Official M19: Healing Adjustments

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Comments

  • adsfelipe
    adsfelipe Member Posts: 115 Arc User
    u guys need to understand how the company make money..
    they NEED to change things now and then.. to give players a new goal...
    and that means that u Always will be farming something... that's how they make money

    that's fine because it keep things interesting.
    I'm hyped for the new module and the changes..

    But the shield overwrithing need to be fixx!!!!
  • vanda001
    vanda001 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    vorphied said:

    vanda001 said:

    vanda001 said:

    You guys just detroyed my Warlock build that has cost me couple of Millions of AD and I guess nothing is going to be done about it. I don't feel interested in playing this game anymore, thx.

    From what it looks like right now, the cost part of your build isn't going to change a lot tbh. The playstyle however was destroyed. Agree there.
    Nope, totally waste of AD. I, while a healer, was a supporter to the party. Lots of effects using harrowstorm and that was my main skill and having benefits from soul defiler as trying to do good damage while healing.
    Support on incapacitating enemies with paralysis and knock downs. Many effects comming from companion powers from the hits done by harrowstorm.

    This completely destroyed my warlock build. Good or bad it was my playstile and it was proven to be good so far. Many tought it was original and very helpful.

    I've spent like 3M AD (many from Zen to AD conversion) to have this build on point and now is not helpful anymore. Can use another class, for sure, but just wasted 350K+ AD in campaign patrnage coins.

    So, yes. Playstile + Cost part are destroyed. No benefits at all for me
    I feel your pain. I've fully specced my warlock to be a completely mobile healer that assists with the DPS dealing damage whenever I can, and being able to quickly target and heal while staying with the majority of the group and also keep them alive. I've spent a lot of AD (almost 5mil at this point, if you include the costs of buying stones, enchants, and everything) and it has proved to be very good. I've even finished Infernal Citadel many times with my warlock healer and can do a LoMM run with zero problems, even if every DPS has -25% incoming healing due to those boots. This whole update will not only destroy my warlock, it will destroy my will to play this game.
    Concerns about modification of play style are totally valid, but from a healing perspective I think it's a little early to say that our Soulweavers will be destroyed. If anything, it's possible that they will come out ahead. Even if investments like Outgoing Healing pets remain drastically reduced in effectiveness vs. where they are now, they will likely be BiS.

    Also, it's sad to say, but there is no one doing "good" damage on Soulweaver as it is on live. I used quotes because good is subjective, but none of the healers are putting out meaningful damage except where healing requirements are low and no one else is pulling their weight. Healing Warlock supporting DPS has been basically dead since Temptation was removed from the game (not that Templocks were amazing DPS, but they could contribute some not-insignificant numbers without sacrificing heals).
    Maybe your playstile wasn't allowing you to do "good" damage. For me, I've almost always suprassed the tank and many times suprassed a DPS in damage while healing pretty decent. My playstile allowed me to do this and support very good with effects. Now harrowstorm doesn't damage and cannot be created multiple times so the main part of my playstile is useless as I cannot apply negative effects to enemies and also cannot create a good terrain for tank and dps to be moving. Basically I become super reactive and cannot do anything proactive to help the party.
    I even just used healing paragon for my day to day, not touched the dps basically at all because I could manage solo content without it and pretty easy.
    My bet is that they NEED us to have many loadouts so we can spend more and more to have not one, but two sets of equipment.
  • vorphied
    vorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    vanda001 said:

    vorphied said:

    vanda001 said:

    vanda001 said:

    You guys just detroyed my Warlock build that has cost me couple of Millions of AD and I guess nothing is going to be done about it. I don't feel interested in playing this game anymore, thx.

    From what it looks like right now, the cost part of your build isn't going to change a lot tbh. The playstyle however was destroyed. Agree there.
    Nope, totally waste of AD. I, while a healer, was a supporter to the party. Lots of effects using harrowstorm and that was my main skill and having benefits from soul defiler as trying to do good damage while healing.
    Support on incapacitating enemies with paralysis and knock downs. Many effects comming from companion powers from the hits done by harrowstorm.

    This completely destroyed my warlock build. Good or bad it was my playstile and it was proven to be good so far. Many tought it was original and very helpful.

    I've spent like 3M AD (many from Zen to AD conversion) to have this build on point and now is not helpful anymore. Can use another class, for sure, but just wasted 350K+ AD in campaign patrnage coins.

    So, yes. Playstile + Cost part are destroyed. No benefits at all for me
    I feel your pain. I've fully specced my warlock to be a completely mobile healer that assists with the DPS dealing damage whenever I can, and being able to quickly target and heal while staying with the majority of the group and also keep them alive. I've spent a lot of AD (almost 5mil at this point, if you include the costs of buying stones, enchants, and everything) and it has proved to be very good. I've even finished Infernal Citadel many times with my warlock healer and can do a LoMM run with zero problems, even if every DPS has -25% incoming healing due to those boots. This whole update will not only destroy my warlock, it will destroy my will to play this game.
    Concerns about modification of play style are totally valid, but from a healing perspective I think it's a little early to say that our Soulweavers will be destroyed. If anything, it's possible that they will come out ahead. Even if investments like Outgoing Healing pets remain drastically reduced in effectiveness vs. where they are now, they will likely be BiS.

    Also, it's sad to say, but there is no one doing "good" damage on Soulweaver as it is on live. I used quotes because good is subjective, but none of the healers are putting out meaningful damage except where healing requirements are low and no one else is pulling their weight. Healing Warlock supporting DPS has been basically dead since Temptation was removed from the game (not that Templocks were amazing DPS, but they could contribute some not-insignificant numbers without sacrificing heals).
    Maybe your playstile wasn't allowing you to do "good" damage. For me, I've almost always suprassed the tank and many times suprassed a DPS in damage while healing pretty decent. My playstile allowed me to do this and support very good with effects. Now harrowstorm doesn't damage and cannot be created multiple times so the main part of my playstile is useless as I cannot apply negative effects to enemies and also cannot create a good terrain for tank and dps to be moving. Basically I become super reactive and cannot do anything proactive to help the party.
    I even just used healing paragon for my day to day, not touched the dps basically at all because I could manage solo content without it and pretty easy.
    My bet is that they NEED us to have many loadouts so we can spend more and more to have not one, but two sets of equipment.

    You simply can't do good damage. You can do more damage than a very bad DPS or some tanks, perhaps, but it's not good. Hence my comment.

    You mention Harrowstorm as a keystone ability, and the damage there is terrible. You'd have to be running with a group that took forever to kill things in order for that damage to add up to something significant.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • vanda001
    vanda001 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    vorphied said:

    vanda001 said:

    vorphied said:

    vanda001 said:

    vanda001 said:

    You guys just detroyed my Warlock build that has cost me couple of Millions of AD and I guess nothing is going to be done about it. I don't feel interested in playing this game anymore, thx.

    From what it looks like right now, the cost part of your build isn't going to change a lot tbh. The playstyle however was destroyed. Agree there.
    Nope, totally waste of AD. I, while a healer, was a supporter to the party. Lots of effects using harrowstorm and that was my main skill and having benefits from soul defiler as trying to do good damage while healing.
    Support on incapacitating enemies with paralysis and knock downs. Many effects comming from companion powers from the hits done by harrowstorm.

    This completely destroyed my warlock build. Good or bad it was my playstile and it was proven to be good so far. Many tought it was original and very helpful.

    I've spent like 3M AD (many from Zen to AD conversion) to have this build on point and now is not helpful anymore. Can use another class, for sure, but just wasted 350K+ AD in campaign patrnage coins.

    So, yes. Playstile + Cost part are destroyed. No benefits at all for me
    I feel your pain. I've fully specced my warlock to be a completely mobile healer that assists with the DPS dealing damage whenever I can, and being able to quickly target and heal while staying with the majority of the group and also keep them alive. I've spent a lot of AD (almost 5mil at this point, if you include the costs of buying stones, enchants, and everything) and it has proved to be very good. I've even finished Infernal Citadel many times with my warlock healer and can do a LoMM run with zero problems, even if every DPS has -25% incoming healing due to those boots. This whole update will not only destroy my warlock, it will destroy my will to play this game.
    Concerns about modification of play style are totally valid, but from a healing perspective I think it's a little early to say that our Soulweavers will be destroyed. If anything, it's possible that they will come out ahead. Even if investments like Outgoing Healing pets remain drastically reduced in effectiveness vs. where they are now, they will likely be BiS.

    Also, it's sad to say, but there is no one doing "good" damage on Soulweaver as it is on live. I used quotes because good is subjective, but none of the healers are putting out meaningful damage except where healing requirements are low and no one else is pulling their weight. Healing Warlock supporting DPS has been basically dead since Temptation was removed from the game (not that Templocks were amazing DPS, but they could contribute some not-insignificant numbers without sacrificing heals).
    Maybe your playstile wasn't allowing you to do "good" damage. For me, I've almost always suprassed the tank and many times suprassed a DPS in damage while healing pretty decent. My playstile allowed me to do this and support very good with effects. Now harrowstorm doesn't damage and cannot be created multiple times so the main part of my playstile is useless as I cannot apply negative effects to enemies and also cannot create a good terrain for tank and dps to be moving. Basically I become super reactive and cannot do anything proactive to help the party.
    I even just used healing paragon for my day to day, not touched the dps basically at all because I could manage solo content without it and pretty easy.
    My bet is that they NEED us to have many loadouts so we can spend more and more to have not one, but two sets of equipment.

    You simply can't do good damage. You can do more damage than a very bad DPS or some tanks, perhaps, but it's not good. Hence my comment.

    You mention Harrowstorm as a keystone ability, and the damage there is terrible. You'd have to be running with a group that took forever to kill things in order for that damage to add up to something significant.
    Then again, playstile + build. Mine was focused on this, thats why it worked. I cannot say I was a super healer but a decent one with focus also in suporting. I have a lot of effects that stack in companion powers and equipment + maxed tenebrous that comes a lot with my build. You would simply had to try it to understand it.
  • hadestemplar#9918
    hadestemplar#9918 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,027 Arc User
    edited May 2020


    This problem with warlocks shield overriding add more complicity in balance.
    In one hand if it's override paladins barrier, then Soulweaver( warlock) may got banned from trial runs, cuz no paladin or group would like to lose paladin shielding benefits.

    In other hand, if warlock get ability to stack it's shielding it will make Clerics least welcome healer in trial runs.

    I will try explain how I would try fix that problem.
    And I warn in advance, english is not my prime/main language.



    Changes for Paladins - None
    Note: I think paladins are more then great, and nothing should be changed.


    Changes for Clerics -


    add extra effect either to encounter, or feat( does not matter)
    When cleric use x power, apply temp buff/effect to allies( pick name you prefer)

    version 1
    Effect: Generate barrier over time, by x% of max players Hp, and stack max 40% of players hp.

    Note: Mechanics work same way as heal over time, however this time it's increasing barrier/shield. The rates( quantity per tick, time gap between ticks/procs, buff duration time, and cool downs I leave for staff to decide.

    Also buff/effect does not stack, the barrier generating rates should remain same, regardless how may clerics are in same group.


    Changes for Soulweaver
    Change Barrier to temp HP. Allow it stack up to 40% (max)


    Now the outcome is that, you can have arrange groups by using all three healers in different ways.
    And all their combinations would benefit from each other.

    Lets say you tak Cleric and warlock.
    Combined warlocks temp HP max 40% and clerics max 40% barrier, adds extra layer of protection by 80% of max payers HP.
    And now reason why only up to 40% per cleric and warlock,.
    Well warlock have > - wraith shaow which reduce dealt dmg by 5%.
    And cleric have Astral Shield which reduce taken dmg by 10%,


    Also I think Paladin should remain one who can stack up max shield/protection, after all it's their main atribute :)


    Other possible combinations > Paladin + cleric, supperior shielding/protection + supperior healing.. Benfits for both of them and all group.

    For warlock and Paladin - well warlock offer extra healing, also temp HP for extra moments to allow paladin recover it's divity, and also paldin would not need to got full( 100% shielding ) which allow to save some of divinity for healing.

    Now also lets look how it would look like when they are solo healers.

    Warlocks temp HP which work as barrier would benefit group in most cases. Also temp HP would buy time for warlock to recover soulweaves for his healing powers.
    Cleric - with ability to temporally generate barrier bings extra help to run. Also while buff active and generate barrier, cleric may have moments to recover divinity
    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
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  • vorphied
    vorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    vanda001 said:

    vorphied said:

    vanda001 said:

    vorphied said:

    vanda001 said:

    vanda001 said:

    You guys just detroyed my Warlock build that has cost me couple of Millions of AD and I guess nothing is going to be done about it. I don't feel interested in playing this game anymore, thx.

    From what it looks like right now, the cost part of your build isn't going to change a lot tbh. The playstyle however was destroyed. Agree there.
    Nope, totally waste of AD. I, while a healer, was a supporter to the party. Lots of effects using harrowstorm and that was my main skill and having benefits from soul defiler as trying to do good damage while healing.
    Support on incapacitating enemies with paralysis and knock downs. Many effects comming from companion powers from the hits done by harrowstorm.

    This completely destroyed my warlock build. Good or bad it was my playstile and it was proven to be good so far. Many tought it was original and very helpful.

    I've spent like 3M AD (many from Zen to AD conversion) to have this build on point and now is not helpful anymore. Can use another class, for sure, but just wasted 350K+ AD in campaign patrnage coins.

    So, yes. Playstile + Cost part are destroyed. No benefits at all for me
    I feel your pain. I've fully specced my warlock to be a completely mobile healer that assists with the DPS dealing damage whenever I can, and being able to quickly target and heal while staying with the majority of the group and also keep them alive. I've spent a lot of AD (almost 5mil at this point, if you include the costs of buying stones, enchants, and everything) and it has proved to be very good. I've even finished Infernal Citadel many times with my warlock healer and can do a LoMM run with zero problems, even if every DPS has -25% incoming healing due to those boots. This whole update will not only destroy my warlock, it will destroy my will to play this game.
    Concerns about modification of play style are totally valid, but from a healing perspective I think it's a little early to say that our Soulweavers will be destroyed. If anything, it's possible that they will come out ahead. Even if investments like Outgoing Healing pets remain drastically reduced in effectiveness vs. where they are now, they will likely be BiS.

    Also, it's sad to say, but there is no one doing "good" damage on Soulweaver as it is on live. I used quotes because good is subjective, but none of the healers are putting out meaningful damage except where healing requirements are low and no one else is pulling their weight. Healing Warlock supporting DPS has been basically dead since Temptation was removed from the game (not that Templocks were amazing DPS, but they could contribute some not-insignificant numbers without sacrificing heals).
    Maybe your playstile wasn't allowing you to do "good" damage. For me, I've almost always suprassed the tank and many times suprassed a DPS in damage while healing pretty decent. My playstile allowed me to do this and support very good with effects. Now harrowstorm doesn't damage and cannot be created multiple times so the main part of my playstile is useless as I cannot apply negative effects to enemies and also cannot create a good terrain for tank and dps to be moving. Basically I become super reactive and cannot do anything proactive to help the party.
    I even just used healing paragon for my day to day, not touched the dps basically at all because I could manage solo content without it and pretty easy.
    My bet is that they NEED us to have many loadouts so we can spend more and more to have not one, but two sets of equipment.

    You simply can't do good damage. You can do more damage than a very bad DPS or some tanks, perhaps, but it's not good. Hence my comment.

    You mention Harrowstorm as a keystone ability, and the damage there is terrible. You'd have to be running with a group that took forever to kill things in order for that damage to add up to something significant.
    Then again, playstile + build. Mine was focused on this, thats why it worked. I cannot say I was a super healer but a decent one with focus also in suporting. I have a lot of effects that stack in companion powers and equipment + maxed tenebrous that comes a lot with my build. You would simply had to try it to understand it.

    I understand well and am up to speed with end game things. It's our definition of what's good or useful that's different.

    It's not necessary that we agree, but putting aside the detailed explanations for a moment, I'll say this: Hellbringer does "okay" at AoE. Not great, but not bad. Soulweaver with a focus on damage and the proper build for it is much weaker in AoE, and never mind ST.

    So no, the results are not what I would consider good, and the ceiling on what you can achieve with a damage-focused Soulweaver makes it not a major consideration for M19 adjustment, at least not for me. I empathize with players who are forced to change their preferred playstyle, but at the moment it does not look as if any arguable healing improvement is going to come with a bonus that makes support DPS viable.

    In an ideal state, healers could actually take advantage of the time not spent holding down Tab (or spamming a single At-Will, since Soulweaver currently can gain sparks with Essence Defiler) by contributing meaningful damage, but we're not seeing that on M19. On live...well, you know my opinion on that. It requires investing a lot of resources for a playstyle that is very niche and not even as effective as Templock used to be.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • djnasty93
    djnasty93 Member Posts: 168 Arc User
    The feat that adds 4 stacks of divinity regeneration its not working on dc healer.
  • keru#9279
    keru#9279 Member Posts: 44 Arc User
    > @cavvy#8615 said:
    > > @adsfelipe said:
    > > u guys need to understand how the company make money..
    > > they NEED to change things now and then.. to give players a new goal...
    > > and that means that u Always will be farming something... that's how they make money
    > >
    > > that's fine because it keep things interesting.
    > > I'm hyped for the new module and the changes..
    > >
    > > But the shield overwrithing need to be fixx!!!!
    >
    > When people play an MMO they do not expect their character to be so radically changed it is no longer anything of what it was.
    >
    > People pay money, spend hundreds of hours, they devote their time towards their character.
    >
    > For a developer to change this is such an extreme way shows complete disrespect towards the players. They do not care about the players one bit which is why you end up with rushed bug ridden content, or just things that make no sense whatsoever.
    >
    > That is not how you give players a new goal in a MMO, that has nothing to do with farming anything, and they surely will not be making more money from this. If anything at all the vast majority of healers will quit, making que timers incredibly long for content that will be to hard for the new scab healers to do. Meaning everyone is going to bounce eventually.
    >
    > I have seen it time and time again throughout the MMO world.
    >
    > You've heard this before every mod right? End of the world, chicken little the sky is falling stuff?
    > There is no passion behind these changes, there is no love for the lore or the game, these changes are just pure venom towards the player, pure F U player F U for doing so good F U we don't care about you at all.
    >
    > Remember I told you this.

    Yup. As a Cleric healer i am already discouraged to log back in and play. For what!? I'm starting to think its NOT worth anymore. It's a free to play game, yes, but I wasted a lot of money and wasted my time an all my efforts to have my class where it's
    right now. then the class gets changed, AGAIN!
    And as if it wasnt enough, most grps already preffering Paladins over a Cleric or Warlocks bc of the blue shield, and now with m19 ppl will choose
    Warlocks or Paladins over Clerics.
    And NO, I AM NOT GOING TO BUILD A WARLOCK OR A PALADIN!

    When you pay for or acquire something to build it and achieve the results you want, and someone else comes and messes it all up.......what should we call that?
  • sunshinehappy#2439
    sunshinehappy#2439 Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    I wish they would make all my clerics companions mounts and gear become account bound so i could switch to another class, or give me a class reroll token. I hate the healing and i hate the prophecy of doom rotation in tomm.
  • kiraskytower
    kiraskytower Member Posts: 455 Arc User

    @noworries#8859

    This problem with warlocks shield overriding add more complicity in balance.
    In one hand if it's override paladin shileding, then Soulweaver( warlock) may got banned from trial runs, cuz no paladin would want someone who remove his shielding.

    In other hand, if warlock get ability to stack it's shielding it will make Clerics least welcome healer in trial runs.

    Just remove the temp HP from warlock heals period. Let this be a Paladin thing. Right now it's already over powered, adding more temp HP into the mix just makes it worse, so adding the shields is a disaster and as @hadestemplar#9918 above said, leaving it like it is (Where the warlock shields replace the paladin ones) basically makes warlock healers unusable in any kind of trial (or even large HE).
    PandorasMisfits_Logo_175_zpskpytcqxc.png
    Winter Lily (CW) / Winter Rose (DC) / Winter Ivy (HR)
    Pandora's Misfits Guild Leader
  • valehru29
    valehru29 Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    If the shield is the problem at the moment with the paladin, why not just remove it?
    Let others healers as they are and give the paladin someting else, like:
    - 10% damage reduction buff when healed by a paladin for 20s
    - Make the last feat from the paladin add 5% more damage reduction when the heal is crit / or something else
    With less healing capacity than others healers, it should synergize well with a dc and a sw without being overpowerfull.
  • midental#5256
    midental#5256 Member Posts: 134 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    Exactly, synergy is the key. Everyone wants synergy with others to make groups not toons that can do everything alone.....
  • nigantar
    nigantar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    Feedback Devout Cleric

    Mechanics:

    Mark of Divinity:
    There is a huge problem with the visibility of the mark. Applied to a Tank its close to impossible to see if the Tank is marked or not. Thats because of the Health- and Staminabar. ( only a visual problem in a Trial when u need to see the Healthbars of all 10 Players. In five-man-content you can disable the Healthbars, so you are fine ).
    Marking the Tank while he is tanking a boss is another problem cause u need to run around in front of the boss and then mark. Thats because of the Hitbox of the boss ( Zariel is a bodyblock-monster ).
    Sometimes the Mark simply disappears for no reason ( and its not because i used tab or moved to far away or stuff like that ). I havent figured out yet where the problem is. In my opinion thats a huge problem because you cant „trust“ your mark. It happened to me several times during Zariel-Trial and that was not fun.

    Light of Divinity:
    The cast time is a bit too long. If the Tank is hammered down to like 20 % HP he needs healing asap and not 2.5 sec later. Instead of burst heal a heal over time effect would be a solution.

    At-Wills:

    Soothe:
    Nice one. Maybe the cast time of 1 sec is a bit too long ( dont know why healing powers in general are designed to have long cast times – i dont get it ).
    Another general problem with At-Wills is that you slot Soothe and Blessing of Light. So you are unable to attack and you cant proc stuff like „Escalating Might“ or Holy Avenger ( weapon enchantment ).

    Encounter:

    Bastion of Health:
    I think the divinity costs of 200 is way too high. You should decrease the divinity costs to 100-150 and decrease the heal magnitude so that the cleric is able to use some synergies ( Battle Prayer/Gathering Light ). If you do that will resolve in a more active gameplay. General speaking: Bastion of Health went from hero to zero ( all my Zariel finishes were done without having Bastion of Health slotted ).

    Healing Word:
    Nice one. Maybe you could change the heal over time effect to tick per second ( 100 magnitude per sec instead of 300 magnitude all 3 sec ).

    Astral Shield:
    Nice one. I would like to see this Encounter work like the old Astral Shield ( bigger area of effect, with cooldown and without channeling ).

    Divine Glow:
    Maybe you should lower the cooldown or increase the Divinty Regeneration. The Cleric needs some active ways to regenerate Divinity faster ( bad gameplay atm ).


    Feats:

    Repeated Blessings:
    Close to useless due to the high divinity costs of Bastion of Health ( as i mentioned above this is a synergy that would take place if you lower the divinity costs of Bastion ).

    Cycle of Prayer:
    Close to useless. The Cleric uses „actions that consumes divinity“ all the time so that Feat wont stack up. If you change the Feat to „Effect is reset whenever an Encouter consumes divinity“ that might would help. But even if you do nothing that Feat wont give you a nice amount of divinity. Think it could use a little rework ( increase the effect by far ).

    Battle Prayer:
    This Feat needs to have a buff icon in your buff bar!
    The divinity costs of the encounter powers are too hight atm so you cant rly use that Feat consistently ( as i mentioned above this is a synergy that would take place if you lower the divinity costs of Bastion ). If Astral Shield would be counted as an „Encounter that costs divinity“ there would be a synergie aswell.

    Towering Light:
    Most useless Feat. I only mention that because its the perfect Feat for beeing replaced with another one. The Cleric has major problems with active divinity regeneration and that leads to a bad gameplay cause the only thing you can do is to stand around and watch your divinity bar to regenerate. Maybe you should replace it with a Feat like: „There is a 25% change to dont spend divinity on your next encounter that costs divinity“. Something like that – i think you get my point there.

    Gathering Light:
    The Area of Effect is way too small. You cant rly use that Feat. The cast time of 3 sec might be a bit too long – you should lower that ( 3 secs is an eternity for a healer ). ( as i mentioned above this is a synergy that would take place if you lower the divinity costs of Bastion ).

    Angel of Life:
    The casttime is way too long. 4 secs are huge. You should lower that to like 3 secs.

    General:
    The gemeplay of the Cleric became a bit boring/lame with these changes. You need to adjust stuff to make the gameplay more „active“. The low divinity regeneration, the high divinity costs of „key-encounters“ and the fact that you cant do anything about it ( except Divine Glow ) are main issues.


    Potato english ftw ;)

    WE NEED BETTER LOOT FROM ZARIEL TRIAL!
  • midental#5256
    midental#5256 Member Posts: 134 Arc User
    Only one question.... why DEV won't take a part in this discussion? I think a lot of ppl have done nice pov..... so why?
  • gabrieldourden
    gabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    Taking about SW I see immediately two issues.
    - no more cleanse available. This will make SW less desirable in all dungeons/trials where there are effects that need cleansing like the Manticore's poison. Either all healers have a cleanse or none has it. Like this there is too much disparity.
    - removing damage from Harrowstorm will make all campaign quests a total pain. Cumulating Harrowstorms was pretty much the only way to kill enemies during daily and weekly quests, especially since Killing Flames was moved to Hellbringer.
    vorphied said:

    vanda001 said:

    vorphied said:

    vanda001 said:

    vanda001 said:

    You guys just detroyed my Warlock build that has cost me couple of Millions of AD and I guess nothing is going to be done about it. I don't feel interested in playing this game anymore, thx.

    From what it looks like right now, the cost part of your build isn't going to change a lot tbh. The playstyle however was destroyed. Agree there.
    Nope, totally waste of AD. I, while a healer, was a supporter to the party. Lots of effects using harrowstorm and that was my main skill and having benefits from soul defiler as trying to do good damage while healing.
    Support on incapacitating enemies with paralysis and knock downs. Many effects comming from companion powers from the hits done by harrowstorm.

    This completely destroyed my warlock build. Good or bad it was my playstile and it was proven to be good so far. Many tought it was original and very helpful.

    I've spent like 3M AD (many from Zen to AD conversion) to have this build on point and now is not helpful anymore. Can use another class, for sure, but just wasted 350K+ AD in campaign patrnage coins.

    So, yes. Playstile + Cost part are destroyed. No benefits at all for me
    I feel your pain. I've fully specced my warlock to be a completely mobile healer that assists with the DPS dealing damage whenever I can, and being able to quickly target and heal while staying with the majority of the group and also keep them alive. I've spent a lot of AD (almost 5mil at this point, if you include the costs of buying stones, enchants, and everything) and it has proved to be very good. I've even finished Infernal Citadel many times with my warlock healer and can do a LoMM run with zero problems, even if every DPS has -25% incoming healing due to those boots. This whole update will not only destroy my warlock, it will destroy my will to play this game.
    Concerns about modification of play style are totally valid, but from a healing perspective I think it's a little early to say that our Soulweavers will be destroyed. If anything, it's possible that they will come out ahead. Even if investments like Outgoing Healing pets remain drastically reduced in effectiveness vs. where they are now, they will likely be BiS.

    Also, it's sad to say, but there is no one doing "good" damage on Soulweaver as it is on live. I used quotes because good is subjective, but none of the healers are putting out meaningful damage except where healing requirements are low and no one else is pulling their weight. Healing Warlock supporting DPS has been basically dead since Temptation was removed from the game (not that Templocks were amazing DPS, but they could contribute some not-insignificant numbers without sacrificing heals).
    Maybe your playstile wasn't allowing you to do "good" damage. For me, I've almost always suprassed the tank and many times suprassed a DPS in damage while healing pretty decent. My playstile allowed me to do this and support very good with effects. Now harrowstorm doesn't damage and cannot be created multiple times so the main part of my playstile is useless as I cannot apply negative effects to enemies and also cannot create a good terrain for tank and dps to be moving. Basically I become super reactive and cannot do anything proactive to help the party.
    I even just used healing paragon for my day to day, not touched the dps basically at all because I could manage solo content without it and pretty easy.
    My bet is that they NEED us to have many loadouts so we can spend more and more to have not one, but two sets of equipment.

    You simply can't do good damage. You can do more damage than a very bad DPS or some tanks, perhaps, but it's not good. Hence my comment.

    You mention Harrowstorm as a keystone ability, and the damage there is terrible. You'd have to be running with a group that took forever to kill things in order for that damage to add up to something significant.
    No. Harrowstorm does more than decent damage in live if you stack it and is pretty much what makes daily quests doable without changing to Hellbringer, for those who don't like being dps. Taking away damage from Harrowstorm is pretty much forcing Soulweavers to convert to Hellbringers for all the daily campaign farming, which takes a good deal of the time of a player.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • alquimistgg#0914
    alquimistgg#0914 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    edited May 2020

    Exactly, synergy is the key. Everyone wants synergy with others to make groups not toons that can do everything alone.....


    Suggestion:

    you can take into account that HellPact should not only address specific skills, but add shield mechanics to almost all skills that generate healing similar to what PL does and so it should be for CL. Soon we have some adjustment possibilities at hand so that these Shield mechanics can be better elaborated. What we are looking for here is an option where any of the 3 Healers can choose between being responsible for the shield in a trial or responsible for the HoT, this makes it possible for PL also to play without generating a shield but more focused on gross healing. Regarding a general Shield mechanic for the classes, it would be very interesting if all shields protect only 50% of the damage and or another 50% were removed from the red life, this would give an additional purpose to have healers without a focus on shield.
    I can well imagine a pleasant synergy in a general and balanced shield system vs Heal and HoT, available for all healer classes. With this suggestion of the 50% protection limit (this percentage only serves as an example for the mechanics), no matter how much shield the Healer responsible for adding, there will always be a need for the other healer (focused on HoT) to maintain 100% health, as party members will always take a percentage of damage even though they are protected by a shield from one of the 3 Healers.
  • alquimistgg#0914
    alquimistgg#0914 Member Posts: 133 Arc User

    @noworries#8859

    This problem with warlocks shield overriding add more complicity in balance.
    In one hand if it's override paladin shileding, then Soulweaver( warlock) may got banned from trial runs, cuz no paladin would want someone who remove his shielding.

    In other hand, if warlock get ability to stack it's shielding it will make Clerics least welcome healer in trial runs.

    Just remove the temp HP from warlock heals period. Let this be a Paladin thing. Right now it's already over powered, adding more temp HP into the mix just makes it worse, so adding the shields is a disaster and as @hadestemplar#9918 above said, leaving it like it is (Where the warlock shields replace the paladin ones) basically makes warlock healers unusable in any kind of trial (or even large HE).
    the Warlock shield system is already optional in the preview, it’s a feat that activates shields or HoT depending on the choice, similar mechanisms should be applied to everyone, WL CL and PL, so that everyone can have appropriate roles with their own characteristics in mechanics. Assessing the pattern of launches like TOMM, and now Zariel, it is very segregating that you leave Shield mechanics only for one class of healer.
  • xenocide#6119
    xenocide#6119 Member Posts: 251 Arc User
    If the warlock sheild overwrites the paladin one and you know this, maybe you should have a second load out for running with paladins, and maybe a seperate one for running without paladins?
  • vorphied
    vorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    > @gabrieldourden said:
    > Taking about SW I see immediately two issues.
    > - no more cleanse available. This will make SW less desirable in all dungeons/trials where there are effects that need cleansing like the Manticore's poison. Either all healers have a cleanse or none has it. Like this there is too much disparity.
    > - removing damage from Harrowstorm will make all campaign quests a total pain. Cumulating Harrowstorms was pretty much the only way to kill enemies during daily and weekly quests, especially since Killing Flames was moved to Hellbringer. (Quote)
    > No. Harrowstorm does more than decent damage in live if you stack it and is pretty much what makes daily quests doable without changing to Hellbringer, for those who don't like being dps. Taking away damage from Harrowstorm is pretty much forcing Soulweavers to convert to Hellbringers for all the daily campaign farming, which takes a good deal of the time of a player.


    I’m aware of how it can stack; it’s not good damage.

    If you mean that killing mobs on the map is “good,” then sure, it will do something. But that’s a very low bar.

    Just because it’s possible to do daily solo content as a healer doesn’t mean it’s a great idea when you have the option to use a path that’s 100% better suited to it. We have different paths and loadouts for good reason.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • ctrlaltdel000
    ctrlaltdel000 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    During Zariel's Challenge, the Warlock's tab mechanic, Lifepact, still instantly drains much more than 60 Soulweave per second when activated.
  • gabrieldourden
    gabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    vorphied said:

    > @gabrieldourden said:

    > Taking about SW I see immediately two issues.

    > - no more cleanse available. This will make SW less desirable in all dungeons/trials where there are effects that need cleansing like the Manticore's poison. Either all healers have a cleanse or none has it. Like this there is too much disparity.

    > - removing damage from Harrowstorm will make all campaign quests a total pain. Cumulating Harrowstorms was pretty much the only way to kill enemies during daily and weekly quests, especially since Killing Flames was moved to Hellbringer. (Quote)

    > No. Harrowstorm does more than decent damage in live if you stack it and is pretty much what makes daily quests doable without changing to Hellbringer, for those who don't like being dps. Taking away damage from Harrowstorm is pretty much forcing Soulweavers to convert to Hellbringers for all the daily campaign farming, which takes a good deal of the time of a player.





    I’m aware of how it can stack; it’s not good damage.



    If you mean that killing mobs on the map is “good,” then sure, it will do something. But that’s a very low bar.



    Just because it’s possible to do daily solo content as a healer doesn’t mean it’s a great idea when you have the option to use a path that’s 100% better suited to it. We have different paths and loadouts for good reason.

    No. People should be able to use only one path for daily stuff if they don't like the other.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • vanda001
    vanda001 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    vorphied said:

    > @gabrieldourden said:

    > Taking about SW I see immediately two issues.

    > - no more cleanse available. This will make SW less desirable in all dungeons/trials where there are effects that need cleansing like the Manticore's poison. Either all healers have a cleanse or none has it. Like this there is too much disparity.

    > - removing damage from Harrowstorm will make all campaign quests a total pain. Cumulating Harrowstorms was pretty much the only way to kill enemies during daily and weekly quests, especially since Killing Flames was moved to Hellbringer. (Quote)

    > No. Harrowstorm does more than decent damage in live if you stack it and is pretty much what makes daily quests doable without changing to Hellbringer, for those who don't like being dps. Taking away damage from Harrowstorm is pretty much forcing Soulweavers to convert to Hellbringers for all the daily campaign farming, which takes a good deal of the time of a player.





    I’m aware of how it can stack; it’s not good damage.



    If you mean that killing mobs on the map is “good,” then sure, it will do something. But that’s a very low bar.



    Just because it’s possible to do daily solo content as a healer doesn’t mean it’s a great idea when you have the option to use a path that’s 100% better suited to it. We have different paths and loadouts for good reason.

    Sorry dude, you seem very tied to your ideas. For what I can understand, you'd be very surprised of the damage I can do as a healer. A friend (fighter) and I, as healer, run daily watcher (3 runes) ME without any trouble and really fast, even tho I'm only 22.3K gear score. The thing is to work on that build and style to make it work that way
    I tottaly agree with @gabrieldourden and this is the part that hurts the most with these changes.

    You may think the bar is low and damage is low or many things, but you would have to use it to understand how hard those changes hit.

    I even didn't have the need to use the DPS, and while DPS I can do very good damage (I could say an average of 30 - 50% 1 place in damage, and the rest second place). As a healer, I couldn't do that much damage but something close and I enjoyed it a lot and worked better agains AoE than the DPS.

    But tbh, those changes are going to be in place. So for me seems that is another couple of years out of the game as this is the second time my build is completely destroyed, so it will be the second time I leave.
  • vorphied
    vorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    vanda001 said:

    vorphied said:

    > @gabrieldourden said:

    > Taking about SW I see immediately two issues.

    > - no more cleanse available. This will make SW less desirable in all dungeons/trials where there are effects that need cleansing like the Manticore's poison. Either all healers have a cleanse or none has it. Like this there is too much disparity.

    > - removing damage from Harrowstorm will make all campaign quests a total pain. Cumulating Harrowstorms was pretty much the only way to kill enemies during daily and weekly quests, especially since Killing Flames was moved to Hellbringer. (Quote)

    > No. Harrowstorm does more than decent damage in live if you stack it and is pretty much what makes daily quests doable without changing to Hellbringer, for those who don't like being dps. Taking away damage from Harrowstorm is pretty much forcing Soulweavers to convert to Hellbringers for all the daily campaign farming, which takes a good deal of the time of a player.





    I’m aware of how it can stack; it’s not good damage.



    If you mean that killing mobs on the map is “good,” then sure, it will do something. But that’s a very low bar.



    Just because it’s possible to do daily solo content as a healer doesn’t mean it’s a great idea when you have the option to use a path that’s 100% better suited to it. We have different paths and loadouts for good reason.

    Sorry dude, you seem very tied to your ideas. For what I can understand, you'd be very surprised of the damage I can do as a healer. A friend (fighter) and I, as healer, run daily watcher (3 runes) ME without any trouble and really fast, even tho I'm only 22.3K gear score. The thing is to work on that build and style to make it work that way
    I tottaly agree with @gabrieldourden and this is the part that hurts the most with these changes.

    You may think the bar is low and damage is low or many things, but you would have to use it to understand how hard those changes hit.

    I even didn't have the need to use the DPS, and while DPS I can do very good damage (I could say an average of 30 - 50% 1 place in damage, and the rest second place). As a healer, I couldn't do that much damage but something close and I enjoyed it a lot and worked better agains AoE than the DPS.

    But tbh, those changes are going to be in place. So for me seems that is another couple of years out of the game as this is the second time my build is completely destroyed, so it will be the second time I leave.
    On one hand, as I said, I sympathize when players complain that their preferred play style is being changed or effectively removed.

    On the other, I'm not sure that healer DPS capability should be a major concern for game design at the moment, not unless some changes are made to accommodate and encourage it going forward.

    If I seem tied to my ideas, you seem tied to the notion that I would agree with you if I could only understand what you're talking about. The fact is that I do understand and still disagree with you because, from what you are saying, you are basing your opinion on your character's performance in very easy content and with players who are less skilled than you and who may even be lacking essential DPS equipment that you seem to have acquired for your healing loadout (again, just based on what you've said so far).

    Sometimes all of the character-building in the world isn't going to make your character well-suited for the role you want it to have. If your goal is to play Soulweaver in basic dungeons and MEs where healing requirements are minimal and other players may not be at your level, then you will consistently find that your build is successful, if slower at getting the job done than Hellbringer. A DPS-focused Soulweaver isn't welcome in places like ToMM, Zariel, or even TiC; the damage isn't good enough compared to what needs to be delivered, and the healing is more important to content completion anyway.

    I feel like we're at risk of running off completely into the woods, so to tie it back together, my position is that Soulweaver changes are necessary to keep it competitive in its role, especially at end-game. I'm not sold on all of the changes so far, but I would accept even less DPS capacity in exchange for more meaningful supportive actions since DPS is not the focus on the path itself. Again, I actually enjoy healer DPS, but this game is currently not set up to encourage it despite the initial M19 changes to Tab resource management.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • xander#0631
    xander#0631 Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    i think that the real problem may be related in the fact that in a lot of cases 1 hit =1 kill without a bue bar.

    zariel 'at will' hit for 1 mill, top tank have 1 mill hp, 2-3 hit and they die, and those are 'at will' ideally a tank shouldn't even lift the shield to keep it for the high damage powers, and have the healer keep him alive.

    pre mod 16 the paladin was immortal because he can pump his own HP, the other tank class were useless because they couldn't.
    now this power was shifted to the paladin tank to the paladin healer, but the problem is the same: increasing the hp make character tankier--> need more damage from enemies to make it meaningful --> all of those that can't increase the HP will have less appeal.

    having the hp bar that keep depleting and refilling (what we would see with a normal healer) is not liked by tank and dps because a wrong move from healer or from them and they die.
    this was the reason that all the dps, save GWF and GF, were called glass cannon: they could do damage, but could also be killed in one hit.

    i thought a lot about the classes and i don't like the idea of giving temp HP or shield to other classes (at least i don't want it on my cleric it doeasn't sound like a 'cleric power'), that is a paladin thing, if we all have the same powers, with different names, and different animation sure we could reach balance (we are all the same thing, with the same power, the same effects, more balance than this.., it's an exageration, i know, but fit the example) but we loose the entire meaning behind chosing a class.
    would you give sword power to a mage? stealth skill to a dreadnought? curse to a cleric? the same thing.
    (this is not the place, but the same thing can be said about tank, the tank role have to beheave all the same, there isn't much difference in playstile between them all have to take aggro and survive, and have to do it in the same way).

    if we get to have less damage done by the boss, then the dungeon became too easy, people crit for 6mill damage and can spam those, if they are even thankier... the only solution vould be increasing the HP of the boss, extending the time of the battle but not making it more enjoyable.

    i don't have a solution only some ideas, but don't make all classes do the same thing.

    some ideas:

    1. no more blue shield from paladin, instead a new mechanics give a x stack buff (like boar hide), when you take damage you get healed for y magnitude amd loose a stack. --> it may work or it may be trash, but at least it doesnt exponentially increase the survivability of the party.

    2. warlock, i don't know the class so this is only a thing that i'd like to see, curse the target, once every second the taget is hit the the player at less than d feet get healed for x magnitude, can stack up to 2 times, last for 10 sec

    3. like i said in another post, think about other way to reach the same objective:
    - paladin shield,
    -cleric 'this power increase the damage resistance of the allies by x %, upon expire it heal the targets by y magnitude' (to give maybe to divine glow, with the old grafical effect, i really reeeeeeally liked the grafical effect of divine glow),
    - warlock 'this power curse the enemies, drecreasing their damage by x%, upon expire it heals the allies nearer than d feet by y magnitude'

    4. if nothing come then give them all the possibility of giving shield or temp hp could be:
    -paladin 'rise a divine barrier to shield your allies from incoming damage up to x% of their HP, last y sec' (blue bar)
    -cleric 'your divine power create an armor around the allies, that increase their hp up to x%, last y sec' (increase the value like the food buff, or give a white bar, because cleric=white)
    -warlock 'you weave the souls of your allies in battle filling them with vitality, giving them up to x% of temp hp, last y sec (yellow bar)
    they do exactly the same thing, but al least it doesn't seems so at first glance.


    i dind't thought it would become this wall of text.

    --reposted because edit eliminated comment --
    reality is what most recognize as true
  • hastati96
    hastati96 Member Posts: 481 Arc User
    edited May 2020

    New Tab mechanic feels cluncky

    The new tab mechanic forces you to stay still during the charge process. A big improvement would be if you could move during the charging. A DC for example has a charge time of 3 seconds. This is very cumbersome in the new trial for example. Healers also have to do mechanics so the healer can't even cast a healing encounter / new tab on the tanks for example.

    My suggestion: Allow healers to move if they charge their new Tab mechanic.
    Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
  • vorphied
    vorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User

    it's an exageration, i know, but fit the example) but we loose the entire meaning behind chosing a class. would you give sword power to a mage? stealth skill to a dreadnought? curse to a cleric? the same thing.

    I know I've been playing fantasy games and reading the literature for too long, because I immediately thought of the ways in which those things do fit certain variations of those classes ;)
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • xander#0631
    xander#0631 Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    @vorphied lol, me too :3
    reality is what most recognize as true