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CDP Topic: PvP

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  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    Preamble

    I'm a bit late on the CDP schedule, sorry about that, it took me a very long time to sort out my ideas and developping them and format.... So i won't answer if any discussion/argument emerge from my post.
    I post my ideas just as a note/opinion.

    Let's dive anyway (I go with my own format).



    If you like reading, "my life/my PoV" stories, context around my ideas/mindset, big wall of text in the "spoilers" :
    I'm a player who is really much more interested and driven by PvE content (and stories / RP), which doesn't mean i can't acknowledge PvP can be a fun part of a MMORPG. As a matter of fact, on NWO i did try some PvP queues, some stronghold sieges, and time to time tried to kill someone or got killed by someone in Icewindale :P

    My perspective is always how anything can be helpful for the promotion of group/collective gatherings-actions-reactions, be it something kind of a spontaneous derivation (DR as an exemple), organized and planned initiatives (this PvP tournament for exemple https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1254228/tournament-of-the-champions-pvp-tournament-update-2-0 ) or automated (matchmaking), or anything in-between.
    It's for me the very nature of a MMORPG : what, why and how players do together (be it collaboratively or as "opponents").

    In my opinion, one of the most important part of a successful MMORPG is when players, as a community, are bonding, interacting, and playing together (when I play chess, i don't really play against someone, i mostly play with someone, "talking" mind to mind over a board).


    From my point of view, PvP splits in 2 categories (both not mutually excluding the other one nor being complete opposite ^^) :
    - "competitive" PvP (ranking, leaderboard, assert dominance, get the pride to climb and be stronger/smarter than others, push back your limits, explodsion of joy when you beat someone really really strong or who really challenged you etc). = let's win (most of the "classic" PvPists)
    - "friendly" PvP (for fun, not really caring much about your own performances or feeling the need to compare to the ones of another). = let's play

    Though i agree class balance is important, I wont speak nor think about that from a 1-player point of view , especially as I see this as an extremely narrowed eye and a huge bias when PvP is conceptualized as a fight group vs group with other objectives beside killing your opponents : 1vs1 doesn't really make any sense for me unless both the players are the same class (and i'm very ok with the idea of rock paper cisor lezard spock between classes).
    I think about balance from the minimum 5vs5 perspective in NWO.

    1. Open world PvP / PvP in the wild

    • The general idea : include some limited areas where PvP is possible/allowed within the normal "PvE" open world, but without interfering with PvE quests.
    • The general goal : make a showcase for PvP and pique PvE player's curiosity about PvP.
    • The already existing exemple : Icewindale regions
    • Details (wall of text with disgressions):
      Even though we can say Neverwinter is mostly a PvE game (as most of D&D video games), not all the PvE players are against some PvP action time to time.

      Personnally, I can even enjoy being ambushed during a PvE quests by a PvP adept (or group) when the game is conceptualized as "no/very few PvP restriction" (old school MMORPG gamer here, i spent some time back in my youth on Ultima Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EvE Online, Age of Conan...).
      But i can also understand the problems a PvE player can have with PK/freePK/gank when he is just here to chill : nowdays MMORPGs are made more casual friendly, and the life for PvE players is easier, cities are too safe, fast travel/roads are too easy to walk, no stress no pressure no risk while travelling, no surprise, and no exciting adrenaline rush too.

      You can also keep in mind i was a player and a DM on a Neverwinter Nights module back in 2003-2004, and later also the same on french Dofus between 2004-2008. A DM was able to jump in the skin of any existing/wandering Non Playing Characters (NPC) in the open world and incarnate it, speak with the NPC's virtual mouth, move as the NPC, use any spell/attack/feat available on this NPC (or even modify the preset spells), etc, and so interact with the Playing Character (PC), surprise them, make a boss fight much more unpredictible and difficult because the boss was DM handled rather than AI, start a RP quest out of the scripted things, etc.
      In fact more generally I was animating the AI world and making the NPCs ponctually more alive.

      In my deepest utopic opinion, PvP and PvE have no reason to be considered as 2 complete different separated things. From a role playing perspective, they can be considered as the same : NPCs and PCs live in the same world and each kind is, at the end, a virtual object.

      As a consequence, i can consider getting caught in a PvP fight to be the exact same thing as the fight against the Competing Adventure Party in the Cragmire Crypts !

      Why PvP should be restricted to PvP instances only ? But also why PvP shouldn't obviously be all over the place ?

      There are some permeable and porous layers/borders between PvP extremist players and PvE extremist players. It's not black and white, but tons of different grey variations from the darkest to the clearest.

      PvP population amount on NWO had immensly droped over the year, for many different reasons (balance, rewards, toxicity, etc) to the point I can hardly find any recent youtube PvP content created. On the contrary PvE population amount is still relatively healthy.

      In order to solve the problem of how many players are engaged in PvP and entice more to try, I think building bridges between the PvP country and the PvE country is really important. Each country would still have is own territory, but you would be able to walk freely from one to another if you want to. Visiting foreign lands and cultures is among the greatest personnal enrichment after all ;).

      That was, i think, what Icewindale open world PvP was partly intended to do.

      If I take my personnal, back when i started to play NWO (end of 2016), I was only playing PvE with not even the knowledge that PvP was an exisiting thing in the game.
      It took me 2 month to realize there was some PvP actions. It was when I started the Icewindale campaign and, while crossing a bridge over a basin, I saw a frenzied crazy big group pvp fight underneath.
      On an impulse, i jumped-smokebomb in to help my faction. I got killed super quickly but came back and came back over and over during ~10 minutes, until the end of the local event, trying to figure out how I could survive the longest and disturb the most our opponents. It was very, very, very fun.

      But, if Icewindale PvP was all over the map, and if I would have get killed over and over trying to do my PvE quests, it would have made me really mad (but ok, as a non-conventionnal player, I would probably have tried to retaliate, or gather as much volounteers with big muscles as I can to dispatch the threat :P).

      Make openworld PvP possible as a willingly choice. Plant some PvP areas (PvP quests/objectives/hourly events) in the open close to, or around of, but out of the PvE normal quest paths.
      Let people dive in, get out or spectate if they want ;)
    • risks/concerns : Quite a big work (especially as i think at least a small open PvP area should be included in every new big module). How the design can stand the test of time (unfortunately not so the case of IWD open PvP) ? Rewards ?

    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    2. both PvE and PvP for campaign progression

    (derivation from my point 1. but can perhaps be considered alone too)
    (campaign working with a weekly cap model are probably best fit for that)
    • The general idea : PvP as an alternative to progress in the campaigns. "alternative" word is important : not mandatory, not interfering with PvE, just another way to complete a campaign. What about some Sybella legacy quests involving PvP ? (more about that in the spoiler)
    • The general goal : Allow players who are fond of PvP to be more full-time PvP without loosing all progression in campaigns. Allow PvE players to view PvP not as a complete waste of time but as an option to complete a campaign, and perhaps become part-timer PvP.
    • Details (wall of text with disgressions):
      Most of the recent campaigns work with a weekly currency cap in order to slow down a bit players and make them engaged in the campaign for a longer time : Chult-Soshenstar, Chult-Omu, Ravenloft, Avernus (I exclude Acquisition Inc because it's in my opion a leveling campaign).
      I like this campaign model as it is much more flexible for casual players compared to the daily grind and exhaustion Storm King Thunder or Cloaked Ascendency can be.

      I don't really enjoy the concrete wall we have between PvP and PvE in NWO and would be happier with a more blurry and evanescent "limit" between both sides.

      Why not make PvP an option to earn some of the currency needed for campaigns weekly cap (other than the PvP own campain) ?

      Designed as an alternative, it would probably help growing the interest of players about PvP while not forcing them into it. A player would be able to choose between PvE and PvP to do a campaign (or a bit of both). Obviously, would work better if a little PvP part come with each new module (see point 1.)
      Trying to calibrate PvP earnings for a campaign so it's can be as long as pure solo PvE if you always win in PvP, and only a tiny bit slower if you always loose : win or loose you still get some of the amount of the weekly campaign cap (as long as you have really participated, not sure how to measure participation compared to someone/nearly everyone afking), this way frustration would be manageable when loosing, especially as even if you tagged in PvP for PvP, you are still achieving a side-goal, and it may also avoid "arranged PvP" to make a comeback as there is not a huge difference for the campaign between winning or loosing, so no reason to let others win (and at the same time, if you are able to arrange PvP, you are also able to arrange a party to farm the PvE part of the campaign really quickier than soloing...).

      Sybella legacy quests around PvP ?
      This week domination quest allow you to earn Ravenloft currencies. Next week it's Chult. Next week it's Storm King Thunder. Etc.
      The design of this quest should may include multiple ways to complete it, so you can have plenty of various objectives allowing to focus on one or two while also making nearly useless for players to arrange the PvP in the way to alllow everyone to get the quest done (as dev, you may not want to reproduce the arranged Stronghold Siege farming for rAD or the arranged Gauntlegrim farming for the guild mimic).

      Not deeply thoughtful exemples => quest is completed if any of these conditions is fulfilled :
      - your team won the domination by a margin inferior to 500 points with more than X kills done in total during the fight (sum of the 2 teams) and every player have at least killed/assist or got killed Y times
      - you killed X times and have a strictly positive K/D ratio
      - you assisted X times and have a positive or nul K/D ratio
      - you killed each one of your oponents at least once
      - you killed (assisted killing?) the K/D leader on the endchart at least once (maybe design a graphic/visual mark on the K/D leader after 5 minutes to help recognize him ?)
      - you conquered/help conquered X times nodes
      - you held the same node for your team during X consecutive minutes
      - you captured a node held X-1 consecutive minutes by the ennemy team (maybe design a visual/graphic alert after X-1 min has passed holding the same node ?)
      - you killed (assist?) at least 2 ennemies and then survived X consecutive minutes
      - you killed (assist?) one ennemy who had killed 2 of your allies and then survived X-1 consecutive minutes (maybe design a graphic/visual mark on the K/D leader after 5 minutes to help recognize him ?).

      The very goal is to make people enjoying PvP and to help dealing with the "i got destroyed" frustration if you were still able to fulfill a side-goal that help you outside the PvP, getting a reward even after loosing the match. Honestly I think it would really help people trying PvP, so why not making this reward as easy to get as the one you win by bashing 100 monsters in Sharandar ?

    • risks/concerns : arranged PvP farming
    I had a third point, but I think it's enough walls of text for someone who was late on phase 1 :P
    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • krumple01krumple01 Member Posts: 754 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Top 3

    1. Better scoring system.

    2. Remove kick from party feature.

    3. Do not allow ANY PvE gear in PvP.
  • ashbury#6333 ashbury Member Posts: 61 Arc User
    My top 3 would be:

    1. Better rewards per match and milestone rewards.

    2. Campaign progression by playing PvP.

    3. Some type of tier system implemented to have players fight others similar to their level/skill.
  • fluffy6977fluffy6977 Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    Top 3
    1. Equalize players - No one is going to start PVPing just to get stomped over and over.
    2. Ranked/unranked queues - I don't think this is going to split the queue population, as is those of us who might play unranked instead just don't play at all. Goes back to just getting stomped over and over.
    3. Add more variety - maps, modes etc. Can wait a bit for queue population to grow, but I know if I'm not having a good night in one game mode I usually swap to another. Can't do that in NWO.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,338 Arc User
    1. Remove kicking from the game completely. All it causes is grief between players. Just put in a timer for players that don't move and remove them if they don't within a certain time.
    2. Put better and more rewards into PVP. The entire game needs better rewards especially AD sources, but PVP suffers from it more
    3. Remove solo queue and replace it with better algorithms for grouping.
  • froger#9967 froger Member Posts: 413 Arc User
    My top 3 in no particular order.

    Ranking system for players to enable better queue matching (for those not queuing as a group). Obviously, this would require a lot of players playing to work. I believe this will solve the kicking issue as players will be similarly matched. It will solve the issue of players getting destroyed when they try PVP. A lot of people want the kicking system gone. I get it, it sucks to be kicked when you are trying and told to ‘git gud’. To me this stems from players not being matched properly. As they said in the stream you want to kick the doofus dancing at the campfire.

    Dedicated paragon path for PVP for each class. You need to switch to PVP loadout to queue PVP and stay in that loadout while queued. PVP powers would have no effect in PVE and vise versa. I imagine this would be a lot of work, but it would hopefully stop PVE nerfs that stem form PVP.

    I like the idea of equalized PVP players BUT do not do this for all aspect of PVP. Just like PVE I want to get stronger and progress in PVP.

    Did anyone mention they want old Gauntyl Grym back?
    Froger - Barbie Girl in a Barbie World - Main in spirit only - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Jade - Cleric - Main - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Magnus - Fighter - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
    Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone

    Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
  • leadsaidleadsaid Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    My top 3:

    1 - separate PVE and PVP gear entirely
    2 - dedicated PVP paragon
    3 - Put current PVP into temporary quasi-maintenance mode (do above and resolve issues only) and start design/work on a PVP mode that PVE players might be encouraged to enjoy that also fits in with the world narrative.

    Example:



    I will go light on details because I believe the Devs can figure this out best

    Operating Theory: A portion of PVE players don't PVP because:
    • Rewards aren't there for their account (my personal reason)
    • Ganking and sucking hard ruins their character's power fantasy (I also feel this way)
    • There is no "D&D nature" to what they are doing in PVP
    • There is no/little FR specific story hook for what they are doing in PVP
    Solution:

    Create a new upgradeable Companion/Mount style system for PVP soldiers
    Soldiers have progression and powers like classes and are based on a type 'class' (ranged, heavy melee, tanky melee, sneaky git, arcane, divine etc.)
    Similar to the lost Leadership fantasy, players act as mercenary captains
    Players pledge their mercenary company to different FR factions (Harpers, Zhentarim, Xanathar, Many-Arrows etc..)
    You build rep with these factions by engaging in PVP battles
    Rep unlocks things like new faction specific soldiers to hire and build (Gnolls, Ogres, Orcs for Zhents, cute fluffy things for Harpers)
    Battles are in the zones and probably would run continuously like Heroic Encounters with longer timers
    These battles are meaningful within the Zone narrative
    Zone is affected by most recent loss/win

    One of the ability slots for your soldier is a power you get from the toon you're logged in as who is effectively your commander (conceptually similar to Heroes of Might and Magic). You can select from a few options and the available options are based on your class. This power allows your PVE toon's power and presence to leak into the field a little bit. The overall effect should be noticeable but not dramatic. Or long cooldown - whatever - you guys know best.

    In addition to your PVP soldier, you're also levelling your toon's Leadership skill. This Leadership skill, amongst all of the possibilities, gives your soldier a shout/aura ability that buffs the soldiers around him. The purpose of this is to let veteran PVP players buff not so veteran PVP players to help even the playing field (what if the other team has no veterans - oh oh slaughter! Maybe that's fun I dunno - again these are system design details for the experts)


    Now, in terms of gameplay this is actually very similar to today's PVP - the abilities for these soldiers have an obvious heritage to the abilities of the closest matching class. I'd prefer larger team sizes for narrative reasons but you could even do something with the current team sizes. Nevertheless, I would lean towards a rock paper scissors dynamic a little more here though - so, say, your best soldier is a Many Arrows Ogre - that's great if you get into melee but your attacks are slow and you don't move the fastest, vs our little goblin sharpshooter who zips around, pinpricks and discomfits from afar but is going to be squished in melee. The idea with this rock paper scissoring being to add strategy, to encourage purchasing and upgrading a wide variety of soldiers for tactical flexibility - so the smart player would deploy your ogre/barbarian(s) AFTER you break through the walls.

    Pros:

    Should address the PVE limiting factors above (It's not "me" I don't care that you teamganked my goblin dude - I was being an annoying sh*t anyways and deserved it)
    Provides a new horizontal advancement scheme for PVE toons
    Provides considerable hooks for monetization and customization
    Provides considerable hooks for new PVE activities (You've done a lot for the {Zhents} here's a quest)
    Provides new rewards (new soldiers, customizations, gear, titles...)
    Encourages the development of alts for their unique commander abilities
    Brings back Leadership. How I miss you so.
    Bored of Time Stop / Icy Terrain all day? (*actual thing) - drop in and smash face with your barbarian tribesman while still directly growing your Wizard a bit (vs that barbarian alt)

    Cons:

    This sure looks like an entire Mod worth of work if not more
    For PVP players who PVP to show off their hard PVE work this does very little
    If the abilities diverge too far from a related class you will upset PVP players who PVP to master their class
    There will be some players I'm sure who will find the idea of not actually playing their PVE toon at all times disconcerting
    Balancing could become a clusterfk of astronomical proportions - so I propose leaving balance at the door and making losing more amusing then costly.


    Closing notes:

    Guilds should have a role to play here as well, of course.
    The fundamental driver for people to play this should be its FUN. Solve that and the details cease to matter that much.
    I think the story team is being painted into an increasingly smaller narrative corner because the PCs are getting super powerful. Yet consistently the most treasured play experience for D&D players is the lower levels. This offers a potential opportunity to place stories in that space without being too awkward about it.
    There's plenty more to add here - customizable banners, trophies like skulls for that ogre's belt, a fortress akin to the workshop for managing your company and so on.
    Potentially this can justify bringing PVE resourcing into the PVP space
    Some PVE players will still be averse to PVP with this sytem. Can't gimp their progression - so allow them to advance Rep through daily quests and get some portion of unlocks. But you can only advance Leadership by fighting, and its rewards only affect PVP.


    Post edited by leadsaid on
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Mhhh, sorry again, but I can't prevent my brain from having a lot of ideas (bad or good xD), so I post again outside the normal phase... I wasn't thinking about balance, but this morning i get up with something in the head...

    3. Dynamic balance

    • The general idea : make it so time to time (each week thursday at 12h ? each season ?) a variable do an adjustement on player's stats for PvP depending on their class, by analyzing the top of the PvP ladder (or a fraction of the whole ladder, like the top 10% of it, or the whole ladder, or the players with more than 30 PvP matches, whatever)
    • The general goal : global balance, partly avoid discret adjustments/nerf (encounters, equipments, etc), doesn't affect PvE, no real need to separate spells/equipments between PvE and PvP, make PvP more challenging for the "top tier class", give a chance to the "low tier class", can maybe compensate a bit the "new module/new stuff/new changes" effect by immediately (next week/nex season) apply a general auto nerf on any class getting suddenly overpowered in PvP because of something new profiting to the class much more than other classes or an auto buff for classes who got negatively impacted
    • Details :
      Ok, so i get through the PvP ladder today. What can we say about it ?

      (forgive me, and please don't forget what I take as metric is probably hugely biased because of the tiny quantity of players currently in the ladder... it would work better if the total of PvP player was 10 times more important than what i can see in the 8 pages of the ladder... it's just to take an exemple to illustrate my idea)


      I looked at the top 40.
      If PvP was balanced, we should see around 5 representants of each class in this top, each class being 12.5% of the top40 in the ladder.

      Today, is W0 (week 0). No variable of adjustement is applied. How the ladder is composed if we check the number of toon of each class ?
      SW = 5% of the top40 (but the top1)
      DC = 12.5% of the top40
      CW = 22.5% of the top 40
      GF = 15% of the top 40
      TR = 25% of the top 40
      GWF = 5% of the top 40
      HR = 7.5% of the top 40
      OP = 7.5% of the top 40

      So some classes are over represented, other are under represented in the top40 ladder, which tells us that at high level something may be wrong with the balance.



      Next week is Week1, thursday at 12h : the game now apply a variable of adjustment on every player in PvP, based on what was the ladder at W0 (W n-1).

      To stay simple, let's say it's a bonus/malus calculated with the deviation from the intended "balanced situation 5 of one class in top40" (but if it's too huge, you can divided it, or if not precise enough you can consider some ponderation, for exemple a N°1=40, n°40=1 and calculate the weight of each class in the top40, each class should then be at 102.5/820 and take the deviation from that to calculate the adjustment for a class, or whatever. It's just an exemple for the idea)

      PvP this week1 will be played with :
      SW all stats +7.5% (12.5% intended representation-5% representation during week0)
      DC all stats +0%
      CW all stat -10% (12.5% intended representation-22.5% representation during week0)
      GF all stats -2.5%
      TR all stats -12.5%
      GWF all stats +7.5%
      HR all stats +5%
      OP all stats +5%

      At the end of the week1, maybe the top 40 would then not be exactly the same, and the variable of adjustment change accordingly for week2, and so on. "Week n" look at the top40 of "week n-1" and calculate an adjustment for the week to balance the PvP.

      Over a long period of time, we should maybe tend to a better representation of each class in PvP
    • risks/concerns : paragon ? + a ton of other things (it's a crazy idea xD) and i can already see everyone rising a shield :P
    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    My top 3 would be:
    1. Better rewards per match and milestone rewards.
    2. Campaign progression by playing PvP.
    3. Some type of tier system implemented to have players fight others similar to their level/skill.

    I think the most popular PvP EVENT was the one where it forced only solo queues; PvP should also feature once you enter a PvP queue, you can't also change your gear until you exit.

    I think the biggest obstable faced by PvP, is solely that people don't like going to a match, where they are faced by premade teams of far Superior Item Level, solely just to get slaughtered where they have no HOPE. PvP has also never explored rewarding more Points per Kill, Captured/Defended Point, or other possibilities I'll explore below for a lower Item Level Team. :o

    Pre-made queues re-designed for members of same Alliance!
    ╘ But they'd have to offer 10v10, in addition to the already existing 20v20!

    Domination & Gauntlgrym for SOLO queue standards.

    One Choice for better balance to SOLO queues
    Team 1
    Highest Item Lever Player -- Team 2 Second Highest Item Level Player
    Third Highest Item Level Player -- Team 2 Forth Highest Item Level Player
    Sixth Highest Item Level Player -- Team 2 Fifth Highest Item Level Player
    Ninth Highest Item Level Player -- Team 2 Seventh Highest Item Level Player
    Tenth Highest Item Level Player -- Team 2 Eights Highest Item Lever Player

    Doing this would encourage more balanced teams, and no person in PvP should expect a Win/Loss Ratio that 'greatly' exceeds 59-70%! When you in fact see that it's like Giants, stepping on a Puppy! B)
    1. Individual Leaderboards focus on Kills (2/3rds) totals & averages; then Captured or Defended Points, Lastly Win/Loss.
      ╘ show the pure ability to focus Willpower to overcome any and all foes, regardless if on winning or loosing side.
      ╘ the highest ranked players in Leaderboards have highest averages out to several decimal places.
    2. Team Support Leaderboard (ii) focus on gains for TEAM, shown below, with Kills as a small portion.
    Now THREE suggestions to Further help offset team Item Level differences:
    1. TOTAL ITEM LEVEL of each TEAM announced at the START OF MATCH;
    ╘ present additional methods for Teams of different Item Levels to possibly do an UPSET Victory.
    ╘ this may include awarding slightly more points for captured or defended points (above) or opportunities 3.
    2. Levels of Item Level exceeds threshold, presents catch up opportunities;
    Examples:
    Within 1499 Item Level No extra conditions!
    From 1500-3749 Item Level - A few Extra Healing Wards for the Lower Item Level Team to spawn!
    ╘ how many or how often depends on the Item Level Difference.
    3. 3750-????? Item Level - Spawn Capture FLAGS!
    (a) Opposing Team NOT see spawn (random) locations, but if picked up are FLAGGED, so enemy knows to focus.
    (b) Player who captures FLAG can return to a POSITION they currently HOLD for BONUS marks.
    (c) Marks granted on RETURN of FLAG scale proportional to the TEAMS difference in Item-Level.

    I really like the Capture the FLAG idea though as points opportunities to catch up, and could possibly also include slightly more Points for Points Captured or Defended based on Item Lever difference of teams.

    Why 'some' or perhaps several idea's like this could make PvP more attractive again:
    (i) It mean higher gear score players be a bit more challenged, yet what challenge is there beating up those who far lower Item Level?
    (ii) Two distinct opportunities in Leaderboards, one that focuses on solo play: Focus mostly on Kills, then Captured or Defended points, and lastly Win/Loss. The second Leaderboard, has a larger focus on how you supported the Team: Captured Points, Defended Points, possibly Flags Returned, Win/Loss, and Lastly your Kills. Both show totals & averages, again with the majority of rankings using your Averages out to several Decimal Places.

    Now I'll get some who laugh, yet consider the alternative, we'll continue to see PvP isn't played by +95% of the player base. :'(

    So consider a few or perhaps several of these; and maybe add a few new maps, so MORE TRY and play it. :+1::+1:
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • kir4me8604#8436 kir4me8604 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    I only have One Top 3.......

    Separate PVP from PVE

    With the current state of the game, I heard a realistic resolve that should work from @leadsaid ....... PVP paragon path. PVP boons, NEW PVP only powers, artifacts, etc that are separate from PVE powers, PVP enchantments, etc. PVP should have its own.

    Look at those games that have done it and those that are still struggling to find balance......

    Warframe - Separated PVE/PVP, much better game now

    Destiny 2 - Integrated PVE/PVP, they struggle with constant gun nerfs, adjusting PVE Supers and Abilities in the name of BALANCE

    Black Desert Online - Integrated PVE/PVP, they struggle with implementing PVE content because of their heavy PVP driven systems.

    World of Warcraft - Separated PVE/PVP, you have to make that choice in the beginning of the game.

    Tera - Separated PVE/PVP Servers, not the best but it was efficient


    Integrated PVE/PVP worlds struggles......




  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,031 Arc User
    1) Make PVP relevant for PvE players by implementing a boon that works in PvE

    2) Separate the balance of PvP and PvE - every power should have a different thing it does in both envis.

    3) Scaling for the lower tier players to some level so it's not one newbie max level guy vs the rest being maxed out endgame players.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,335 Arc User

    Top 3 :

    1)Quality - Fix paladin sigil , decrease healing , fix shadowclad (because its overpowered asf) , fix the stun from Clingy Leather Coat ,1 healer per team and also i would like to see tenacity back to the game but it could need a lot of work to introduce it back again

    2)Remove solo q completely - for more informations check the post by @gweddry on page 2 and @ninefingers222 on page 1

    3)Add more rewards to pvp - @trgluestickz page 3 and @gweddry page 2

    Also i would like to say ( because i saw many posts from non-pvp players about that) that introducing more pvp maps will not increase the population of pvp as we already saw with the release of stardock arena

    it's not just introducing more maps. more maps like they have now wouldn't change anything. the maps are all small crowded and easily controlled. they need bigger maps that cannot be easily spawn camped. and that provide for entertaining strategy instead of meet in the middle mosh.


  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,335 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    I only have One Top 3.......

    Separate PVP from PVE

    With the current state of the game, I heard a realistic resolve that should work from @leadsaid ....... PVP paragon path. PVP boons, NEW PVP only powers, artifacts, etc that are separate from PVE powers, PVP enchantments, etc. PVP should have its own.

    Look at those games that have done it and those that are still struggling to find balance......

    Warframe - Separated PVE/PVP, much better game now

    Destiny 2 - Integrated PVE/PVP, they struggle with constant gun nerfs, adjusting PVE Supers and Abilities in the name of BALANCE

    Black Desert Online - Integrated PVE/PVP, they struggle with implementing PVE content because of their heavy PVP driven systems.

    World of Warcraft - Separated PVE/PVP, you have to make that choice in the beginning of the game.

    Tera - Separated PVE/PVP Servers, not the best but it was efficient


    Integrated PVE/PVP worlds struggles......




    destiny has integrated but at least they have taken leveling out of the equation. everything is equalized. I actually like destiny's pvp. and they have iron banner with level enabled. imo it does work for them. but I am not so sure it would work here. shooters are a different animal than a game like this. the skill trees and stats and things also have a much lesser impact there.
    Post edited by thefiresidecat on


  • kir4me8604#8436 kir4me8604 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    Truly, I just fear the nerfs and changes made to PVE powers, artifacts, abilites, feats, etc that are coming as a result of how it PVP currently is. A new map, a new season, queue changes even new rewards does not address PVP problems.

    The Paladin Sigil is a very useful artifact in PVE. Reducing the healing for PVP purposes will render this artifact useless in PVE.

    I watched the PVP stream and it was said that they can change the functionality of powers and artifacts so that they have a different effect in PVP and PVE. If this was so, then why did the Wizard encounter power Shield get reduced to a horrible "shield equal to 30% of your maximum hitpoints"? We are not tanks. We do not sit on 700K hitpoints. I saw this change and smh. All the new wizards that do not have a Barkshield could used Shield to help absorb damage in dungeons, levels, mobs etc. now will have to remain squishy because of how this power was played in PVP. The wizard's encounter power Shield is an ineffective encounter power now in PVE. The wizard daze, stun powers have been reduced or mitigated so they do little to no damage.

    I really want to post the reality of the wizard class in this post but just know this class is not a mage class. Can it do high damage, (with % based damage gear) Yes. Is it a mage class with powerful spells, unique abilites, and fun mechanics? No.

    4 At-Wills
    only 1 (Ray of Frost) is useful

    10 Encounters
    only 3 (Ray of Enfeeblement, Disintegrate, and Imprisonment) are useful

    5 Dailies
    only 1 (Arcane Empowerment) is useful

    8 Class Features
    only 1 (Storm Spell) is useful

    10 Feats
    only 1 (Spell Twisting) is useful

    So out of 37 choices, I know for sure these 7 will be at some point and time in a wizard's build. This is not a wizard.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 858 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    I only have One Top 3.......

    Separate PVP from PVE

    With the current state of the game, I heard a realistic resolve that should work from @leadsaid ....... PVP paragon path. PVP boons, NEW PVP only powers, artifacts, etc that are separate from PVE powers, PVP enchantments, etc. PVP should have its own.

    Look at those games that have done it and those that are still struggling to find balance......

    Warframe - Separated PVE/PVP, much better game now

    Destiny 2 - Integrated PVE/PVP, they struggle with constant gun nerfs, adjusting PVE Supers and Abilities in the name of BALANCE

    Black Desert Online - Integrated PVE/PVP, they struggle with implementing PVE content because of their heavy PVP driven systems.

    World of Warcraft - Separated PVE/PVP, you have to make that choice in the beginning of the game.

    Tera - Separated PVE/PVP Servers, not the best but it was efficient


    Integrated PVE/PVP worlds struggles......




    There are games who have integrated/blended pve and pvp, and they where terrible
    There are games who have seprated pvp pve and they where terrible.
    And there game who's have either seprated or blended pvp and pve and they are great..

    Don't judge all games based on few played ones.

    Also, some games where intended to have blended pve and pvp system and even had it during closed beta.
    However due players requests pvp and pve where seprated. Not cuz game had problems with it.
    Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on

    When shouts of arogance and selfishness stops, you can hear the whispers of truth and honesty.

    ==================================================

    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.
  • kir4me8604#8436 kir4me8604 Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    Hey @hadestemplar#9918 thank you for taking the time to comment on my suggestion.

    You asked

    Now lets see few things what need to be clear.
    In your system, should pve gear/powers allowed in pvp ? Yes, no?

    The answer is no. If PVE gear can be used in PVP, what is the point of the Trade of Blades PVP building that homes PVP gear, artifacts, and items..... As it stands, when Star Rover Gear came out people were comparing that gear to regular PVE gear.... why? the gear set bonuses. For a while, the Star Rover's Gloves PVP gear was being wore by PVE players because the bonus: Serpentine could be used in PVE. When new gear comes out, it is being judge FIRST by the bonus then by STATS. No one cares if it is intentionally made for PVP or it says PVP. The system needs to enforce PVP only gear in PVP.

    I mentioned powers, artifacts and feats because of past and present nerfs to classes. If we had a PVP paragon path @leadsaid suggestion, the devs could create new powers only for PVP. Therefore if the Devs begin to rework the current class paragons in the future, they can be more intentional on how those powers are suppose to function in their appropriate setting. As it stands, we are a jumble mess of powers and feats that are constantly being re-balanced and re-balanced and re-balanced. Some powers have been changed so much or so drastically that all that is left is to remove it (Wizard Shield). However, if the PVP paragon path was enforced for PVP play, shield would never have been a problem. Entangled force, Grasp of Hadar, Paladin over-shields, Cleric heals, would have never been a problem.

    My favorite PVP moment was my first time doing Stronghold Siege. The open PVP map, the chance to ambush or cast my Control Wizard powers from a hill, or escape by jumping in the health draining water and watching my pursuer die because my self heals keep me alive long enough. Yea it wasn't fair always but it was fun. Knowing that riding a mount in the open was a trap, thinking about the classes that could be invisible or have an advantage if they attacked you from behind. That's what makes PVP fun for me. Not over powered groups camping nodes, spawn killing, unbeatable meat shield, and reflective damage builds. Queued PVP folded on itself. I would rather run Stronghold Siege any day than the PVP Queues.

    Oh and in Stronghold Siege even if you lost, it did not matter because everyone got rewards that were useful "Stronghold Siege Quest".

    You mentioned: Ice wind pass and Dvarven valley pvp areas. There is not pvp only, it's pvp and pve in same time, cuz there are NCP's in that area.

    You are flagged in PVP during those maps if you are standing in the red areas for too long. Is is really a challenge to enforce the PVP paragon path to participate in these areas?

    Looking at the Stream, these areas were not even thought about when discussing PVP changes until mentioned during this stream. It seemed like the focus was Queue PVP and how to enhance the Queue PVP experience. (PVP Stream 36:00 mins)

    Also who will hold/make sure that pvp gear would not be abused in pve? Or opposite?
    Thats a systems design question about what is possible. I would say the system should get creative. PVP kiosks or check points that you have to go through to participate.


    Not intending this wall of text, thank you again @""hadestemplar#9918" for this discussion =)
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 858 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    @kir4me8604#8436

    Well I would still debate about system you guys suggested, however this therad is CDP: pvp. It's not a place for us to dedbate about it.

    So I drop my anchor here.

    However I am open for debates either pm or in other threads..

    When shouts of arogance and selfishness stops, you can hear the whispers of truth and honesty.

    ==================================================

    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.
  • free2payfree2pay Member Posts: 284 Arc User
    I believe the most dangerous idea presented here would be to separate PvP balance from PvE.

    I have mentioned many times in the past : I believe PvP to be a invaluable tool for balancing PvE as I have seen too many times in other games that the strongest PvP class is usually usually also the strongest PvE class. Overpowered powers used in PvP are often the same powers that allow certain class to stomp and solo PvE content.

    I had also mentioned in the past that artificial penalties, for example tenacity, healing depression and PvP gears (just to handicap classes) in PvP should be removed as they do not truly reflect the true op-ness of certain classes. Certain class has too much survivability and dps and that often show up first in PvP and usually later in PvE. Such red flags could have been caught much earlier and its spillover effect into PvE prevented had PvP been balanced first.

    It was also mentioned in recent dev stream that the best PvE gears should not be made available as reward for PvP as that is deemed to be forcing PvP onto players who do not usually enjoy PvP. I believe that should be player's choice whether one wants to pursue PvE gears through PvE route or PvP route. Beside that also doesn't address why PvP is so unfun for new players or PvE players in general and that's primarily due to class imbalance + lack of item level bracket pvp queue, which had been mostly ignored in the past. In fact exposing that many players on the class imbalance in PvP should ideally get the most op class nerfed faster as you now get a much broader consensus from large player base rather than from the vocal minority.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User

    @thefiresidecat I remeber when you use to PVP consistantly, and use to run PVE content as well. Now talking about the toxic nature of chat, that is just human nature, you get that in all pvp games. There is nothing new there, however I still believe that when the PVE gears became best in slot for PVP, that in itself started a downward spiral, people would hunt for days just to get the manticore main hood because it helped do major damage in PVP as an example. the separation of PVE gear from PVP would start to balance out PVP. That being said, more options of the types of game modes, maps , and yes maybe different abilities for the classes in general would help.

    you couldn't possibly remember that because I have never pvp'd constantly in this game. i used to do a bit of stronghold siege for stronghold coffer but that was it maybe 20 or 30 times in my entire neverwinter career. other than that mode .. I've probably done maybe 20 total games of pvp (and that's probably an overestimation.) and are you pc or xbox because i've not even done a single pvp game on pc.


    I do pvp a few hours a day. but not in this game. it's generally cod blackout. sometimes halo or destiny. I've seen a lot of toxic in various pvp games and honestly it is the worst in this game. I don't know why but somehow this brand of pvp brings out the worst in people.

    I gotta ask, you say this community is abnormally toxic compared to other games, but you also said you've only done max 20 or 30 dom/GG PVP matches on neverwinter and max 30 siege matches, probably not a great sample size. Toxicity is a thing, its present in all PVP games but I've also heard people claim the opposite of what you say and that NW is less toxic than the other PVP games they played. Though I do agree that PVP toxicity is at a height right now in NW and that new and casual PVP players haven't had it worse in this game that I can remember.

    Its also worth pointing out that the current version of PVP in this game does have some flaws with it that are causing increased player stress and frustration for all PVP demographics, which this thread has brought up and these things can be fixed or the severity of these issues reduced. Some people cope with frustration better than others and improving PVP will reduce some of these sources of stress, leading to less toxicity from the top and happier PVP players in all demographics.
    It's a pretty big sample size if every time you do it, you encounter HAMSTER holes.
    I'm similar in how my PvP has gone.
    There's no way on Earth I'm sticking around 20 or 30 times to see if the numbers eventually balance out, if the first 15 to 20 were an abominable experience.

    I don't know about PvP in other games. I don't care about those other games, because I don't play them.
    Saying that Neverwinter PvP is less toxic than AN Other game as a way to make it sound better, only makes me think "Christ, if it's worse than the mess on NWO, I'm certainly never playing that other game."
  • free2payfree2pay Member Posts: 284 Arc User
    On the topic on PvP queue, I'll repeat what I had mentioned in the past. PvP queue should be composed of the following tiers:
    Tier 1: premade of 5
    Tier 2: premade of 4 + 1 solo
    Tier 3: premade of 3 + premade of 2
    Tier 4: premade of 3 + 2 solo
    Tier 5: 2 premade of 2 + 1 solo
    Tier 6: premade of 2 + 3 solo
    Tier 7: All 5 solo
    Group in each tier should only face opposing group of their own tier +1 to -1. For example groups from tier 1 will get to fight groups from either tier 1 to 2. Groups from tier 4 will get to fight either groups from tier 3 to 5. Tier 1 will never ever fight Tier 7, i.e. a premade of 5 should never get to fight a group composing of all solo players. Even if current pvp queue only have 10 players, but one group from tier 1 and another from tier 7, the queue should never pop.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,247 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    I mostly think PvP needs to find a way, to move toward SOLO Queues for Domination & Gauntlgrym. Or find other methods so Team or Q Groups don't indicate which side you'll be on, only that you'll be included into the same match.

    I'd welcome a focus more on complete premades in Strongholds, more if they also offered a 10v10 option.

    My top 3 would be:
    1. Better rewards per match and milestone rewards.
    2. Campaign progression by playing PvP.
    3. Some type of tier system implemented to have players fight others similar to their level/skill.

    I think 3 is key to my argument about the great imbalance often on PvP TEAMs.
    Post edited by strathkin on
  • trgluestickztrgluestickz Member Posts: 1,011 Arc User
    edited March 2020

    Truly, I just fear the nerfs and changes made to PVE powers, artifacts, abilites, feats, etc that are coming as a result of how it PVP currently is. A new map, a new season, queue changes even new rewards does not address PVP problems.

    The Paladin Sigil is a very useful artifact in PVE. Reducing the healing for PVP purposes will render this artifact useless in PVE.

    I watched the PVP stream and it was said that they can change the functionality of powers and artifacts so that they have a different effect in PVP and PVE. If this was so, then why did the Wizard encounter power Shield get reduced to a horrible "shield equal to 30% of your maximum hitpoints"? We are not tanks. We do not sit on 700K hitpoints. I saw this change and smh. All the new wizards that do not have a Barkshield could used Shield to help absorb damage in dungeons, levels, mobs etc. now will have to remain squishy because of how this power was played in PVP. The wizard's encounter power Shield is an ineffective encounter power now in PVE. The wizard daze, stun powers have been reduced or mitigated so they do little to no damage.

    I really want to post the reality of the wizard class in this post but just know this class is not a mage class. Can it do high damage, (with % based damage gear) Yes. Is it a mage class with powerful spells, unique abilites, and fun mechanics? No.

    4 At-Wills
    only 1 (Ray of Frost) is useful

    10 Encounters
    only 3 (Ray of Enfeeblement, Disintegrate, and Imprisonment) are useful

    5 Dailies
    only 1 (Arcane Empowerment) is useful

    8 Class Features
    only 1 (Storm Spell) is useful

    10 Feats
    only 1 (Spell Twisting) is useful

    So out of 37 choices, I know for sure these 7 will be at some point and time in a wizard's build. This is not a wizard.

    The devs are able to change a power or item's function in PVP without changing it in PVE, they didn't lie about that and they have done exactly that for some items in this game already. They also explained on that same stream that they prefer to modify the item/power for both PVE and PVP when possible instead of doing separate adjustments for PVP and PVE because they view separate adjustments as a pandora's box of sorts.

    To be clear, I don't agree with their fear of doing separate adjustments for PVE and PVP since the separated adjustments should already be standard in some way instead of viewed as some exception list they have to keep adding to. That, and their hesitation leads to items/powers that really need adjustments receiving no adjustments at all for very long periods of time if ever, a good example being sigil of the paladin. When items/powers do finally get needed adjustments, it is usually an adjustment for both gamemodes, which is more likely to make that item/power crappy in both PVP and PVE or fail to fix the issue it was trying to solve.

    It is also worth mentioning that adjustments often have more nuanced outcomes than just what I stated above and sometimes changing an item/power for both gamemodes will turn out to be the better course of action. In the case of shield getting nerfed, it is a little bit more nuanced. How it worked in both gamemodes before the nerf was kinda broken but it would need to be made stronger in PVE than it currently is in PVP in order to be useful for anything in PVE, and even then your best bet at getting more people to use it would be to change it into a completely different power that isn't oriented towards self defense.

    I agree that old shield was useful in PVE for some scenarios and new shield probably isn't useful in PVE, but its also worth pointing out that wizards aren't supposed to be tanky and they are currently one of the most desirable classes in PVE since they are the best damage dealer and ranged. 
    Old shield in endgame content wasn't used much because wizard's main desirable strength is their damage, but even in endgame content, old shield made it possible to make wizards almost as tanky as a real tank, which was a little bit broken.
    I have heard that wizards that haven't reached endgame did use old shield but I also doubt this is a real need.

    The shield nerf in PVP actually didn't destroy the power for PVP like I had previously thought it would. New shield turned out to be surprisingly good in 1vs1 fights. 
    Its viability in team fights remains to be seen but my guess is this power is now a 1vs1 only power.
    Post edited by trgluestickz on
    --
    PVP Rogue,
    --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
    Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
    Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
    Full Gaming Name: Gluestickz The Gap Closer
    Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
    Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
    Platform: PC
  • dyukillerdyukiller Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    PvP Rewards and Leaderboard
    Feedback Overview
    This feedback describes the state of PvP.
    Feedback Goal
    explain why pvp should be a separate server/ deleted from game.
    Feedback Functionality
    PVE gonna get better.


    We know that a lot of skills powers, mounts and mount bonuses, companions, artfacts well everything in game in some point gona be reworked/ nerfed cuz it is too strong in pvp, balancing game that have pve and pvp at same server is a eternal struggle,
    the reason is very, very simple: NPC DONT COMPLAIN!
    Look, i look around this poor ppl, 2 maybe 3 guys on a lv260 aliance with i dont know around a thousand players, spamming on chat, pls queue solo dom constantly, so whats the point?
    i mean just move to an aside sever, but it gonna cost us alot, to only few players you could say...so just delete it.

    pvp in neverwinter is a joke, extreme, pls accept that, EXTREME limited and boring stuff.

    all this changes and complining only because a really small part of the players want to kill each other, well then, just create a challenge to battle, and let them fight even in protector enclave a least the majority of neverwinter, read PVE players could make fun of them while whatching.


This discussion has been closed.