I mean without it, new players experience is ruined, and with it, most people dont care, no one I've ever spoken to in game was against it becuase it can only enhance the experience for everyone when done right.
Besides your opinions wont change what is coming this year. I hope it is a good system and I hope you come around to liking it, or that you find some bizzare game with awful devs who dont implement one to play instead.
Fun fact, nobody stopped having fun because of a well implemented scaling system ever. Fun fact- it improves fun for all, but newer players most.
I'd be VERY interested in seeing a compelling argument to the contrary- as one cannot logically exist.
2
Options
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited May 2020
"Think from the mind of a developer," was how this thread started.
I did. Not all, "developers," share the same opinions. There are plenty of "developers" who think level scaling is awful, for the reasons I outlined above. Some of the ones who do, incidentally, go on and make some very good games. I would name some of them, but somehow I don't think you would recognize any of them.
And as for your, "fun facts," well, claiming something is a fact, does not in fact make it one. You claimed an absolute, "nobody quit because scaling," and I can guarantee you that at least 1 person would. It is pretty much a given that people will quit over scaling, because believe it or not, people are not universally the same and it doesn't matter what the item in question is, there will always be people who like (and dislike) said system.
As for, "compelling argument," it was given on page 1, in my first response, which you conveniently ignored. I suggest going back and reading it. Said "compelling argument" also explains why you don't need level scaling to prevent the new player experience from being ruined. Saying, "new player experience is ruined without level scaling" does not make it so.
Also I suggest looking a bit closer at people's responses, there are plenty of us nobodies in this thread who dislike level scaling, so saying nobody dislikes it implies you missed all of us.
I played WoW for years, left several years ago, and there was never scaling of players in content. Also, City of Heroes and DC Universe Online, again I do not remember players being scaled in content. So, I will go out on a limb and say with full confidence there are many non bizzare games in which the player is not scaled, and I am sure not all the Devs in non scaled games are awful.
I love the argument that without scaling the experience of new players is ruined. That is a gem - do you remember the time when the scaling was introduced?
We moved from the days "Hard time to beat it? Grind a level, buy new equip, try again!" to "Double experience week? You are screwed, since you are 10 levels higher then the mobs, you can only dream about squishing that cockroach anymore."
And remember the days when you could learn how to play the content? I mean, you picked up a carrier and experimented with low level of responsibility... That is gone. Rewards adequate the difficulty? You could run a dungeon for a meagre reward, or select K-Team challenge aiming for end-game gear? Gone. Mandatory hardcore setting does not fit everyone.
Lets not lie here. The scaling was aimed as one of the tools to to gut the game to the bone. And it worked - all those various aspects and systems connected into a single WTF moment.
And we are back to the execution. Plans are nice, but the results are more important. ATM the scaling is either turned off, gives ridiculous results, or annihilates learning opportunities and the reward/effort ratio. Those things need to be addressed - and everything could have been avoided by taking a different approach.
I am honestly curious about the new scaling the devs are cooking. And I hope the days "Content too difficult? Get naked!" will be gone with it. This... is really ridiculous.
And... it is a time for you to realize that most of the uproar against scaling is not about inability to annihilate the whole map in one swing, but because what was delivered was an overcomplicated and badly implemented atrocity that put the whole bunch of DnD principles on its head.
This, and this alone is why scaling should be thrown out the window. Scaling has no place in a DnD branded game.
Now if scaling is going to stay they need to fix it, badly. As it stands now Malabogs castle is harder than FBI. That makes no sense.
The way scaling should work is this:
If my character has his stats at say 110% of cap in the unscaled lvl 80 dungeons, then when he goes back to Malabogs Castle, he should be at 110% of the caps for Malabogs Castle.
And adding scaling to LoMM when they did was not a good plan. It also should be removed from the random qs as it is not possible to finish with a pug.
I played WoW for years, left several years ago, and there was never scaling of players in content. Also, City of Heroes and DC Universe Online, again I do not remember players being scaled in content. So, I will go out on a limb and say with full confidence there are many non bizzare games in which the player is not scaled, and I am sure not all the Devs in non scaled games are awful.
City of Heroes had scaling in almost everything. DCUO is so crappy I dont remember. WoW sucks for many reasons and no scaling is one of them.
one of the most universally loved features in cryptics other games was the ability to scale oneself to team leaders level. Maybe those games just have more thoughtful communities.
NW is like the game where they decided to do NONE of the good things their previous games did. they've slowly added some of those features recently but NW is missing a whole lot of good stuff their other games had for no reason.
2
Options
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Repeating the same mantra over and over again of, "it is required for such a game" does not make it true. There are successful mmos without scaling, which clearly shows that level scaling is not a requirement for success.
It is your subjective opinion that level scaling is good, this does not make it true and many of us in this thread disagree, for reasons already stated.
I won't even delve into arguing about whether scaling is good or bad. It has it's place and NW has failed to install a good scaling system (to this point). I've also played plenty of good games that had no scaling. To make a blanket argument is just silly.
Your entire argument has revolved around "if you don't like scaling you're selfish". One could say your statements apply to your views as well. You selfishly enjoy something and then come here with an argument of "i think scaling works and so do the 10 people i talk too about it".
As for, "i don't hear people complaining about scaling"? You must have deaf ears and blind eyes because this community and these forums have been complaining about scaling for a long time now.
All you've done is express your opinion. And having one does not make it good or in line with the majority.
> @gradii said: > Scaling has a place in every online MMORPG in existance regardless of setting because it is simply required for such a game. > > If levels exist in an MMO, scaling must too exist. no one said it has to be done in a bad way, but it must be done, in a good way.
You have an unfortunate tendency of stating your personal views as 'fact' while not offering one iota of credible evidence. You are also new to the game, and have been busy trying to throw around whatever weight it is you think you have; frankly it is coming across as a mixture of ignorance and arrogance. Perhaps you're trying to overcompensate for something or other, but whatever the case may be, you have absolutely not paid your dues in this game to be trying to climb up that high on this proverbial horse.
Wanting to engage in a game's potential development is well and good, and yet there is also a time and place to familiarize oneself with the lay of the land before trying to rock the boat. (That piece if advice will also serve you well in the real-world working sector.)
Comments
Besides your opinions wont change what is coming this year. I hope it is a good system and I hope you come around to liking it, or that you find some bizzare game with awful devs who dont implement one to play instead.
Fun fact, nobody stopped having fun because of a well implemented scaling system ever. Fun fact- it improves fun for all, but newer players most.
I'd be VERY interested in seeing a compelling argument to the contrary- as one cannot logically exist.
I did. Not all, "developers," share the same opinions. There are plenty of "developers" who think level scaling is awful, for the reasons I outlined above. Some of the ones who do, incidentally, go on and make some very good games. I would name some of them, but somehow I don't think you would recognize any of them.
And as for your, "fun facts," well, claiming something is a fact, does not in fact make it one. You claimed an absolute, "nobody quit because scaling," and I can guarantee you that at least 1 person would. It is pretty much a given that people will quit over scaling, because believe it or not, people are not universally the same and it doesn't matter what the item in question is, there will always be people who like (and dislike) said system.
As for, "compelling argument," it was given on page 1, in my first response, which you conveniently ignored. I suggest going back and reading it. Said "compelling argument" also explains why you don't need level scaling to prevent the new player experience from being ruined. Saying, "new player experience is ruined without level scaling" does not make it so.
Also I suggest looking a bit closer at people's responses, there are plenty of us nobodies in this thread who dislike level scaling, so saying nobody dislikes it implies you missed all of us.
We moved from the days "Hard time to beat it? Grind a level, buy new equip, try again!" to "Double experience week? You are screwed, since you are 10 levels higher then the mobs, you can only dream about squishing that cockroach anymore."
And remember the days when you could learn how to play the content? I mean, you picked up a carrier and experimented with low level of responsibility... That is gone. Rewards adequate the difficulty? You could run a dungeon for a meagre reward, or select K-Team challenge aiming for end-game gear? Gone.
Mandatory hardcore setting does not fit everyone.
Lets not lie here. The scaling was aimed as one of the tools to to gut the game to the bone. And it worked - all those various aspects and systems connected into a single WTF moment.
And we are back to the execution. Plans are nice, but the results are more important. ATM the scaling is either turned off, gives ridiculous results, or annihilates learning opportunities and the reward/effort ratio. Those things need to be addressed - and everything could have been avoided by taking a different approach.
I am honestly curious about the new scaling the devs are cooking. And I hope the days "Content too difficult? Get naked!" will be gone with it. This... is really ridiculous.
Now if scaling is going to stay they need to fix it, badly. As it stands now Malabogs castle is harder than FBI. That makes no sense.
The way scaling should work is this:
If my character has his stats at say 110% of cap in the unscaled lvl 80 dungeons, then when he goes back to Malabogs Castle, he should be at 110% of the caps for Malabogs Castle.
And adding scaling to LoMM when they did was not a good plan. It also should be removed from the random qs as it is not possible to finish with a pug.
If levels exist in an MMO, scaling must too exist. no one said it has to be done in a bad way, but it must be done, in a good way.
one of the most universally loved features in cryptics other games was the ability to scale oneself to team leaders level. Maybe those games just have more thoughtful communities.
NW is like the game where they decided to do NONE of the good things their previous games did. they've slowly added some of those features recently but NW is missing a whole lot of good stuff their other games had for no reason.
It is your subjective opinion that level scaling is good, this does not make it true and many of us in this thread disagree, for reasons already stated.
Your entire argument has revolved around "if you don't like scaling you're selfish". One could say your statements apply to your views as well. You selfishly enjoy something and then come here with an argument of "i think scaling works and so do the 10 people i talk too about it".
As for, "i don't hear people complaining about scaling"? You must have deaf ears and blind eyes because this community and these forums have been complaining about scaling for a long time now.
All you've done is express your opinion. And having one does not make it good or in line with the majority.
> Scaling has a place in every online MMORPG in existance regardless of setting because it is simply required for such a game.
>
> If levels exist in an MMO, scaling must too exist. no one said it has to be done in a bad way, but it must be done, in a good way.
You have an unfortunate tendency of stating your personal views as 'fact' while not offering one iota of credible evidence. You are also new to the game, and have been busy trying to throw around whatever weight it is you think you have; frankly it is coming across as a mixture of ignorance and arrogance. Perhaps you're trying to overcompensate for something or other, but whatever the case may be, you have absolutely not paid your dues in this game to be trying to climb up that high on this proverbial horse.
Wanting to engage in a game's potential development is well and good, and yet there is also a time and place to familiarize oneself with the lay of the land before trying to rock the boat. (That piece if advice will also serve you well in the real-world working sector.)