movement speed based on remaining stamina
- Nice for AoE/speedrun loadouts

Vigorous Strikes : Up to +10% crit chance based on remaining stamina
- Maybe useful for lower itemlevel tanks to establish threat on combat start, recommend rework

Combat Superiority : +10% at-will damage upon activating encounter or daily power
- +10% threat generation from at-wills is always good

Shield Talent : Stamina Regeneration
- Personally find this useless

Ferocious Reaction : Deal 25m damage on deflect
- Threat generated (on deflect): 25*3,6 = 90m
- Currently counts as encounter power activation, thus proccs both our Combat Superiority feat and the Focused Retaliation Master Boon

Steel Recovery : Regenerate 5% stamina upon activating encounter or daily power
- Synergy with Knight's Valor

Anvil of Challenge : Anvil of Doom places you on top of threat list (+10% over current aggro target), does not have this effect if charged
- Very good for re-establishing aggro if lost during boss fights. Also 100% needed for tank-swapping when duo tanking

Enduring Warrior : -5% damage taken if below 25% HP
- Extremely useless in current state


Feats :


Shieldthrower : Shieldthrow +threat modifier increased by 800%, cd reduced to 6s, magnitude reduced to 250
- This feat makes Shieldthrow our best threat generator in single target fights. Confirmed WAI.
Staying power : Should increase at-will threat modifier by another 700% for 6s
- DOES NOT WORK AT ALL

Rising Tide : AoE attacks get +25m dmg for 3 sec upon activating Tide of Iron
- I see absolutely no reason to use this, as Cleaving Bull has the same effect and is a much better AoE opener. Needs testing.
Cleaving Bull : AoE attacks get +40m dmg for 6 sec upon activating Charging Bull
- Threat generated (for AoE attacks, 6 sec duration) : 40*3,6 = 144m
- Makes Charging Bull the best opener for AoE fights. Charge in and spam AoE attacks for 6s, repeat. Confirmed WAI.

Critical Deflection : +10 stamina upon successful deflect if deflect = crit chance. 5s cd
- The 3rd tier of feats is our worst. Critical Deflection is the worst of the worst.
Combat Balance : Up to-10% damage taken if Crit Avoid = Deflect = Awareness
- The least bad of the worst

Sharpened Senses : Bladed Rampart negates CA dmg vs self
- Incoming CA dmg negation is a good addition to a very good AoE daily.
Perfect Block : Determination blocks all attacks at 0 stamina cost for 10s and gets 180cd
- Makes the CD on Determination too long for it to have any practical use in current state of game. Useless

Shake It Off : Retaliate gets up to +300m dmg based on remaining stamina
- Makes one of our best threat generators even better, no-brainer.
Deep Breathing : +4% dmg and inc heal for 10s every 3s spent dug in, stacks 3 times
- This simply takes too long to have any practical use in party combat, +12% damage dealt in solo play is very handy tho.


General :


Unshakable Shieldarm : +10% critical avoidance when blocking
- Needs confirmation
Tactician's Edge : Up to +10% CA based on remaining stamina
- Confirmed working, does not show in character sheet.
Marathon Runner : +10 movement speed out of combat
- Excellent


Feedback :


@asterdahl

- Threat mechanics needs to be clarified ingame, as there is no way for new players to understand what they have to do/not do to hold aggro in group content. Noone will ever guess that you have to multiply own magnitude by 3.6 to compare to DPS dmg output. ( @cwhitesidedev#9752 )
- Tooltips should include Threat Magnitude. Example Threatening Rush (60*3,6)*8, Cleave 40*3.6. Tide of Iron = +120%
- Clarify how self-healing adds to threat generation
- Unshakable Shieldarm needs confirmation if WAI ( @skingdev#1102 )
- Tactician's Edge should show in Character Sheet ( @skingdev#1102 )
- Class feature "Vigorous Strikes" needs rework
- Class feature "Ferocuius Reaction" needs to be looked at, details in skill description ( @skingdev#1102 )
- Class feature "Steel Recovery" needs rework
- Class feature "Enduring Warrior" needs rework
- 1st tier feat "Staying Power" does not work ( @skingdev#1102 )
- 2nd tier feat "Rising Tide" needs rework
- 3rd tier feats needs rework
- 4th tier feat "Deep Breathing" needs rework/rebalance (useable for solo play)
Elite Whaleboy
Post edited by wilbur626 on

Comments

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 796 Arc User
    Need for more ramblings
    Elite Whaleboy
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,324 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    My observations/ramblings on Fighter Vanguard powers/feats as of M18 :

    First of all I want to say that @asterdahl was right when claiming that players that gave negative feedback about the vanguard during M16 preview needed "time to adjust". The Fighter Vanguard is in a very good state at the moment, but there are a few tweaks needed.

    On the Mod 16 threads, we argued about that with the devs because:
    • The Squat literally resembled an extra shift mechanic (aka: other classes get something more distinct like "swap weapons" or "go invisible" rather than "use a second block"), only made distinct "enough" through Retaliate.
    • The upsides of the squat (more stamina) weren't needed at the time (read: bosses weren't dealing millions of damage like in Tower) when you could still move around and attack with the basic Guard.
    • The Tab mechanic encouraged you to sit and do nothing (I'd argue this one is still an issue because it encourages more dungeon design of "sit here and take lots of damage until you get to play again", like boss 2 of Lair).
    I get the reasoning on removing marking (press Tab on everyone wasn't "as" involved of an aggro system), but I think it didn't need to involve removing the function entirely (maybe it was just me, but I like how marking was like "commanding" the battle, with the mark saying "attack this person).

    I would have settled for just being able to mark one target, with its functionalities as a ranged aggro tool (that DIDN'T require a feat and encounter power to use)/more distinct mechanic/threat multiplier against that target.
    wilbur626 said:



    Encounters :

    Shield Slam : AoE (200m, 0,7s, 12,7cd)
    - Threat generated : 200*3,6 = 720m
    - Pure damage AoE skill

    Knee Breaker : ST + 8 sec slow (500m, 0,55s, 19.1cd)
    - Threat generated : 500*3,6 = 1800m
    - Never used (PvP?)
    I would argue both of these powers need a rework for PvE.

    For Shield Slam:

    There's no use in Knockback in PvE, because most enemies that can be knocked die quickly anyways or enemies are CC immune anyways.

    If you're playing DPS in PvE, there's not much of a point in using it for AoE damage since you get two other encounters that have better AoE damage (yeah, you can run 3 AoE encounters on AoE, but I don't see the point when you only need Tremor & Onslaught to deal with the small fry and you need something to poke the more beefy mobs.)

    If you want AoE aggro, just use Line Breaker Assault and/or Cleaving Bull.

    Yes, Shield Slam is the first encounter power unlocked, but "being good when leveling and useless when you have the full arsenal" is not exactly a great use of the power in the overall toolkit.

    I am not even sure Shield Slam has a use in PvP (I am not sure AoE damage is relevant in PvP and if you want a PvP knockback, just use regular Bull Charge, right?), but I don't claim to have any PvP knowledge.

    For Knee Breaker:
    I can see Knee Breaker being useful in PvP for the slow, but in PvE, it has 0 use.

    Its damage isn't half bad, but it has an atrocious cooldown that makes it unusable.

    Its CC component is useless in PvE, since most enemies that you'd want to slow are CC immune (if you could do things like, say, slow the mimics in Lair boss 1, then at least the slow could be of use there). If you can slow them at all, you are better off just killing them.
    wilbur626 said:


    Enforced Threat : AoE threat -10k awareness 10s (0.55s, 12,7cd)
    - If DPS knows to let tank aggro this should never be used

    Isn't this power an AoE "puts you on top of the aggro list + 10% aggro threshhold" power?

    If it is, then it has a distinct use in the toolkit.

    If it's just a "use this power to increase aggro generation", then I'd argue it needs a rework.
    wilbur626 said:



    Knight's Valor : Defensive, closest ally dmg transfer to self, threat generated by closest ally transfered to self (0,2s, 16,4cd)
    - PvP ?

    Not quite as good as the old Knight's Valor (actually, I prefer it for having to think about when to use it rather than just turning it on and forgetting about it), but it at least has a distinct use as a team protection tool.

    Maybe it also has use in a solotank Tower of Mad Mage build?

    From my limited time doing Tower training runs with Viral, I recall KV had limited use as a way to intercept the damage of Annihilate if a DPS draws aggro, but not get any Annihilation stacks on yourself (ie, let DPS draw aggro, then use KV to intercept their damage while not getting any stacks).

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,324 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:


    Dailies :


    Earthshaker : AoE, 3s stun (800m, 1.6s, 1000ap)
    - Threat generated : 800*3,6 = 2880m
    - Not used

    Determination : CC dispel/immunity, +10% dmg (0,8s, 1000ap)
    - +10% overall threat generation for 10s
    - Not used

    Phalanx : CC immunity and -20% dmg taken for party inside barrier for 14s (2s, 1000ap)
    Earthshaker has some use on lower geared players for a big spike of damage against the "kill this thing or make life really difficult" mechanics, such as Svardborg ice, or Lair Mimics.

    Determination is a kind of lackluster daily no matter which path you pick.
    There's almost no point in using it on DPS due to Mow Down/Earthshaker just giving you way more damage for the same AP cost.
    For tank, if you need the CC immunity, you need to work on dodging and/or it's one of *those* attacks that just cheat CC immunity because the game is saying "do mechanics or lose".

    If I were to rework it, I would do the following (if no paragon path, automatically get the tank version):
    • Manguard:
      -Reduce AP cost to 50%, has a 15 second internal cooldown between use
      -Clears any CC effects
      -Run 10% faster (I'd personally do "DEX/2"% faster, but idk if the devs want to make ability scores more than just window dressing). Also name it Iron Heart Surge for the lulz and to maybe make the D&D 3.5e fan people mad.
    • DPS:
      - Reduce AP cost to 50%, has a 15 second internal cooldown between use
      -Instantly refills all of Vengeance (a pseudo callback to people canceling VM for the Wraps DoT)
      -Grants you +20% damage for 5 seconds (I'd personally make the damage buff based off your CON score, but idk if the devs want to make ability scores more than just window dressing)
    I recall a bug report on someone saying that enemies with cheating CC effects that go through Phalanx's CC "immunity", so I would not quite call Phalanx CC immune.
    wilbur626 said:



    Mechanics :


    Block : Block 50% of own HP in incoming dmg, activate Guarded At-Wills, stamina drain on dmg taken, CC immunity, no stamina regen

    Dig In : Block 75% of own HP in incoming dmg, stamina drain on dmg taken, CC immunity, CA immunity, reduced stamina regen.

    Retaliate : AoE, "increased threat", 800% threat generation (600m/900m, 1s, 10cd)
    - Threat generated : 600*3,6 = 4800m / 900*3,6 = 3240m
    - Extremely good and underrated "4th encounter", a very good threat generator
    Saying Stamina Drain on damage taken is universal to all Guards on tank classes/shield classes (Barbie Sentinel, Paladin, Goofy Fighter). Any damage taken will deduct from the Guard/squat layer first and any overflow damage will be deducted from any other layers of HP (Paladin Healer barrier or TempHP from things like artifacts), then deducted against your own HP.

    Guard only grants CC immunity versus non cheating CC effects (see: Manticore Poison flip) and only if you shield the attack to the front. If an enemy crosses you up on shield with a CCing attack, they can CC you. I don't remember the arc of the range (maybe it's listed on the tooltip), but I recall the range on when I last checked it (lol Mod 7) was somewhere in the 200 degrees range.

    It's only the squat which grants full CC immunity to non cheating effects/360 degree shield no matter where you look.

    Pretty sure the squat extra stamina is the reason why the Anniversary Ham doesn't work at all: because the extra Stamina is just the Ham buff, and thus you can't stack the bonus twice. But I don't know how the spaghetti works behind the scenes and thus that's only speculation.

    Retaliate has an interesting, if sometimes frustrating activation mechanism (lag says hi), and I think it's a shame that the "must shield attack first" thing doesn't pop up on at least one other Manguard exclusive encounter power.

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 796 Arc User
    @rjc9000

    Shield Slam : I enjoy using this skill as an AoE CC skill when pulling all mobs in IC. However you are right it could easily be replaced/reworked.

    Knee Breaker : 100% agree. Our worst encounter power. Has absolutely no use in PvE.

    Enforced Threat : “ Isn't this power an AoE "puts you on top of the aggro list + 10% aggro threshhold" power?”. This is correct. Yet to see any content where this is useful.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 796 Arc User
    @rjc9000
    Knights Valor :
    @viraaal pointed out to me that the feat Steel Recovery has an interesting synergy with the Knights Valor encounter. Currently testing how this works. If “encounter power activation” = every time an encounter power proccs, this sounds good. I’ve always read “encounter powe activation” as “on encounter power cast” tho. This definition of “activation” could also explain the current bug where the class feat Ferocious Reaction proccs the Focused Retaliation master boon every time it proccs, the feat is simply defined as an encounter power and the activation is WAI ( @skingdev#1102 ). If this is the case, KV could be used to replace the feat if this ever gets fixed.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • ashesreborn#2913 ashesreborn Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Well, I'm pretty sure I posted a wall of text and after I edited a few words the whole post disappeared.

    I'm a newbie and big noobie Vanguard tank or better I should properly call myself a "half-tank" since my stats are really low and bad for what a tank should be considered. I've been following Xenakis guide and I must say I have learnt a lot thanks to him.

    A few things if I can remembered all correct.
    First of all, I personally use Earthshaker for the exact reason rjc9000 explained above. I'm a low geared tank so it certainly helps me dealing with ""kill this thing or make life really difficult".
    Second, I find Enforced Threat very useful and practical. I don't know if at end-game it is really unused or a bad choice but for me it's almost mandatory as I have a bad time maintaining aggro with some high geared/BiS DPS players in party or raid
    Also, there's something else about that skill or encounter which is the added effect which I like very much. The Awareness debuff (-10K) seems underrated but for starters or low geared players like myself it can certainly help Dpses as they will probably not be CA capped.
    And big thanks wilbur626 for telling us that "Staying power" feat is currently broken. It's a pity and a shame if that's the case as I have a loadout that uses the feat. I hope devs can fix it so I don't need to spend a restrain token just because its totally useless and broken as it seems from what you said previously.

    Third and last, thank you wilbur626 for pointing out the interaction of "Ferocious Reaction" with "Combat Superiority feat and the "Focused Retaliation" Master Boon. If its working as intended its a really nice feat to have slotted instead of Greater Endurance at least when dealing with Single Target threats.

    I forgot to mention something that I really dislike which is the lack of a proper explanation about "Dig In" and "Block" added effects. I mean I'm not a big fan of guessing what devs may mean about "you are immune to most CC effects". The keyword most is where my concerns are at in that part of the tooltip explanation

    Apologies for my poor and rusty English wording and skill. I'm not a native English speaker.
    Post edited by ashesreborn#2913 on
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 796 Arc User


    First of all, I personally use Earthshaker for the exact reason rjc9000 explained above. I'm a low geared tank so it certainly helps me dealing with ""kill this thing or make life really difficult".
    Second, I find Enforced Threat very useful and practical. I don't know if at end-game it is really unused or a bad choice but for me it's almost mandatory as I have a bad time maintaining aggro with some high geared/BiS DPS players in party or raid
    Also, there's something else about that skill or encounter which is the added effect which I like very much. The Awareness debuff (-10K) seems underrated but for starters or low geared players like myself it can certainly help Dpses as they will probably not be CA capped.

    This is very useful input, as it can be hard to remember/imagine how tanking feels when undergeared, even if I sometimes enjoy running dungeons at the minimum itemlevel requirement.

    What do you think about the encounters "Kneebreaker"and "Shield Slam" ?
    Class features "Vigorous Strikes" and "Enduring Warrior" ?
    Feats in 2nd, 3rd and 4rh row ?

    Thanks for giving input from a different angle than my own!
    Elite Whaleboy
  • durugudesudurugudesu Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    good read. i’ll refer this post to gf tanks that have problems keeping threat :)
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,324 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    good read. i’ll refer this post to gf tanks that have problems keeping threat :)

    Tell them to spam Threatening Rush and occasionally throw in Tide of Iron & Enforced Threat/Anvil.
    If they fail to grab aggro, get your Drill Sergeant on and heckle them for doing their job for them.
    wilbur626 said:

    Class features :


    Greater Endurance : Up to +10% movement speed based on remaining stamina
    - Nice for AoE/speedrun loadouts

    Vigorous Strikes : Up to +10% crit chance based on remaining stamina
    - Maybe useful for lower itemlevel tanks to establish threat on combat start, recommend rework

    Combat Superiority : +10% at-will damage upon activating encounter or daily power
    - +10% threat generation from at-wills is always good

    Shield Talent : Stamina Regeneration
    - Personally find this useless
    Personally, if I had it my way, I'd actually lock class features until you select a paragon path.
    That is from 1-30, you don't get any class features, but when you select a paragon path, you get 8 Class features that are focused on offering different styles in the path. But I doubt that will happen, so...

    For the universal class features:

    Greater Endurance and Combat Superiority are passable. I personally wish Combat Superiority was a greater buff for less time (15% for 6 seconds) or for all attacks, but it's not like it's unsuable, just kinda meh.

    Vigorous Strikes needs a rework badly since the 10% chance doesn't go over the cap from what I tried.

    I know some people suggested to make it give gives +25% Critical Severity or something like that as your Stamina remains full, but I feel that it verges too close to being a clone of the Babrarian Barbed Strikes passive... and also because I am not sure the devs want Manguard to have access to +25% Critical Severity if Barbarian tank is supposed to be the DPSy tank.
    If I wanted a unique flavor, I'd actually make it a sort of cooldown reduction feat of sorts, like "At-will attacks will reduce the cooldown of encounter powers by up to 1 second relative to how full Stamina was when you attacked, has a 2 second ICD". I put the cooldown there because I think the devs still want us to have cooldowns, but this speeds it up to some extent.

    I recall Xenakis said that the Shield Talent Stamina regain bonus is 2%. Not 20%, 2%. Make the decimal placement somewhat decent (ie, make it 20%) and I can see this being decent enough.
    wilbur626 said:


    Ferocious Reaction : Deal 25m damage on deflect
    - Threat generated (on deflect): 25*3,6 = 90m
    - Currently counts as encounter power activation, thus proccs both our Combat Superiority feat and the Focused Retaliation Master Boon

    Steel Recovery : Regenerate 5% stamina upon activating encounter or daily power
    - Personally find this useless

    Enduring Warrior : -5% damage taken if below 25% HP
    - Extremely useless in current state

    Ferocious Reaction should have just been the og Guarded Assault: deal 10 mag damage to enemies whenever you shield, damage is doubled if you're using the squat, has a 3 second ICD. Planning around Deflect is stupid.

    I'd change the name of Steel Recovery and change its effect to be a "generate more aggro" passive. Simple yet effective. If you want to regenerate Stamina, you should use one of the powers which regen Stamina (Brazen or KC) or slot in Shield Talent.

    For Enduring Warrior, I'd change it to not be related to being low on HP (that's dumb, and I'd leave the "high HP super tough tank" thing to the Barbarian), but something more related to technique and timing: if you strike an enemy with an encounter power, foes deal less damage to 10% less damage to you for 3 seconds, 3 second ICD.

    The low duration relates to a bit of risk and reward: stick your sword in your enemy (or bash them in the face with your shield) before they do something stupid, mess up their attack concentration, and cause them to deal less damage. Mistime the attack and you take an attack to the face without shielding it.
    Also, the cooldown is there so you don't just slot in Guarded Assault and just get free 10% damage reduction on enemies (as much as I like the synergy, I don't think the devs want us to have "take 10% less damage from enemies for doing nothing").
    Post edited by rjc9000 on

  • ashesreborn#2913 ashesreborn Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:


    What do you think about the encounters "Kneebreaker"and "Shield Slam" ?
    Class features "Vigorous Strikes" and "Enduring Warrior" ?
    Feats in 2nd, 3rd and 4rh row ?

    Thanks for giving input from a different angle than my own!

    I honestly haven't bothered with "Kneelbreaker" since I unlocked "Enforced Threat" as it has a high cooldown attached to it and is a single target encounter which doesn't suit well for low levelling dungeons which are all about AOE.
    From my point of view it seems a solid candidate for a pvp build but can't find a use for pve at least in the range of content I do (random trials, skirmishes and levelling dungeons).

    On the contrary I still use "Shield Slam" when I'm running solo content as I appreciate having an AOE damage skill which is something that lacks the Vanguard path. Other than that, I used to use it while I was levelling until I unlocked "Linebreaker". The issue the skill has is that pulls mobs away which is something a tank usually should try not to do because of dps loss.

    Can't say much about "Vigorous Strikes" and "Enduring Warrior". We should aim to cap our stats so its not a really convenient skill once you are done levelling your char even if you critical rate isn't yet capped.
    "Enduring Warrior" looks better in theory but I have never tried it so again can't say much about it.
    The issue is that I normally have "Greater Endurance" and "Combat Superiority" so it's rather difficult for me to swap either for anything else at my current content availability.

    Now, the second feat is just a one big thing that doesn't make sense for a single target loadout. In my opinion, "Rising Tide" should be totally reworked or removed or whatever they think is necessary but aiming for a single target approach instead of AOE.

    There's nothing much to say about third feat in my opinion. Having up to 10% damage reduction is really good and is a solid choice. "Combat Balance" seems like a no-brainer choice to go for.

    And for the 4th feat, there's a similar issue as with "Rising Tide/Cleaving Bull". If you want to choose the 4th feat for a single target loadout, "Blade Rampart" doesn't really help us there unless we are fighting a boss with adds which I don't consider a singlet target encounter anyways. So, for a dungeon like FBI and only in boss fights, it doesn't really matter if we take "Blade Rampart" or not because the enemy never gets combat advantage against us.
    The issue with "Determination" relies on two parts. First, an imposed 180 seconds cooldown on daily use and second it's not as attractive as "Blade Rampart" as it doesn't really help us decrease damage taken.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 796 Arc User
    > @rjc9000 said:
    > (Quote)

    > I'd change the name of Steel Recovery and change its effect to be a "generate more aggro" passive. Simple yet effective. If you want to regenerate Stamina, you should use one of the powers which regen Stamina (Brazen or KC) or slot in Shield Talent.

    I honestly think there is no reason to add more threat generation to the Vanguard. I would love to see more of you captain America ideas tho, as I really like the idea of a pure shield build!
    Elite Whaleboy
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,324 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    I would prefer if feats as a whole were reworked, since there are many that are functional, but they all ultimately want you to do the same thing: "be a good tank". There's no real theme between the paths that opts for a different playstyles, leading to us pretty much just running 1 build because all we're doing is picking which is numerically superior.

    Also, Paladin and goofy Fighter tank ultimately have kind of the same theme to tanking ("I am going to have a shield and protect people") and I can't really point to a distinct difference to their playstyles. If I could, I'd rework Paladin to be more about reducing incoming damage with mitigation and resistance or to be the more support style tank (aka: is more of a buffing like the og Tactician tree), but this ain't the Paladin forum. :p
    wilbur626 said:

    Feats :

    Staying power : Should increase at-will threat modifier from 360% to 800% for 6s
    - DOES NOT WORK AT ALL

    Rising Tide : AoE attacks get +25m dmg for 3 sec upon activating Tide of Iron
    - I see absolutely no reason to use this, as Cleaving Bull has the same effect and is a much better AoE opener. Needs testing.
    Cleaving Bull : AoE attacks get +40m dmg for 6 sec upon activating Charging Bull
    - Threat generated (for AoE attacks, 6 sec duration) : 40*3,6 = 144m
    - Makes Charging Bull the best opener for AoE fights. Charge in and s
    For Staying Power: How do you know Staying Power was supposed to be a move from 360% to 800%?

    For Rising Tides: needs rework, as it is just an inferior Cleaving Bull. Yes, technically, it's supposed to be "balanced" because you can use Tide more often for the AoE damage buff, but to be honest, once you have mob aggro, you have mob aggro and don't need to spam Rising Tide to keep aggro.

    If I were to rework both of these feats ... I would actually do a sort of swap of their effects.

    The new Staying Power would function a bit more like classic Enforced Threat: Enforced Threat would deal ~350 magnitude damage in a 8' radius in addition to its usual effects. That way, if you want AoE aggro, use Cleaving Bull to get into range, and if you somehow lose aggro, pop Enforced Threat+Staying Power to force yourself to the top of mobs' threat list.

    The new Rising Tides would raise the aggro multiplier of Tide to 650%, but the duration of the aggro bonus is lowered to 6 seconds. This could have use on AoE as a basic "generate more aggro" type deal, but also on single target if people somehow can't keep aggro on bosses by mashing Threatening Rush.
    wilbur626 said:


    Critical Deflection : +10 stamina upon successful deflect if deflect = crit chance. 5s cd
    - The 3rd tier of feats is our worst. Critical Deflection is the worst of the worst.
    Combat Balance : Up to-10% damage taken if Crit Avoid = Deflect = Awareness
    - The least bad of the worst

    Most, if not all of asterdahl's classes are plagued by the stupid stat ratio feats (like Crushing Blows, or that weird one on Arbiter that is inferior to sudden verdict), it's not just a goofy fighter thing.

    I really don't see the appeal of these types of feats (yes, ruin your stats for a minor bonus that runs in the background or is too much of a hassle to use) and don't even explain how the chance ratio thing works (If figuring out how Crit Healing wasn't explained in game and took a while to test, have fun figuring out how Combat Balance is calculated). The only passable stat gimmick feat on any of asterdahl's classes is Overpenetration on Barbie, and it's a simple "stack 5000 more ArmorPen than you normally should for 10% more damage", which is simple and easy (well, assuming you are up to date with consulting outside sources on enemy stats).

    As for the 3rd tier of Manguard feats:

    Combat Balance is the best of the worst because it doesn't revolve around a luck based mechanic: don't shield/use the squat and you get the bonus. Also, the bonus goes over the 50% Defense stat cap, so, which is much better and functional over its random luck based counterpart.

    As for how to rework them, I'd personally just go for tying their chance to ability rolls (actually, I'd love for more feats to be tied to ability rolls so they don't just run in the background as things to fool the D&D fans).

    For Critical Deflection, just make it "whenever you block an attack, you have a chance to recover 5% of max Stamina and deal 30 magnitude damage to the attacker. Chance is equal to your DEX ability roll". Still luck based and probably inferior to Combat Balance, but at least this one doesn't ask you to ruin your stats.

    For Combat Balance, I'd make it "Take less damage when not shielding. The damage reduction bonus is equal to your CON score minus 18". Also maybe change the name to "Hearty Constitution" or something like that.
    wilbur626 said:


    Sharpened Senses : Bladed Rampart negates CA dmg vs self
    - Incoming CA dmg negation is a good addition to a very good AoE daily.
    Perfect Block : Determination blocks all attacks at 0 stamina cost for 10s and gets 180cd
    - Makes the CD on Determination too long for it to have any practical use in current state of game. Useless

    I also am not a fan of these daily attack feats, since they only affect specific daily attacks, tend to be flashy but stupidly impractical for normal use, and generally don't affect how I fight in combat as a whole. I would want a rework to feats to change how I approach combat, but I doubt asterdahl has the time to change those feats, so...

    Sharpened Senses is passable. I personally am not keen on negating CA damage, since, in PvE, you can ... position yourself so enemies never get CA on you (might help in PvP). But if you plan to charge into a group of enemies like a Barbarian, you might as well activated Bladed Rampart anyways.

    I recall that Perfect Block actually just blocks attacks from all directions, rather than what you stated and I don't have the "quality assured" tooltips in front of me to confirm which option it is.

    If it's "block attacks from all directions without holding Guard/the squat", it's useless and needs a rework. The angle for shield is already wide enough as is, why waste a daily (and a lackluster one at that) for the ability to be lazy for 10 seconds?

    If it's actually "block all attacks for no Stamina cost", it has some basis as a different panic button aside from Second Wind. I can see it being useful in something like Tower of the Mad Mage's anihilation stacks: when you have lots of stacks, pop it before the shoemaker throws his balls at you and laugh at not dying from millions of damage. But unless you're trying to invoke those "so, you're wondering how I got here" memes, just do the mechanics better so you don't need to run into that situation (and/or use an Eclipse enchant and laugh).
    wilbur626 said:



    Shake It Off : Retaliate gets up to +300m dmg based on remaining stamina
    - Makes one of our best threat generators even better, no-brainer.
    Deep Breathing : +4% dmg and inc heal for 10s every 3s spent dug in, stacks 3 times
    - This simply takes too long to have any practical use in party combat, +12% damage dealt in solo play is very handy tho.

    Bleh, squat feats.

    Shake it Off is fine, though the name is kinda non-indicative (I recall its precursor feat was a laughable feat related to dealing more damage with Earthshaker).

    Deep Breathing should keep its current effect for PvP only.
    In PvE, I would change it to "allies standing 5' behind you take 10% less damage" and rename the feat to Shield Wall (or something other name if dolrey wants to sue me for borrowing an admittedly fantastic idea).

    Yeah, it sucks for solo players who rely on the bonus for damage, and yes, it more or less becomes a clone of the Paladin's Divine Palisade. But at least this one doesn't ask you to stand still in combat for 12 seconds and makes the squat begrudgingly acceptable as a team protection tool.
    Post edited by rjc9000 on

  • hoveristhoverist Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    About "Marathon Runner" - I would change. At the moment, this is present in fighter, barbarian and paladin. the problem with this mechanic is that it doesn't work in combat, but we make the character for combat. For example, if you go To the tower of the Mad Mage, we have a completely non-working ability throughout the adventure. Moving more quickly from one group of enemies to another is good, but it's clearly not what's needed . Most of the time we spend in battle, and much more than in the dashes between groups of enemies.
  • ashesreborn#2913 ashesreborn Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    rjc9000 said:


    I recall that Perfect Block actually just blocks attacks from all directions, rather than what you stated and I don't have the "quality assured" tooltips in front of me to confirm which option it is.

    If it's "block attacks from all directions without holding Guard/the squat", it's useless and needs a rework. The angle for shield is already wide enough as is, why waste a daily (and a lackluster one at that) for the ability to be lazy for 10 seconds?

    If it's actually "block all attacks for no Stamina cost", it has some basis as a different panic button aside from Second Wind. I can see it being useful in something like Tower of the Mad Mage's anihilation stacks: when you have lots of stacks, pop it before the shoemaker throws his balls at you and laugh at not dying from millions of damage. But unless you're trying to invoke those "so, you're wondering how I got here" memes, just do the mechanics better so you don't need to run into that situation (and/or use an Eclipse enchant and laugh).

    I would like to know which of both options applies to "Perfect Block" feat. Tooltip doesn't say anything about directions just once again "blocks most attacks without the use of stamina". If it does the second option it might be useful for single target threats as rjc9000 pointed, moreover for low geared players who have got low stamina regeneration. It would definitely work as a form of mitigation making it a bit more appealing.
  • durugudesudurugudesu Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    KV is a nice panic encounter to keep people alive, for example during IC 2nd boss when someone has resigned to their fate to die and tadaaaa- a tank uses kv and it latches on to them, they survive.

    Also an “option” to reduce threat on a dps, assuming the team has seen/ know about this encounter and placing themselves so the one with higher threat is the one attached to it (but of course for someone not familiar with it and tries to react to mechanics, would probably be shocked to see it and just run like a chicken to break the line).

    i wish they can improve cleaving bull to include the same effect on bosses/single target, but then again it will probably be too overpowered even more so now in terms of feat choices.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,324 Arc User


    I would like to know which of both options applies to "Perfect Block" feat. Tooltip doesn't say anything about directions just once again "blocks most attacks without the use of stamina". If it does the second option it might be useful for single target threats as rjc9000 pointed, moreover for low geared players who have got low stamina regeneration. It would definitely work as a form of mitigation making it a bit more appealing.

    Upon some testing, it's actually the latter: after activating feated Determination, blocking attacks deducts 0 Stamina for 10 seconds. And it gets its own thing in the Combatlog called Perfect Block.



    However, from limited testing, it unfortunately does not work that well for lower geared players.

    When I gave it a whirl in Tower of the Mad Mage, it unfortunately did NOT let me survive the Hollister's Anihilate balls and I Just flat out died when I tried (note: as someone who recently revived my account, I had 400,000 HP and the 50% DR cap, I would not have survived the balls normally).

    I would guess the feat does is the following:

    -if the attack does not break your Guard, it costs 0 Stamina (see my screenshot in the SH moat). If the attack breaks your Guard, then it just applies the damage as normal.

    -Or, maybe it works as intended, but simply does not block the Unavoidable Damage type (read: almost everything that you would want to use this feat for, like, say, discount dracula brink of death, or the Anihilate balls of Tower).

    Either way, the feat sucks: if you can survive the attacks, you don't need Perfect Block anyways and are much better off just using a team protection power like Phalanx. If you need to prepare to survive a big hit, just use Bladed Rampart for the lowered self damage.

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 796 Arc User
    @rjc9000 did you do any testing at all of the unshakable sheildarm mechanic ?
    Elite Whaleboy
  • durugudesudurugudesu Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    @rjc9000 Perfect Block may not block the energy ball from halaster, but it can still be useful there to block those normal attacks from halaster after the energy ball. If you manage to not die from the ball and lose your stamina, perfect block will still make you not take damage from the normal attacks giving healers enough time to bring you back up to full health if ever.

    and i find this fun to use in castle ravenloft during the marathon to the altar where i just attack once and block and laugh because i dont get damaged. >:)
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 796 Arc User
    Quote from @terramak s post INFERNAL DESCENT PREVIEW PATCH NOTES: NW.120.20200330C.5 :

    "Fighter: Ferocious Reaction is no longer incorrectly treated as an Encounter power for triggering other powers, e.g. Combat Superiority or Focused Retaliation."
    Elite Whaleboy
  • durugudesudurugudesu Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    wilbur626 said:

    Quote from @terramak s post INFERNAL DESCENT PREVIEW PATCH NOTES: NW.120.20200330C.5 :

    "Fighter: Ferocious Reaction is no longer incorrectly treated as an Encounter power for triggering other powers, e.g. Combat Superiority or Focused Retaliation."

    i guess i wont be swapping that in and just keep in my anvil of something feat the whole time :))
  • aheroniaheroni Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    Retaliate : AoE, "increased threat", 800% threat generation (600m/900m, 1s, 10cd)
    - Threat generated : 600*8 = 4800m / 900*8 = 7200m
    - Extremely good and underrated "4th encounter", a very good threat generator

    Path of the Vanguard : Increased threat generation (360% increase), +40% hit points, -10% damage dealt



    why not 600*8*3.6=17280m / 900*8*3.6=25920m?
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 796 Arc User
    aheroni said:

    Retaliate : AoE, "increased threat", 800% threat generation (600m/900m, 1s, 10cd)
    - Threat generated : 600*8 = 4800m / 900*8 = 7200m
    - Extremely good and underrated "4th encounter", a very good threat generator

    Path of the Vanguard : Increased threat generation (360% increase), +40% hit points, -10% damage dealt

    why not 600*8*3.6=17280m / 900*8*3.6=25920m?


    Corrected, thanks for the heads up!
    Elite Whaleboy
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 796 Arc User
    @joebot#9387 Please take a look at this post while doing Fighter tweaks for M19
    Elite Whaleboy
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