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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited March 25
    @noworries#8859

    On a side note, if you want to know a much smaller change that would improve gameplay, I'd love the ability to increase the size of my cursor/arrow/reticle ingame. One of the remaining graphic distortion problems you get on a 4k monitor computer is the cursor is proportionally too small compared to the size of your screen. I often lose track of where the arrow on my 4k monitor is and it takes me a moment and some mouse wiggles to find it. I noticed this issue when I temporarily had to switch computers for a bit and was surprised how much nicer the bigger cursor on the smaller computer screen felt to use.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: MarigoldsTheShredder (Rogue Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Marigolds🔪Gluestickz#2563
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
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  • lbarstad#4802 lbarstad Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    Useless change noone ever asked for, not happy about this not mention my wallet is even less happy...
  • theoneandonlyhaltheoneandonlyhal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3 Arc User
    why would you do this, a FOV of 70 is useless on many classes, and for many players unplayable. i for one think this was poorly thought out way to fix other underlying problems. this is not a first person shooter it is a 3rd person rpg, how could the devs think this would be happily accepted by anyone. PLEASE for the sake of the game get rid of this.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,097 Arc User


    FoV settings are needed by some players to not feel sick while playing the game. The feedback is that the current settings aren't a high enough range to fully combat that diziness/sickness. FoV with camera zoom combine to turn a view that is meant to be an action RPG game with a tighter camera, into an almost RTS level of distance from the character.

    Yup. Increasing the FoV so much pretty much kills the whole action game feeling of the game.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • bpstuartbpstuart Member Posts: 204 Arc User
    i seem to be able to play alright on 55 ( the old default ). I am still peeved that whatever you put it to after changing it in the patch ( i don't know if it was even 70, the FOV slider had no numbers and looked like i was peering through a poorly made porthole) gave me a migraine.

    I do want to apologize for my tone the other day though, that was the first time a videogame triggered a migraine in me, and i tend to be very cranky even after i stop the pain or reduce it to manageable.

    that being said i would respect a heads up or discussion of such changes in the future as it is not an issue of aesthetics or gameplay advantage for many of us.

    I would rather that options exist that make the game more widely accessible to different people and set ups, even if some players us it to cheese in PvE content.
    If you are so focused on managing how people can play your game that you make some of your players physically ill to assert that control, i really do have to question your priorities as a company.
    Ego etiam cupo recrari et amari diu post mortem meam
    I too wish to be recreated, and to be loved long after my death.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,177 Arc User
    edited March 25
    I personally see no correlation between FoV and action combat. Action RPGs (the genre) are all top down at a ~30° camera angle. Pretty much any arpg you pick has significantly faster combat pacing than NW and they all look like rts games while playing them.

    I acknowledge that this may not be the type of game you want it to be, but it's more a case of wanting to be closer to a 1st person rpg than wanting the game to feature action combat.

    The camera angle plays almost no role in determining what type of combat a game has, off the top of my head, I can think of the following.

    1. Blobbers - Usually first person party based, turn based rpgs.
    2. CRPGs - Usually top down with 30° camera angle, looks very similar to an RTS and usually party based. Can be either RtwP or Turn based.
    3. ARPGs - Same as CRPGs but less emphasis on story, more on game mechanics and combat and usually revolves around only a single character.

    And I could go on, there are lots of different classifications. My point being that, saying that it is an action game therefore it needs a specific view is not true.

    I am personally fine with less zoom but more fov, it would make the game playable for me. Ideally going up to 120. If possible, a dynamic zoom limitation would make a lot of sense, so the lower your fov the further you can zoom, to satisfy those who are happy with a low fov but want to zoom.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,097 Arc User

    I personally see no correlation between FoV and action combat. Action RPGs (the genre) are all top down at a ~30° camera angle. Pretty much any arpg you pick has significantly faster combat pacing than NW and they all look like rts games while playing them.



    I acknowledge that this may not be the type of game you want it to be, but it's more a case of wanting to be closer to a 1st person rpg than wanting the game to feature action combat.



    The camera angle plays almost no role in determining what type of combat a game has, off the top of my head, I can think of the following.



    1. Blobbers - Usually first person party based, turn based rpgs.

    2. CRPGs - Usually top down with 30° camera angle, looks very similar to an RTS and usually party based. Can be either RtwP or Turn based.

    3. ARPGs - Same as CRPGs but less emphasis on story, more on game mechanics and combat and usually revolves around only a single character.



    And I could go on, there are lots of different classifications. My point being that, saying that it is an action game therefore it needs a specific view is not true.



    I am personally fine with less zoom but more fov, it would make the game playable for me. Ideally going up to 120. If possible, a dynamic zoom limitation would make a lot of sense, so the lower your fov the further you can zoom, to satisfy those who are happy with a low fov but want to zoom.

    Well, Skyrim standard is set at 65 iirc, just to say.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • sundancewanderingwolfsundancewanderingwolf Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited March 25
    To noworries:

    Seriously? Give us a choice! What works for some may not work for others and vice versa. You guys over there keep taking away all our customization and choices. What about content creators making videos also? Or people taking screen shots who want to get everyone into a picture? Well... now they can't! I say BOO to this!
    "we may have taken it too far" I recall is what you said to us after destroying the rogue in Mod 15 after we all complained... why do you guys keep doing this to us?
    To run a successful business you need to find a balance between making money and keeping people happy. Since Mod 15 you've been failing miserably as a company to do that. We all hoped when Chris came along things would be better.
    Chris where are you right now when we need you? This is not good... you want to keep your players and prevent them from bailing? Stop allowing these ridiculous changes to be put into play.
    The more people you please, the more money you make! Period!
    The more people you anger enough to quit this amazing game, the more money you lose!
    Players who are happy get their friends to play, and they get their friends in their other circles too and it builds and builds. The more you make unhappy the more will leave. FIX IT! Stop breaking it!
    Post edited by sundancewanderingwolf on
  • kstubble#4883 kstubble Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    @noworries#8859

    what is the reasoning for changing the fov? and why, in the age of Disclosure, was the community not involved? Is this causing an issue with the way the game runs, lag, etc? I am curious as to the thought process behind this.

    When i am on my weekly chemo meds, i get motion sick easily. sometimes cant even play nwo as it was with a fov of 85.

    thanks
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited March 25
    1.
    patchnote said:

    The goal of this change is to reduce the pressure on players to make the game look less readable, for the benefit of being able to see more at once.

    I have never heard such a thing, since 3 and a half year i'm playing, about one player who was asked to change the FoV and/or zoom on Neverwinter PC in my guild, in my ally (which is probably nowdays if not the biggest full french ally [La Grande Hermine] in term of number of players surely very close to be the largest one...); or in the various parties external to my ally i was involved in, even at endgame. "You can change it if you want + command" was the only thing about that I ever heard when anyone asked if it was possible to have a point of vue a bit further from his own toon.

    As a sceptical guy i need some sources or at least some witnesses/victims in order to believe players (term which the patchnote employed as a generality) are "pressured/forced to change FoV" is really an issue/a thing.

    But i give you the benifice of doubt, although the patchnote statement seems falacious (and quite dishonnest) : some players may have been pressured (directly or inderectly to "perform" as other players intend them to perform) to do so. Even though it seems the wide majority of players expressing their opinion here in this topic seem to say... nope.

    2.


    [...]
    Let's try this conversation in a different direction:

    FoV settings are needed by some players to not feel sick while playing the game. The feedback is that the current settings aren't a high enough range to fully combat that diziness/sickness. FoV with camera zoom combine to turn a view that is meant to be an action RPG game with a tighter camera, into an almost RTS level of distance from the character.

    Action RPG doesn't equal to "camera right behind the character (toon's shoulders or bust or feet to head)".
    Just to say, 8 bits/16 bits era Secret of Mana or Zelda were considered action RPGs (damn, i was already a gamer back then...).

    Furthermore a FoV =100 + zoom full out is very much like where Hack&Slash subkind of RPGs (diablo as an exemple) put the camera (though it's a fixed cam angle), and H&S RPG are very much in action RPG category. In fact, personnally, i find Neverwinter to be more in the H&S category than in the classical RPG one as you like to make us fight hords of trash mobs (can't wait for the next hellpit solo nonsense in a MMORPG...).

    The paradigm about the position of the camera for an action RPG is only a matter of how you as dev you want to design your game specifically, not a "consensus of the genre" (and even consensus can be broken to innovate...).

    Say us "that the way we want our game to be designed", do not take the action RPG genre as an argument.

    I agree that FoV>120 + zoom out max is starting to be really an extreme camera, both for the quite abnormal huge field of vision (especially as it doesn't provide much more "info" for the player compared to FoV 80-90 in 99% of the situations, even for a tank); and also extreme on how the game looks like.
    For me it doesn't look great on my screen, nor on youtube or streaming channels, and it's probably some kind of a visual issue when you are finally starting to timidly promote your game through the content creators program...

    Personnally i dislike the deformation/distortion of the landscape/environnement induced by the fisheye vision when above a FoV>90 + zoom out, but i don't mind if someone is using a more extreme value.

    3.

    What if we increase the FoV ranges more, but at the same time bring the maximum camera zoom closer to the player? This should allow players the FoV flexibility they need, while retaining the view closer to the character as the game was designed around. Thoughts on this approach?

    I play zoom out max at 80 FoV.

    It's the sweet spot for me to be aware enough about my surroundings when i'm playing my fighter tank (I need to see if i'm going to get hit in the back, especially because not all the parties are full mic equiped hence can't warn the tank if anything is close to hit his back, especially on some instances where you devs liked to put mobs spawning in the back or all around the main fight, or if my heels are on the edge of an AoE [and would dislike being forced to angle the cam to look at the crown of my head to get this same information with a lower FoV or have to learn by heart when and where everything happens to avoid risking death as if i was in a spatial scrolling shoot'em up dodging bullets or preemptively target the OVNIs {edit : english is UFOs xD} spawns at the right [or the up] of my screen... ]).

    It's also my sweetspot for my cleric to manage careful positionning and easier way to keep an eye on everyone compared to 55 FoV, especially when it comes to aim accurately with the healing AoEs and precisely see where it would land on the party (at 50 FoV zoom-in max it's quite hard for me to not miss a target a bit afar [let's say 50+ in game foot] with a healing bastion even on a flat ground... and i'm not even speaking about aiming to catch as much players as possible on a rocky/rough/slope ground... ).

    I don't mind playing at a lower FoV/close zoom with my rogue, if i can forget the motion/simulation sickness.

    Changing the FoV will impact more the tanks and the healers, who are already much rarer than dps (far from 1:3 ratio at 24k+ IL) and a bit more difficult to play correctly. The situation with the covid19 tends to ameliorate temporarly the availability of those archetypes (queues are shorter to trigger for a lone dps since last week as i experienced), but honnestly i don't want to come back to 2 months after mod16 where a lone dps would wait more than 30 min for a REDQ to start...

    I will try the new FoV70/Zoom when i will make my next demorecord/demoplay shortvid, as i will be forced to change the FoV in the demoplay tool to render something appealing my eyes, and will be sad to not be able to come back to FoV80... It may by another brick to the wall which prevents me gradually to come on the game. Or not. I guess i would have to try and see...
    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 894 Arc User

    @noworries#8859

    On a side note, if you want to know a much smaller change that would improve gameplay, I'd love the ability to increase the size of my cursor/arrow/reticle ingame. One of the remaining graphic distortion problems you get on a 4k monitor computer is the cursor is proportionally too small compared to the size of your screen. I often lose track of where the arrow on my 4k monitor is and it takes me a moment and some mouse wiggles to find it. I noticed this issue when I temporarily had to switch computers for a bit and was surprised how much nicer the bigger cursor on the smaller computer screen felt to use.

    Seriously? Give us a choice! What works for some may not work for others and vice versa. You guys over there keep taking away all our customization and choices. What about content creators making videos also? Or people taking screen shots who want to get everyone into a picture? Well... now they can't! I say BOO to this!
    "we may have taken it too far" I recall is what you said to us after destroying the rogue in Mod 15 after we all complained... why do you guys keep doing this to us?
    To run a successful business you need to find a balance between making money and keeping people happy. Since Mod 15 you've been failing miserably as a company to do that. We all hoped when Chris came along things would be better.
    Chris where are you right now when we need you? This is not good... you want to keep your players and prevent them from bailing? Stop allowing these ridiculous changes to be put into play.
    The more people you please, the more money you make! Period!
    The more people you anger enough to quit this amazing game, the more money you lose!
    Players who are happy get their friends to play, and they get their friends in their other circles too and it builds and builds. The more you make unhappy the more will leave. FIX IT! Stop breaking it!
    Why did you quote my post? Your writing below it seems unrelated.

    Only thing that comes to mind is you think that was my only post in this thread and think its stupid or something. I already weighed in on the thread topic in a different post.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: MarigoldsTheShredder (Rogue Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Marigolds🔪Gluestickz#2563
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Vermilion
    Platform: PC
  • sundancewanderingwolfsundancewanderingwolf Member Posts: 74 Arc User
    @trgluestickz oh, I'm sorry, I thought I was replying to what noworries said, not to what you said. Sorry you felt the need to attack. I'm not good with forums, thank you for teaching me with kindness.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    edited March 25

    @noworries#8859

    what is the reasoning for changing the fov? and why, in the age of Disclosure, was the community not involved? Is this causing an issue with the way the game runs, lag, etc? I am curious as to the thought process behind this.

    When i am on my weekly chemo meds, i get motion sick easily. sometimes cant even play nwo as it was with a fov of 85.

    thanks

    The reason made no sense to me either but to quote them, "The goal of this change is to reduce the pressure on players to make the game look less readable..." There is nothing to read. The text boxes are on the 2D overlay HUD user interface and have nothing to do with the 3D environment. Their explanation of this move falls flat. I have my suspicions behind their reasons, but I won't second guess them. When I read they were dropping the FOV, I thought 90 maybe. Nope 70 degrees maximum. This tells me Cryptic is working on cheapo 4:3 monitors and have no clue what we are even talking about.

    Lower FoVs shouldn't be used for several reasons:
    • It feels unnatural.
    • It limits what a player can see.
    • It is unrealistic.
    • It can cause motion sickness (the most important reason).
    nick-siggy.gif
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 281 Arc User

    @noworries#8859

    what is the reasoning for changing the fov? and why, in the age of Disclosure, was the community not involved? Is this causing an issue with the way the game runs, lag, etc? I am curious as to the thought process behind this.

    When i am on my weekly chemo meds, i get motion sick easily. sometimes cant even play nwo as it was with a fov of 85.

    thanks

    The reason made no sense to me either but to quote them, "The goal of this change is to reduce the pressure on players to make the game look less readable..." There is nothing to read. The text boxes are on the 2D overlay HUD user interface and have nothing to do with the 3D environment. Their explanation of this move falls flat. I have my suspicions behind their reasons, but I won't second guess them. When I read they were dropping the FOV, I thought 90 maybe. Nope 70 degrees maximum. This tells me Cryptic is working on cheapo 4:3 monitors and have no clue what we are even talking about.

    Lower FoVs shouldn't be used for several reasons:
    • It feels unnatural.
    • It limits what a player can see.
    • It is unrealistic.
    • It can cause motion sickness (the most important reason).
    Well, given that this is a first person perspective game, I'd say that the large FoV, zoomed out, is unnatural, and unrealistic.

    The obvious reason that springs to mind on why Cryptic might do this, is to try and ensure a player experience that more closely matches the character experience. That would make a lot of sense as it's a far more immersive experience. On the opposite side, it starts to feel more like a strategy-type game as you zoom out and increase FoV.

    There are many things I don't like about ToMM, though, and ToMM, by design, screams out (demands, actually) a massive player view well beyond what your character view would be. That unfortunate ToMM design experiment is a real problem with this.

    The other problem, of course, if the number of people playing the game that can't medically deal with a "tight character view".
    That's a real problem with forcing a more immersive perspective, and an important issue to sort out.

    I guess it's one thing to come to Neverwinter and discover that you medically can't deal with it, and another thing for the game to change itself into something you can't deal with, after you're well established.
  • matthiasthehun76matthiasthehun76 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,178 Arc User
    @noworries#8859

    For God's sake don't touch things, they have been working for people, so why "fix" it.

    I do understand, it provides a small amount of advantage in some areas, but i would rather see you Devs fix those advantages (cover Halaster or whatever), but a "fix" to a few instances will ruin the game for many in all of the game.

    I am for one who can not bare to play with the fish eye look, but i love to be able to zoom out and as some have already pointed out, we don't want an ESO like twisted camera angle.

    It is already bad after Mod16, we have lost so many good souls, i don't want to see masses of people leaving just cause they get sick playing the game.

    Personally, i think there are much more important bugs to work on, this is a waste of your Dev time and a possible change can only do harm. If this goes live no good will come out of it.
    The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
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  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited March 26

    @trgluestickz oh, I'm sorry, I thought I was replying to what noworries said, not to what you said. Sorry you felt the need to attack. I'm not good with forums, thank you for teaching me with kindness.

    Its not an attack, I was asking what was going on there since it didn't make sense to quote it. It made it seem like you were either irritated with my post or there was some other reason for it I was missing. Ty for clarifying.
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: MarigoldsTheShredder (Rogue Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Marigolds🔪Gluestickz#2563
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Vermilion
    Platform: PC
  • tassedethe13tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 755 Arc User
This discussion has been closed.